76: Vera Ignjatovic - Olympic Stardom to a Career in Medical Research

In today's episode, Ryan speaks to Vera Ignjstovic, a former handballer representing Australia at the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. Negotiating her way into being a goalie in a male-dominated football team's inner childhood, Vera unknowingly laid the groundwork for her Olympic career and her later scientific ventures. 

Fast forward 22 years, Vera is a seasoned Medical Researcher focusing on improving outcomes for children and is a groundbreaker in feet rarely achieved in the Medical Research realm; an internationally recognised expert in pediatrics, hematology, and proteomics. She is the Assistant Director for Translational Research at the Johns Hopkins All Children's Institute for Clinical and Translational Research and Professor, Department of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University.

Tune in to learn more about:

- How Vera put herself out to a male-dominated game till she was given the role of a goalie
- The resurgence of handball in her life after they relocated to Australia from Serbia
- How they navigated playing handball in the era it was an amateur sport
- What she had to delay or eliminate to find a balance between the Olympics and her Ph.D.
- The unspoken anticlimax when one is not a professional athlete
- Vera's bold decision to walk away from her first professional opportunity in Denmark opting instead to try her luck  as a scientist
- Landing her first technical job based on an interview skewed towards her Olympic exploits
- Pearls of wisdom from her amazing journey and multiple transitions
… and so much more! 

Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out

www.2ndwind.io  

Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/professor-vera-ignjatovic 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

you know happening at the moment. I mean, I was someone that always interested in kind of playing sports, even from a very young age and a long time ago, when I was growing up, girls were doing certain things and then boys were doing certain things and I really wanted to play football or soccer, but let's call it football and the only way to do it was to play with the boys. I remember hassling the boys and saying I want to play, I want to play, and they kept kind of just trying to ignore me and just go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then eventually someone said oh, okay, you can play with us, but the only way that you can do it is to be in the goal, because no one usually wants to be the goalkeeper. Usually people avoid it. Usually people want to kind of be, I guess, striker or something like that. But I thought, okay, fine, if this is my way in, then I'll do it.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Hi, I'm Ryan God Salvers and welcome to a second wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after the sport. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Vera, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Thank you, Ryan. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:27

I often look forward to the conversations I have in this podcast series, and I really love your sporting backdrop and how quickly you moved from recreational to Olympic hero on in home turf, and so I look forward to talking about that. But, in addition, the various transitions that you've had to go through in your life, I think are also going to be really interesting for those listening as well. So I'm looking forward to the conversation and letting you talk.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Yeah, likewise, and very much look forward to this chat and so.

Speaker 2: 1:59

I guess starting from where it's at, handball is sort of the sport that you are best known for. It's a sport that I think many people, certainly outside of Europe, are not familiar with it. Do you often find when you say you play handball, people aren't quite sure what you're talking about?

Speaker 1: 2:14

People always think that they know what I'm talking about and then they think that it's hitting the ball against the wall. That's what they think it is like in what kids do at school or something like that. And they're like, oh, we didn't know, this was an Olympic sport. And then I always have to kind of go, no, no, no, that, not that handball. It's actually kind of like water polo, but on land. That's how I would describe it.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Fast context sport. It's a very interesting sport because it's an only the only sport where in some countries, women get paid more than men to play the same sport. It is played pretty much in every single country in the world. It's played on every continent to different degrees, but every continent. You have handball on every continent and it's just a bit of a difference as to, you know, whether it's Australia, where not so many people play it, or it's in some countries. You see kids on the street playing handball quite frequently. So yeah, it is an Olympic sport. It has been an Olympic sport since 1972. It's a good sport. I love it. I'm biased, but I love it.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Bias is good. We can always, as long as we can, talk about it. Bias is a good thing sometimes, so it's all right. Yeah, coming on to that bias, and actually it's quite interesting because I was speaking to someone this morning saying how we were going to be having this conversation and when I spoke about handball, it didn't even occur to me they were thinking about the children's game in playground. When they said, oh, I didn't even know, handball was an Olympic sport. And now you've got me thinking are they thinking about the playground?

Speaker 1: 3:44

Yes, most likely.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Yeah, I'm going to have to check that out as soon as we finish, but that's funny. So tell me and perhaps it will help by talking a bit more about that backstory when did you first start playing handball?

Speaker 1: 3:57

Yeah, well, that's a really good question and it's kind of quite relevant with the footwork cup, you know, happening at the moment. I mean, I was someone that always interested in kind of playing sports, even from a very young age and a long time ago, when I was growing up, girls were doing certain things and then boys were doing certain things and I really wanted to play football or soccer, but let's call it football, and the only way to do it was to play with the boys. I remember hassling the boys and saying I want to play, I want to play, and they kept kind of just trying to ignore me and just go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then eventually someone said, oh, okay, you can play with us, but the only way that you can do it is to be in the goal, because no one usually wants to be the goalkeeper. Usually people avoid it, Usually people want to kind of be, I guess, striker or something like that. But I thought, Okay, fine, if this is my way in, then I'll do it.

Speaker 1: 4:51

And what it allowed me to do was, from a very young age, to get to lose my fear of, you know, being hit by the ball, and that in handball, if you know the sport, or once you see it on YouTube or something, you will understand why that's important. Because goalkeeping in handball is all about actually getting the ball to hit you, not to try and catch it or whatever. It's actually trying to just be between the goal and the ball coming at a very fast speed at you. So that's where the goalkeeping part started. And then you know, I grew up. At least a part of my kind of youth was spent in Serbia. That's where I was born, and in Serbia in the school system. It's very interesting because there are different sports that are played in different years of primary school. So one year is dedicated to volleyball, one year is dedicated to basketball, one year so it's a whole school year that's dedicated to you. Have a sport.

Speaker 2: 5:50

That's quite fascinating, yeah, in itself.

Speaker 1: 5:52

Oh for sure. And that's why Serbia, I think, is very good at team sports, because from a very young age, you know, there's a very big focus on particular sport for the whole year. And that's why I can say I'm relatively good at many different sports, Because I think I had that basis from the start, and when I was 12 years old that's when we were playing handball at school I was goalkeeping for my school. That's kind of started really.

Speaker 2: 6:18

So that's the origin of the whole thing, yeah you know, I guess that leads us nicely to possibly one of the first transitions that you and family had to go through, because here we are talking about you in Serbia and you know the crux of the transition and activity occurs in Australia. So when did that family transition occur and what was that experience like for you?

Speaker 1: 6:38

So that transition that happened when I was 13 years old and it was, I guess my parents decided to that they had an opportunity potentially to provide a better future for myself and for my brother and it was really interesting because you know, this is we're not talking about that Well, it is long ago for some people, but we're talking at a time where, you know, they were typing letters on a typewriter and sending them to embassies. So they sent a letter to the Canadian Embassy, they sent a letter to the Australian Embassy and six months later we had a visa for Australia. So you know, that transition, it was the four of us mom, dad and my brother and I and I thought it was okay. I remember that time as kind of being an adventure. This whole Australia thing was like kangaroos and koalas and so on, and to me it was really an adventure. The only part that I hated was that our dad made my brother and I listened to BBC records of English to learn English. For you know, a couple of months leading up to us.

Speaker 1: 7:40

And you can imagine, somewhere in Europe this is, like you know, we're talking about June, july and we had to spend two hours a day learning English by listening to BBC records, which is, I mean, british English, proper British compared to the English spoken in Australia. You know, you can imagine we couldn't understand the thing when we landed, like we had no idea.

Speaker 2: 8:03

That is very true. Same basis of a language, but sounds quite different, as once you land, I suppose.

Speaker 1: 8:09

Yeah, for sure, yeah. And then for me that transition was okay and I mean I didn't know that people in Australia played handball and I just got into playing basketball just locally, just having fun with basketball and meeting friends and so on. So it was okay for me. I remember that time is not a particularly difficult time and I guess what helped me was that I am good at learning, or I was at that time good at learning languages, and I picked up English very quickly. I mean, people in Australia are very kind of, I guess, open to an understanding to people learning English, and I didn't find any challenges in terms of people kind of laughing or anything. If anything, people are very, very supportive and yeah, I found it, I didn't have any challenges really.

Speaker 2: 9:02

That's great, and it's interesting how you went into basketball. You didn't automatically find or put move into handball either. You know, it sounded like just a lovely timer. A great journey for you.

Speaker 1: 9:12

Yeah, not understanding the language. I guess it is. It must have been tough, but I don't remember it as being super tough. And you know we had in a local school we had English as a second language as a subject, which really was helpful, you know, with that particular focus on learning the English language. And you know there was a group of students that were a part of that class, so I didn't feel like I was the only one that was kind of there. You know, there were a few other people that were in the same boat, I guess, or in the same shoes.

Speaker 2: 9:42

And so for you. Then when did you learn? In a new country? You've got schooling. I'm curious to understand how important was schooling and academic prowess for you, and perhaps more, not just you, but your family.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah, well, it was. School has always been important and I guess that, even before we arrived in Australia, my mom was always, you know, she was the one that was always kind of making sure that we were studying, and and I guess her philosophy was, you know, I will put your only job is to study and I will make sure that everything else is okay. I mean, of course we had some household chores and things we had to do, but mostly our responsibility was to study and, yes, it was, studying was very, very important, super important. So at the same time, I guess my parents realized that by being involved in sports, it provided us with an opportunity, myself and my brother, to learn the language quicker, to, you know, to be able to have some kind of a community that we were a part of, which was super helpful and, yeah, just kind of a way to kind of get us out of the house because we didn't know anyone really, but that was a really good, good way to kind of meet people.

Speaker 2: 10:53

So how did humble come back into your life?

Speaker 1: 10:55

Yeah, so, literally, a friend of mine that I was playing basketball with just told me one day that she had heard that in Melbourne there was a place where they were playing handball. And I remember thinking, oh whoa, where did that come from? I just almost forgot about handball. So, yes, so we went to. Two of us went to this. This is in Melbourne in a suburb called Calton. The place is still there, it's called Calton Box. It looks a little bit different now.

Speaker 1: 11:23

But yeah, we went to a training session and we were accepted immediately.

Speaker 1: 11:28

We kind of started training with our local, with a local team there, and then, kind of fate happened, does its own thing, which was literally, you know, like in the movies, the.

Speaker 1: 11:39

I didn't tell anyone that I was a goalkeeper, I was kind of playing in the, in the field, I guess, and and then the goalkeeper rolled her ankle and then, as it happens, no one wants to go into the goals and I basically said, look, I can go kick. So I went to the goals and the rest is really history. So, kind of literally, from that moment, what happened was that two weeks later I was in an Australian handball team camp as walkie for number five. Yeah, I was invited to train with the Australian team, with the national team, and it was just a bit kind of mad and I guess that it look, it reflects the fact that I guess handball is a small sport in Australia and particularly, you know, goalkeepers, as I said, that they're really hard to come by, and I think that someone saw something in me and I guess that you know. Next thing, I knew I was training with Australian team, which was just completely mind blowing.

Speaker 2: 12:37

I think it is mind blowing, and the speed that it happened is also quite mind blowing. What was your aspirations, or what were your aspirations from a handball perspective, as you got called up into the Australian team? Oh look nothing really.

Speaker 1: 12:54

I was just really kind of like a child in the candy shop, like just completely amazed, and I guess that I was just there to do whatever needed to be done. I didn't really think about anything other than the fact that this happened in 1996. And 1996. And the important part there is that in 1996, he was announced that Sydney was going to be hosting the Olympic Games in the year 2000. So this whole handball story started happening just after that announcement.

Speaker 1: 13:28

So when I was at the training camp I heard people you know saying Olympics, these Olympics, that I was thinking, what are they talking about? Not even connecting the fact that the Olympics was going to be in Sydney, australia, as the host country would be, would be having a team, or had an opportunity to have a team, a handball team, without the need to qualify, so kind of like a golden ticket, so that's so. That's when I started thinking, oh, wow, this, this could actually be big. And for me, I remember that in the time leading up to 1996, so probably around 1991, 1992, there were, there were Commonwealth Games, that happened, and I remember watching, and I remember watching the Australian swim team and thinking, oh, my God, this is amazing, how cool would it be to represent your country Like this is.

Speaker 1: 14:27

You know, I was kind of sitting there envious of these people that were representing their country, not even thinking that I would ever get a chance to represent my country like no chance at all. But when it all kind of unfolded, that's when it was really, that's when it became clear that, hang on, this could happen. But but still, you have to remember this is four years before the actual and it'll be so. It's a long, long time in between.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Yeah. So what were you doing at this time? So you know was a leading question. I admit how professional was handball at that time for you know, for the country.

Speaker 1: 15:09

It was not professional, it was an amateur sport. It still is and yeah, it is. I mean playing handball in Australia and playing handball for Australia, you know we were always the underdogs and still very much, still very much the case, because it's yeah, it's an amateur sport and you know we were facing countries that play the sport professionally, and I mean our only, I guess the easiest opponent that we had was New Zealand, and then everybody else. We could beat New Zealand, but everybody else, just, you know, just we kept losing. And that was another interesting thing was that he just taught me that, you know, it doesn't matter, it's all about participating, I guess. And yeah, and at the time, just going back to your question, sorry, I was wondering, so at that time I was studying at university and yeah, and it became apparent that you know, if I'm going to be a part of this journey, that it was going to take some time, from my schedule, you know, we had four handball trainings, one gym session a week and then we were playing games mostly on the weekends.

Speaker 1: 16:32

There was quite a lot of travel involved. So our first trip, I remember going to New Zealand, my first game where I represented Australia, was in New Zealand in 1997. And then from New Zealand the same year we went to Slovenia. We played in Slovenia in 98, we traveled to Turkey, we traveled to Germany. We were traveling quite a lot. So I was very fortunate that I was doing well. First of all I was doing my undergraduate studies, but then I started my PhD and I really have always been blessed to. You know, I've always worked with really amazing people, and I mean my PhD supervisor. He basically just gave me the freedom to organise myself in whatever way I needed to do so to be to enable me to travel.

Speaker 2: 17:26

I mean, I'm curious mentally how did you balance that shift between you know a PhD and being on this Olympic chasing, this Olympic journey?

Speaker 1: 17:37

Mentally, I don't know. I think I'm just very task oriented person. So, you know, I kind of just do it. I can't really explain it, but I just, if I know that there is something for me to do, I just kind of sit down and organise myself and I block a lot of things out. I mean I recently relocated to my family, to the States and people were saying, oh, it's going to be so hard and so on, and look, it's not easy. But at the same time I just kind of go, okay, this is what needs to be done, let's just do it.

Speaker 1: 18:16

So I guess that by having people, I mean I had a lot of support. I had a lot of support from my family, from my friends, from, you know, the, the, my immediate PhD supervisor and the lecturers at the university, so so there was a lot of. I guess that, with that support, it just enabled me to kind of make things happen. And, and mentally, I guess that, because the two things are so different, it's almost like I would train and then I would set up a series of experiments. I would go and do the experiments, get the data, and the way that I did it was that I set up the experiments to happen when we didn't travel, so that I would get the data back in time for when we traveled. So when we were traveling, I was analyzing the data. So this is kind of the trend that I, that I that I managed to do and to set up.

Speaker 1: 19:12

And another thing to mention that's really important is that I was very fortunate in that I had a PhD stipend. It wasn't a huge amount of money, but I was living with my parents and that money allowed me to to actually contribute to the travel, because at the time we didn't have funding from the Olympic Committee or anything like that. People were paying out of their own pocket for the travel. So most of it was out of our own pocket. Some things were supported, but a lot of things weren't.

Speaker 1: 19:48

So, yeah, so so people, a lot of people, were in a much worse position than me because they had, you know, full-time jobs. They couldn't just take time off. Some people had to quit their jobs in order to be able to travel, because you know we would go to Europe for, you know, a couple of weeks at a time. And you know, when we played the first, the first serious kind of competition that we played was the World Championships in 1999. And that took I think we had six weeks in total that we were there. So you know, you can't just take six weeks, kind of weirdly nearly.

Speaker 2: 20:25

I suppose you know you're right. For many that struggle to find the balance between work and chasing that Olympic dream, it means giving up a lot, or passing upon a lot as well. What do you think you had to, I guess, delay or eliminate from your life in order for you to follow that journey?

Speaker 1: 20:50

Yes. So a lot of the, I guess, the opportunities with friends. You know, I the way for me to catch up with friends was often if they came to watch a game of handball and then we would hang out afterwards, or something like that, during the week it was really hard. I mean, we had trainings every Friday evening and we had games on. Well, we had trainings on Friday evening. I remember Saturdays, I think, we also had trainings. So Saturday might have been a day off, but then on Sunday we had games. So you know, friday night, oh yeah, maybe we could go out on Friday night, but that would be after a really hard training, and then Saturday night it was very difficult to go out knowing that we had games on Sunday.

Speaker 1: 21:39

So you know, things like that is, I had to pass up on a lot of the kind of adventures that my friends had, but I guess that was just that was just how it was. Oh yeah, I would go to, I would attend a party, for example, and be there for a little bit, and then I would have to go home early or something like that. So I think those were the main sacrifices in that you know and you hear a lot of. I mean, this is completely different level, but you hear a lot of you know the professional athletes talking about missing out on kind of not childhood, but they kind of adolescent or early adulthood because of the dedication to the sport. So I think that that's kind of the main, the main loss, let's call it if we had to think of a loss.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Well, when you think back to the time, did it feel like a sacrifice? Do you specifically remember saying, oh gosh, I wish I could go and do that, but I can't never mind.

Speaker 1: 22:42

No, not really, because handball provided me also with a community that you know. We were all kind of very close, we did a lot of things together and I didn't feel like I was missing out. In fact, I felt like it provided me the opportunity to meet more people. There were people from many different countries playing handball in Australia, so lots of different experiences people from Sweden and Norway and Denmark and Germany and what other countries we had. We had the Balkan countries, all kinds of countries, so even from Brazil and so on. So that was really an amazing experience.

Speaker 1: 23:33

I love it and I mean I always say you know, because people comment on my accent and even though I've been in Australia for over 30 years, people always ask me about my accent and I always say my accent is there because of handball, because of being exposed to so many people from different, I guess, nationalities, of different countries and so on, whereas, you know, my brother is only one year younger than me, 15 months younger than me. He doesn't have an accent, he speaks like an Aussie and he wasn't. He didn't have that opportunity. He spent more time with Aussies, whereas I spent more time, yeah, definitely with Aussies, for sure, but there was a whole mix of people in that handball community. So that's why I still have an accent.

Speaker 2: 24:20

That is fascinating. I wish your brother was there. He was there right now and could just come on and just speak just for a moment to tell the difference. I think that's great. Yeah, we've got my. So my, my sons essentially, my wife and I both have British accents and she, you know, our sons were born overseas. They're born in Hong Kong and since we moved to Australia and we are, it's like a social experiment to understand which of the three, who's going to have the who will keep a British accent, who's going to adopt an Australian accent. And you know, it's well, we're just, we just switch on, we just watch and see what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 25:05

Well, it's fun. I think it's really fun how, how language is affected, I guess, by what you are exposed to, but by the environment. It really is. I really, I really truly believe it is.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Yeah, what's interesting, what I draw from the story you've just you've just mentioned there is for me, sport has been a sort of passport to the world. It's helped me to travel and indeed immerse myself in in different cultures. What, what you've described there, which is, I guess, a side of I've never really thought of, is, even by being in a country Australia in this example that it, sport, welcomes diversity. It welcomes this sort of multicultural approach, you know, through an enjoyment of the game.

Speaker 1: 25:54

Yeah, oh, definitely, and I mean, and also, when you speak of diversity, I mean what? What? What I want to mention is the fact that I, I am LGBTQI, I'm a member of the LGBTQI population, I am gay and you know, for for me, handball really allowed me to be myself. This was the first opportunity because I knew I was different. I tried to have conversations with my mom. She kind of dismissed it as a phase and that phase like I was waiting 10 years later, when is this phase going to pass? And it never did. And you know, then handball really allowed me to really just be me. It gave me that opportunity to to just be me. It was very welcoming.

Speaker 1: 26:41

And I mean, I was reading an article today about you know how many of the material players are a member. I mean, are you know I guess members are, you know are are a part of the LGBTQI community? And there are quite a few and and it was similar in the in the handball community and and you know a lot of it I guess has to do with, kind of the like, bringing the light together. So I think that you know, people find their family where it kind of where, where the love is let's put it that way when the family, where that feeling of, of freedom is. And and that's what what handball brought me, that feeling of freedom where, you know, my parents weren't really understanding. They liked to think that they were, but they weren't. You know, coming from from Serbia, where, you know, this was never discussed ever. It was kind of like no one spoke about it at all.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Handball just allowed me to be me. So that's why I love spending time like you. You, I never thought, oh yeah, this is too much. It was never too much. It was always like, you know, I could just be me. Everyone was just themselves and and and brought elements of their own culture or elements of their own, I guess, diversity to, to the, to the plate, to the, to the, to the team, and that's why it was really wonderful. I think it really yeah, fascinating.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Thank you, thanks for sharing. What I hear and I'm just thinking out loud in many respects is do you know, as long as we're good on the court, we kind of don't really care what the background is. You know what your position is. Are you a good goalkeeper? You are great, be a good goalkeeper. I don't mind what you do, you know, respectful for everybody, but be a good goalkeeper first.

Speaker 1: 28:32

For sure. Well, that's, that's exactly what it was, and and and you know we had so. So you know people from all kinds of background. And then you know we had the people who were born in Australia, and you know they who for whom Hanbo was really new, whereas you know people that were not born in Australia were, most of them were exposed to Hanbo at some point in time early in their life, so they had an idea, they knew about Hanbo, whereas I guess the people that were born in Australia were exposed to Hanbo later, kind of a lot later, and then became a part of of of that community.

Speaker 1: 29:10

And it was really interesting because it was the, the Australian, the people that were born in Australia, that were kind of really bringing on this agenda about fitness and, you know, lifting weights and things like that. And then people that were not born in Australia brought that you know, deep kind of Hanbo knowledge of Hanbo and and the technical aspects of it. But it all joined together or gel together really well. So I think that, yeah, lots of diversity on all levels and just coming together. So it's kind of like a, you know, like a hodgepodge of everything just in, in, on, on, on one core.

Speaker 2: 29:48

That's really good. Now, I suppose, as we we talk about this and that focus, the diversity, the acceptance you had that you feel when you were in Hanbo and you were going through that journey. What has become clear, though, is it wasn't a full time sport. It wasn't a full time job for you. You mentioned you were doing your PhD at the time. What was what was that in what you're studying? How related was that to what you're doing on the core?

Speaker 1: 30:18

Completely unrelated. So. So my PhD was in in biochemistry and and the focus was on, you know, looking at a particular Chinese medicine preparation and and effect on. So it had a. We knew that it it caused weight loss. So it was associated the use of this, I guess, a combination. So it was a combination of eight different herbs, traditional herbs, that that that that resulted in weight loss, but we didn't know how.

Speaker 1: 30:48

So my PhD was trying to look at what is the active ingredient, you know, is there a particular herb that's kind of associated with this, with out of the mixture that's associated with a weight loss, you know? And then it was looking at the mechanism of what happened, you know, and and you know I discovered that it was essentially like the fat the loss from the or fat from the fat cells was enhanced by the use of this product. Let's not talk about, you know, I, I using kind of animal models to discover that, and you know you can edit this out if you want to, but you know I that was so. So that wasn't. You know that that was the focus on my PhD. So really kind of unrelated in a way, but I always knew I wanted to kind of be a scientist until until I was faced with a prospect of potentially playing handball a little bit more seriously after the Olympics. And I mean we can, I can talk about that, but we haven't gotten to the Olympics yet, so I don't know. We can talk about that.

Speaker 2: 31:58

We definitely will, I would say, I do think, at least the study that you were doing. Now, as a retired athlete, it is very interesting to understand which natural herbs will support weight loss and perhaps not the same build as I was before. So maybe we'll talk about that off camera, we'll come back to that. But coming along, you know we are talking about you having to balance this PhD and this journey towards the Olympics. You know, I think, the, that Olympic dream. How serious did it get for you. What had to change the closer you got to 2000 and the you know the opening ceremony, what had to change in your life in order to best prepare you for that experience?

Speaker 1: 32:41

Yeah. So I mean it's a great question. We were so the Australian team. A few things change, I guess.

Speaker 1: 32:47

In 1999, we played something known as the test event. So this was played in Sydney. We had Australia both on the men's and the women's side. We had four different teams, so Australia was one of the four teams on both. Then we had on the female side and on the male side there was a part of this test event. So we literally played a proper competition on the handball court that would be used for the Olympic games.

Speaker 1: 33:17

So that was the first time when I kind of thought, well, this could actually happen. I mean, the whole time you're training for it, but four years is such a long time you kind of don't know what will happen. And I mean I've seen people definitely get injured, people kind of drop off just because of different commitments and so on. And you know, they just were there and then they weren't there and new people were coming in and things were kind of changing a lot. And from that moment then I thought, okay, well, how can I increase my chances of making the Olympic team? And I mean I wasn't the only one thinking that way. And what had happened is that we were given a wild card to play at the World Championships in 1999. This is at the end of the year, so it was essentially December, january period, and the World Championships took place in Norway and Denmark. So we were playing in Norway, our group was in Norway, we were facing Norway. That was kind of quite insane and you know the games were televised on Norwegian TV. I mean, norway is crazy about handball, both men's and women's.

Speaker 1: 34:32

And then what we had decided about, eight of us from the Schoenig National Team decided that we would go to Denmark after the World Championships and we had all found, located clubs, local clubs that would take us. You know, they didn't pay us anything. We trained with them and we had all saved up a lot of money to spend a couple of months there training with the professionals, I guess, and enhancing our chances of making the Olympic team. And you know, we for myself, I ended up with two other players from the Australian team in Denmark in a place called Ohus it's the second biggest, I guess, city in Denmark and our savings were gone within probably I don't know a month of being there, very expensive to leave, we had to pay rent and all these kind of things.

Speaker 1: 35:29

And then we were literally carrying newspapers in the middle of winter on our bikes in the snow, running up and down delivering newspapers. But what this had done was that because we in Denmark, you know, people don't have the post boxes like in front of the apartment building and you can put the newspapers there, you had to run up inside the building to every single floor, every single door had a little kind of a slot and you would put the paper there. So you can imagine, you know, we are in like kind of feathered down jackets, winter snow, everywhere, running up and down. We were so fit, we were insanely, insanely fit and we all really got much better at handball.

Speaker 1: 36:16

I just remember that my skills, and I mean my capability, just exploded in those. We were there from December to May and the improvement was huge. And it was huge to the point that the same club where I trained and I trained kind of pro bono I trained for free, I guess, I wasn't paid, I was just there, I didn't play games, but I was training with the club that club offered me a contract after the Olympics. So, yeah, so that was. It was quite a significant improvement and everybody that had that experience all around Denmark. Really, you could see the improvement in players capabilities for sure.

Speaker 2: 37:07

That's a really big investment in financial, in time. You know for you. You know to make that, to make to give yourself the best opportunity at the Olympics, and you talk about it.

Speaker 1: 37:21

So I wasn't like I say I wasn't, it wasn't the only one, I wasn't the only one, so there were roughly there were about eight of us that did that.

Speaker 2: 37:28

It talks about the enormity of, I think, still to this day, what the Olympics can mean for somebody and that opportunity to play on that stage, to do something you love doing, selected for your country. But for you to move to Denmark, for you as a group to move there, which you know gives you that support. And yeah, what you describe having to go post newspapers through the letterbox and into every apartment, into every unit that to me that makes absolute sense. That's how it is in England. You know, these things aren't on the street for someone lazily to just place in. It's like no, no, if you're delivering, you're coming to my door and you're putting it in. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 38:06

Yes, exactly, yeah, oh it was. I was never that was such a great fitness regimen. And you know, I mean, and also, you know, going to Denmark, and going to Denmark in December, and I mean I remember the first training. So the trainings were three hours long, but not like three hours, well, actually two and a half hours long. So you would go, you would go in a certain kind of gear, go outside and run, so running the snow, run around the streets, couple of laps around the venue or whatever, and I just thought we were, almost all of us were almost dying. The three of us that were in the same club, we were like, oh my God, what is going on here? We thought we were fit. These women were completely different level, you know. And then you would go inside, get changed and then you would have a proper handball training. That was just the warmup.

Speaker 2: 39:01

Yeah, you know you, you you did it and it's interesting the way you spoke about it. You went to Denmark, you spent a few months there in the snow, you had to get another job, and you're talking about it. So, matter of fact, in a matter of fact manner. And so, as you're going through it, at the time, did you, to what extent did you question your sanity, you know, in terms of what you had given up and what you're balancing? Did you question your sanity? What was going through your mind as you were cycling through the snow?

Speaker 1: 39:36

What was going through my mind was we're not eating a lot of meat. Like you know, meat was very expensive. No, I was. I was kind of we were literally thinking how are we going to survive this? Like you know, this is really an expensive adventure and I guess that it was that's where my family came in and supported me as well, you know, so that I knew that there was that backup just in case, because by that time I had just handed in my thesis. I handed in my thesis just before that World Championship, so so I was literally done with my PhD and just waiting to hear back about the examination of my thesis. So I didn't have that stipend.

Speaker 1: 40:16

So it was tough, but I think that the focus was so much on that goal and knowing that the Olympics were kind of around the corner I mean, you're still talking about, you know, september, literally. So it's still like you know, nine, 10 months away, but but it felt close. Having spent, you know, three years, three and a half years or however long before that you know, training for it, you know we could see the finish line. Let's put it that way. We kind of, you know, really target, like focused on that and not really thinking about much.

Speaker 1: 40:55

I didn't. I never thought about, you know, giving up. It was more than I started really being worried about what if I get injured. That's, I just remember that. And I remember that as in, it would kind of come and go, the thought would come and go. So of course, you know, I was just on a on a you know regular kind of basis. I was just training, not thinking about things, but every now and then this thought would creep up and then as I saw people you know getting injured, then I thought, oh my God, what if I get injured?

Speaker 2: 41:25

You speak about that as a fear. How did that impact your training and your focus?

Speaker 1: 41:31

I mean it only impacted it from, I guess, a psychological point of view. You know it's still kind of white line fever as soon as you know I would step on the court. I didn't really think about that at all. It was more kind of being off the court thinking about oh, I hope that, you know, hope that I get there, I hope that I get there, I hope that I get there.

Speaker 1: 41:54

I mean, by that stage I was relatively confident that I would make the team, because the other two goalkeepers in the team so that didn't go overseas and you know they were a little bit older than me, and so on, and I felt like I was confident that I would make the team. It was almost like the only way that I wouldn't make it was if I got injured. I was really confident. I don't know. You kind of just train, I can't explain it. It's kind of like knowing, I don't know. I'm kind of thinking like it's almost like knowing, maybe that you know, when people know they have a genetic predisposition for something, you kind of like don't think about it on a regular basis. You know, I don't know, I don't think that you would think about it constantly, but every now and then this thing comes into. You know, it would just come like a little bug saying oh, you could get injured, you could get injured.

Speaker 2: 42:48

What did you do when that thought came into your mind? Sorry to interrupt in your thought there, but as that fear came in, don't get injured, don't get injured it flashes into your mind. What did you do to get rid of it?

Speaker 1: 42:59

I guess, just try and visualize. I visualized a lot. We spent a lot of time. We did have a sports psychologist that worked with us and I guess that I spent a lot of time visualizing myself being there, being at the Olympics. That really kind of helped. It was just like I was really.

Speaker 1: 43:21

I came to a point after doing it for a while that I could really picture and the good thing was that I knew what the venue looked like because we had tested it, we had the test event, so I knew what the venue looked like. So I just pictured myself at the venue playing a game at the venue and I imagined the crowd, because the test event we didn't really have that many people watching it, so I just imagined the people. I imagined the anthem playing at the start of the game. I just imagined all of that and that really helped to relax me and to reconnect with. Okay, there's nothing really that I can do. I just have to continue giving my best and let's see what happens.

Speaker 1: 44:07

But the field was there and I'm very curious If you ask different people about that. It is there because, even with the material of this team, there's a player. I think her name is Chloe Lagazzo. I can't remember exactly, but she just missed out, literally just got injured just before the World Cup and I mean, if you think about Sam Kerr, she didn't play the first two games. Things happened and I saw people being injured and knowing like they would have an ACL injury and it's like okay, boom, there goes, the Olympics it's done. So it was kind of there, it was present, but I tried to block it out a lot.

Speaker 2: 44:53

And I guess that ultimately and spoiler alert, you made it, you made the team, you got to the Olympics. That visualization, I mean, what was that moment like for you when you did walk into the stadium and it wasn't test, it wasn't 30 people watching, it was the capacity. How did that feel?

Speaker 1: 45:12

Oh look, I can feel it like now. I can almost like I can feel goosebumps now. And you know, I remember I mean first, you know, turning up there, seeing you know all of the because the test at the test event, we didn't like all of the coloring, I guess, all of the how do you call it like the banners on the sidelines, like none of that was there, but then all of that was there. I mean even just getting the pass and walking into the Olympic village, all of that was amazing. And having just watched the material this morning, playing in the same stadium where the opening ceremony was, that was, I mean, the opening ceremony was just wow. That I know every single thing that happened. I can still feel it.

Speaker 1: 46:00

I just remember a lot of people cheering for us. You know, just as we walked as the team, as we were walking towards the stadium and then we had to go under the you know the stadium, literally like go under and then come out, and I just remember we were looking at each other, just screaming, just that we didn't know what to say. We were just like just screaming, just this pure adrenaline, just that there were no words, like we just didn't know even know what to say. It was like, oh my God, we're here, and there was a lot of screaming, like people were cheering, like the volunteers were cheering from the sidelines as we went through, and then we were just, yeah, just screaming at each other that no words were coming out. So it's just pure, just elation. And just coming out and just remember all these flashlights everywhere, just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and yeah, and I just thought this is the. I'm dreaming, like this is not real.

Speaker 1: 47:04

And then similar, you know, stepping onto the court, I kind of had this, I would say, kind of like a boxer. I try, you know, people talk about, people talk about these kind of personas that they have, you know, when they step on the court. And I think it's definitely definitely true. You know it's a you're a different person when you're in the court, and I mean you would know that for sure. You know you're kind of like you. Just I don't know whether you, you did it, but I certainly kind of thought like, okay, I'm here, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to like tear them apart or whatever, literally kind of like you know, even though it's not that kind of a sport, like it's not like boxing or something, but I would be like, okay, I would have this kind of confidence and yeah, and I guess that that going stepping onto the court and and just seeing all of the people there, for me I played a lot of.

Speaker 1: 48:01

I knew that my family was there, which was amazing, and I would always try and see where they were. But another thing was that a few of my really close friends didn't make it, but they still came to watch the games. So I I would, almost every single save that I made I would point to them, because to me it was really important, like it was it was, for in some of the situations it was really heartbreaking that they didn't make it, and for me it was like, okay, I'm playing for them, like I'm playing for the team, but I'm also playing for the people that didn't make it. And you know, my family was there, which was great, but I wasn't like playing for my family. Do you know what I mean? But I was, in a way, kind of channeling my friends that didn't make it who came to watch. Yeah, you, I don't know, I wasn't thinking about much other than trying to stop that ball.

Speaker 2: 48:56

I love the fact, those, the goosebumps, and looking at watching you talk about that, you can see that, how much it means to you today and I'm using the present tense on purpose, but you can see how much it means to you to this day and it helps then to to think how does one live life after such highs? What is that that moment like for you afterwards? Now, for you, you were, it was a, you know, there was this dual career, but there was this focus that you had and the PhD finished. After that Olympic experience, were you elated or deflated? You know what, what, what came?

Speaker 1: 49:34

next Talk about an anti-climax and no one prepared us for it. No one, no one prepared us for it. So you know it was. It was kind of like thinking about the goal, but what happens after? We just were not ready for it. And I mean, when people think about the Olympics people generally think about, you know, most of the athletes being professional, professional athletes, where it's actually not the case. There are many, many athletes who are not professional athletes that that go to the Olympic games and for professional athletes, you know, they just slot back into their, you know, regular season with a club or whatever.

Speaker 1: 50:12

And for us there was kind of nothing, like literally nothing. So I just remember, you know, from going from you know, four years of of most of my days being kind of organized. The trainings were happening so frequently that it was like, okay, trying to do the PhD and the trainings and not really thinking about much else. And then the four weeks that we were in the village that was really scheduled down to almost like a minute. You know, every day we had a schedule printed of when, when we had, when we were eating, when we were resting, when we were having physio, when we were training, when we were, whatever you know, having sessions with a coach in terms of just discussing tactics and things like that. So that was all you know. People were, you know, we had people washing our clothes. We were turning up to the, to the dining hall to eat. We didn't have to do dishes, we didn't have to think about going grocery shopping, you know. So all of those kinds of things. And then I went back home I was still living with my parents, but I remember they went to work and I was just there opening the fridge and going what am I going to eat? Like you know what's going on. And yeah, it was a really huge, huge anti-climax because it was kind of like, okay, what happens now? And I guess that for me it was.

Speaker 1: 51:37

I knew that I had a contract to go back and play in Denmark. So about a week after the Olympics I actually went to Denmark. And that's another story. You know, I went to Denmark to play handball professionally and I know deep in my heart, like I know, that I could have played handball professionally and I think that I would have been good. But I went there and, you know, two weeks later I was there on my own, this time not with my mates, with whom I shared the experience previously. Two weeks later I just gave up, like I came back to Australia, For whatever reason.

Speaker 1: 52:18

You know, I don't know exactly all of the combination of things, but I guess that I was lonely. I was. I mean, the weather in Denmark is prep at the best of times, not to really insult anyone, but it's not the best weather. It was raining, you know we're talking about. What are we talking about? October raining, cold, windy, yeah, and I guess that I felt super lonely and I just pulled a plug on that. I came back and also my mum was having some health problems, which was one of the reasons to go. I guess it just added to my list of reasons to go back home. So I went back and I started looking for a job as a scientist. You know, that was it. That was handball, almost done.

Speaker 2: 53:08

I'm just thinking, if I time box, that that's eight weeks, 12 weeks maybe, from getting into the Olympics, packing your bags to go to the Olympics, participating and joined, getting that high, leaving the Olympics, feeling down, getting on a plane to go and be a professional handball player and then coming back and then starting to look for a job.

Speaker 1: 53:31

I don't know that's. I really don't remember thinking much. I mean, I was. If there's anything that I kind of maybe regret in my life, it would be whether I should have just stayed there and stuck it out. But at the same time, you know, I am a medical researcher now. I love what I do, I absolutely love what I do. But at the same time, when I see a handball game on TV or when I have the pleasure to go to Europe and see it live, I always have this feeling of what, if you know what, if I could, I could have been there. It's not kind of a regret, but it's kind of like you know, sliding door moment. You know, what would it look like if that's the choice that I made, if I stayed there?

Speaker 2: 54:20

What would it have looked like? Where do you get to when you ask yourself that question?

Speaker 1: 54:24

Yeah, well, I think that I would have been playing handball professionally and that I could have made a living out of it. I am very confident of that. But at the same time, I know that all it takes is an injury and that is over. And for me it was also. Then, I guess I didn't really think about the future. I guess I was focused on the present moment and what I felt. I actioned what I felt at that time, rather than thinking more about kind of lasting and sticking it through. But I do. That's one of the things that I think about. You know that I will sometimes lie in bed and kind of imagine what that would have looked like, but not with some, not with a lot of sadness, more with kind of, I guess, trying to imagine what it would have looked like.

Speaker 2: 55:16

Quite right and look. Imagination is a powerful thing and sometimes it can. The good thing is it takes us to places we can suddenly enjoy it, and then we do sometimes come back to where we are, and but you mentioned there. So come back to where we are, meaning we come back to the present, and you were talking there about those decisions, thinking and thinking about where you are, which is, to be honest, actually a very healthy thing to do. How did you, you know? You came back into the country? How did you look for a job? What was your? What was your thinking? How did you do it?

Speaker 1: 55:50

Look, one of the things, because I was doing my PhD and normally people during their PhD, you know, they attend conferences, the network and so on. I didn't have that opportunity because I was so focused on handball. Every moment outside of the PhD was spent, you know, playing handball and I didn't attend conferences and I didn't, you know, focus on creating that network. It made it then a little bit harder to look for work. So it took me eight months. It took me to actually find a job, so of kind of active looking for a job. In the meantime we were running, you know, I was part of an organization that was doing handball clinics, because handball had all of a sudden become a little bit more popular because people couldn't get tickets to the Olympics. So one of the sports that the tickets were not sold out for was handball. So then people got to see handball for the first time and thought, oh my God, this is not that bad. And we had a couple of really young players who had played AFL when they were young, but then at the time there was not AFLW or whatever they're calling it now. So they kind of enjoyed that element of a contact sport, but then they had to stop because there was nothing and at a certain time I think it was when they were 12, there was nothing for them. It was like that Oskic or whatever they call it in the younger years and then it just stops, for girls at least. So we had, you know, we had, I remember one person who was 12 after the Olympics. She came to train with us because we had continued to play it, recreationally, you know, and she was 12. And the rest of us were, you know, the youngest person was probably like 25. She was so keen on handball she ended up actually making the Australian national team and she was an excellent player in the subsequent years. But you know, she that was an interesting story in that people started kind of playing handball a little bit more. But that kind of died out eventually.

Speaker 1: 57:51

But I mean, looking for work, it was just, it was tough, but the job that I eventually got, I can say a lot of it was because of handball, because of the training, because the whole interview was eight months after the Olympics. The whole interview was focused on the Olympics. I mean I was not asked the technical question, it was the whole time I was being asked about. Is it true that I don't know that this happened. Is it true that this, what about this? What about that? It was? The whole conversation was about the Olympics, and I mean, even to this day, you know, and it's it was 23 years ago, I mean it's a long time ago, but I get asked all kinds of questions and I guess that it just reflects the fact that it is. It's not.

Speaker 1: 58:40

I mean, a lot of people don't have an aspiration to go to the Olympic Games. Not everyone has an aspiration to go to the Olympic Games, but a lot of people are interested in finding out. What does it look like kind of on the inside? And yeah, and I mean yeah, I have to thank Hanbo and the and the fact that I made it to the Olympics for, for you know, getting me into my first, my first job, which ended up being my calling, let's put it that way. So I'm still in the field. So, yeah, I'm loving it.

Speaker 2: 59:13

Which is, I mean, and that's great. It's great You've, like you say, you've you managed to find that calling and you are certainly loving what you do. It is interesting. You talk about that interview process whereby so much of the conversation is is talk about you and your experience as an Olympian. Well, why do you think that was? Why do you think that was enough? Why, why? Why don't you think they still wanted to go in and really challenge you technically?

Speaker 1: 59:43

Yeah, you know I still have that advertisement. At that time, you know, the way to find work was to look at the age, the big, you know the age. That was massive newspaper and you know you would just look through at little ads. And I still have I cut out that advertisement. I have it. You know, I have a. I have it kind of framed in a little frame. It's really interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

And you know, they were looking for someone with certain experience and certain skills and I didn't have any of that. But I just kind of decided to apply and I and when I applied I thought I don't want to work in a hospital environment, especially children's hospital. I think it's a tough environment, I don't think it's for me. I'll apply anyway. And you know, I think that the the interest was definitely it wasn't just. I mean, what got me across the line was the fact that I was training for the Olympics and doing a PhD at the same time.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

So I, you know, had a really nice chat with the person who was my boss, who ended up employing me, and you know we had lots of conversations afterwards. You know we and we worked together for 21 years and and and he basically said that you know he he's thinking was if you know I am driven, I am kind of motivated, I clearly can manage time. You know all of these kinds of what people call soft skills that are not really soft, they are, I think, the most important skills. He had the vision. I mean he had the insight to go. Hang on, Vera can learn about hematology, she can learn about blood. If she's got all of these skills, she will learn the technical part. This is the part that's important and so so, almost like if you look at the advertisement, we might as well just cross it and he, he.

Speaker 1: 1:01:36

I showed the advertisement to him recently and he was like, oh my God, why did I write all these things? Like what's most important is that you know that drive, that you know passion for something, that you know proactive kind of spirit, you know the ability to, you know communicate and manage time. I mean those are kind of the and dry. You know that dry. Those are kind of the most important things. The technical, the technical stuff can be learned. Yeah, and you know he had that insight and he employed me and you know that's it. That's the rest is history.

Speaker 2: 1:02:11

So it became a medical research, so yeah, and so when you hire your teams now, do you? You know how open are you to that, the soft skills, as you said but how open are you to prioritizing those ahead of some of the more technical ones?

Speaker 1: 1:02:30

Oh, definitely, definitely. That is the most important thing for me, and I mean that when I think about, for example, supervising students. You know they have universities, have certain criteria and they say, oh, you have to have a score higher than whatever. And I always say to my students look, I didn't have the greatest scores, the greatest grades, that you need the greatest scores. It's all about you know, how much do you really kind of want something and so on.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

And you know, and it is a bit kind of, I guess, people say that all the time and some people say, oh, no, it's not about how much you wanted. And I keep saying, well, it is how much you wanted. Like it's almost. Everything is possible. You know, it depends how much you want it. And you know, and I definitely look at that more than you know, I don't look at what kind of grades someone had at university or all this kind of you know experience. It's a bonus if they have it. But some other skills are really much more important, because there are things that can be taught and some of those things can't really be taught there. I think that they're inherent, you know. I mean drive. A person either has it or they don't you know, for certain things, and I don't mean drive for everything in life, but drive for whatever they're doing at that time.

Speaker 2: 1:03:57

Yeah, very, very true. You know, I agree with you, those skills, often we talk about them needing, you know, can they be trained? Some of them you develop through experience and then finding out. Like you say, am I driven? Well, I'm probably driven on certain things, and it's how open and are you to find out what drives you, what energizes you and motivates you? And you know that's a challenge for many people.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

Yes, oh for sure, and you know it's. I always, I always say most of what we did, you know, in training was so repetitive and and it was all about, you know, training at the same level that we would play a game. And that's some of some of those philosophies you know I take into my work and I say, you know, we, this is like we need to train the way that we play, so we can't just say, okay, we're doing something now and then when we present that work, this is what it will look like. It's like no, no, no, let's just reach that level right up front.

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

And another thing is I heard tennis player called Gail Morfis. He was interviewed just overnight I can remember which tournament, but he was being asked something about you know what ranking he's, and so on, and and then he mentioned he said, look, we are not robots. He said we are the same as in professional athletes or elite athletes. He said we are the same as everyone else. It's just that we have. We have much more discipline. It's all about the discipline, you know. It's about how much discipline do you have? And I guess that you kind of have to be a little bit weird to kind of want to do the same thing over and over, and, over and over again, so many times you know, like the basketball players taking that you know shot from a certain position hundreds and thousands of times, of the tennis players you know hitting the forehand, I don't know however many million times you know. It's all these kind of things and it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. I think it's all about that kind of psychology and and and either people click with that or people don't, because if you think about elite sport, it's 90% of it. I would say it's repetition. So you know, yeah, if you're, if you're, mad and you like repeating things, then you do it. If you, you know, I think I don't know. For me there was always that joy and I guess that challenge in terms of seeing that progress, you know that small bits of incremental progress by repeating something over and over and just tweaking it a little bit and then seeing the results.

Speaker 1: 1:06:49

And and I guess that in in medical research, handball has helped a lot, and I mean the fact that we were the underdogs for all of that time pretty much has helped me, because in medical research, you know, we apply for funding and there's, you know, in Australia at the moment for major funding programs we're talking about, you know, less than 10% success rate. So most of the time you will be rejected. Or most of the time, you know, I have been rejected on funding applications and I guess that that underdog status and the fact that we lost most of the games that we played it was just about okay, well, you're in it, you have to be in it. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 1:07:35

You, you lose and you lose and you lose. But the only way to get the result is if you're actually there, if you're not going to throw your hat into the ring like you. You're just not there, so nothing's going to happen. You have to be there. So for me, I think that it has helped a lot to know that you can contribute. It doesn't matter, you have your losses and you have many, many losses, but there will be parts where where I can contribute and that's okay. I don't have to win every single battle. It's okay, a lot of it will be losses, but there's still. There are still learnings from that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:14

Just listening to you there reminds me of what you were saying earlier when I asked what was this? You know how comparable was your PhD to handball and you described it as them you know not being related and here, just in that moment, they are intrinsically related. They are almost in the same thing in that win ratio, that need for participation, that need for staying in the game, and you know that that. You know you spoke about the drive you actually spoke on. You know the confidence you had entering the field as a goalkeeper and you know needing that to drive you forward. All of that seems to come across for you as a medical professional as well.

Speaker 1: 1:08:59

It does that. You know that, that I think that persona element is almost, like you know, like stepping on the court. I see it as in in my work. You know I have to present presentations. You know public presentations are a part of my work and you know, sometimes it's a hundred people, sometimes it's a couple of hundred people, sometimes, you know, it's it depends, the number depends, and and I guess that the way that I see presentations is very much like stepping up, stepping out onto the court. I see it as a child. I absolutely love it. I used to hate it, but you know we practice again. You know we practice, you see results and you kind of go okay, this is cool and that persona that I would adopt on a handball court is. It's very similar, so very similar approach to the persona that I have now when I do public speaking, when I present my work and so on.

Speaker 2: 1:09:55

Vera, you warned me that you would talk and talk and talk, and I've warned you that I will talk and talk and talk as well, and I'm loving the conversation. I'm conscious we, you know, we should continue this, but maybe another time. But I, you know, I've just got to say thank you for, you know, sharing your story and sharing your perspective on, I guess, the many transitions you've had, you know, through your life. But then, you know, also for sharing some of these, your perspective on that will probably help athletes find their second wind, you know, once they leave the game or after the Olympics as well. So thank you for sharing today.

Speaker 1: 1:10:37

Not a problem. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been an absolute, absolute pleasure to talk to you, Ryan.

Speaker 2: 1:10:43

Thank you. Thank you for listening to the second wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.