When the final whistle blows on an athlete's career, the silence can be deafening. But for one former football enthusiast from Manchester, that silence heralded the start of an unexpected journey in recruitment and ultimately, a transition to professional running. This episode weaves through the guest's early days, where the stark realities of a small town with limited career guidance clashed with dreams of athletic grandeur, and how a seemingly temporary job became the launchpad for a fulfilling career shift.
Sport teaches us discipline, teamwork, and a relentless drive for success—and these lessons don't end on the pitch. Our conversation traverses the unlikely odyssey from the football fields of Manchester to the recruitment offices and, astonishingly, onto the running tracks of Granada and Chiang Mai. Discover how our guest harnessed the skills honed in sports to navigate the corporate world and redefine success, swapping the roar of the stadium for the milestones of business and the runner's high.
Turn in to learn more about:
… and so much more!
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leegrantham
Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/jungle.vip?ig
When the final whistle blows on an athlete's career, the silence can be deafening. But for one former football enthusiast from Manchester, that silence heralded the start of an unexpected journey in recruitment and ultimately, a transition to professional running. This episode weaves through the guest's early days, where the stark realities of a small town with limited career guidance clashed with dreams of athletic grandeur, and how a seemingly temporary job became the launchpad for a fulfilling career shift.
Sport teaches us discipline, teamwork, and a relentless drive for success—and these lessons don't end on the pitch. Our conversation traverses the unlikely odyssey from the football fields of Manchester to the recruitment offices and, astonishingly, onto the running tracks of Granada and Chiang Mai. Discover how our guest harnessed the skills honed in sports to navigate the corporate world and redefine success, swapping the roar of the stadium for the milestones of business and the runner's high.
Turn in to learn more about:
… and so much more!
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leegrantham
Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/jungle.vip?ig
for a lot of kids from where I grew up, we all had limited options. And you do kind of this was I left high school in 99. So we'd have this old computer where you'd kind of answer a hundred questions in it and tell you you're gonna be a sportsman, because of course that you had answered all the questions. I'm mad about football, I love football, I play football all the time, and so you kind of come out schooling like okay, so what do?
Speaker 1:I study at university. When you come out of college and then you're like well, I'm good at English, I'm good at maths. What does that mean? Unless you can have the conversations with adults that have some perspective on the world, you're not gonna know what you want to get out of life. And I think you know there's stats there to show that the people in third, fourth year of university most of them don't know what they wanna be in life, so they're already invested in some money, qys and time-wise and any into a path that they probably don't even know what it looks like. I mean, if you ask most people what a lawyer does, they probably give you the snapshot that they've seen in movies and on television series, but they don't know that it's all paper-based 95% and that 1% where they might be winning a course in front of a judge.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Ryan God-Salvers and welcome to a second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite guests to the show. Who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people. Afterwards. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show. Thank you, listen. It's actually a bit random having this conversation with you in some respects, because, despite our accents, neither of us are in our countries of origin and we're living, well, actually, just in the warm part of the world. So this is great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's perfect, absolutely perfect. Yeah, and it's so funny when we first spoke how close the places where we're from are back in the UK. So yeah, it's interesting small world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. Oh, at least we're demonstrating it's a big world. If you wanna get away and do a bit of exploration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And look. So today, as we've been chatting, it's very much about that career transition and what it's like being, suppose, an elite athlete and having to, well, just navigate normal life while all of this other stuff continues in us and really keen just to really unpick your story and share some key insights from your life, your experience, that I know for many who listen in are probably going to take a lot from it, because I think it's quite a special journey, unique opportunities that you've been able to explore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, let's then kick off, and I suppose I like to start. Well, where are you now? What goes on in your life today?
Speaker 1:Right now, I'm speaking to you right now from Dubai. So in the last year and a half I decided to move here and I guess we'll get onto that later on when we discuss career transition. But so as a kid I was doing every sport you can possibly imagine in Manchester and I went to a good school, basically a sports school, but with very little career kind of advice, which I think is true for many public schools in the UK. All I remember of my childhood was just playing sports whether I was crazy about football obviously an old and athletic fan and but there was everything and anything that we could possibly do to crick it in the summer, football in the winter, rugby in the winter to badminton, table tennis, anything you can think of.
Speaker 1:And then you get to an age where you do your first cross country run at school and because of all that football endurance and stamina I'd built up, I was pretty good at it and won the first race for school, got selected for the team and then that started a running journey. So I kind of focused on football and running growing up and yeah, and then at some point I always wanted to be a footballer, like you were always wanting to be a footballer. And then at some point I'd already realized. But I had to sit down with my dad and all my dad sat down with me and just told me I wasn't good enough which was difficult conversation to have, but the right conversation to have and so I focused on the running.
Speaker 1:That was my childhood. And then, as I said before, with the school kind of good school but limited career options. So you kind of know what teachers do, you know what your parents do, you know what maybe a lawyer, a doctor, an accountant does, but you don't have many more options. I'm much more of a view than that, and so when I left school I, like everybody else, I didn't know what I wanted to do because I hadn't become the footballer that I wanted to be. So I was pretty lost. So then I kind of transitioned into some kind of a career.
Speaker 2:Then I mean that's interesting that sit down with your dad as a young lad to tell you you're not good enough. How old were you? I mean, how brutal is that conversation? Was it in the back of the car? Son, you're not good enough, I'm not coming to watch you again. Or is it a bit more measured?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So my dad's definitely like the sick rather than the carrot guy. It's kind of like a couple of generations older than he actually is and I probably feel at least a generation older. So it was always kind of you came second today in a race, Like what could you have done to win? Not like congratulations, you came second. And I remember one race that came third and he was like third, just like almost kind of malfunctioned at the thought of me coming third and I tried to justify it.
Speaker 1:And then it's only later, when you look back on these things, that you realize that maybe it's not normal, but at the time it really pushes you. But that conversation in particular was I would imagine what it would be like having that conversation with my dad, with my son now and we've got social media and everything's amazing, Everyone's amazing, Everybody can be anything they want, the sky's the limit, et cetera. But this reality has to kick in at some point and I think if you've got somebody who you really love and trust in your corner, like my dad, who's still my hero to this day, and he can sit you down and he kind of managed my expectations. He told me you'd need to do X, Y and Z in order to kind of get to a certain stage with your football career, in order to kind of get selected, go for trials and make a team, and then it's kind of the conversations that you need to have. So it wasn't that bad. Of course it was emotional for both of us, probably more so him. Yeah, the right conversations have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's good and it does have an impact in that sense of realism, reality check, and I think it, as we'll chat, seems to be a bit of a theme in your life as you as you know, the way that you've made some of your decisions. One bit that I'm interested in, then, is you mentioned from a career aspiration perspective as in not just sport but jobs that was actually quite well closed for you as you were growing up.
Speaker 1:You know I think it is for a lot of kids from where I grew up we all had limited kind of options. And you do kind of this was I left school in 90, I left high school in 99. So we'd have this old computer where you'd kind of answer 100 questions in it and tell you you're going to be a sportsman, because of course you had answered all the questions. I'm mad about football, I love football, I play football all the time, and so you kind of come out schooling Okay, so what do I study at university? When you come out of college and then you're like well, I'm good at English, I'm good at maths. What does that mean? And unless you can have the conversations with adults that have some perspective on the world, you're not going to know what you want to get out of life. And I think you know there's stats that are there to show that the people in third, fourth year of university most of them don't know what they want to be in life. So they're already invested in some money-truelized and time-wise energy into a path that they probably don't even know what it looks like. I mean, if you ask most people what a lawyer does, they probably give you the snapshot that they've seen in movies and on television series. But they don't know that it's all paper-based 95% and that 1% where they might be winning a course in front of a judge, that might be something else you know. So we kind of glorify different careers. So yeah, for me I was a bit lost.
Speaker 1:So when I finished college, the only thing I knew is that I wanted to go traveling and so I wanted to go to Southeast Asia and do the kind of like that kind of Thailand, laos, cambodia, vietnam and maybe into Hong Kong and Singapore and China, and I was saving up for that. So I'd go to a recruitment company, a local temporary recruitment company, with my bicycle seven o'clock in the morning and every morning and just take any job that they give me. So I was like packing fish in a warehouse, I was making boxes, I was blowing up football which was ironic at the time and then they would give me office jobs and I would be filing and stuff like that. And then there was kind of a. I was almost I'd almost saved up enough to get the flights and to kind of sustain myself for three months in Southeast Asia or six months, and then they gave me the option. They'd basically seen that I was reliable and I was kind of like I suppose I was a good lad with them, you know I was personable, etc. And so they said that we've got somebody going on maternity leave and we just need somebody to answer the phones, would you like that? But it's six months. It would mean that you'd need to put off traveling. So I took that and it's for me it was definitely a sliding doors moment.
Speaker 1:I got then an insight from going to the office every day, what a recruitment consultant does, and I thought, oh, ok, this is exactly like, for the hard I work and the smart I work, the more I get paid. It's like running a race. It's, you know, subjectivity of it. If that's the word, the subjective nature of it disappears and it's the first person to cross the line wins the race. And that was the same with recruitment. So it really appealed to me. And then they started to kind of train me as a recruitment consultant and said OK, instead of going to university, instead of going traveling, you can do your education through us and we'll bring you on kind of like an apprenticeship with like a business apprenticeship. So that's what I did and that was a big moment of me kind of not going, traveling and deciding to go at it. But yeah, kind of by luck, but also I think you make your own luck as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do. I think I come across so many people so often where people say, oh, I was just lucky. But it's also about being prepared to take on that opportunity and make the most of it. And you know, we often said you know this sliding doors moment. But it is these, I guess, pivotal points in our life whereby you could have just gone, taking the easy path, which was do what you had, the plan. I'm set, I'm going here, but it's like, oh well, let me take this job, let's see what happens. And you were prepared to delay that gratification to get overseas, to get that deeper experience, and that's really what opened things up for you. That's fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think as I look at it now the lessons you learn in sport are so much more important, especially in those early years below 16, the discipline, the hard work, what you put in you get out, the failing, like you just said, the delayed gratification kind of the teamwork, et cetera. You get all that from sport and sort of as long as you go into class and you're listening, together with that sports education, you gather a lot of skills that are very useful for companies and so for you, you know.
Speaker 2:you continued to, I guess, develop in that corporate world. You got that insight into corporate what was happening for you sport-wise, at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I still lived and breathed football at that time and I was going to the gym because you're 18 in Manchester, so you need to look good at the weekend and you want to be big and you want to be muscular for the girls, etc. So I fell into that kind of crazy world of what success really is. So I was doing sport as a hobby, I guess, and I kind of let go of it, which was hard, and other things had replaced it, like partying and other vices, and that wasn't great. But it kind of fell hand in hand with a recruitment career which is not so dissimilar to that kind of financial world in London or New York where people kind of like to let off steam. And so, yes, sport has always been a factor in my life. But at that point I kind of switched my vision of success from the people I idolised in football to and running to. Okay, what does success look in my environment? Okay, so people are driving nice cars, wearing nice suits, and they've got the right shoes and watches on and they have a nice apartment in the 6th cent of Manchester. So that's what I aimed for, and so all that materialism was just kind of injected into my life because that's what I was chasing.
Speaker 1:I was chasing, I suppose, the validation of my dad, who had seen me not going to university and following the regular path. He'd seen that as a massive failure because it was quite easy for me to go to university and me even suggesting that I wanted to go travelling after college was a massive crossing in the box for my dad and he was like what are you playing with? You getting behind? So I suppose I was seeking that validation by you know, driving a sports car and having a nice watch and apartment in the 6th centre. But in actual fact, I completely turned my dad off. My dad was like you're a yuppie. That's why he would describe me as, which is kind of like well, I can't win here, I can't be a footballer, I'm not good enough, I don't think, to be a runner at the time, and you know I can't win in business either. So it's a fun time, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. So it's fun, isn't it? What you describe there is that switching success. You know, or at least the switching, your definition of success, and this time it goes from being that athlete playing for one of the Manchester teams playing for Oldham perhaps depends how die hard you support Oldham, but you know going and playing football or running and then you say, alright, well, I'll be a businessman and I'll start emulating what success looks like there and behaving, buying in that way. But if it's not for you doing it for your dad, it just doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that was a byproduct to it, like it was kind of like okay, I found myself, luckily, in a career that exactly matches sport in terms of the metrics, the work ethic. I can't think of a situation where I sit next to a fella who is clocking in at 9 o'clock, clocking out at 5 o'clock and we're getting paid the same, even though I'm getting in there at 7, leaving later, working harder, working smarter and winning more business. I can't think of a situation like that. So I've fallen into a career that exactly matched my competitive nature and also selects like a lot of kind of consultation rules or sales rules, like that. It selects sports people for those very reasons. As a byproduct, it was like okay, dad, look, you know, look what I'm doing. It hasn't all gone badly. I didn't need university, I'm on the right path, I'm studying, I'm earning money and I'm looking after myself.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you know, I mean, since we've had conversations and he kind of respects that I wanted a different journey to him, so that's all good. But yeah, I mean, he'd still give me a good talking to you if I came third in a race.
Speaker 2:Just thinking about that and sport. I love the like you say. You landed in an environment that continued to develop or sharpened your competitive edge. You find yourself in recruitment. It's in sales. One of the beautiful things about that profession is you can see very clearly on a leaderboard where you stand, where you are at, and you understand what it takes to be successful in. Either you put that time in hours, partying, whatever it might be, or you don't, and you'll see yourself slide down that board, so it's really on off in terms of in that regard. So, whilst that's going on, that because I'm what's interesting here is, for many, when we talk about elite sport, it is something that you have to have done from a young age and continue to hone that, whilst you're developing and it becomes your life, that's all you do. What you're describing here, though, is one whereby, well, there's a competitive edge that's continued to hone, but you take your eye off literally the ball in terms of sport. So how did that start to weave its way back in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I guess it's all. It's always there. You don't go the traditional route. I mean it's additional route as a distance runner, professional distance runner is you've got at high school, you go to college, get selected maybe for collegiate planning in America, and then there's quite an easy link in America to a professional team. You get picked up by Nike or Brooks or something like that. In the UK we've got a great amateur system, but there's not an easy link. So it would have meant university in America.
Speaker 1:And so I've met lots of those people at training camps and it's funny to see that somebody who's not known anything else apart from competitive sport all their life versus like me. I've kind of like, been into business Seven years into business and then I, by that point, after a few years, I thought I okay, I can do this on my own. Why am I working for a company and giving away such a big percentage when I can work myself and earn more and then start to grow a business? And I underestimated everything else that was involved in in running a business, not just recruiting. So there was a crash in the market I want to say 2008 and I went cycle touring in Asia.
Speaker 1:So I eventually took that traveling but went cycle touring in Asia, so based myself in Thailand and went all over Laos, cambodia, vietnam, as I've said, and into Singapore, and then on that journey it was only meant to be a few months, but it turned into a year and I spent a lot of time on my own and a lot of time just waking up at the crack of dawn and Cycling as far as I could that day to reach the next Hostel or hotel or like the worst hotels you could possibly imagine in the world, for maybe two, three dollars a night. But they weren't worth it. You know that bad, but you were so exhausted that it didn't matter. You're just happy to have somewhere to stay.
Speaker 1:And when you kind of in that state, you begin to ask yourself questions, and the questions that I was asking myself was am I doing what I love? Am I doing what? Without getting religious, but it was definitely a spiritual awakening it's like, am I doing what I'm put on this earth to do? And the answer is I really love what I do in recruitment and I feel I'm good at it because of all those sporting reasons. But what I really should be doing is becoming a runner. That's what I'm really good at. So at the end of what one of my last Cycle tours from Bangkok to Singapore, I decided along that journey that okay, I'm gonna get back. I'm gonna. This was the end of 2009. I'm gonna get back to my house in Thailand. I'm gonna start running, and so I flew back from Singapore to my house in Thailand, started running. Thought I'd go out for an hour. Run lasted 400 meters and was exhausted.
Speaker 1:None of that cycle fitness that translated into running fitness. It doesn't know no, and so, but I had that fire in my belly now that, well, I know I was, I was good at this, I can be good again, so it was. Then it became okay how quickly can I reach my potential? And then it started to become quite serious for me, because it was all I thought about and all I was about for Since then, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first of what, what got you Overseas again in the first place? What made you say now's the right time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was working for a big recruitment company in the UK. I got to, you know, head on to the couple of times to work for a big company. Then I left that company and moved to Norway. I wanted to set up an oil division in my company. It wasn't available and that's why there was a contract obligation and I needed to move overseas. I moved to Norway and Set up a company there. I was so naive and so Arrogant and so kind of just saw everything that I touched so far had worked. So why would this not? And I got lucky. I got really lucky in Norway and kind of tapped into a market that hadn't developed recruiting wise. It was still very reactive in terms of like, put a job on a and an advertising board and and hope that the right candidate applies. And our method in the UK is very much get a great candidate. He offered them to five roles, place the candidate. So all of a sudden I was doing great and that lasted a couple of years, but I left. I left the UK in 2007. So I've been outside the UK 16 years and and then I moved to Norway, realized that I couldn't scale the company from there, so moved after a year to Spain and wanted to set up.
Speaker 1:At the time a lot of recruiters were going from the UK to Sydney, where you are now, because for the weather, big recruitment market in Sydney. And then or they were going to Dubai and at that time, 1560 years ago, it was still very strict here in Dubai. So my thought was okay, I'm gonna set up in a company in the, the most fun city I've ever been to, which is Barcelona. It's in the sun, it's only two hours away from home, so it stops the problems that some of the people in Sydney somebody UK people in Sydney had of kind of 24 hours Getting home, it's not strict like Dubai, and so that was the idea. And then the market crashed. So now, kind of fast forward 10 years or however long it is. Now I'm trying to rebuild the exact model. So yeah, it's 16 years I've been outside the UK.
Speaker 2:For the short answer so we're going from you as Sports a hobby, you're going down this recruitment world. You're doing well, you're pushing forward there. You then things take a bit of a downturn, at least. But you then traveling. So when was it give me the year, what? When were you on your bike and you said right, I'm getting home, I'm going to become a runner?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's Christmas 2008. I left to Thailand Christmas, from 20th to the 21st of December 2009 to the literally the New Year's Eve 2009. I rode from Bangkok to Singapore. Literally, I was meant to do it in 20 days, but a friend of mine in Singapore said that I'm having New Year's Eve party. If you can pedal fast enough and enough kilometers a day, you can come to the party, and and that's what I did. I did it in 10 days, and then it was literally the third or fourth of January 2010. I went for my first run after a long time a long time, yeah, since I was probably 18.
Speaker 2:So what made you think you'd be any good, then I?
Speaker 1:had no clue other than the fact that just a stubborn Person, without wanting to swear. So when I listen to Goggins now, goggins is not a good runner, he's just got the mentality of an insane beast. And so when I got back into running, I very quickly realized that that could be my forte, because I don't give up and I will do everything. It takes all the little factors, and there might be a hundred of them. I'll put everything in place to be competitive, up the distance that I need to be in order to make this work as a Professional career for myself.
Speaker 2:What did you change in your lifestyle, in your work, in your day-to-day diary To reach your, to reach your peak?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question. So when I got back 2010, I got back to sort of March April, obsessed about running. I completely stopped drinking in 2009 when I went cycle touring which is a big factor for me it's up to all the party and and all that kind of stuff Then I very quickly realized that this is what I want to do professionally. So how can I do it professionally? So then it was a case of I need to go back into recruitment and I need to gather enough money to. I'm not good enough to get sponsored or get a pro contract, so I need to gather enough money to be able to do this full-time For nine months, 12 months, so I can get reach my potential in running. And that year was 2013. So I've saved enough.
Speaker 1:In 2010, 2011, 2012, I'd saved us enough in 2013 to say right, I back myself, moved to a tiny flat in Granada in the south of Spain, which you know was in the mountains, that altitude, the right conditions to get the best out of myself, and Just gave it everything I got. And I made all the mistakes as well. I kind of over trained because I had all this time available. I was no longer doing a job and, like the year before that. I worked for a company that I didn't really want to work for and I was showing up. I was the type of person that I didn't like working with. So I was showing up and I was collecting the check. I was going through the motions, but I didn't have my full energy, didn't have my full heart, because that was all going to running. So I was obsessed with. I was running before work, I was going to the gym after work. I was running sometimes twice a day, and my work was just getting like 20% of me, and I didn't feel good about that.
Speaker 1:When I backed myself and had enough money to go in 2013, then I started to reach out to companies when I thought that my times were good enough to say right, this is what I've done so far, this is my potential, this is what am I worth to you and I have. The thing that I had is because I've worked in recruitment. I was able to handle the business side myself, so I was able to make those approaches. Make sure my CV and my portfolio was good enough so that, and then make sure that I knew that it was a numbers game. So, instead of reaching out to five companies. That would be 500 companies and then, very quickly, like, we had Twitter, didn't we? And we had, and we had Facebook and then Instagram 2015, 2016, I think. So that became a big part of the game as well, especially when you're you're not playing football every week, but you're running maybe six, six races a year. That becomes a big part of your game. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess, just for everyone else listening as well, when we your decision to become a runner, you're not talking about a hundred meters, and when we're talking distances, you're still not talking about, you're not talking track here. So what type of running did you? I'm still gonna say foolishly just believe, I'm making this, I'm backing myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a bit of an idiot like this. So I thought, okay, I started 4th of January, it's 2010. Then I did a 5k. When I got back to Manchester Park Run, it was like 1850 or something like that and I thought that's pretty good, but I can do better. And then if three weeks later I did 1630, so that the natural talent was coming back after about four or five months, then it is 10k Manchester Bupa 10k and it's 3950 there are thereabouts. And then I thought to myself Somebody told me about our alter race of 50k or pill, and I that was the third time, a first time I'd heard about ultra running.
Speaker 1:And then I thought that suits me down to the ground and so I went to a racing thing. But I thought, after doing that 10k in months, in less than 40 minutes, I thought all I need to do is train and I can be the British champion in a hundred k. If I can run the same speed for ten of those 10k's and do a hundred k, I can be the British champion. And that was my crazy logic. But it worked.
Speaker 2:I Was gonna say well, mathematically, yeah, sure, forget the body, forget physiology with it, but just mathematically. Well, if I can do it in three minutes, multiply it out, I'm done. I like it, though. But what's interesting is, you know, you still took that dream, you still took that idea, because here it's almost a Reverse transition into it, where you are reverse transition in the sense normally I talk about pure sport into that life after the game.
Speaker 2:What you've just described there is Well, I'm working, I'm taking the skills that I've got as a recruiter, so working in a, in a corporate world, and you are using that to fund your or to fund and to manage the process of becoming a professional athlete. And so, rather than going to a club you mentioned us, night Brooks, whatever it might be you actually did the work yourself, projected out what it would take for you to live and train in that location and back to yourself, and just jumped and said right, I'm gonna do this. I love that. It's crazy, especially as it's I'm back myself to do ultra running because I'm good at a 5k. But you went ahead and you, and that's exactly what you did.
Speaker 1:Yes, I really appreciate that, but I don't think it's like a leap of faith or something like that. I think the opposite. I think there'd be more regret if I didn't do it, if I didn't have my hat in the ring and go for it. I would have regret. They would not if for me it wasn't a leap of faith, it was just the worst. What's the worst that can happen? We're from a very privileged country that gives you free, free healthcare, free education. That's pretty safe, some form of democracy. And if you shouldn't, if you can't kind of risk stuff like that and go for it, no, in full world that you've already built a skill, set up to retreat to should it all go badly. And then the worst thing that can happen is.
Speaker 3:I had a year. I gave it my best didn't work, let's.
Speaker 1:Let's do what does work. And it's exactly the same at the end of your career which I'm going through now to go back into recruitment or back into business in some form, because you know all the skills in sport Worked in business and you know all the skills in business worked in sport. So it's just changing your systems and habits to Optimize what you're doing in that moment whether that's for or work here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that. What I like is the systems and habits. You know you talk about that and you know the way. You've already started describing your system of Revenue projecting and then your I guess, initially Simple enough system or habits in terms of well, if I run this speed, I replicate that a train, but you learn how to train better. Your systems and habits improved as you progress. I mean, just how good is it for you then as a runner, because you've got some awesome records and achievements.
Speaker 1:For me it literally live the dream for the last 10 years and, like we said before, it's only when you kind of have these opportunities to talk like this that you're like well, hold on a minute, that was a really amazing wild ride. I can't kind of dismiss that. You definitely have ups and downs, for sure, but the ups and the funny thing is, as you know, like the higher the up that the lower the down and kind of it's. But it's not straight line progress and it's kind of like a bumpy territory and you have to put in a lot of those 10,000 hours initially. Then, all of a sudden, something clicks and for me it was like from starting running in 2010 to you know, actually everything coming together in 2017, you know, and before that I turned pressure professional term, professionally, just having people who sponsor you in which is that in distance running From 2014. But then everything clicked in 2017. I set some course records, won the British championships, got selected for England, then got selected for Great Britain. Those things like shouldn't happen to somebody who we came back into the sport at 27 years old. So, defeating the odds and then winning the races that mean the most to me, those have been my highlights and if I talk to other runners, they'll say surely that victory was better than that victory.
Speaker 1:No, and for me it's nothing to do with kind of the status of the race or how competitive it was.
Speaker 1:It's like there's a race that I went to in 2010 called subito veleta, in south of Spain, and it's literally 50 kilometers uphill from Granada to the peak of veleta and I just trained for that in 2010, trying to finish it, just trying to finish them less than the quarter power, eight hours, and I finished it and instantly knew that this is my calling, this is what I meant to do. And I remember looking at the guys on the podium and looking at these physiques, which were freak physiques, kind of no, upper body like upper body like cyclists and then these legs that were just like from a Greek mythology, and so I was like I want to be like that, not only train towards it, but fully committed and move into Granada to train on the race course and then winning the race eventually in 2017. That's better than any British championship or GB vest, because it was the Kind of the icing on the cake or the cherry on the top for a full journey, not just a race. So yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:I mean that race. What you described there is that race. That was for you. That was that intrinsic motivation, that was the spark that Inspired you, that made you feel this was where you want to be. As silly as it sounds, the England vest, the GB vest, was, to an extent, representing someone else. It wasn't representing you and your dream and your race. What was super fascinating, though, is is also the. I Always look for that Knowing.
Speaker 2:You need to learn what is valuable, what is important to succeed right, and Often that comes from you know, as you say starting the, finding the right systems, adopting the best habits, and Often it's from seeing someone you admire or seeing a process at work and think, oh, that's brilliant. When you speak to rowers and they talk about the sound of the water as the eights whooshing through and it's interesting to hear that you looked at the physique of these runners, that you know you said freakish and said, right, boom, that's one of the things. That's what it's gonna take in order for me to win. I've got to look a bit like that. That's where it is.
Speaker 2:And then you adopted that process and it's a bit like even when you spoke in recruitment. You knew what it took to win. What do I need to do? What's important next? How am I going to drive and get the right sales? And even with the arrogance, but it lands and it and it sort of works. And so I hear that again, that that repeating pattern In the way that you define success and you move and then you sort of go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think all these systems and and habits and processes that you need to build in to Enable you to get to a level of success that comes from you changing your identity and changing your idols. And so when I'm looking at those guys on the podium and admiring males- legs which is a funny thing to do.
Speaker 1:I'm not seeing them for like, oh, I really want to look like them. I'm like I can see the the years of dedication that it's taken in order for them to get to where they've got to, and that's what really appealed. In the same way, like you just said, in recruitment, it's like you take those sports skills. So if, whether you're playing football with you, basketball or running kind of okay, let's go and see who's taking a free kick or doing a jump shot Well, or you know who's got some past times in the 1500 meters, let's go and train with them.
Speaker 1:It's exactly the same in recruitment and work. It's like let's see who's doing the best here going work with them. What are they? They must be doing something different. Let's go and work with them for a week and make that request, because that request will never be turned down Because your, your managers and your directors know what you're doing. It's also kudos and status for the person who you're gonna go in shadow, and you can learn so much just from kind of going Through that person's motions. So all these things are transferable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, yeah, they really are. That's great and, like you say, people are nearly always open to help. If you're saying how do you do what you do and they don't need to do much more, but just share, and you know, finding people who do that is wonderful. Now you said 2017, everything gelled. It came together At that top. You know you defined success what the race was. Well, actually, no, let me just check what was success for you. How had your definition of success shifted from the cars and the parties that you had way back in Manchester?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it had gone completely away from material to success is freedom and you have the choice to do whatever you want whenever you want. So nothing to do with how much you've got in your bank or what car you drive or whether you've got the right watch, it's all to do with. Can I do whatever I want any day of the week? And that's what I've had for the last 10 years Since I turned pro. I've always been able to kind of live between Granada, in the south of Spain, and Chiang Mai in the north of Thailand and do whatever I want. I've never had a coach or a manager, which there's an argument there whether I could have gone further if I would but I love that freedom of just being able to do whatever I want to do anytime.
Speaker 1:That's the shift that changed. And then the definition of success for me was that race was such a great curve, but that was the start of success. So it was kind of okay, you've done this race that you set out to do, you've set the course record, you've won the race. Now that's led to two other things and other successes, and then since then I've won all the races, set other course records and yeah, it kind of I was able to put a line under that race and just say, okay, you've done that. Now you don't have to obsess over that, you can go and do other things, which is quite interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It is because achieving that for you, as we've described it, it was well. It was almost giving you a bit more freedom. Actually, achieving that race gave you then the freedom to go and enjoy other things, but you had to get to that first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a crazy world distance running because there's not the financial rewards like other sports. There's probably in the UK, I would say there's between probably no more than 10 athletes in distance running earning more than six figures, which is startling considering other sports. So you really have to be in it for the love of it. And what I loved in Granada training for that race months before the race is I knew that if I got fit for 50K uphill I would be fit for any other race that I did and that's what worked really well for me and training, the altitude and the heat, etc. Making it as difficult as possible would make everything else easier.
Speaker 1:But the moment that I love it is hitchhiking down the hill after running up for three hours on a Sunday afternoon and only hikers are coming back down the mountain because it's a ski mountain in the winter but there's nothing going up there apart from hiking in the summer and just stood there on the side of the road, no shirt on, just trying to film a lift. It's really comical, but that's what is necessary in order for you to succeed. And definitely there's no girlfriend or friend who's going to pick me up because it's like, well, what's in it for me and maybe other people have had coaches or managers that picked them up, but for me, it was like let's go for this.
Speaker 1:If we're doing it, we're all in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, there was a gentleman who came on this show, Jim Roddy, and one of his big points of success was the winners always run uphill. They run uphill meaning they'll take the harder path, they'll make it harder. And for you, as you said, that training uphill altitude in heat made everything harder or made it very hard there, but then that made every other race actually that little bit easier in some respects. So at what point did you start to realise, okay, this isn't going to continue now, I'm not going to continue to get the full sponsorship from everybody else for the rest of my life. I'm not necessarily going to get the same success that I've had over this period. How did that occur?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was never the money for me, so it was never kind of sponsorships, whether I was with Nike or Kraft, like I know. It's never about that. It's like, okay, a runner kind of wants to go to the races that they want to go to, so you want that pain for because you don't want to think, okay, I've got to pay $5,000 to potentially go somewhere and succeed or fail, but the pressure's on more than ever. So you want to have that freedom to go to the right races and that really helps.
Speaker 1:But COVID here and I was with Nike and we started to do some stuff online which was like motivational stuff. I'd interview different people from different sports people that had the crazy stories about being addicted to something and then kind of coming out the other side and how they ran every day or did triathlon. Ronny Osulovan was on there and how he loved to run and how he almost gave up snooker to start running and I loved that because it was kind of being useful to the running community. But a lot of people who would kind of approach me in those times to get better. They were motivated extrinsically.
Speaker 1:So there was all the races were being canceled and postponed, so we needed to do that with Nike to keep people motivated at home and that was quite alien to me because my motivations are intrinsic, so I do it for the love of doing it and to see if I can push myself as hard. So that COVID was an opportunity for me to work on my weaknesses. And there's like eight different areas whether it's kind of diet, nutrition, weight training, et cetera, psychology, sleep, all those different things to make kind of the optimal person. And I thought if I can move just 1% up in each area, that's going to give an exponential improvement. And if you can get stronger in the gym in the glutes, then my stride length is going to be longer, which is going to mean my 10K time is faster, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And I went through that and then I kind of like I won a big race 2022. And then there was still cancellations going on and performance. So I was training for a big race in New Zealand. So I was training in Thailand getting ready for New Zealand and at the very last minute that was cancelled in 2022. And so I changed the plan and flew from Bangkok to Dubai, dubai to.
Speaker 3:San.
Speaker 1:Diego San Diego to Phoenix drove up to Flagstaff to run a race there and it was a 100KM race and I fell after 7KM and badly injured myself and it was like I had to either go back 7KM, hobble back because it was a trail race, or get to the next aid station, which was about 2 hours away. Running or hobbling, and within that 2 hours I'd already made the decision like, okay, enough's enough. You need to go to the next level of your life now, which is you've got to get your act together and you've got to start making real money and business has got to become important again. And, yes, you can still run and compete, but maybe not at the level that you were supposed to do. And then shortly, literally before I left America, so within 3 days, I called 3 people, got 3 offers to work in partnerships or set up new divisions, and then I decided on one and we and before I got on the flight on the way to back home to Thailand, I'd written a business plan for a year, so what the first year would do and what I needed to do, kpis and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So it was just literally that race was a big one and there was a lot of frustration before then. For a lot of athletes no races. And then sponsors started to kind of be strict on athletes. Nike let go of a lot of people during that time, which I felt it was really unfair, because they'd realized that everybody's at home buying stuff on the phone, so sales are going through the roof, but so we don't need the athletes because they're not being viewed competing. So they let go of a lot of people and that didn't sit well with me and so I thought, okay, well, if this is not looking after you, you've got to kind of look after yourself. So I wanted to get on to the next stage of my life, still competitive, and I had another win a couple of months after that in Italy, which is probably like another, one of my best victories.
Speaker 1:So that came with a bit of sense of false security, because I thought, okay, I'm working 60 hours a week. It sat down at a laptop and I'm doing my training, and two months later I've won one of the biggest races I've won. So it must work, I can do both. But that was the fitness I kind of gathered over the last 10 years, not the kind of the two months working like a dog. So what I've kind of learned is and I knew this already, but we all know this you have to be hyper focused in one area to get to the top. And so whatever you're trying to do, whether it's 20 hours a week, 10 hours, it's going to detract what your real job is. And running is 20% running, 80% recovery. But that 80% recovery is the big part and that's what most people get wrong. So, yeah, that was the big change for me.
Speaker 2:Literally within a race and within 20 miles, I decided that two hour hobble made you well, perhaps brought to life what had been not bubbling away, simmering away through COVID, through not running through, not racing, and from a conversation understanding, well, the mind had to wander and figure out, well, what am I going to do? And I think that then but we have, it's funny, I'm going to be using the two hour hobble. I'm going to make that into analogy, I'll use with others now and say, well, it's a bit like hobbling for two hours. What would you think during that period? How will your life change?
Speaker 1:And that's what you went through, yeah, and it was painful, like I thought I broke my foot. I twisted my knee and ankle, so it was a serious hobble. But and you've gone out fast, so you've got people passing you all the time, so that takes you down and down and down. But in that time it's like, what am I doing? I've just done a 35 hour flight. It's day three of me being here. I still don't know what day it is. And then I'm starting on the start line. What am I doing? I'm chasing. I'm trying to chase victories and trying to trace performances in order to show sponsors that I'm still here, whereas probably they'd prefer if I just made a few selfies on Instagram, you know and that, and that's the reality of it these days. So it's yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, and so talking about that, so running, what's happening is your, that focus in terms of running, which was 100%, essentially, was what you did. How has that now shifted?
Speaker 1:So first year, so from March last year, 2022, to the end of the year, so pretty much nine months figuring everything out. It was figuring out okay. Well, even though running only takes 20% of my time, that 80%, it's kind of like it takes 20% of my time and 80% of my time, so I can only give 20% of my energy to recruitment and when that's making new business development calls, etc. To build a business, you need to be nimble and kind of like fresh and energetic, and so it's kind of been a time management job of like when should I be doing the important part of my tasks? When I'm wiped out on my big training days, I can be doing my admin or resting completely. So it's been again. It's slotting back into discipline, making sure the enthusiasm is there because you're not wiped out from the session and trying to kind of work those two together, which first nine months, was really tough.
Speaker 2:What was hardest about trying to get that balance during that first nine months.
Speaker 1:The hardest bit was letting go of being a top level runner. That's the hardest part Knowing that you're going like. I went to a race at the end of last year a couple of races. It was September and I knew before getting there I know what it takes to do to win this race and I know that I've not done it. That's really tough because you cannot escape this competitive nature. To go there and know that you've not got what it takes in order to compete, it's really difficult to readjust and to let go. I've needed to pick the races that I know I can compete in and do fewer of them and do well, rather than try to do what I used to be able to get to the start line and win it or come near the front. That's the tough part, letting go.
Speaker 2:How did you deal with that?
Speaker 1:I'm still dealing with it, even in 2010 at the Manchester 10K, when I was 27,. I'd not run for nine years, but the last races that I had done, I'd won them On the Manchester 10K.
Speaker 3:There's Mo Farah there there's Hayley Gabri Cilessi.
Speaker 1:I'm well back in 40,000 people and I've got all the butterflies in my stomach. I'm supposed to win this race. My mind is still there, but my body's not there yet. Now to readjust it and to be like, okay, you'll always have running in your life because I love it. It's the first thing I do when I wake up. You have to realise that you're. I've spoken to my business culture about this. How much of you do you want to give to your sport and how much do you want to give to business? Those ratios have to give at some point and you have to be willing to let go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, have you let go, no, no.
Speaker 1:I'm. It's a work in progress.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, what else would you then say you've had to let go or you're working towards letting go, now that your that shift, that balance is becoming more to the A guest to your business, to growing that business, what else would you let go?
Speaker 1:So that's a good question. Yeah, and I think the useful answer to your viewers, and the truthful answer as well, is you have to set yourself up for success in every situation. So if I'm running two hours a day or an hour a day easy on an easy day, and three hours a day or a long run, then I can kind of fit the long run into the weekend. That's that. But then Monday to Friday I've got to be on it, which means the Wednesday is going to be a hard session. The other days it's going to be recovery. Where can I be in the world in order to make that work? Then that was here like four hours ahead of the UK. So I can do this in the morning, the running, and then by the time it's 12 o'clock and I'm ready to finish training and get on the phone. It's eight o'clock in the UK. So you can do things like that. And then you've got to have your time management and discipline set out for an a day plan set out for each activity, and then you've just got to rewire your habits again. So it's like rewiring your habits from business to sport, rewiring your habits again as you get better and you focus more of your energy and time into that and then refocusing again back into business and rewiring your habits. So it's you know what you need to do. But I think that's the thing, and environments are big. It's always been a big win for me.
Speaker 1:I've never understood how people would stay in the UK if they want to be a top level runner, like you would want to be altitude, maybe, and you want to be in the sun, just that you're not having to.
Speaker 1:I always hear about runners kind of oh, I just went out in December, it's minus one maybe, and I've done my 20 mile and it's so difficult and the ground is slippy, et cetera. It's like, well, you're a professional runner, which means you've got to be all in. You're not stuck to a team in Manchester. You could be anywhere you want in the world, so why not go where it's optimal for your progress? So for me that was an easy decision of Granada and maybe it was lucky with that first ultra race that I did Chiang Mai, because I've visited that when I was cycle touring. I knew that that was the perfect place when it got cold in Spain. So November, december, january, february, I would be in Chiang Mai and that would be like okay, more time on the bike, it's supplements, the long distance running, and then just a better climate.
Speaker 2:I'm always in the sun, so, again, when it comes to race day, it's easier because, like you say, you're running uphill running in the heat, so, yeah, yeah, I talk about it a lot and you keep saying it is that understand what it takes to be successful and then adjust so that you can optimize for that, and I love it. So I'll just live for hours time zone difference so I can get up and run and still work the normal a day that is based out of the UK, the UK market. I just think it's good. To what extent do you think you've had to sacrifice in order to make that success happen?
Speaker 1:There is a big one, and whoever is listening to this will be able to relate. I think when you go into professional sports you have to be, especially in an individual sport, you have to be selfish. It's not you and the team, it's just you and you're trying to get as far as you possibly can so you become you're not yourself, you're not your true person. So I've not. I wasn't right in relationships and friendships. I've missed weddings, I've not been and visited my parents as much as I should, because I've been all in in what I'm trying to be. So you have to say you cannot be yourself. Like now I can start to relax a little bit.
Speaker 1:I was at a wedding about a month ago and it's like oh okay, this is what it feels like. So you do have to sacrifice that. But in terms of if it was a football career, everyone would understand because you'd have lots of money coming into your bank and you'd be set up for life if you manage your money correctly, and the next stage of your life you'd have plenty of options, because it's not a great money sport. It's always more difficult to justify why you're missing my wedding. It's only, you're only running for England in Canada. Why are you not staying towards to the end of a wedding? Because you know. Why can't you drink, don't understand these things. So you're never going to have that full understanding. But if you know yourself and if you've got your, your identity set of who you want to be and the person you want to be cloned, those decisions are quite easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the reason, the reason when it aligns with those values that ease your value of life or how you want to live and, like you said, there's not as much effort that's put into it because you see it as that natural path. Well, this is what I have to do in order to achieve what I want to achieve, so I'll just go ahead and do it. For many, that's a challenge. What you are talking about is well. For you it was something that was innate, it was something you're able to do and I think for many, as you're saying there elite level athletes, players they have that you say selfishness, others would say a sharpened focus towards making it happen.
Speaker 2:But I get what you mean and I'm sure those listening will get what you mean when you talk about it in that way. Funny that you've, you're only just realizing how good weddings are. You know it's never too late. But coming on to where you're at today, then I mean so, running your business, living between a few wonderful locations around the world, I mean that's a lifestyle for many that continues to be a dream. Do you feel you're still living the dream?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah. You know I'm about to go to Thailand because I'm training for a race and that gives me seven hours on the UK, so it gives me extra time to train and I'm doing exactly what I love. Like when we talked about a leap of faith to go into running at 27, I still loved what I was doing before. I still love recruitment. I love it's weird when you're doing both, because you're getting positive feedback from both areas and very, very different feedback. So in the beginning it was actually focusing on my business, was helping my running and vice versa. And running is perfect for anybody in a job, in a work environment or running their own business, because it's that kind of clearing your head, it's the meditation, it's the, you know, keeping physically fit and energetic. So that will always be part of my life. But going to like hit the running hard this year and see what it brings. So I'd be really really specific on the races that I'm doing and being non-negotiable on those and and yeah, and give everything to my business as well.
Speaker 2:So wonderful Look, I could. Just a couple more questions, then one if there's one thing that you could change in your history and your life, at life experience, but still end up where you are today and as having this conversation, what would that one thing be? Yeah, there's nothing.
Speaker 1:I could change. I think you can look back and say, okay, if I would have had a coach, maybe they would have. One thing that I certainly made mistakes on is I would over train for races. So there's a couple of world championships when I've gone in there as the favorite but I've got injured two, three weeks before. And those are stupid sessions that with hindsight you know exactly what you've done wrong. But you've wanted to be greedy with fitness and so you've not. You were there but you wanted a little bit more and you're feeling in the shape of your life because you're almost peaking for the race and I've kind of overdone it. So those are the things that I regret and those have allowed me to.
Speaker 1:If I had six goals, I've hit four of them and the two that I've not hit is world record in world champion in the 100 K and those two things I was ready to do twice and I've not done it because I've over trained and what I learned from that is, if I'm on the start line at 80% fitness, I've got a chance. So then I kind of for the last five years it's been like, well, just get to the start line and then you've got a chance. But if you injured you can't even begin the race. So I wish, maybe I wish I could have learned that sooner. And the root of that is the lack of confidence. So it's like, well, I, even these guys are training like this, these guys ran this time these guys. And it's like, well, no, no, focus on your own game and as fast as you can be, but don't go beyond that kind of stretch the elastic band. But don't go beyond that Otherwise, because running is not like business and burnout. You'll learn very quickly if it's gone too far.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, literally your hamstring will snap at that moment. What is interesting is the fact that you've got a business coach. Why a business coach when you didn't have an athletic coach?
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's really funny. Actually I've never thought of that, but I guess it's because the first nine months trying to do both, it was very difficult for me to okay like how can I make both work? And it felt for quite a while like I was doing both in a mediocre way. So it was like, well, how can I optimize both to make them work? And so that's when it started, and then it really helped a lot so I continued with it. So it's a really good point. It almost sets me up to say, well, I knew what I was doing in running, but I don't know what I'm doing in business. But it was to try to gain clarity, I guess.
Speaker 2:What I find is, as athletes, we have a confidence. We have a confidence in our ability on the right track, on the right race and the right sport, the right day. It's like I'm not doing and you can get very much in that zone and we have the confidence that comes with that. I think what I recognize is when we step away from that point of sport of comfort into anything else, there is this dip that comes and it's like well, hold on, I'm not getting feedback in the same way, because when we run, when we train, we get instant feedback. When we then move into business, we don't get that instant feedback. We seek it. We have to go to our boss hey, can we catch up? How did it go? And they're like I will chat at your annual appraisal. No, and I know right now looking at my data.
Speaker 2:So I think often when we leave sport and we move into this different realm or go back into it or it has a different purpose, seeking feedback not just validation, but seeking feedback becomes vital. And so hearing you say you have a business coach when you run your own business, how do you get feedback? How does that come through? Yes, you can listen to clients, absolutely. You could look at numbers, but often having that other voice with you gives you that feedback, lets you know all right, what can you do, what can you see? I've got an idea, but you get that second opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think you running is a lonely sport anyway. Yeah, I've got a lot of time on my own and a lot of time on my own on the bike as well, and I think the same in business. If you're going to do it on your own, the older you get, the harder it is to find people that are going to match you as a business partnership. Very, very difficult to find partners. So you've got to accept that it's going to be lonely and you're not going to get that pattern of back for quite some time. But as you rework that, I think and you know, I will hire high performers in sport to be recruitment consultants for my business. Then you can flip that and be like right, what is this person used to? Okay, regular feedback, Okay.
Speaker 1:So, that person works like that and then it's finding the needs of each individual employee and getting them to work almost like a coach, in exactly the same way that sport works from a coaching, mentorship point of view, so that you get in the best out of those people. And I think if you can get past that first couple of years it's always going to be tough Then you can really thrive and I think that's why you see top people like Michael Jordan, shaq, david Beckham. There's loads of people that not just a lot of those people have been able to have the money to surround themselves with good coaches and mentors, but they've also kind of put the same systems in place.
Speaker 2:To find what it takes to be good and prepared to put in the effort to make it happen.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Then it becomes really fun. And that's how it should be, because nobody wants to go to work to a bad job. They want to go and work in a good environment, good culture and feel that they're moving forward, just like in sport.
Speaker 2:Lee. I think you're right, Lee, listen. I want to thank you for your time today. As always, I've enjoyed our conversation. I think it's been fascinating. We've touched on some areas, or at least got to some of the perspectives I didn't expect to, which I think is absolutely fantastic. Thanks very much, Lee.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, Really really enjoyed it, Cheers mate.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Saris from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy. I'll see you next time.