81: Calum Giles - An Olympic Hockey Player's Insights on ADHD, Neurodiversity, and Life Beyond the Field

When Calum Giles, a double Olympic hockey player, steps into our studio, he brings with him a narrative that goes beyond the hockey field. His personal battles and victories over ADHD are as captivating as his athletic accomplishments. Understanding his journey helps us unravel the tight weave between neurodiversity and peak performance. Calum doesn't shy away from discussing the role of mentors in recognizing and nurturing the potential of young athletes, a perspective that's shaped his roles as director of junior coaching at Blackheart and Altamium’s Hockey Club and managing director of Stickwise Hockey Camps.

In this episode, Ryan and Calum discuss:
- The connection between neurodiversity and peak athletic performance through Calum's journey.
- The role of mentors in recognizing and nurturing the potential of young athletes.
-  How the schooling system impacts individuals with ADHD and their career paths, using Calum's academic journey as an example.
- Cognitive differences bring flair and creativity in sports, drawing parallels with the Dutch style of football.
- Calum's commitment to shaping a more inclusive and understanding approach to learning and coaching in education and sports.
- The rarely explored topic of life after sports, including financial challenges athletes face and the importance of aligning one's career with passions.
- Calum's personal story as a powerful reminder that success, in various forms, is achievable with hard work, fairness, and a commitment to one's true self.

Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io 

Links:

Website:http://www.stickwise.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calum-giles- 

Instagram:https://instagram.com/stickwise?igshid=

X: https://x.com/CalumGiles?s= 

Resources:

Atomic Habits: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299

Relentless: From Good to Great to Unstoppable by Tim Grover: https://www.amazon.com/Relentless-Unstoppable-Tim-S-Grover/dp/147671420 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I hated school. You know my first four years of school. They're okay because it's not that strict, it's not that driven, there's a constant change of activity and I was okay Middle school I did okay. But already you can see in my reports and it's unbelievable, you could take my reports at that age and my son's reports changed the name and they're identical. I mean it's so bizarre but they're all exceptionally bright, but doesn't concentrate, loses focus, facts, others etc, etc. When you take a young kid that age with ADHD and sit them down for hours, you're not going to get the best out of them and teachings come a long way. You know state schools it's very much a one size fits all. It has to work. I unfortunately didn't fit into that, you know. So I was okay in junior school but when I went to senior school it kind of went downhill almost straight away because I'm in the 98th percentile for problem solving, analyzing and communication.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Hi, I'm Ryan God-Salvers and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Today on the show we have Callum Giles, a double Olympic hockey player representing Team GB in the 1996 and 2000 Olympics. He stumbled upon the game of hockey as a young boy, six or seven years old. Growing up in the game as it gained professional status, he was hyper focused on scoring goals. Now, whilst he was diagnosed with ADHD in 1999, we will discuss how he has used his unique cognitive abilities to excel in sports and in coaching, and where he's making a significant impact as head of hockey at a school in the south of England and as managing director of stickwise hockey camps. Callum, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 2:15

It's absolutely my pleasure. It's great to have someone like yourself on the show. I'm looking forward to delving a little bit more into your well, I guess, your sporting story and sort of the impact that you're making today. I think it's going to be a good chat.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Likewise.

Speaker 2: 2:30

So look, callum, I'd love to know for those who are listening, who may not be familiar with your goal scoring feats tell us, what are you up to today? What's life like for you now?

Speaker 1: 2:40

I'm now currently head of hockey at Worth School, which is in Sussex, very close to Gatwick Airport, and I'm also director of junior coaching at Black Heath and Altaimum's Hockey Club, as well as running stickwise, which is basically a company that runs hockey camps for children during all the holidays.

Speaker 1: 3:00

I think the overriding reason why I feel like I'm good at my job and I've been successful is because growing up was difficult being neurodiverse, particularly when you don't know that you are and life was a real struggle when there were certain people along the way that made a difference, because they took the time and they saw me for who I was, rather than maybe the behaviours I was displaying. And I genuinely coach every single child with the perception in the back of my mind that I could be changing their lives, I could be taking them from the wrong side of the tracks, giving them that one moment. When they're older, they look back and think that was the moment where my life changed and I am where I am today because of it. So for me, yes, it's a job and it pays the bills, but it's much bigger than that.

Speaker 2: 3:47

That's brilliant to hear. And what's brilliant to hear about that really is the recognition of the impact that you can have because of the role you've got as well. It's initially our first and foremost as a coach or putting camps on for children, introducing to the game of hockey, but recognising the power that sport can have on an individual and the role those coaches have as well, I think that's I mean, that's just brilliant. As you go up through hockey, which we'll come to, did you find you had mentors or individuals who supported you in that way?

Speaker 1: 4:21

Yeah, and they can come from different places. People think a mentor is an older person, a coach, but honestly, growing up there was a guy that was only a year or two older than me and I went for my first Hampshire trial when I think I was 10 or 11 years old and I went with a guy called Russell Garcia. Russell went on to win an Olympic gold medal with Great Britain in the 88 Olympics. I think he turned 18 during that Olympics and he was a special talent growing up and I grew up with Russell and when I went to that first county Charles, very young I think I was three years young for the trial and I remember Russell just taking me under his wing and so he would have only been 13 himself and he was just those guys in the black shirts they play for Ferrum, the guys in the red shirts they're Trojans and he just really took me under his wing and you know just a guy that age at 13 was probably my first mentor and you know I grew up with Russell. We played some junior hockey together. We ended up playing again together at the same Premier League club and then we played a lot of our international hockey together.

Speaker 1: 5:20

So my school of coaching and the way I do things isn't typically English hockey style. And then I think along the way, when I first started playing Premier League hockey, I think the first manager I had could see there was a lot of talent and a lot of determination, very grit, very different, very creative, but with some problems. With ADHD generally comes other disorders and I think I've got ODD Oppositional Defiance Disorder and these people took the time to work out how to communicate and work with me and get the best out of me rather than just give up and think let's just go for the easier option. And the first guy that did that was a guy called Dave Whittle who went on to be my GB manager, as well as a guy called Chris Pickett who became my Premier League manager, and to this day I kind of look at him like a second father. Those three people, if you ask me off the top of my head, are absolutely the reason why I am or who I am today.

Speaker 2: 6:16

Brilliant, thanks for sharing that. Well, take us back then. I introduced you with this, stumbling into the game of hockey as a young boy and it sounds and, as we'll go through, it's shaped you and it's helped you, like you say, become the person you are. Talk to us a little bit about the player first. I mean, how did you get into the game and what was your? Talk us through your career.

Speaker 1: 6:39

I got into hockey. My family aren't sporty at all. I'm kind of the black sheep of my family. I mean one of my dad's dad, my granddad. He was sporty, but other than that it's a little bit unusual.

Speaker 1: 6:52

I was about five years old, sunday school finished. It wasn't really the right environment for me, so I ran out at the end, crossed over a main road, down another road, over another main road and I got home. My neighbor was outside getting ready to go to hockey, so he kind of kept an eye on me until my mom caught up with me and then I think he said to me like oh, he's a bit of a handful because we haven't lived there that long. And she said, yeah, he can be quite a handful. And the guy's name was Alf Wimser. He's still in the game today.

Speaker 1: 7:19

He's not some much a mentor, but he was certainly the first significant person to start my pathway by saying to my mom okay, well, look, let me take him to hockey next week. We'll tie him out, give you a bit of time at home without him and then we'll bring him back afterwards. But it was really insignificant at the time. You know a neighbor offering to take a five year old to a sports session.

Speaker 1: 7:44

But I still remember walking around my first Olympic opening ceremony thinking you know how does a boy from Portsmouth, a little bit underprivileged, cancel state background, failed at school? How do I end up here? And then you realize that insignificant moment at five years old of a neighbor introducing me to the sport was the single most significant moment in my entire life. I guess it backfired on almost everybody in that you've now armed a five year old ADHD kid with a hockey stick and a ball in the days of single paying class and greenhouses. But I don't think anyone regrets that. And the thing is my neighbor, we actually had a road between us so he had a long wall that went down the side of this dead end road where I would bang the ball against this wall. It was bad, don't put down. But don't put down hour after hour and as much as he's proud that he can say that he got me into hockey.

Speaker 1: 8:37

apparently my mom always tells me the reason he moved is because of me. Yeah, I'm forever grateful to Alph and his introduction to the game. Again, it comes back to what I said earlier. That was so insignificant, but not really in the long term and I don't know how insignificant a moment I have with a child that I coach could be if it has the same power that Alph's did with me in the mid seventies Absolutely right, and I think you're touching it before.

Speaker 2: 9:04

these moments come from everywhere or these individuals as well, who shape our life, the interactions we have it's so often then, well, our reactions to that, what are the behaviors and, like you say, that decision there for you to well take up the game, take up the sport, keep exploring it, that completely shaped everything that follow. And so, as you moved from, I guess, that introduction to the game, when did you realize you were good? When did someone say, actually there's a bit of talent there.

Speaker 1: 9:34

That's really. I keep wondering that, because I've got a nine year old son who is exceptionally talented with hand-eye coordination. I mean we had him hitting balls when all he could do was sit before we could crawl. We would roll in balls and he would hit them. You know his golf is exceptionally high, his stick skills and his hockey is exceptionally high, but he's got no driable motivation to do anything with them yet. So it started me recently asking the question. I always believed in my head it was like from the first day and I don't know, I don't know when it started. I know I won my first award as mini-cult player of the year in 1982. So by the age of 10, I think it was apparent that I was training all the time and I was interested. A year later I went on to have my first county trial.

Speaker 1: 10:22

The generation of kids today. If there's an easier way to do something or if they don't want to go, they just don't go. But I remember very, very young, one day I didn't want to go to hockey and it was raining or something. My mum said no, you've made a commitment. You said you're going to hockey, you are going. And I remember thinking that's not very fair. I don't want to go. But little things like that make such a difference and you don't get anywhere in life. Every time something gets a little bit difficult or you can't be bothered. You're not going to get anywhere. You're just going to spend your whole life being jealous of everyone else and thinking how lucky they are.

Speaker 1: 10:54

But I was obsessed with all sport. I was on the books at Portsmouth back in the day. I was a county cricketer. I played basketball. I've done an ice hockey. I'm obsessed with sport because with ADHD it's always expelling that energy.

Speaker 1: 11:08

And if there's something that I'm interested in, I didn't realise till later that I have this incredible ability to do something others would get bored of. I can do it for hours and hours and hours. But if I'm not interested, you're lucky if you'll get a minute's interest or effort out for me. Some people don't have that strength to push past boredom, but they have the ability to get stuff done that they don't want to do, which I don't, and it's all balanced. My supreme strengths have supreme weaknesses, and some people sit right in the middle and it's not bad. The world needs people that have the balance of the two.

Speaker 1: 11:45

But I would honestly go out onto the street and at the end of my neighbour's wall that we spoke about earlier, there was a factory and I would just hit balls against the factory on my own in the rain, in the cold, you know, on concrete with a wooden stick. My stick that I had the bottom of the stick was flat, where it just worn on the concrete. So much you know, and I took that all the way through my career and when I went back to coach the Great Britain Players in 2004, a specific skill that I managed to master the first thing the GB coach said because we played together, we roomed together with World Cup he just said how they can only train for 40, 45 minutes and then they get bored and then they can't, they can't train anymore, they can't do what you used to be able to do. I used to be able to do that for two hours in a set, three times a day and not lose any interest. You know, and to be really good best in the world, that's what you have to do.

Speaker 2: 12:34

It's true. What I like, though, is your nuance on that. You know, talking about your focus, your focus to do something that you love to do, that you have that passion to do. Through it, you know, through it all for two hours, whereas for those who would have been in a team with you, who would have excelled, they worked hard at things they perhaps didn't want to do, recognizing that the end goal, recognize that end goal. So, whilst you got to that same point, the actual motivations were quite different in doing so. I think that I've never considered it in that way, I've never contemplated, and it is, you know, similar to you, with a supposed diagnosis coming later in your life, you know, before you. Well, come over here to Sydney for the Sydney Olympics. What I find interesting is you grew up with those behaviors, those activities, those ability to be hyper focused or switched off. What was it like for you academically at that time?

Speaker 1: 13:30

I hated school. You know my first four years of school. They're okay because it's not that strict, it's not that driven, there's a constant change of activity and I was okay. Middle school I did okay. But already you can see in my reports and it's unbelievable. You could take my reports at that age and my son's reports changed the name and they're identical. I mean it's so bizarre but they're all exceptionally bright but doesn't concentrate, loses focus, distracts others etc, etc. When you take a young kid that age with ADHD and sit them down for hours, you're not going to get the best out of them and teachings come a long way. You know state schools it's very much a one size fits all. It's how it has to work.

Speaker 1: 14:14

I unfortunately didn't fit into that, you know. So I was okay in junior school but when I went to senior school it kind of went downhill almost straight away because I'm in the 98th percentile for problem solving, analyzing and communication, but I'm in the 32nd percentile for memory. So I can't remember things just because you told me them when they're in, they're in and they're in forever. And you know, a lot of people think my memory is incredible because I remember details that, oh my God, how did you remember that? But then I go upstairs to get a toothbrush and come down with a pillow. You know it's like, but how did you forget? And the problem at school. So if you have a memory disorder, you can't rely on being told that's how it works, just because it is. I need to understand why it's like that, because if I understand why that happens, it's not memory to recall the information. So all the time I'm keeping up, I'm okay, but if I fall behind at any point, I'm never catching up. You know it's like the old generation game and all those things used to come along and they conveyed about. You got the first four, then you remember five, but you forget one. So you go back to remember one and now you've missed six and seven. That was basically school life for me, every day and then you think, just give up, what's the point? What is the point? I'm behind now and there's no support for me to catch up, so I'm done.

Speaker 1: 15:41

And again, a lot of it was down to the ADHD. And when you see, I see a lot of Instagram videos, I've read a lot of books to try and support my son and people will give up quite quickly on ADHD because it seems like they're inattentive. But if I'm looking out a window in a class let's say they've said this happened in this year and it's because of this I'm like, oh wow, think about that. And I'm like daydreaming thinking about this brilliant bit of information I've just been giving and I'm so interested. They're like stop looking out the window out and you're like I was fascinated actually with what you said, not disinterested. And then you're out and then you get labeled and then you get targeted by people If there's problem it's probably him and you're judged before you've even had a chance to sort of defend yourself.

Speaker 1: 16:29

And in the end I got to a point and this is so common with kids with ADHD I just went you know what, if I'm going to get in trouble for stuff I haven't done, I'm going to get in trouble for stuff that I did. And that was how I pursued my schooling and actually it became. The interesting thing at school was what can I do so that I can talk my way out of it? That was more engaging for me at times was being able to be a bit naughty and then show off my ability to give to the guy and talk my way out of it and walk off scot-free. It wasn't bad stuff, you know. It might just be eating while I'm supposed to be studying in a class. It might be just banging a few lockers and then saying I tripped, it was, school did not support me, and it's not the schools, for it's the system. But I hated it and it's so ironic that I've now been working in schools for over a decade.

Speaker 2: 17:16

That's right.

Speaker 1: 17:18

I think my job is I'm in that environment to make sure that that doesn't happen to other people. You know, and there is a plan, there's. Everything happens for a reason good and bad and you cannot live life with the good if you don't appreciate the bad. So you know, I take my schooling and I think I was supposed to have that schooling to help many more people in the school environment over the last 10 years and hopefully over the next 10 as well.

Speaker 2: 17:44

Yeah, I'm sure it's had a big impact. I know it has. You know, certainly, the way that schools have changed or, as you kind of said, progressed, as we know more and learn more. So on one side we're hearing this. You know from your school life. How is that same behavior? I'm curious, how did that memory approach approach to memory memorizing things that you were interested in, how did that support you as you rose then through the ranks in hockey?

Speaker 1: 18:13

I think if I played in other countries, potentially I could have done a lot better. I think, being English, england tends to be very conservative, the way we play our football, even with Garif Salf, how long did it take the nation to beg to get Grealish on with some creativity and some fire and some excitement? You know I'm a sports supporter, so that just tells you. I grew up. Glen Hodel, chris Waddle, gasco, and look at those styles of players, you know Enigmas, creative, exciting. They might not have won the Premier League, but more people would have been inspired by that than just this classic sort of get it, give it, stick to the game plan, don't break the game plan. And I remember from a very early age a lot of people told me I was a very Dutch style player, because I see things differently to everyone else, because different parts of my brain work to the way that most people's brains work. So you know, I think Kevin De Bruyne, for example, might have ADHD because he sees things so much faster than everyone else and he doesn't kick the ball any different to anyone else, he just sees it quicker and actions it quicker. And but he'll also do things that are different. You know, messi does things that are different, and you can't have everyone doing that, because if we had 10 messes on pitch, you'd lose. It's just the way it is. But if you also had 10 Huybergs, that's not going to work either, because where's your creative spark? You need all these different types of personalities and in Holland it's very much lose beautifully rather than sort of win ugly, and I think we're so prescribed and cricket's always like there's one way to bat and that's it. And then Peterson came along and look what he did.

Speaker 1: 19:54

So it was difficult for me growing up because people wanted people to be almost robotic in the system and the way they played. And I might think, well, if I do that there's three players there but there's none over there, so I'm going to go that way, and they found that difficult. I think in Holland that flair and that creativity would have been harnessed and encouraged and shaped rather than squashed. And that's not just me. I know some other players that have played internationally for England and when they didn't conform to the way the team was supposed to play, because they were being more effective by playing what they saw in front of them, they were also, you know, got rid of quite quickly. And I just think, if you're going to go out, go out having lost five, four, then one zero, and you just went out with a whimper and no fight or spark.

Speaker 2: 20:37

Yeah, now wouldn't you say that, because you're a striker and you're about scoring goals.

Speaker 1: 20:43

If you were a paying fan to go and watch a Premier League football match. And we've heard it about Mourinho, we've heard it about a few coaches Conte was another one who both have coached Tottenham recently and I hear it about Ten Hard now at Manchester United. People aren't enjoying the football and if you didn't enjoy every game, but sort of one some if you do that, you're not going to win the league.

Speaker 1: 21:06

You do all right, you might make top four or make Champions League, but you're not going to win anything. But how boring is it? We can week out to go and watch your team kind of park the bus, scrape a one-nil ugly, win, see no real flair or talent. Whereas look at City. Now I'm not a City fan, but I think I secretly am, because he's got a team that play unbelievable football and no one there that you don't like because they dive or they argue. They're just brilliant people. Great football. It's entertaining to watch. You can't help but admire City, even if you're not a City fan, because they play football how every single person in this country wish their team played and that's, I assume that's how everyone will want to see their teams play.

Speaker 2: 21:49

Well, I think it is. That's how you'd want them to do it. In the back of your mind, or perhaps it becomes to the front very quickly you're going to want to win and I mean, you were in teams that won. You were I would describe you as someone who wants to win a winner and you saw what your role was and you stuck to that. Were you simply looking at that? You were in a team that was creative, and was creative to the point that you were the end point. You were the person the last stick to hit the ball. Does that make a difference?

Speaker 1: 22:16

At a young level. I started at a club for quite a long period of time where we weren't very good. We played all the better teams and I liked that environment. I'm trying to convince people that want to come to my school at the moment, or thinking about their next decision Don't just go to the school that potentially just gets in all the best players from the country. Yeah, they win nationals every year, but what are you getting out of being in a team full of superstars against, you know, inferior opposition where there's not really a challenge? What are you learning?

Speaker 1: 22:44

And I learned growing up in a team that had three or four good players and then just good or odd players. We had to fight, so I learned how to go box to box, touch line to touch line. I had to learn to just scrap and fight sometimes, but also never to give up because we won games we had no right to win. And one of the talks I gave when I lived in South Africa was I took Blumphantains' Free State side down to Poch to play against the local team and the idea was Blumphantains' Free State's rubbish, give them a good thrashing before England plays South Africa, let's go. And I just said to my 12 players and I'm playing in Poch, who are one of the strongest teams in South Africa. I just said to my girls, if anyone here ever won a game, you had no right to win. And they went, yes. I said, right, if you ever lost a game you should not have lost. And they went, yeah, and I said, well, why can't this be a day where we win a game we're not supposed to win and they lose a game they should never have lost? And we went and beat them 1-0, really upset the home fans and it really kind of upset the mood for the day, because no one has a God-given right to beat anyone just because on paper you're better than them.

Speaker 1: 23:49

It's who works the hardest and who works the longest, and I learned that from being in not the best team and I wouldn't have learned those lessons I don't think, playing in the strongest team week in, week out, walking off having 1-8, 9-0, but not really having worked for it, and I think that's really, really valuable.

Speaker 1: 24:07

And in that time it led me to when I moved on to Haven, which was the first club that really looked after me and taught me about the world that people would look to me to score the goal. I remember captains running past me Cal, come on, we need something, score, do something. Just because I'm different, I'm highly energetic and run and don't give up, and I see things differently, I will dive as far as I can and now reach and just hope I get a stick on. The best thing about being ADHD is you're the ultimate optimist, and something I saw on Instagram recently is the most successful people in the world, by habit, are absolute optimists, and you have to be to be successful, and these are all things ADHD gave me for free, without having to think about it. To me, that's just just getting up.

Speaker 2: 24:53

So then when you've got a captain running past you saying Cal, do something, do something magical, how was that taken for you? That's a pressure. It's an international game. I mean that's pressure. How do you deal with that?

Speaker 1: 25:06

See, that's the thing. I never really felt the pressure because you know, I watched the Last Dance a few times and obviously Michael Jordan is probably the greatest athlete that's ever lived and I think, as much as there is so many good life lessons and things to learn from all of the players and all of the clips, the thing at the end they talked about Michael being the most Zen-like player in history.

Speaker 1: 25:29

And Zen is about being in the moment. People think Zen is Buddhism and religion and everything else. It's not. It's.

Speaker 1: 25:35

Michael always says why would I be afraid of something that hasn't happened to him? Every basket was. It's not linked to the ones that you've either missed or scored before. It's its own unique experience and what's happened before has no bearing on this situation. So there's a ball, there's a basket, just get it in. It's either going to go in or it's not. But if you think about what happens if it doesn't go in, you're not thinking about what happens if it goes in.

Speaker 1: 26:01

So for me, just naturally, always in the moment, I don't plan. I've got, you know, the brain capacity to think so far ahead that I'm not in the moment. And there were many times when I was asked to and I didn't deliver. But I would say there were an enormous amount of times when I was asked to and I did. But you cannot succeed unless you're prepared to fail. And you know there's a great quote, isn't there, from Jordan that said I missed 3000 game winning shots or took this many throws, and the numbers are staggering. But they play a lot of fixtures and I don't think people realise that. When I first saw that I was stunned because I'd only been aware of all those last minute after the last whistle. You know shots that he made in the championship he won, but he wouldn't have had those without all those failures. And people who aren't prepared to stack up numbers in the failure column are never going to have any numbers in the success column either.

Speaker 2: 26:54

That's right and, like you say, the optimism, the power of optimism, living in the moment is critical With ADHD. You had that for free. You didn't even know, you didn't even realise you had that. You perhaps you know, as you've said, you recognised your energy, you recognise the fact you could do something magical, but you didn't recognise, you know, understand that reason and why. Certainly until later it's probably on reflection a lot of that comes back to you. So when you look then at your career and you know, you think about what you've achieved. What's perhaps one or two of the sort of biggest highlights for you?

Speaker 1: 27:31

So hard. I mean, you must know yourself it's hard when people ask that question because you know, if you picked your top three, I don't think any of those were happened without another 30 or 40 amazing moments as well. I think potentially two, and there's one that sort of springs to mind that I've never really considered before, when you know, having just listened to what you just said and how you summarised that, but we, when I played for Havn, they just won the league. We then won it again, and then we had a year where we didn't, and then we won it the following year, and back then it was when Sky Sports was very, very small, like no one really had it, and what they were doing is they were videoing two games at Birmingham University, so they could do it all in one location. So it was all a neutral venue and the GB manager, who used to be my club manager, was on the coach and as we went up they did this thing called a champagne moment in the game. So anything that was it could have been a save, a tackle or skill, and I was like I'm going to win that, I'm going to win that, and I was this little cocky sort of 20 year old and I was like I've got this and he said I will resign as GB manager before I give you that award.

Speaker 1: 28:36

So, anyway, we go up, then we're trying to win the league again and my stick broke. I had one of these new. They were trying to sell these new unbreakable sticks and they actually said in the warmup on TV, our Calum Giles here with one of these new unbreakable sticks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, broken the warmup. And I didn't have any other sticks because I didn't need one, because it was unbreakable. So I borrowed someone stick.

Speaker 1: 29:00

So we're playing this game against our poor and it's Neil, neil and it's a dead game. It's just not interesting. It's the worst game you could have put on TV, really actually thinking about it. And it was dull, dull, dull. And then, two minutes from the end, someone flicked the ball in the air over the top and one of their defenders got it and I came from his blindside and I jabbed the ball off him. The next defender came towards me and I pushed it down his left foot, got the ball again. The keeper came out and I just managed to tip it past him and I was about as wide as you could be in the D and about two meters off the baseline and I fell to my right and I took the shot and it went in the top left on the far side of the goal and went in and I was knackered because I'd like.

Speaker 1: 29:44

Really I'm a hard worker. When I play, I play and I play like my life depends on it and actually in some ways maybe it did and I was done. It was the last minute of the game and I was on the floor and I remember Don Williams, who was a very good friend, who looked after me, came out and sort of grabbed me like this on the floor and said bloody well done, or whatever. I can't remember what he said to that, just remember seeing it on camera and then they could have picked me up. I had nothing left to give and then the final whistle went and of course, david Whittle, the GB man, had to give me the champagne moment because the game was pretty dull. Anyway, this was one of the best goals I think I scored in the Premier League and went on to win goal of the month and goal of the season, as it was.

Speaker 1: 30:24

But again, sitting on that coach, you've got to say these things because you've got. You know, it's like an affirmation. If you keep telling yourself enough that something's going to happen, it will happen. And I could have given up on that goal on four different occasions, on different stages of that goal, but I always believe I can achieve anything I want, and if I don't, I can look back and say I gave my best, there's no more I could have done, whereas if I don't give my best, I'll always spend my life wondering if I tried or if I tried a bit harder, and that's something I can't live with.

Speaker 1: 30:53

So I would say that's one, and then scoring my first Olympic goal is the other, because you know as a kid suffering through school, you know suffering through setbacks in international selection, european Cup selection, with my club injuries. I scored that goal and I remember I said I'm going to do a knee slide, which you don't do in hockey, but I just said I'm going to do a knee slide. I dreamt about this, I genuinely dreamt about this. My first touch of the Atlanta Olympics, I scored, and that moment is that's why it was worth it, because it's not easy. The fitness training is so hard. The sacrifices of weddings, parties, stag dues all of that was worth it. The only downside is when you knee slide on Astro turf, you burn all the skin off, and when I went and sat on the bench there's a clip of me and obviously, like you can see me sit down, you're drilling in wears off, and then I'm like how, like it was so sore, but I'll take that to score my first Olympic goal. It's worth more than any amount of money.

Speaker 2: 32:00

No, that's a. That's a good memory and I guess physically making it quite memorable with a bit of a knee slide on Astro not something we recommend to any listeners out there as well. I'm curious, you know, moving ahead in your career at the, what drove the decision to be assessed for ADHD in you know that 99 period and how did it change either your game or your preparation for it or behavior afterwards?

Speaker 1: 32:27

It's a really good question. So I moved to Holland after 96 Olympics. I got a phone call in my front room just playing on a PlayStation one, which at the time is like gold dust and very elite and I got a call would you want to come to Holland? And I just, yes, do you want to think about it? I did, like, well, who doesn't want to go and play hockey and Holly? So I went over and I met a girl. Within a few months we got engaged.

Speaker 1: 32:53

A few months later we moved back to England after the World Cup and she was reading a magazine, a Dutch magazine, and they always seemed to just be ahead of us in so many areas. I mean, they had chip and pin payment 10 years before we did, when we were still writing checks and messing around with stuff, and they're the same medically. And she just read this. I could see her in this magazine and then looking at me and reading. And then looking at me and I was like all right, what have I done here? Is this about men around the house not tidying up? What have I done wrong? And she went I think you've got ADHD. And I went what? What? Because I've never heard of it. I mean, today people are quite aware, but even five years ago no one knew. And there were three columns and each column, I think the first one had like 12 signs, the next one had about 10 and the last one had 6. It was like if you've got four of the first column, three of the second and two of the last, and we worked out, had all but one across all the columns and I was like this is starting to make quite a lot of sense. What's going on here Now. The internet was out, but not great. Not a lot was on it. We're still trying to figure out how to use the internet and how to present it. So I was still very limited on what knowledge I had. But it started to give me an opportunity to just think something's different, and I always think the best way to explain it is if you're diabetic and you know you've got it, you can monitor it, and although you rather you weren't you know how to monitor it, how to look after yourself, and you know your body and ADHD is the same. Once you've got it, you can start to understand what you can do, what you can't do, what you should do and what you shouldn't do and more information is coming out now. It makes sense in that you're extremely likely to alienate your peer groups socially with ADHD, and that makes sense within the team.

Speaker 1: 34:58

Why I didn't always fit in? Because, as Tim Grover said, who was the personal trainer to Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and people like one of his chapters is winning makes you different and different, scarce people. When people are scared, they tend to bad mouth and whatever. And I'm not saying I'm a winner, but what I'm saying is I am different and I was certainly different back then when no one knew what it was. And when you're different, we don't.

Speaker 1: 35:22

In this England I don't feel where as accepting as I found in Holland of people that either dress differently or look different or act differently. So I now understand why I didn't fit in, particularly to the GB squad at times or to club sides or my peer groups. And I think when you start to understand the symptoms you start to do, you start to realize it's not everyone else. I am different. I do things differently. There's an element that they need to cater for everybody on their own merits, but also I need to adapt some of the extreme things I do that eliminate peer groups or people that might want to spend time with me, and it's just knowing why. So when I moved to Holland, I actually went to Osweal Trust and Test Stunks.

Speaker 1: 36:09

I just felt so tired and so low and no, nothing came back in blood, just anything. And what I've realized now is I had ADHD and I was bored because I had nothing to do. When I'm bored, I'm tired, simple, I sleep. I'm not stimulated, my dopamine levels are not being fulfilled, so there was nothing wrong with me. If I'd known that, then I would have probably gone and done something, but I was like I don't want to do anything. I'm so tired. I didn't realize I needed to do something. So I wasn't tired. So it changed a lot. So I wished things had changed quicker, earlier probably. But if I do that, it looks like I'm regretting what I've done and I don't even want to look back on anything I've done with regret. So I'll take it. But what I can do is influence the future.

Speaker 2: 36:53

That is interesting just hearing that path you went through, because for me now there's a lot more diagnosis, a lot more awareness of ADHD and it's interesting just to get an understanding of how it changes your approach to sport in particular. I see it in the classroom, I hear that in the workplace and those behaviors, but how is it used or how is your awareness of it? How does it change your approach to your training and indeed, as you mentioned there, that interaction with teams and coaches?

Speaker 1: 37:27

Yeah, I mean it's interesting because in 2004, I was asked to go to America and I went and spent a month coaching the US women's team in preparation for the Olympics. And I was still coming from England where what's ADHD? Oh, that's not a real thing and all this lack of knowledge, and it wasn't the individual on the streets, it's just that England were behind as a nation and as a government and medical society or whatever. And I go out there and I'm there about an hour and someone says, if you've got ADHD, I went what? How do you know?

Speaker 1: 37:59

Oh, five of our girls have got it and they knew and those girls, within their environment, were absolutely treasured and loved because they understood them and they worked with them and they thought, oh, that's just Deena, because she's got ADHD. And they loved them and they brought that fire, that spark when they were tired. After we flew from Virginia Beach to California with a five-hour stopover in Chicago, with a missed flight, we got in at four in the morning. They were doing sprint drills at seven. I mean, the girls in the States do not mess around, they train. But they looked to these girls, they were like come on, girls, let's go up, we get, come on and they dragged.

Speaker 1: 38:39

I mean, they brought something different and I just thought I wish I'd had that. You know, they've got this unique gift and they are respected and loved for it, whereas I kind of felt the opposite because but people didn't know I had it. It's not like I said he's got ADHD and they're pushing me away. It was just no understanding. So I think a lot of things have changed, but something that's fascinated me, that somebody said to me a couple of years ago, is when you take ADHD, autism and all these different things and people say it's a mistake, it's a defect, and someone said, no, it's not, because you need people with ADHD to be creative, think outside the box, think what's the next level. You know Steve Jobs clearly had ADHD, there's no question. I can't remember his name, I just said it the other day. The guy that set up Netflix admits in his opening chapter he's ADHD and people get saying he can't do it. Now he's got a guy with ADHD that has a creative idea and optimism, probably ODD, which is perfect, because when everyone said stop, he went no, we've now got Netflix. Look where Netflix is now. Look where Apple is now.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Phil Knight who set up Nike. I've listened to his book about 15 hours long. I've listened to that about seven times. He clearly had ADHD as well. When you hear his read the book, he had ADHD. Now, if you take people like that, where's the creativity coming from to that level? And then someone said so you've got all this going on. And then you've got piles of research, analytics, numbers, blah, blah, blah. Who are the best people in the world to look at that and make sense of it? People with autism. They can go through that, see the numbers and then you pass it on to the third stage. So if you take ADHD, you've got no creativity. You take autism out. You haven't got the processing of this incredible, huge, vast information. We're all designed the way we are because without one of them, everything stops working. And I found that amazing because I thought I'm a valuable piece of this puzzle.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Yeah you are, and that neurodiverse it is, it's going to sound odd, more and more becoming mainstream, more and more becoming recognized for the value that it can bring. That it's diversity, that diversity in the community, diversity in the workplace, in teams, in sport, and that's it's much more embraced than it was, certainly as we were growing up, coming through the game, coming through education. So for you, as you started to, I guess, for you, the end of your career, towards the end of your career from 2000,. You, you're aware of ADHD, you are starting to control it and manage that as your career was coming to an end. What were your thoughts then around you as an individual, what you're doing, and also from an ADHD perspective, how did that impact, or to what extent did it impact, your decision?

Speaker 1: 41:23

I spent 12 years at school and came out with three E's and an F in my GCSEs. And the worst thing about that is when I'm asked to put that on an application form for a job. I don't know what subjects they're in, so I just have to put three E's and an F and then just put question mark, which is the worst. It's the most embarrassing part of an application form. I then did two years of a BTEC course which I walked out of a month before the end because of my ADHD, which I didn't know I had, because I couldn't do the German element, which is purely memory. I just couldn't cope. It was too overwhelming and I'd started coaching and earning money so I thought I don't really need it. So you've got someone now who started coaching kids at the age of 17, became a professional coach at the age of 19 and has no qualifications on paper whatsoever. Haven't saw that I had an ability to coach and engage with young people even, which is odd because I've said that people with ADHD kind of alienate their peer groups. But I'm good with kids. I'm good with people when I'm coaching, when you're extremely creative and optimistic, it's a pretty and you know you're in the 98% of analyzing, observing and problem solving it's a pretty obvious career is to coach, because the whole thing is to observe, analyze and problem solve. So I got into coaching at 19. I coached my career. It wasn't a full time job. So if I was playing for England, that's four weeks. I'm not working, I'm not earning any money.

Speaker 1: 42:48

I was poor throughout my international career because I was an. You know, I was a self employed hockey coach and it was the early days of coaching. No one really did it. No one had money for it. When you had to convince someone that they need a coach, they were like really, and how much? So when I got lottery funding and you know I'm not knocking lottery funding in any way whatsoever, because when you roll out program that massive, there are going to be glitches and mess ups, but I didn't get a lot of money from that. I was asked to train more and then I earned less and then I went, tried to go to uni as a mature student when I moved back from Holland and then they basically put me on a student category which dropped my income overnight by about £10,000, but I had a renting flat with a fiance, still had a car, still had bills and I had £10,000 less overnight to do it, and it had to stay that way for six months till the next assessment, which they changed.

Speaker 1: 43:47

So when I came towards the end of my career in 2000, I mean, I was peaking, if I'm honest. I got the game, I knew what I was doing, I was playing well. I just thought the lottery fund want me to provide receipts for what I'm spending it on and it's supposed to be on the equipment and this, that and the other and I was overwhelmed. I didn't understand money. I'd never had any money. I wasn't from money. I probably could have gone to the lottery people and said this is the facts, this is where the money's gone. I don't have any. I haven't spent it on what. I've spent it on rent. I've spent it on living, surviving. But I thought you know what, if I retire, I don't have to account for the money. So that was a part of my thinking.

Speaker 1: 44:28

And the other thinking was I've done the cycle twice. I've done the Olympics, rest year, world Cup, euros. We're fifth in the world. I've done the cycle twice. I've scored over a hundred goals. The only thing now is to win medals, which would not, because we're just not good enough. This better nations and us.

Speaker 1: 44:43

I Need to start thinking in about my future, and a player coach job was the only way really that I could get an income and I was coaching a club that had approached me and asked me Would I be interested in a player coach role. So that's why I retired and I just literally Transitioned seamlessly from one playing internationally and playing at a club to play coaching a club and running it really. So Some people quit Football and in-end management or running restaurant, and that's different because it's not the same. It's a hundred percent Different. I never really felt anything changed, other than I didn't see the national anthem and travel the world really. So I guess the transition Was easier and the fact that I was a double Olympian for fifth Well at that point and for 15 years I was the country's highest gold scorer it made it a bit easier to Push that second stage of my career. I just wished I understood I was allowed to earn money and that everyone has a right to better themselves financially. I've never had money ever.

Speaker 1: 45:49

My mum worked at the local Corner shop and then for a very long period she drove a van where, when Garages needed parts. She just drove the parts that they needed. And I Kind of brought up in a world where we they I had. I shared a very small bedroom with my brother. My dad drove a transit van. I Didn't want for anything because the environment I was in no one had anything. And then I Was kind of led to believe that it's really selfish and materialistic to have money and possessions and stuff. So I was always happy go lucky. As long as I'm surviving, I'm okay.

Speaker 1: 46:24

And then I got myself into some financial difficulty because I didn't pay tax, because I moved abroad and just played a season and then I left it and then I got frightened. So I left it a bit longer, which meant the bill got a bit higher and it was this horrible cycle of Financial problems. And then after five years I moved back to haven't. And that's when Chris picket, who I mentioned earlier, said Carl, I know it's scary, I know it's not deliberate, go to the accountant. And I did, and I was player coach at haven't at that time. And then I found, I think, with the tax bill At the interest, and they charged me penalties which I thought was a bit harsh, given I went to them with open arms and all the information. They wanted penalties as well. I'm not some sort of tax frauder that's been caught. I've offered this and explain. So I got hit with 28,000 pounds from HMRC. Like to pay? So I've been asked if I was interested in a job at Ports of Uni coaching as to community hockey coach, and I wasn't interested because it wasn't really what I needed or wanted.

Speaker 1: 47:27

But the next day I took the job, I applied, got the job. I was working a full-time job there, pretty much a full-time job at my club, and then I worked all my holidays for stickwise working running my camps. So within a year I kind of paid off the debt. A few months later I bought house and then I suddenly realized I Wasn't going to a cashmort to get 10 pounds out to have a few drinks that night, but doing that because you don't want to see your balance and that you're overdrawn. I was like I quite like looking now because I've got some money in there.

Speaker 1: 48:01

And then I realized If you are making money but you are offering quality Value and you genuinely doing it for love, it doesn't matter how much money you make. It's if you're fleecing people in the short term that it's not right and there's nothing wrong with being financially secure. It's not materialistic To have a house that you're comfortable in, the car that you like and you can occasionally go on holiday. Because that was how I fell Life was. I had two holidays in my whole life with my mom and dad and my brother. One was to Swansea uni Accommodation and a few days out, and one was the same somewhere in Cornwall. I've never been overseas, I've never been on a proper holiday. It was literally the cheapest of cheap and I've realized now I have a right to live how other people live, if I work hard and if I'm fair and I'm honest about the way that I do it.

Speaker 2: 48:55

Yeah, and look, it's interesting to hear it. I think culturally indeed Sometimes it's socioeconomically community wise there is a guilt to having that financial gain and for those certainly now are going to professional sports, it's a guilt factor and that sort of blinds them from being able to make better decisions because of what it means to have money and how much to make give away. From a career perspective, I actually see there's a similar sort of literacy, that career literacy, that having a job, having something where you're doing something you love to do, something that you actually value, and what it sounds like is for you your transition from player to player coach to coach and running stick wise, is actually you continuing to do things that you loved all the way through coaching. Well, you weren't doing it before you were a player, but you were doing it before you were elite. You were coaching from right, from the start and it's like you were just able to continue that and, as a result, that helped. Well, that just made your transition actually not a transition, it's more just a Rebalancing, in fact.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's funny because I remember as a kid people saying or you went, I wear tracksuits all the time and they were like, oh, you won't do that for long, you'll be wearing jeans and fashion and blah, blah, blah. I'm like 51 and I can guarantee if you see me, I'm either in shorts or tracksuit, I can guarantee it. And then somebody when I started coaching is about 1920s old. Somebody said you won't be able to do this forever, you'll get bored, you'll move on, you need to get a career, you need an education. So I'm 51 as of last Friday. I coach seven day weeks because I work Monday to Saturday at school, I coach the club on a Sunday and I run my camps in the holidays. I'm doing it more now than ever. Now.

Speaker 1: 50:42

What they didn't know back in the early 90s, when they said that was I'm ADHD, I do things in extremes, I am playing to my strengths, which is I can analyze and I can problem solve. I'm outside. You know, I'm 51 years old, I'm still fit, I'm still healthy. People can't believe I'm 51 and it's so nice. You know, working with kids is quite funny because they say I can't do this anymore, I'm very old and I make fun, you're not old, you're not older than 60 and you're like, hold on a minute. But then the next minute they'll say, oh, you're not very old, you're like what, 30? And I'm like, right, I'll give you a merit for that. I mean, you know, they got no concept of age. But the adults generally seem quite surprised that I'm over 50 years old, because I'm still training with the sixth form at my schools and I'm still better than them because I've obviously done this a long time but I haven't lost any of my.

Speaker 1: 51:38

I cannot have one of those kids beat me in a tackle, in a pass. I can't. Have a keeper-saver shot. I can't, because it undermines my authority, is their coach, so I will dive, I will run and I will outrun every single one of them. I don't get that if I sit behind a desk and the beauty is I've got a nine-year-old boy who's also extreme combined ADHD. When he wants to play football, I play football with him. When he wants to wrestle, I'll wrestle him. When he wants to ride a bike, I'll ride my bike with him. I can't be a dad that says I'm too tired. I can't, because it's my duty of care to give him every energy and opportunity that I would have wanted when I was his age and being a dad of a kid with ADHD, that's nine years old when you're over 50 is difficult, but I'm coping mostly. So a job that keeps me fit, keeps me young, keeps me active, with young people Hoping I'm changing lives like what? What better job, potentially could there be?

Speaker 2: 52:35

Look, gallum, I think that's a brilliant summary of where you are today and you know your ability to Enjoy what you're doing, but love what you're doing with a passion and have time for family, have you know time to spend that, you know those moments, or create those memories with your son. I think that's absolutely wonderful. Look, gallum, you know. Probably last question really is as you look at your career and you look at how you have Well, I suppose, as we've looked at how you've rebalanced this, less of a transition and much more of a balancing of you know Managing those things that you love and and do. As you look at those coming up through the game, the six formers who you coach You've got these aspirations to to get to the Olympics, represent the country in terms of aiding that career transition towards the end. What sort of guidance or what tips would you give to them?

Speaker 1: 53:25

Yeah, I mean it's constantly evolving because people young people now Feel that an opinion is fact. They really not the six almost likes, but club players. We live in a world where, when people are asked for their opinion, they then think that should happen. And it's not, it's just your opinion, it doesn't mean it will happen. And also they want to. They want as much as possible with as little effort as possible, and You've got to change their mindset to it's not at work.

Speaker 1: 53:55

So I know it's how the government and how people want you to never be upset, and the honest truth is, life's not fair. It's just not because the wrong people Get cancer. The nicest kindness people in the world get it, and then some people that are really horrible people Don't, and it's not fair. People's cars are stolen, things happen that are not fair and you need to accept that you might be the best player who should be picked, but you might not, and that's not fair. It's not your mistakes or the things that don't go right for you, it's how you react to them. Do you give up and blame, or do you go out and work harder to make sure that that is not a factor the next time this situation arises? So the hardest thing is just getting them to want to put the work rate in.

Speaker 1: 54:33

I don't think people understand how hard you have to work To become a Premier League footballer or an international sports person of any sport or successful in a mechanics industry or an IT business. It's you have to be prepared to do what 99% of the world are not prepared to do, and that's going to be hard. It's going to be physically hard, mentally hard, it's going to be painful in both areas. But every failure is a lesson learned for the future, and I think the biggest thing for me is, since lockdown my last school, I was doing 85 hours of driving a month to and from work is I got the audible app and I've listened to books and I think Reading is vastly underrated.

Speaker 1: 55:17

And the books by Tim Grover, who worked with Kobe, and Michael Jordan, atomic habits, outliers all these books basically Are the cheat sheets To being successful. They teach you how to do things. Without them, you're behind, but you're getting a like a bit of a look at the exam questions before, which is Hard work hours that you put in, how to deal with problems and failure. Read, read is like podcasts like this. There's so much because you're going to have other you know amazing guests on, and one little line that someone says might be what goes click, I've got it, I'm off, and they'll look back on that like my neighbour introducing me to hockey is. That was the moment I realised that's how I've got to go. So that would be the other one. Callum, that's brilliant. Thank you very much for sharing your perspective.

Speaker 2: 56:05

I've really enjoyed our conversation. I'm sure those listening have done as well. So thanks for your time today. Really appreciate it. No, you're welcome any time. Thank you for listening to the second wind podcast.

Speaker 2: 56:17

We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career club, you can find out on our website. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio For more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty book design, nancy from savvy podcast solutions and serice from copying content by lola For their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.