the training centre for Marines and the draft that I was put into was actually to simulate being the enemy for recruits when they're going into the field. I was quite frustrated because you know, I believe that I've done quite well as a Royal Marine and it wasn't a role that I felt like I could fulfil my true potential in. But before that anyway, I'd started asking questions, like I have a lot of white friends from underprivileged backgrounds that have lived great lives now through being in the Marines and through being in the military, and I don't have many ethnic friends in the same position. Now, my best friend in the Marines we look like brothers, literally look like brothers. I couldn't believe it myself.
Speaker 1:When I first saw him I was like, wow, we do kind of look similar brothers. Couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it myself. When I first saw him I was like, wow, we do kind of look similar, and I was. We ended up buying a house together that we now rent out and the story you know he grew up, got stabbed at 16 from this background and he's done well as well another mixed race lad. So it was like why is that there's not many people that look like us?
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Jordan, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on here today.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to kick this off.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. I'm glad you're excited to kick it off A great thing to hear Always a good guest who is as excited as I am to really talk about. You know from your perspective what it's like to transition, to change careers, as someone who's an elite athlete and moving to something else that you are passionate about, interested about just you know all the same, as when you were playing the game. So thanks for joining me. It's going to be fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, for sure, and I'm excited to share my story and hope that it can help some other people in the future.
Speaker 2:Well, jordan, I suppose one of the bits that I find really interesting about you and your background is the mix that you've had alongside the military, and it's always fascinating for me to speak with individuals, with elite athletes, who have that military experience, because so often we pull them together and we do. You know similarities between when you conclude your career, what it's like from sport into the real world, likewise from being in the military as a moving, as a civvy or moving. You know that sort of thing. Now, for you it's quite different. It's you sort of. For me, you're sort of in the midst of it. It's really where it's happening today. So, jordan, look, I'd love just for you to let us know where are you today, what's happening, what are you at right now?
Speaker 1:so it's a pretty unique and unheard of situation that I'm in, in the fact that you know I have transitioned from elite sports to the military as a Royal Marines commando and then managed to transition back into sport while being a commando. So it's not the the common story, not the common theme that you hear. And then all this alongside having a coaching business as well. So there is a constant transition. I don't think that you ever get used to it, but it does become your normality. So when people say, you know you must be busy all the time, or, for instance, I've trained this morning and then you know, record this podcast and then I'll do some of my coaching works and then I'll do some of my Royal Marines recruitment work and then I'll have another training session later on. But to me that is my norm now and there is a constant transition.
Speaker 1:But I think that is a common theme through life. And if you're always able to, in the Marines we have a saying improvise, adapt and overcome. For me that just speaks about transitioning. And if you're always able to find a way to improvise, find a way to adapt to your new surroundings, new situations, and it means that you can overcome anything and put you in this position. Where were you ready to take everything on? Because I'm also fortunate that that being in all of these roles it's taught me a lot of things, and the standards of elite sport and the standards of Royal Marines Commando are very similar. We hold each each other to a standard, we hold each other accountable and that's what it becomes about. So I think if your life can follow suit in that way, hopefully you can't go far wrong. I mean, we all make mistakes, but I think it's a good thing to have and and be taught yes, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Thanks for sharing that and, like you say, what an interesting position you find yourself in right now. You're getting to do all these different roles all at the same time and what's really interesting is there seems to be this thread that you're able to pull through all of them, that improvisation that you know, adaptability, and you know there seems to be that you know, through each of them, be it being your coaching business, being an elite athlete and also being a being in the military service at the same time, did you, was it intentional, to get to where you are right now?
Speaker 1:no, absolutely not. I think it's as a result of, you know, being able to break into the professional game of basketball and then not actually take it as far as I thought that I would get, and then I always had been a Royal Marine. If basketball doesn't work out, I'll be. I want to join the Royal Marines. That was always in the back of my head.
Speaker 1:I always knew that that was something that I was excited by, something that I always followed, something that I was heavily interested by, but I never actually thought that it would get to the point where you've got to do it, and especially as so many athletes, as you'll know yourself, you really don't have a plan b.
Speaker 1:You've imagined your life, you visualize your life in one way and one way only, and this is where I'm going to get to, and nothing is stopping me and nothing is breaking me off that path, and it's the naivety of youth that allows you to think in that way, but also confidence.
Speaker 1:So it was always in my head, but I would never say it was a firm plan and it got to the point where you know you, you might not be in a team's plans, or, and that was it for me and and it was okay.
Speaker 1:Now you gotta put your money where your mouth is. You always said you'd do this and, to be honest, I actually applied to join the Royal Marines two years before I joined in, and that was purely because I then got offered another basketball contract and I went back to play basketball for another year and then after that, I joined the Marines. So it was something that was just constantly changing, something that was I was always adapting to this new goal and I'd never had one foot in and one foot out. I would definitely say that I was sort of in that mode to achieve everything that I was set out to achieve at that moment. So I do believe that you can commit to multiple things and you've just got to have those firm goals and be able to go after them and strategize it in a way that works out for you.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's an interesting perspective that you've taken on that. Coming back, then you talk about that desire to be in the Marines, the Royal Marines, that desire to be a basketball player as well. I mean, I'm curious, then, as you grew up, if you were asked at 10, 11 years old, what do you want to be when you grow up, what was your response?
Speaker 1:basketball player 100. It will always be a basketball player. For me, that was the number one option. That was the only option. That was the only thing that I ever wanted to do. Basketball was a game that I've been around my whole life. My parents even met through the game. My first toy was a michael jordan figurine that my mum's still not happy to this day. That I've, you know, misplaced we'll call it, not lost still might turn up. So, um, that was what I wanted to be. That was, that was the only option for me, and that was shown in the time and effort that I spent in getting to to where I've been able to, to get to with basketball. So break times and lunch times at school, I'd be in the sports hall. At first the teachers would say, no, can't let you in, you're in supervised, can't let you in. But I was at that door every single day, knocking and knocking, and knocking, and that was all it was about for me. So it was just about improving and getting to this level right and that determination.
Speaker 2:At what point did you realize you were good? When did things start to to change for you in terms of basketball?
Speaker 1:so I actually didn't start playing in the national league till I was under 15s and I started playing at City of Birmingham Rockets and I actually didn't make the team on my first trial and and then this kind of this is my mentality throughout. So I didn't make the team but I got invited back. They did a sort of community session where players that were on right on the border of making the team could come back and get some training in and then if you were good enough, you would then get invited back. So for me that was my goal straight away and then it was just constant work for like a three week period and luckily after three weeks I was invited by the now CEO of the club to come back and be involved with the team.
Speaker 1:So that first year under 15s was very up and down. I was learning to play at this standard. I was sort of felt like I was good but in a very small pond, and then this was completely new exposure for me. Like I was good but in a very small pond, and then this was completely new exposure for me. And then, under 16s, that was when I realized that I can actually start to take over now within this and started to play well and became the go-to guy on my team and for me that was a. That was a really quick transition but, like I say, I literally was in the gym at school every single day. Every break, every lunchtime, I was in there shooting, working, doing whatever I could to get better and it definitely paid off for me. And in my under-16 year I was able to make the England development squad. I had this confidence around me where every shot that I took I felt like it was going to go in. Everything that I did, I felt like it was going to work for me. I felt like anybody that I defended was not going to be able to to go past me. And again, naivety of youth sometimes, inevitably, when you play against great players, even at that young age, you get what we call in basketball, you get cooked. Sometimes it doesn't go the way that you planned it, but I still had that confidence that I could go out and fulfill my role on the floor and it led to me having a starting role on a team that would make the national playoffs, national semifinals, and that it was the under 16s and actually what I would say is becoming good at basketball. For me at that age it was a massive confidence booster in all aspects of my life.
Speaker 1:I was fortunate, obviously, being mixed race. We know a lot being mixed race. We know a lot of mixed race.
Speaker 1:People go through a period of finding themselves like am I? Am I black, am I white? Like, where am I at? And for me, I would say that basketball really gave me the confidence with that. I grew up in a white area, played basketball in a predominantly black area and you know, to the kids at school I was, I was considered the black kid, and to the kids at basketball I was considered the posh white kid. So it was, it was where am I? But I would say the confidence that came with with basketball and getting good at basketball really was allowed me to be like, listen, I am who I am and if you think I'm this and you think I'm that, then I've got to be doing mixed race properly. So because I in between both. So just in terms of just relaying that back to life and I always do this I always draw upon lessons I've learned in sport and in the military to give me lessons in life, which I think helps me as a coach as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it does. I mean, what's interesting for me in that story is you talk about, well, the role sport had played. And sport played a role of being able to move you between areas, different societies, different cultures and expectations. But when you're playing, when you're on the field, it kind of you earn that respect. You earn the respect by what you do and your heritage, your skin colour, well, it's irrelevant. If you're going to hit the three points, probably don't care where you're coming from. As long as you're on my team and you're scoring, then things like that. It just seems sport helps to break down those barriers and you know for you that helped you move between those two environments. It sounds like really well. So what interests me then is where did the Marines start to play in your career? How did that initial mix start to come about for you?
Speaker 1:So actually my older brother applied for the Royal Marines and that was what first drew my attention to it and he actually couldn't game because he had asthma, and for me it was that drew attention to it and then I started to look into things. But again, my parents were both. They met through basketball, but police basketball. My parents were both police officers and I've heard all the stories that they'd had from you know policing back in the day and how everything was, and I enjoyed those stories. I enjoyed the pride that they had talking about doing something that a lot of the shared morals and values that we have in this country, being able to embody that within a uniform and do what they were proud of achieving. So for me it was.
Speaker 1:I wanted to do something similar, but I didn't want to join the police because I'd heard the police force had changed and everything that's come along with modern society, and for me it was well, where can I sort of, where might I still be able to, to get this sort of camaraderie, this, this club, this brotherhood, as we called it in the marines? And that's where that that came about from. And I was thinking this this is something that I are believing, b, I can be so proud of, and C, the, it's the best. So for me, it was like I'm not going to do something by half measures. It's if I can join a force, then I want to join the best force in the world, and when you know you go through longest basic training that any military in the world has to offer, and it's also considered one the hardest that the world has to offer, if not the hardest.
Speaker 1:For me it was like okay, this is a challenge, let's go get this green berberry, and that was where that idea came from. However, what I would say is, although I knew all this, I still didn't think that I would actually end up doing it, because I was still playing basketball in the initial periods. So and it wasn't something I really spoke about it was almost like an interest that I kept within myself, which I'll get to to sort of the actual joining in a bit, but it wasn't something that I massively spoke about. It was actually my younger brother that everybody thought was going to be the military man and I was going to be the sportsman. So it's quite funny that after all this, he ended up a rugby player and I ended up in the marines.
Speaker 2:What changed for you then? What was it then in your basketball? You know, know, as you're pursuing that career, where did it change? Where did you have to do this reprioritization of how you spent your energy?
Speaker 1:So I was at a club. So I went out to the States, did a prep school year in the States and at that point, you know, everything was going well and I was so sure that I was going to go to a division one school. Now the interest that I had was mainly off like high division two schools and then only a couple of division one schools which I didn't really have interest in. So for me then it was okay, where do I go from here? And then I ended up having a phone call off the, the GM, Lester Ryders, which play in the British Basketball League. He's saying you know, look, you can come home, you can have a scholarship here and you can be a pro playing the BBL and do your degree. So it's kind of like win-win, especially 18-19. So I went on this journey, went back to Leicester, riders and Loughborough. There was a university, so it's obviously a great school as well, known for its sporting prowess. And then I'm playing there and I ran into, I would say, a lot of confidence issues when I was playing in terms of my shooting, and for me that was such a big thing because that was my main strength when I was younger and I was almost learning how to play again because I was just not shooting the ball well and for me everything changed then. So my shot my own head about, about playing, which is, I mean, even for some people like they will never have heard me speak about it like this. So this is kind of a first me to share it like this. And then, as we're progressing, I went out on loan and then I came back to Riders and it was a case of okay, you're not really in the plans for the future, I guess you've not progressed how we saw it. So then it was a case of you can still be go through university, but for me it was about playing basketball. It wasn't about being at university. That was just a byproduct of playing basketball. It wasn't something that was like I really want to go to uni. It was an opportunity that I was fortunate to have through the sport that I love.
Speaker 1:So at that position it was, it was difficult because what? What do I do now? Do I start university again, start the year again and struggle with that and know that I'm just going to be frustrated that I'm not involved with the first team and all this stuff? But what do I do? So I then left there and I just didn't have a job. So, like, all of a sudden I've come from like I'm gonna be this basketball player. I'm at university, everything's going great to. I'm back at home with my mum and dad's, which I left to America at 18. So I met my mum and dad's at 21, 22. What am I gonna do? What? Like I'm back to square one. So for me to to draw upon that, it was okay. Now it's time to put your money where your mouth is. I'm going to join the Royal Marines.
Speaker 1:So I came home I hadn't said anything to anyone, went to the Armed Forces careers office, came back right, I'm joining the Marines in front of my mom and dad, slapped this booklet down in front of them this is me, I'm joining. And everyone was like what, what do you mean? So then I actually went through the officer application process to join the Royal Marines. Now the way that works is they're only taking 60 officers a year, so even if you, you can pass everything and still not get selected. So I went through this application process, passed everything, and then you get a letter to say, okay, you're borderline, or you've made it or you've not made it, based on your predicted scores. So I was borderline, so I still couldn't plan my life, and then you're due to hear about it in August. Anyway, long story short, I was borderline making it, missed it by about one or two places and then I was fortunate to get offered a contract at Worcester Wolves in the British Basketball League. So I went back to playing basketball.
Speaker 1:But within this period where I didn't have a job, I just got a job in a Nike store, which, for me and this is a big thing in terms of what we're speaking about transitioning for me that first it was kind of a period where, to put it bluntly, I had to get over myself because I had a job in a Nike store, and for me, because it was something that I never envisioned myself doing and not to say that I thought it was beneath me. I definitely never thought it was beneath me, but I never. I was always, for me, known as the basketball player, as someone that's going to be a professional athlete, an elite athlete. So to actually be working in a store there and in an area where I knew a lot of people, that was very tough for me to swallow, because it was I'm not meant to be here and people come into the shop and they're surprised and it was difficult to deal with until I sort of looked at myself and was like get over yourself, get over yourself and what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:what do you mean by get over yourself?
Speaker 1:well, this is a journey, and every time something doesn't go right now, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everything is part of the story, and the lessons that I learned within that actually stay with me today and form the foundation for for hard work and discipline and being the person that we want to be. So if ever you run into tough times, there's going to be things that you have to do that you don't necessarily want to do, but that's what. What is the making of you as a person. So for me to be in there and actually sit there and really think that I'm embarrassed and think about what other people might think because I'm working in a store and not on a basketball court like who cares?
Speaker 1:We're all. We're all fighting in our way through this life. We're all on our own journey and it's all part of your story. So if you're someone that is able to face your facts and face your truth and own your truth, then nobody else can take that away from you. People can say what they want, but it really does not mean anything, because the only people that really matter to you are those that that support you and understand that everybody has tough periods, and for those people that don't understand that and aren't supportive of you. They're probably not a great person to have in your life anyway you know, I hear us.
Speaker 2:You know we talk about that a lot, certainly as athletes, and we think about that from a social media perspective. I'm interested in your view, really, because as players, we love to hear the crowd and in basketball, I'd assume it's even, in some respects, even louder, because they're even closer to you when you're playing and they're literally sitting on on the line, right you know, which to me always seems a little bit too close, but they're that close. So moving from a place whereby anyone who's in the room who cheers for you supports you, that's great to then being selective about which voices you hear, that's really hard. That's a really hard shift to be able to do. You know you speak about that Nike example. How did that? How did you get through it?
Speaker 1:so for me, I love playing away, because playing away for me, when you've got people that don't want you to do well and you're like I'm going to show you, I'm going to prove this, can be done from, and I guess that's a point of proving your worth, proving your value and being confident that you've prepared so much to put yourself into these situations. So even when you're, you know, like you say, there, where everybody is supportive of you, it's a case of of moving forward and trusting your process. So we hear trust the process all the time, and when we refer to it as the process, it's normally a process that's given to you or something that you're buying into, but it's from an external source, it's an extrinsic thing that's come into it, whereas, actually, are you able to trust your process? Have you strategize against the, the barriers and obstacles that might come up in your life enough to trust this journey and this path that you're on to take you to the destination that you want to get to? Are you able to do that and if not, how can you then become able to do that? Is it a 10 to 15 minute sit down and actually really think and set out your life and set out your strategy of where you want to get to.
Speaker 1:And, like we, actually, I had a great group call on uh, on our coaching, uh with our, with our clients the other day and it was an olympic and he was saying, elliot Giles, and he was saying, if you've prepared enough and put in all your preparation, when you get to the start line, there's actually nothing else that you can do.
Speaker 1:And on that day someone might be better, someone might be worse, but you've done everything that you can physically do. And it works the same in life if you've actually planned out what you want to do and I think having a firm plan is and when I say a firm plan, it can be a bit rough around the edges because, like I say, we go back to improvise, adapt and overcome. You have to overcome these things but if you have a general idea that you can work towards and then you can trust your process in getting there. That can't be. I want to be an astronaut and fly to the moon, but you've not set out these steps to get there. It can't be that. It has to be smart realistic, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing you know, we're on that, that smart goals. Because here we're talking about your plan, your plan to be a professional basketball player that shifts right. You moved overseas, you came back, you went on, the path didn't happen. You then go start working in retail as this sort of stop gap and again not part of your plan. What was your motivation to do that job in particular?
Speaker 1:so for me it was I love Nike and it was like I was struggling, though, as well, so I was also struggling to get a job because I had no experience. Now I was out and about and I'm someone that talks to people when I'm when I'm out and around, and I'm someone that talks to people when I'm out and around and I'd spoken to a guy that was running a marketing company for the big electronic marketing boards and stuff like that. He's done really, really well, great guy. And he said come to my office and we can have a chat and see, maybe, about your career. And it was like he had no reason to do that. I literally just ran into him at my friend's birthday, like there was no reason to do that.
Speaker 1:And I did it, and I sat there and I was talking to him and planned it out and I was like I don't really know what I wanted, like I have no idea what I want to do.
Speaker 1:So it was like I just need to do something and I just love Nike, I love the clothes, I love the brand, so it was okay if I can get a job in a Nike store. And then this was an absolutely a big lesson, come to think of it, because for me, the idea that I had with applying for the Nike job was great, I can sell myself based on my sporting experiences and we talk about wealth and I speak about experiential wealth more often than not, and it's a massive thing for athletes to be able to sell themselves based on their experiences and in my head I was like Nike great, I can sell myself and what I can bring to to a shop based on my sporting experiences, and that was the whole idea behind it for me. And that's where it came to. And, to be honest, when I signed my next contract and I played at Worcester Wolves, I actually took my hours right down on that job, but I kept the job because I was like, if I get released again, I'm going to be in trouble and I didn't want to go through that again.
Speaker 1:So there was one game I played Glasgow away. We got back at three in the morning and I was back in the Nike shop at like 9am, but that was a choice for me. So it was. It was, um, a safety net for me, but they had an understanding yeah, and that's interesting.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because when you're in certainly sports, where you're on one year contracts and financially you know that when that contract ends, you don't really have, can't chill out for six months. So there, you've just described that situation where you you know that when that contract ends, you don't really have, can't chill out for six months. So there, you've just described that situation where you're looking for that safety net and I love the fact you spoke about just reducing the hours but keeping the job there and making sure that you just had that safety net for you so you could concentrate. So you could concentrate on doing your best as a basketball player. And it's that interesting thing where it's a case of yeah, yeah, are you more confident when you have a plan for what might come next, which means you perform better, less stress, you know that you can give it your all.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think that there's two ways to look at this, because there's the way that people think are you 100% focused on you playing sport, which all of the talent that you're playing against probably is, or is it like you said there? Is it a basis for you to be comfortable? And we all know a happy athlete is a better performing athlete. So is that the case where you know you actually, you are comfortable, you don't have that worry, you don't have that fear, and is that a better option for you?
Speaker 1:So for me, it was. It was definitely that, and you know, I was out on there and and what I would also say is, nike were great and they were really good the staff. So, actually, after working there for a bit, I quickly learned that they employ so many athletes so especially like track and field and you're talking national level athletes that you know might be unsponsored or their contract's not huge, and they employ a lot of them and try to fit their shifts in and around their elite athlete training sessions and schedule, which is really smart, because I really think that you get the best out of people then, and it worked both ways. So I would say that they were great for that situation and you know, if you have a random training session that pops up or something it was, I was always able to to work things around and my coach at the time when I spoke to him about it, he would this is going to be our schedule and you know how it gets in sport. You might have come back not played a great game, we're in training the next day, but it was always. He kind of helped me out with that as well but I mean, that's good, that is really good.
Speaker 2:So talk to me. That transition, how was it? What did you bring from your basketball that supports you in the military? Because I'm sure many people there are thinking all right, your average basketball player's six, six. What's going on here? What are they going to be like? How big's your backpack as you're trudging that through the mud? What pace are you moving it like that? So how did you, you know, initially physically handle that shift and then, mentally, what was that change like for you?
Speaker 1:so for me there was so much that you can bring in it and it's a recurring theme within the war marines, where there are athletes and elite athletes that have joined, like one of my very, very close friends in the marines. He was a goalkeeper for man City that had been in the first team squad in Champions League nights like Celtic and Barcelona and ended up joining the Royal Marines. He has his own story, but it would have been easy and I use him as the example rather than myself just because it's easy to football. Everybody knows that footballers have this reputation of being prima donnas, that sort of thing. You might know him with your background. No, we don't.
Speaker 2:Not at all. We don't have that in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the reason I use him as an example was because everybody was expecting a guy to be such a prima donna, such a diva, which obviously just does not work due to the nature of the job. And he passed out as one of the top in our troop and, in a natural fact, both of us I think he was third top and I was fortunate that I passed out as best recruit. But we'd both come from sports and we'd taken so many of these lessons with us. We'd already been used to being around the lads all the time being in that changing room environment. You can't really bring yourself in a bad mood to let you yourself underperform. We'd already been used to being around the lads all the time being in that changing room environment. You can't really bring yourself in a bad mood to let you yourself underperform. We'd already been used to leadership. We'd already been used to high pressure situations and all this stuff is engineered within raw marines training to make sure that only the best people get through. So the only difference is you're not competing against each other, you're competing against the standard. That's the only difference between sport to the Royal Marines, because if everybody meets the standard in the Royal Marines, everybody will pass, inevitably that will never happen because the standards are so high.
Speaker 1:But all of these lessons you can take with you, all of these, you know, is it a knock or are you actually injured? Are you able to get through that? Are you able to push through? I want to succeed with my teammates. I don't want to succeed at detriment to my teammates. All of these things were little lessons that ran parallel to our journey through through the Royal Marines and it was great to have that experience behind us and, and especially for myself, I was 23 when I joined. Some of the lads there 16, some were older than me, so just having that experience and a little bit of life experience definitely helped me through that and again, it allowed me to be put in a leadership role and thrive off that leadership, because I'd seen great leaders in sport and I'd seen bad leaders in sport. Now you can get great bosses in an office and you can get good leaders in an office, but I'm not sure that the environments translate as well as being in a sporting environment where everything is results-driven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting lessons that you brought with you. And it is, I think, one of the bits that it's surprising but obvious when you say it, it's predictable in the way you say. It is that changing room environment, that mentality of being around a group of well I'll say individuals focused on that, on that goal, on that standard, and that being a supporting factor. That wasn't odd for you, um, which, as I reflect and as I think about others in, I think, in a work environment or cultural work context, it's not always normal to have that sort of loudness, that jeeing with another up that, you know, in order to make sure the team is well oiled and moving together, it's well much normal to have that sort of loudness, that geeing one another up that, in order to make sure the team is well-oiled and moving together, it's well much more reserved, much more laid back, indeed. Nowadays you see a lot of it. It's a lot more hybrid, so you're nowhere near a changing environment working together. So, yeah, I guess that does become quite a change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and so I heard something the other day that was about there being two types of athletes and you have a piano player and a piano pusher, and essentially what it what it means is your piano player is very intricate. They, they analyze everything and it's all about this analysis and the strategy of it. And then you have the piano pusher. That's you're so. You know, you work so hard, you're going to outwork everyone and you don't even pay attention to analysis, because it's about what I do and it's all of this.
Speaker 1:And the best athletes are in the middle and you can dig deep when required, but you also see the need to think about things and fortunately, within the raw marines, the term we coined as is a thinking man, soldier, a thinking soldier, and I think that really, that embodies that piano pusher, piano player, as well, because you have to be able to dig deep, but you also have to understand the need for analysis and to actually think everything through. And I think that's the same within sport to be a great athlete, you have to have the same within sport To be a great athlete, you have to have the same things there. So I think that was a seamless transition with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the piano player and piano pusher. I wasn't sure where you were going to start with, but I caught up and I quite like it. So another one, this beautiful thing about these conversations I have I get all of these phrases and at some point I'm going to have to. You know, have people come back to me and say, yeah, I know where you got that one from. I know where you got. Yeah, that wasn't yours, right? I said that's cool, I'll let everyone know so. So I do like that now. Well, you know I'm interested.
Speaker 2:Then, you know, moving through, and it's that that point of change. So, marines, like you say, you passed out as best recruit, I think, which is you know, which is awesome, and kudos to you for for certainly achieving that. Because you know we talk about becoming a professional athlete. Passing out as best recruit must be up there in terms of percentages that actually achieve it. Of all of those who go through to be that number one is is again quite special. So you've got that double hit in in many respects. I'm interested, then, because today you talk about the three of them together the basketball, your coaching business and military sport for you in the military. How did that work?
Speaker 1:it was a crazy situation, that's the best way to put it. I was so sure that I was done with basketball. I was absolutely convinced I was done with basketball. I was absolutely convinced I was done with basketball. And I get about two months into training and I have a text off, a random number asking how I'm getting on with training. And I was like, first of all, who is this? And it was a major that was in the Royal Marines, which a major, to be talking to a recruit is. That's unheard of. Any train rank are on this pedestal. So a major, that's an officer that's quite high up to get a text off him was kind of like I'm doing all right, like who are you? And he says, oh, just make sure you keep your head down and you get passed out because we need you on the Royal Marines basketball team. So I'd heard of military sport but I didn't really know about it. So I was just like, took it with a pinch of salt. I was like, yeah, cool, so anyway, I pass out training and I, when you're something that's called a diamond, you get to pick your first unit. So for me, I wanted to go to 40 commander, went straight to 40 commander and I was fortunate to get bravo company, and the reason they put me in bravo company was to get our experience straight away because we were going straight on ship. So I was literally not even a week at unit. And then on ship, before I even went to my unit, on the way down to Taunton, where the base is, I get a call saying the Marines have got a game on Saturday, can you play? So I've just passed out of training, I've not even been to my unit yet and I played a game for the Royal Marines before I'd even been to my unit. So I was like, okay, this is quite wild, so played in this game, played well. Then I've gone to.
Speaker 1:I went on ship, I went to Albania, oman and Qatar. Absolutely no basketball, just soldiering, great experiences, getting to see the world, and this is kind of what I joined to do. So there was, you know, it was floodlit, it was on the base. I was like, oh, I'm just going to play some basketball and the one thing about Marines is they'll try anything. So we went down there it was me and then four lads that play football and they were like come on, let's play, let's ask these lads for a game. And I was like, have any of you ever played basketball? No, so we're flying you back to Belgium to play for the UK Armed Forces basketball team, which consists of the RAF, the Navy and the Army, in a tournament against the NATO countries. So I was like, ok, when is this happening? Ok, your flight's out tomorrow. So I'm like I have no idea what this was a thing, but I'll take it.
Speaker 1:So I've flown back from Qatar to, I've gone, I've come home for not even 24 hours to get my basketball stuff and then I've gone to Belgium. You know, I've turned up and I've meet the meet the team, and it was a situation where I guess in the military it's very much about earning your stripes, quite literally earning your stripes. So like you know, this and there is the experience thing does weigh heavy. So you know he's only just passed out, what's he doing here, and like that kind of idea behind it. And it turned up for the training camp in this tournament. And then I was out in Belgium and everything was paid for my food, was paid for, you know, your accommodation. Of course you're staying on the NATO base.
Speaker 1:But then what really surprised me was the level and the standard of basketball that we were playing at. So you're talking about French professionals that are playing in the second or third leagues in France, which is a very, very good standard. You're talking about Latvians that have been conscripted to their military, lithuanians in the same position USA that were all Division I level athletes that had been to the Air Force school or something like that. So this level was like super, super high, which was really especially after three months on ship just soldiering. I wasn't expecting it, but it was a great opportunity. And then we came back from there and then three months later it's like okay, we're playing the US Marine Corps in April. So I was like what do you mean? So now I'm off to America and I'm in the States and played against the US Coast Guard and the US Marine Corps A military sport, as I've been learning throughout the way.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm eight years in now, so I understand it. But it's huge, like it's absolutely massive, and there's so many opportunities and what I would say is for people that are transitioning out of sport at a younger age is a great thing to look at, because the other option it's it's brought me to where I am now, where I'm fortunate to have a basketball contract and then I have an agreement with the navy that allows me to fulfill daytime training sessions. It allows me to be given so much time off. It happens quite a bit in rugby. I mean, there's a there's a premiership rugby player who plays for Fiji in the world cups. That's actually in the Royal Navy, sam Matavesi, and he's a full-time athlete, but he was also in the navy before.
Speaker 1:So you do get these opportunities to play sport and, depending on how good you are and how much you're able to fulfill the level, you can get offered a contract and work it alongside your military career. So we go back to the safety net, where you've got the safety net of your career and your salary and everything else, but you've also got a sporting contract and you're doing what you love. I think. Well, I would say if you spoke to the majority of athletes, if they knew they had that behind them, a lot of people would do it or would have the option of having something behind them as well for afterwards, because otherwise it can be a very difficult transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think both. It can be a difficult transition, but it can also put more stress on you, trying to perform at your optimal all the time and not switching off, not having anything to, I guess, divert your attention, to simply rest, right, you know, think about something else. So it is amazing, though, because I'm learning from you sport in the military. I'm learning what that's like. That is to me it sounds brilliant. In some respects, it sounds like you're very much a professional, semi-professional. In some respects. Then, in travelling around, going to these different tournaments and playing, it feels like it is indeed an international honour that you've earned.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. And like boxing is huge in the military, absolutely massive. So I know people that are. They're on what they call a sports draft, so for six months they don't do anything but box. That is their job within the navy, within the military. Your job is a boxer, you are a boxer, and the term that we get called all the time is a tracksuit soldier. That's what they call us tracksuit soldiers.
Speaker 1:It happens with, like I mentioned, rugby. So we're in the build-up to army net army versus Navy in the rugby. The training camp will run from around about January, february, all the way up to the game, which will be late April, early May. So that's all they do then play rugby. They are professional rugby players for that period. So it actually is that. So there is that opportunity to continue playing within the armed forces and it's a much bigger scale. It's actually hard to fathom, because one of the biggest things that I have now is OK, so what do you do for a job? And in my head I'm thinking if I actually say what I do right now, it sounds like a lie, it sounds like I'm just I'm living in cloud cookie land.
Speaker 2:Test me, go for it, tell us, tell us now, what is your job so?
Speaker 1:I'm a Royal Marine, I'm a professional basketball player and I'm a coach an online coach so when I have to relay that, it's straight away. I know it kind of sounds a unique situation, but I have an agreement between the Royal Marines and my basketball club, the Royal Marines and Royal Marines, and my basketball club, the Royal Marines and Royal Navy, and my basketball club, which allows me to fulfill that. The Navy have been great. They've sponsored City of Birmingham Rockets, who have gone back to playing for my childhood club, which is another great story in itself. The Navy has sponsored them and we've had, we've tried to increase awareness with the demographic that plays basketball. So that's been been great for both sides.
Speaker 1:And then my online coaching business, the Fizz Factory we're called, and we essentially do high performance coaching, but from a holistic standpoint. So we're not just here to roll you out a fitness program. That's right. Go get this done. What we want to do is make sure that we overcome all the obstacles and barriers that might be in your way to achieving your goals.
Speaker 1:So I've been fortunate, within the military and within basketball, to have the luxury of nutrition taken care of.
Speaker 1:You get this education through kind of naturally through through these things or rehab.
Speaker 1:But I've also seen, on the other side of have had friends that you know have really struggled to rehab injuries, really struggled to stand up in the nutrition. So what we did then was just put a package together where you can have your your training program done for you, you have your nutrition done for you and you also have access to a full rehab team where you'll go through consultations. You'll get a full rehab plan and we will always work together as a team of coaches to make sure that we keep the needle moving forward, even if you are injured or you're struggling with your education on food. And then we run guest calls, group calls, webinars on mindset, get guest speakers in. Like I said, we had an olympic athlete on yesterday. The call before that was navigating 2024. So how we're going to plan this out and roadmap it out, how that's going to match your 10-year core values, what matters to you now, that's going to matter to you in 10 years and how we actually work towards that. So we set that strategic plan up to get there.
Speaker 2:What was the inspiration behind setting that up?
Speaker 1:To be honest, we set it up because a lot of people I love fitness, I love training, I love fitness so that will be my competitive edge after my basketball career. That's something that I've got an eye on. Not that I want my basketball career to end anytime soon, it's just I know that that's what it is and I've had the opportunity to compete in a couple of fitness competitions and people were just asking me for a lot of workouts and I run it with my brother and a friend as well. They were asking us for workouts all the time. So we just set it up on an Instagram and we're lucky to gain a bit of a following.
Speaker 1:And then from there people would say have you got merch? And it was like I don't know, do we? And it was like, okay, yeah, now we've got merch, you can over here, you can buy, get some merch. And then from there it was actually really the recurring theme here is like I love to help people, I love the coaching mentor inside of things. So what can we put together?
Speaker 1:So initially we just rolled out programming, but then I quickly realized that even the people that love fitness and love mindset and everything else, they still might run into problems that they never thought they'd face or they'd had never faced before. So how can we actually, you know, if they get knocked off this path, how can we put them on the path that, when they get to the finish line, they look at all the hurdles that they had and they're proud of what they've got over and got to achieve what they've wanted to achieve? So that was where it came from. So it's just been this natural progression of initially people asking us for fitness and then people asking us for different advice, and then put it all into a package.
Speaker 2:It's a great way for a business to begin. You sort of wait to hear what people are asking you for and then you provide it. It's quite simple. So you listen and then, once you've listened, you listen to understand. You understand what they're asking for and then you try and figure out how do I, how can I provide that, how can I make that happen? And naturally it leads you to a place where you found yourselves. Now your brother, your friend and you're doing a business. That is natural. It's almost what people expect of you that's it.
Speaker 1:And now it's a case of, you know, just just taking it up and scaling it up, and we're always looking to provide value and, you know, the more people that we have on board, the more value we're looking to provide, just because we're able to provide more value.
Speaker 2:And when that is the case, so it's a case of now, we'll try and stay ahead of the curve as well yeah, I'm also interested in the role that you have, this hybrid role that you have with the military, with marines and navy. How did that come about? Because here we're at this point where we'll have individuals who certainly interested in going into the military, probably military personnel thinking about coming out, who still have this love of sport. You've managed to stitch these two things together. Was this a plan that you had, you know you're able to lay out ahead of you? Was it something where you were simply lucky, right place, right time? I mean, just talk me through. What is it that happened to get you where you are now, into that role? Okay, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So, as I said before, I went to 40 comm, I went through my soldiering. I'm a combat assault breacher and I'm also fire support as well. So I've gone through these specializations in the military and I've gone to take on a really arduous course, a really, really tough course, to further my military career, and if I would have passed that, that definitely would have been the door closed on basketball, but unfortunately I failed it and which was also very, very, very tough to deal with because you're not used to it. So when I failed this course anyway I've come off I've got drafted back to the training center for marines and the draft that I was put into was actually, you know, to simulate being the enemy for recruits when they're going into the field, and I was quite frustrated because I would you know, I believe that I've done quite well as a Royal Marine and I felt like I could.
Speaker 1:It wasn't a role that I felt like I could fulfil my true potential in, but before that, anyway, I'd started asking questions, like I have a lot of white friends from underprivileged backgrounds that have lived great lives now through being in the marines and through being in the military, and I don't have many ethnic friends in the same position. Now my best friend in the marines he's, you know, we look like brothers. To like literally look like brothers couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it myself. When I first saw him I was like, wow, we do kind of look similar, and I was. We ended up buying a house together that we now rent out and the story you know he grew up, got stabbed at 16 from this background and he's done well as well another mixed race lad. So it was like why is that there's not many people that look like us within this that have changed their lives or able to be successful through life? So I started asking questions and one thing about me is that I don't really pull any punches in asking questions. So it could be to people that are quite high ranking and ask those questions and some people would say you don't need to do this, putting your head above the parapet and taking this on.
Speaker 1:But for me it was. It is a true passion when there's so much talent that we're missing out on from these demographics. I thought, you know, if we can raise the awareness, then we can do it. So I started asking questions about how we could do this and then I ended up getting put in this role, which was initially called the women's and ethnic minority support team but now it's called the positive action team, and essentially what our role is they're dedicated to do is to we're solely dedicated to increasing representation within the Royal Marines and Royal Navy. So we're not there to give people a leg up in terms of a head start. We're there to help people get to the start line because, as I said, the standards are the standards and they can never change. But if people aren't aware of what they can achieve, of what they can be, of what the career paths are now there's over 145 different careers within the Royal Navy for people to fulfill. So if people aren't aware of the different things that they can do, the different qualifications, they can get the different things that they might be able to achieve with this little bit of support, because they might have their accommodation, they might, you know, be put in a position that they weren't otherwise afforded.
Speaker 1:Now we're extending the talent in the marines. We're actually a better force within the whole of the navy. We're a better service and companies that have, you know that, are multicultural companies that have more representation. There is a lot of studies that have been done by McKinsey Co and a bunch of others that say they're the highest performing organizations. Now for us to be to hold the standard that we speak of, it has to be the same for the service.
Speaker 1:So now we're in this hybrid role and when I went, got this offer, this basketball contract, it has been a choice to maintain an output within the Marines.
Speaker 1:I could have just shut the door, and when I say shut the door on it, they would have allowed me to just be doing basketball full time.
Speaker 1:But I said I'm happy to maintain an output because I think that putting myself out there and putting myself and telling my story to people that look like me, that might be from where I'm from, gives more of an insight as to what into what we actually do.
Speaker 1:And as an example, next month we've got an event where I'm going to speak to all of the elite academy basketball academies at their central, centrally located day with Basketball England. There's 284 high level athletes there. Now we know from our sporting backgrounds that it's inevitable that not all of those are going to make it in sport, but if we can make them aware of the other opportunities that they have, then it stops this saying that a sportsman dies twice because they didn't know what they were going to do. So they might already be able to transition and if some of them are at that young age, they can have a sporting career and have that military background behind them. So that was where this hybrid role, so I've been fortunate that the Navy have supported me within it and I'm able to deliver that and hopefully help some individuals.
Speaker 2:I think that's great. I'll say bravo for taking on the role and staying in the role whilst the basketball opportunity came back for you as well, because I think it's an important message. It is, you know, extremely critical, simple to say you know you can't be what you can't see and having that obstructed view, sort of limited people. By now opening it up and letting people see and hear, those of ethnic minorities, those who don't hear about those opportunities, I think it's great and the phrase they're helping them get to the start line is key. So I think that is that's absolutely brilliant, that you're doing that. I suppose I have to ask then, just from a balance you know, how do you manage your time? How do you manage to do those, all of those things in within a 24 hour period?
Speaker 1:it's difficult. I won't sit here and say that it's not difficult and there is a hell of a lot of workload. I have a very supportive partner, a very supportive fiance. She's got her own business so understands the demands that comes with it, but even doesn't stop her sometimes getting frustrated as well, because it is a lot. But I would say one of the biggest things that I've recently learned is how you can map things out in your calendar and actually using your diary and and actually blocking out time periods. So you know, from seven till nine I'm doing this. From nine to eleven I'm working out. From 11 till 1, I'm doing some Marines recruitment work. From 1 to 1.30, I'm having my lunch, even literally. Even putting that in can help you to and trying to stick to that. From this time I'm in the weight room, this time I'm here. So there's all of this that comes into it.
Speaker 2:So actually, scheduling things in. So there's all of this that comes into it. So actually scheduling things in is this you by hand in your calendar, moving around or using tools ai to support you no, I figure it out with my to-do list.
Speaker 1:What's the most important things, what's whenever those ideas pop into your head? I'd say to write them down, because it's inevitable that when you come to think what did I, what was I thinking about, you never remember it. Write them down and then you can go through prioritizing it even basically.
Speaker 2:What do you take those notes in? What is your to-do list?
Speaker 1:my phone and my calendar on my phone and then, if you know, I've got calls booked in. If I have calls booked in luckily I booked them through calendly it goes straight into my calendar and that's always winning from there. And I also know that anything that I put in on my calendar then links to my call booking link for my online coaching. So those times get blocked out and then I always on a weekend I will always have stuff. So obviously, generally we're playing a Saturday, but sometimes it can be a Sunday, or obviously with basketball we can play back to back. So I think in two weeks time we've got two back-to-back weekends in a row. So that's going to be pretty tough because that's a lot going through there. But, yeah, writing those down in my phone and having that and trying to stick to it as best as possible.
Speaker 1:And I would say, the biggest thing about for that is prioritizing, definitely prioritizing what needs to be done. And I don't know if you've heard of it, but the eisenhower's quadrant, which essentially where? Yeah, obviously, if you know about that, you're you're urgent, non-urgent, important, non-important, and that is a great tool for prioritizing like nothing. I've only learned about this in the last few months, but for me, I draw that box out by hand on my diary and think few months, but for me I draw that box out by hand on my diary and think this is what I need to do, and just talking about this. The thing about this is you always seem to think that you'd have to work in the urgent and important element, but actually if you work inside the non-urgent important, that that's also the main thing for moving yourself forward so, look, it probably just gets me towards the, the last question.
Speaker 2:In many respects around, you know, for those who are listening, who are athletes, elite athletes, approaching the point, or they've finally just dawned on them. Hey, this might have to change. I'm gonna have to transition into a new role or do something at some point, based Based on your experience. What advice would you give to them?
Speaker 1:It's. I think it's okay to find it a really tough period. I would definitely say that Don't be too tough on yourself. I would say that really try to find what your interests are, what your loves are, what you find enjoyment in, because it's going to be so difficult and for those that play at, say, a super high level, that are going into work, the really difficult thing and one of my friends has just seen this is it's going to be the excitement to get this normal job, as athletes would call it, and then after two to three weeks, everything comes crashing down because it's not what you imagined. So it's not always this great thing that you spoke, you've thought of, because it's not been your reality, it's not been your, your normal.
Speaker 1:So try and find something that you really enjoy. Try and find your interests and then work it back from that. What is there that involves my interests? What is there that I can do that I will enjoy doing? Because to be good in a work environment, to be good as a business owner, to be good, you have to enjoy what you're delivering and you have to believe in what you're delivering. If you don't believe in what you're doing, it's so tough to pretend and play that game. It's so tough and you'll never actually fulfill your potential yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2:I like that. It's very hard to pretend for every minute and every hour of the day, and if you find yourself going into a role, into a career where you're pretending to enjoy it, pretending to be busy or effective, you're going to get found out either by someone else or certainly by yourself at some point. And, jordan, I just want to say thanks very much for joining me on the show today. I've loved the stories, love your insights. I've taken the phrases as well. I suppose I just want to say, if someone wants to follow your journey, what's the best way to get in touch with you and follow?
Speaker 1:so the best thing to do is follow my Instagram, which is at jord doors j-o-r-d-d-a-w-e-s or at fees factory p-h-y-z, f-a-c-t-o-r-y, and just just come and come see what we're doing, see what we're offering and and hopefully you know, the dm's always open. With the dm's always open, there's even a cool booking link and if anybody is interested in what we do or wants to follow that, it's always there and I'm always happy to to share some advice and some value and chop it up, because we're all learning, everybody's learning, everybody's figuring out their story and and that's the the key takeaway for me everything that you do is part of your story wonderful jordan, just.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.