When the roar of the stadium fades into the quiet buzz of an office, life takes an unexpected scrum. Former rugby professional Jason joins Ryan to share his remarkable journey from scoring tries to advising on financial ties. An athlete's path is never linear, and Jason's tale is a testament to the tenacity required both on the field and in the world of finance. We traverse his transition from the Southern Kings to capturing Google Maps footage, then to his adept hand at wealth management — proving it's not just muscle that flexes in the face of change but the mind too.
Our dialogue extends beyond the pitch, focusing on the critical need for financial literacy and tailored advice for those whose careers peak early in life. Tune in for an episode that tackles more than just rugby tales — it's about navigating life's financial scrums and scoring goals for the future.
Tune in to learn more about:
… and so much more!
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
Linkedln: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaggott12/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasonbaggott12
When the roar of the stadium fades into the quiet buzz of an office, life takes an unexpected scrum. Former rugby professional Jason joins Ryan to share his remarkable journey from scoring tries to advising on financial ties. An athlete's path is never linear, and Jason's tale is a testament to the tenacity required both on the field and in the world of finance. We traverse his transition from the Southern Kings to capturing Google Maps footage, then to his adept hand at wealth management — proving it's not just muscle that flexes in the face of change but the mind too.
Our dialogue extends beyond the pitch, focusing on the critical need for financial literacy and tailored advice for those whose careers peak early in life. Tune in for an episode that tackles more than just rugby tales — it's about navigating life's financial scrums and scoring goals for the future.
Tune in to learn more about:
… and so much more!
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
Linkedln: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaggott12/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasonbaggott12
contract was coming up to an end, so COVID came around March 20. My contract was coming to an end September. The Academy after going through a series of interviews, but unfortunately it was typically a face-to-face sort of program in the office at Edinburgh and so obviously that delayed things. So the Academy only ended up starting in, I think, January or February 2021. So there was a lull between September and February or January. So I kind of had to find something quick to fill the gap because I was postponed on that.
Jason Baggott:So I did a few things to fill my time. You know finding on sort of Indeed or various sort of recruitment websites. One of them was actually Google Maps. So I don't know if you've ever gone to Google and you sort of street view and you can kind of walk down the street basically. So I had to capture that footage. So basically what that was, it was a big, huge electronic pack with this beam that came up with this camera, and then you basically get given a map and you have to walk up and down the streets of Edinburgh and capture this footage.
Ryan Gonsalves:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason Baggott:Thank you very much for having me. It's good to jump on a podcast, particularly that's relevant to myself. A lot of athletes making the transition, obviously having made the transition not too long ago, a couple years ago now, so it'll be interesting to to walk down memory lane.
Ryan Gonsalves:So thanks very much for having me absolute pleasure and, like you say, you are only a few years, couple of years into your transition out of the game and for me, you know, it's quite important to make sure we capture the stories of those at various stages of that transition. And you know, I think what you're doing now, certainly in terms of financial services and supporting athletes at clubs and at an individual level, is, for me, is actually quite interesting. You know, I'd love to understand how you can perhaps even separate yourself and your own transition from how you're then working with those individuals and perhaps actually that probably is a good place to start is really what you're doing today. Where are you in your career? Where are you in your, both professionally and in the playing perspective, if you just share that, just to kick us off.
Jason Baggott:Obviously probably dive into it a little bit later, but obviously made the transition from professional rugby into financial services.
Jason Baggott:I was, fortunate enough, I went down the uni route alongside rugby, so I had two hats on at the same time, which is probably not the easiest thing to do, but then eventually finished up uni sort of which coincided with COVID, and then that sort of made me realize you know what's the next step.
Jason Baggott:My father was an accountant, was probably or originally going to go down that route, sort of the CA route and you know the typical chartered accountancy. A lot of my friends did that route and it wasn't a very positive feedback from their experience from accounting. So I actually went on or spoke to a few of the players that I played with throughout my career and a few of them went down the wealth management route and you know, spoke to them really intrigued me, really interested me in that, because I suppose everyone has to worry about money through their life. So I might as well make it my job, so to speak, and also all the intricacies in that. So I still play a bit of rugby. I play on a semi-professional basis Watsonians in the Super 6 up in Edinburgh, but that's sort of a couple of nights a week, play on the weekend alongside a full-time job in wealth management.
Ryan Gonsalves:Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting. I'm glad to hear you're still playing and it's good to really, I guess, try and keep in touch with the game as we retire. And, as I say to everyone, you've got to play for as long as you possibly can, as long as your body holds out, that's actually quite good?
Jason Baggott:No, absolutely, and I think it's from our perspective.
Jason Baggott:You know, rugby's got a shelf life, probably more so than any other sport, naturally because of the physical demands of the game.
Jason Baggott:So it'd be kind of a waste in the sense of giving it up too early when I still had a have a couple of years left. Funny enough, I think we said on the last time we spoke, probably actually enjoying it a lot more and probably at the same time probably playing my best rugby that I've played in the last couple of years, and I think it's just more having a balance than you know, having all your eggs in into the rugby basket, so to speak. You've got, you know, life outside of rugby obviously got work, family, have more of a social life now as well, probably. Obviously rugby is quite a or any sport. You're inside a bubble, whether it's pre-season, then in season, then off season. You're almost disconnected from the outside world, so to speak, in the sense of your regime, your plan, your schedule. So now it's a bit more flexible and I think having a bit more of a balance in life allows me to enjoy rugby more and play a lot better, which is quite nice as well.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, yes, it is, it is, and I'm interested a bit on. You spoke about your father being in Finns services or being an accountant as you grew up and the influence that had on you as you started to look for that career off the field. I'm interested, then as a youngster, what inspiration did you have in order to become a professional athlete?
Jason Baggott:I think I suppose any South African rugby player or not, you know rugby is a big part of South African heritage, south African being a South African, whether it's the rugby itself or the sort of the feeling around rugby, you know rugby is more of an event rather than a game.
Jason Baggott:So if there's a Springboks playing on a Saturday, you know you'd have friends over, there'd be a bride before the game and then watch the game and then probably go into the early hours of the morning. It's sort of a whole day event. Even schoolboy rugby it's not a case of rock up for your game and and leave straight after it's. The school have games throughout the whole day, starting from half past seven till the first team game at four o'clock in the afternoon. So rugby's ingrained in in any south african and and obviously if you kind of pick up the sport from early on, um, you naturally aspire to become a spring walk or professional rugby player. So that's definitely, I think you know, widely felt across the country. As a South African that's sort of why I kind of pursued that dream.
Ryan Gonsalves:So for you playing rugby I love the way you said it's not a game, it was an event, certainly as the national team played. So for you growing up, was it all about rugby or was there? You know, with your dad being an accountant, was there some sort of balance that kicked through rugby or was there?
Jason Baggott:you know, with your dad being an accountant was there some sort of balance that kicked through. I suppose maybe the accountancy side sort of only kicked on. You know into towards high school. But you know, naturally get thrown into all sports. You know big into cricket, play a lot of golf. You know there's water polo, swimming, all sorts of. You know obviously rugby, hockey. As a young child you're kind of thrown into all sports but naturally that rugby just seems to have the bigger sort of draw and attraction towards it because it's obviously such a huge sport in the country. And so that's what led me down that route.
Ryan Gonsalves:What were your aspirations at that time, then, of becoming a player?
Jason Baggott:I think probably at the age of 17,.
Jason Baggott:I got offered a contract to go to the local provincial team or professional team, and from there it was kind of well. I didn't realize this was a possibility. I originally was going to go down the university route in Cape Town or Stellenbosch, which is kind of typical for particularly my school, and then, you know, this opportunity came up which was sort of closer to the town I was in. You know they also provided sort of university education there as well, so it was a bit of a double whammy and providing university costs but also, you know, professional rugby setup. So from there it was like it was a no-brainer for me. All I wanted to do from there was was trying to get into the professional team as quickly as I could and then kind of assess from there. But that was really sort of the realization I could potentially go on to be professional and then and go from there.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, it's interesting then. So it sort of morphed, it became a path for you in rugby, but that wasn't necessarily. Even when you were certainly starting 15, 16. It wasn't necessarily the dream to be a rugby player.
Jason Baggott:I think at that time you're just enjoying rugby, whereas there's no sort of next job, next job, next job. It's kind of you've landed on a bit of luck here with injuries. You're now on the first team. First team is a privilege at school and then it's playing regularly, playing well and then getting a bit more of attention. And then they're realising actually I could actually sort of kick on you. So it wasn't actually until about 17, 18, where it was kind of actually let's give this a go. But 15, 16, it was just sort of, you know, enjoying the moment, enjoying the sort of the, I suppose, the attention. You know a youngster playing the first team.
Ryan Gonsalves:So it was pretty much from there. Yeah, what happened then? So you're at university, you're studying and you're playing. How balanced would you say you were in terms of studies and playing at that time?
Jason Baggott:They had quite a strict regime obviously, basically, if you didn't cut the mark with studies and passing, you know, because essentially they're covering a university cost and if you're not passing they're wasting their money. So you really had to kind of get it done from there and I suppose, again, looking back, fortunate enough that was the case. So you had to kind of keep a balance. You know, whether it's starting late at night or early in the morning, you obviously had to do your training as well and obviously fit around that and particularly games playing away etc was, uh, wasn't easy juggling the two, but I suppose this, uh, it had to be done at the end of the day yeah, very, very true.
Ryan Gonsalves:So where did it kick on from there? For you was, uh, it sounds like that aspiration, and you know you achieved more than being in in the provincial team. So where did you kick on to?
Jason Baggott:so I was um. So from school I went to um a team and it's actually a team that's um fallen away just now but southern kings. I went there for about a year and a half and then, sort of you know, my agent at the time said there was a, a bit of opportunity in the uk. So they sort of got me or she got me about two or three trials in the uk, sort of go to the UK for about two, three weeks, visit the three clubs and see how you get on. And so I did that.
Jason Baggott:In the end I went to visit these clubs, sort of basically trained for them for a week, a full week field sessions in the gym, chatting to the coaches, basically see if there's a possibility here, and then, basically after three weeks, came back to South Africa and then they got back in touch. And then, basically after three weeks, came back to South Africa and then they got back in touch and two out of the three actually offered an opportunity to come back on a full time basis and took, managed to or chose the option to go to Edinburgh rugby. So I moved there, moved here, and now I'm still in Edinburgh back in 2015. So in South Africa out of school and professional ranks for about a year, just over a year and then got the opportunity to come across to the UK and sort of, you know, expand that and see where we got to.
Ryan Gonsalves:That's a great opportunity, isn't it, to be able to come over and play internationally. I mean, what was a key influence in making that decision?
Jason Baggott:To be honest, I think it was. You know most South Africans aspire, particularly from financial reasons. But also you know experience Because obviously, being in the UK and Europe, you know if you're involved in a professional club, you have, you know you play against clubs from different countries. So in the URC, for example, it's a competition with Scotland, ireland, wales and Italy. So you're playing against clubs from all those different countries Ireland, wales and Italy. So you're playing against clubs from all those different countries. If you're playing in, obviously your player that's the domestic league. Then there is the Europe sort of in football, like the Champions League for example, so you get to play all those clubs plus the English clubs and the French clubs. So in terms of development perspective, you want to be playing against the best players in the world and it was such a huge opportunity. Foreign country and it was just a no-brainer, you know snapped their arm off for that opportunity, so I was chomping at their butts to head across.
Ryan Gonsalves:Brilliant. And when you look then at your time in Edinburgh from a sporting perspective, what's your most proud moment?
Jason Baggott:I think for myself, when I made my Edinburgh rugby debut against an Irish club called Munster just growing up obviously involved in rugby, munster or Irish rugby was not almost feared. You know, it was just. You know Munster rugby is just this big name, particularly in the Europe leagues, because obviously they've won the Champions League equivalent a few times. So playing against them for my debut didn't end well and we lost by 20 or 30 points. So probably not the best from performance side, but just from an experience side, you know, playing against these top Irish internationals was. It was a big moment for me.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, that's definitely one to be proud of. I know I guess many athletes me included you sort of remember that first big game, that sort of moment that started to really just move you forward in many respects, and it's a good moment to look back at at university for that first year and a half down in South Africa. You then moved to the UK, moved up to Scotland. Where did academics fit during that move?
Jason Baggott:So my parents, fortunate enough they were pretty adamant that right, if you want to, you know, go to the UK and, you know, try this whole rugby thing. University is going to have to come with you. So I managed to, you know, talk to a couple of universities in Edinburgh and basically transfer my credits across from South Africa.
Ryan Gonsalves:So, fortunately, enough when I joined the university.
Jason Baggott:here I managed to transfer the full year so I went straight into second year, Obviously being a four-year degree. Because of the demands of rugby I had to do the remainder of my degree on a part-time basis. So coming straight into second year, but moving forward every year would sort of take two years, if that makes sense, because you do half a year at a time. So the next three years of my degree took me six years. So again a bit of a slog, but very glad I ended up doing that in the end.
Ryan Gonsalves:How did you find the balance?
Jason Baggott:Very difficult, find the balance very difficult, I remember. So we the university I went to actually has a brilliant indoor facility and actually the rugby club. I was at edmund rugby and would use that indoor facility during the winter, during in certain times when the weather's very bad, and so we'd literally rock up on a, you know, a training day at the university for rugby. You'd have your morning gym and morning field session. During lunch I would head back up just up the road for a tutorial or a lecture over lunch, come back and then probably grab something, a bite to eat, go straight into a field session, a team session, in the afternoon, finish up there, run back up the road for the tutorial that evening. So it wasn't easy, by any means, you know, it was definitely. Um, I wouldn't recommend it, that's for sure you wouldn't recommend it.
Ryan Gonsalves:Oh dear, we're going to come into this a little bit more. What would you recommend?
Jason Baggott:if it needs to be done, absolutely, you know it's the best way to do it. But I think personally, if there's obviously no, no right or wrong way of doing it, but I think if it's controversial, because obviously the rugby opportunity is there, but if I had my way I would sort of finish the degree first and then sort of go into rugby after that, obviously there's an argument for perhaps missing the opportunity in rugby. I completely understand. But I think if you, you know, uni is not for everyone, don't get me wrong. But if you want to get a degree or study university, you know, if I had to look back I would try and get it out the way first, that's for sure.
Ryan Gonsalves:What difference do you think that would have made for you by doing the degree first?
Jason Baggott:I suppose it's. It's difficult because obviously you know, basically the more time you put into the other, the other sacrifices, that makes sense. So naturally, you know, I look back and I say that I would like to have done the degree first, but in hindsight probably not, because probably wouldn't have have had the rugby career I've had. But then, at the same time, there's some, there's a few other players that did university first whilst sort of playing club rugby, not professionally, and then they actually finished their degree and have gone on to become internationals or top club players, professional club players just now. So you know that is, and obviously they've got degrees behind them for when they make the transition in rugby. So, like I say, I would have liked to finish university first, but there's, you know, everyone's got their own path.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, and look we do. And this is all about opinion and perspective, and that's why we're having this conversation, really, because I'm thinking what do you think you would have got out of the degree, or what do you think you missed out on by doing the degree part-time whilst being a rugby player that you would have had or you'd have received had you the degree part-time whilst being a rugby player that you would have had or you'd have received had you been a full-time?
Jason Baggott:student. I think obviously different reasons, but I think you know university, you know I was there for for the degree, for the education, that's it. So I'd go to the tutorial leave, go to the lecture leave. I wouldn't hang around so didn't know, my classmates didn't know it didn't have any sort of university life, if that makes sense. So it's purely on a basis of right, go there, do the lecture, do what you need to do, get out, go to training. It's really kind of you kind of miss the good bits, uh, as in from the university side, so like making friends etc. But then also rugby, typical rugby behavior after a game, go out and enjoy yourself. Perhaps I had to dial back on that because I had to study for university, if that makes sense. So it's kind of spreading yourself thin and kind of get what you need to get the job done. But then I suppose you kind of miss out on a few aspects on on both accounts yeah, listen, I get it.
Ryan Gonsalves:And it is that, that balance and that sacrifice. And I think when you're next to all these individuals, like you say you go and you do the tutorial, they're talking about things that they're doing. There's a social and a networking aspect to university and certainly the college you went to you know you would say one of the benefits is building out that network and by being so laser focused on I'm just here to learn, you actually miss out on some of those other aspects. Sounds weird, yeah absolutely.
Ryan Gonsalves:I suppose, similar from a rugby perspective missing out or reducing, dialing down that team camaraderie activity because you're not there in between the training sessions in the same way as the others are, you know. Conversely, then, to what extent do you think going down that dual path in fact it's not really a dual path you were squeezing in university alongside a full-time rugby career. I suppose when you look at it now, to what extent do you think it helped you? Or to what extent did it help or hinder you as a rugby player?
Jason Baggott:I think you know, maybe perhaps anyone sort of says right, you know, if you want to do one thing, do it at 100%. And I think maybe to a certain degree, being a professional rugby player, you need 100% of your time invested in rugby, whereas maybe, if we talk about maybe still fully invested, but maybe you could only give 70% because you were studying late last night and you know you've got a double field session in the afternoon or double field session tomorrow. So yes, I'm fully engrossed and I'm fully focused on the rugby side of things. Maybe I can only give 70%. Same on the university side.
Jason Baggott:I'm in the tutorial, I'm there, I've made the effort, but I've just had a full day's training. Maybe I can only give 70% because obviously I'm knackered. You know there it is difficult from that perspective and naturally there has to be a sacrifice. You know there's only one of you at the end of the day. So you kind of try and bide your balance of maybe today I'll give 80% of rugby and 20% to uni and vice versa. Unconsciously you just can't help it, but it's one of those things you kind of have to try and manage from there yeah, understand it is.
Ryan Gonsalves:And, look, it's a challenge that many athletes face. How do you give your all towards the sport because you know that's got a shelf life, yet you still need to have that focus on, well, what's going to come next and how do you best set yourself up for that? And I guess there is an element of pragmatism that certainly has to come into it, but then also a realization at some point that it's going to end and it is time to move on. So for you, when you think about your pro rugby career, what was the moment or what was the sort of situation that started to unfold that made you realize this is going to end at some point? I'm going to have to actually start putting things in motion for that second one.
Jason Baggott:I think for me it definitely was COVID. I think that would be the case for a lot of athletes across different sports. So COVID arrived in March 2020. My contract was coming to an end August, september. So obviously myself and my agent were looking around different options. I wasn't getting kept on at Edinburgh Rugby and naturally, with the world shutting down, particularly in professional sport, it's difficult to secure a job. So a few things cropped up, but a lot of them meant that I would be traveling down south to England or to America or to Italy or to France, and I think just the way things were.
Jason Baggott:At that stage I wasn't really keen to sort of upend and move halfway across the world again. So at that time I also finished my university degree and I was thinking, you know, maybe I can still play a bit of rugby, but why don't we start sort of looking at a, at a job that I can start building for, for a career outside of rugby? So at that stage I'm sort of, you know, starting to have a think. Also, prior to that, I sort of made use of my network, you know, before covid came around. So I was trying to fish around sort of what do they do? Or this. This company sponsors us. You know, maybe I should fish around and see what they do. Do I like that? So it's really kind of uh had an you know experience in a few different offices, uh, before that, and then it just sort of covid came around, not getting kept on here, probably gonna have to move. Um, let's start exploring what I can potentially do outside of rugby right.
Ryan Gonsalves:So how did you? You know you mentioned there about spending time with offices, speaking to different sponsors. Perhaps you know who may have sponsored the club how did you go about creating that opportunity, or indeed making it happen?
Jason Baggott:so there was actually a chap by the name of Ben Ettinger I think I mentioned last time. He played at the club big rugby career in his own right. He was an All Black and so his job is sort of play a liaison type role or transition coach or he's probably got a specific name for it. So apologies, ben, but his job is to really sort of push boys in, no matter what stage of career they're in. He always tries to. He'll go in when they're having lunch and say, oh you know, listen, baggy, what are you thinking about doing? There's PT.
Jason Baggott:There's, you know, some boys trying to push boys into various things If it's uni or, you know, pt. Some boys did barbering courses, some boys did gin and whiskey courses. Some boys are now doing their pilot's license. So gin and whiskey courses, some boys have are now doing their pilot's license. So you know he's there to kind of nudge boys along. And you know, if you know, if a chap says, oh, I'm interested in in wealth management, he said, oh well, x, y and z sponsored the club. You know, maybe I should, you know, get you introduced to whoever it may be. Um, so he kind of is there to sort of put the links together. So he kind of put me in touch with a few different companies and they said yeah, no worries, come in, have a coffee in the office and see what it's like. Particularly, one of those sponsors was a wealth management firm, so kind of stem from there.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, that's good. It's good to have that sort of individual who comes in from that type of role. So what else did you do then? I mean how it's during a difficult time, everyone struggled, I suppose, through covid in in a different way. What was it like for you then? That realization it's in the covid world, my contract is not being renewed. What on earth is going to happen next? What was going through your mind?
Jason Baggott:yeah, obviously a lot of things. You know it's do I just crack on and find a regular contract elsewhere, or do I find a job, or what do I actually want to do, you know? So a lot of things are kind of going around and around and obviously, fortunately enough, I had the degree in my back pocket, so it was kind of I had that sort of blanket, as it were. So it's you know, having a think. But, as I said, I went into a wealth management office with a sponsor, so that kind of really sparked an interest. So I had an idea of going down that route. One or two players that I previously played with went down that route. So I kind of reached out to them, you know, to ask them listen, what's the script? You know, how do you go about getting into the industry, because it's not a case of just joining and on you go. You need to learn the trade, you need to learn, have the qualifications. So they put me in touch with a company called St James's Place. They have an academy, an advisor academy so I went down that route but the funny
Jason Baggott:story is that. So my contract was coming up to an end, so COVID came around March 20. My contract was coming to the end September. The academy, after going through a series of interviews, was supposed to start in September 2020. So quite nicely coincided there. But unfortunately it was typically a face-to-face sort of program in the office at Edinburgh, so obviously that delayed things. So the Academy only ended up starting in, I think, january or February 2021.
Jason Baggott:So there was a lull between September and February or January. So I kind of had to find something quick to fill the gap because there was postponed on that. So I did a few things to fill my time. You know finding on sort of Indeed or various sort of recruiting websites. One of them was actually Google Maps. So I don't know if you've ever gone to Google and you sort of street view and you can kind of walk down the street basically.
Jason Baggott:So I had to capture that footage. So basically what that was, it was a big, huge electronic pack with this beam that came up with this camera and then you basically get given a map and you have to walk up and down the streets of edinburgh and capture this footage and they would obviously upload it onto google maps. So you'd be talking you're walking 15, 20 kilometers a day just walking up and down streets trying to capture this footage, which is quite funny. So I'd come back home and the missus would be like, oh, how was your day? And then I'd just literally go to bed and fall asleep, pretty fall over.
Jason Baggott:So did that. And then, basically because obviously in Scotland the sun sort of starts setting earlier and earlier, so that sort of stopped around October time. And then I joined the University of London doing an admin role, a remote admin role, which was sort of in the student services aspect, so basically student queries coming through, so I had to do a few bits and pieces here and there before biding my time until the academy actually started. So it was an interesting time.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yes, those jobs. I love the google maps, I love the street view one, so so tell me then now, whenever someone googles it and goes on street view and you're like, oh yeah, I remember walking that path.
Jason Baggott:Yeah, it was actually funny because obviously in and around throughout the day you can't actually take the pack off, you're not allowed to put it on the ground because it's very expensive or it's also quite heavy. So you would walk into a cafe ordering a coffee with this huge backpack on, with this beam, with this huge camera. People are kind of looking at you like what on earth and actually once this woman came up to us an elderly lady she was were sort of some spies trying to, you know, capture footage of Edinburgh. So she actually called the police on us that is brilliant.
Ryan Gonsalves:God, yeah, that is good. So, actually, so, I suppose, even now, because I'm sure many people are listening we're about to go into google and uh, street view around edinburgh. That's what jason did. He was there and I'm probably going to look for that old lady coming up to you, blurred out face as well. Oh, that's, that's good. At least it kept it interesting, I suppose, for you it's. You know doing those roles, was it sounds like it was very much a stop gap for you, with the view that you were going to be going into that academy. How did you know doing those roles, was it sounds like it was very much a stop gap for you, with the view that you were going to be going into that academy. How did you know the academy was was going to be the right decision for you?
Jason Baggott:I didn't, to be honest. Um, it was just, you know, I was always keen on financial services, obviously originally accountancy, as mentioned, but sort of wealth management's, more the sort of how do you say an enjoyable aspect. When my eyes it was, my eyes it was because, you know, I kept on, you know, hearing stories of, if you were an accountant, you were doing an audit at a company. Every time you, as the auditor, would approach the business owner, the business owner would be thinking Jeepers, what's wrong with the book, so what's the problem now? So it was kind of a sort of I don't know a negative aspect towards accountancy and a few of my few of my friends that are still in accountancy, that you know it's long hours and sort of tedious work and it's difficult.
Jason Baggott:I kind of was more drawn to wealth management and didn't know what it was like. I obviously just had this idea right I'm going to help people invest and make their money. At the end of the day, that was my initial thought. So that kind of drew me towards that and didn't know what it would be like. So I just thought I'd give it a, give it a crack and see, see how I get on yeah, great, and so for you going through that.
Ryan Gonsalves:So during the time of that academy, so 2021, how were you? Were you still able to play rugby? Was your season back up? Had you moved into that semi-professional world at that point?
Jason Baggott:yeah, so we're still playing, but obviously the season was put on hold until about april 2021. Um, so when that picked up, because obviously training was in the evenings, so it wasn't didn't really clash with work games on the weekend, so it was picked up again when covid allowed, allowed the rugby to resume and how did you find, then again, this new balance where it flipped, where you had your days were very much on office work and evenings then became rugby and sport.
Ryan Gonsalves:What was the hardest thing for you going through that period?
Jason Baggott:I think, if anything, it was quite enjoyable because I think the the other way around. You use your brain during the day and you've been cooped under an office or home office, and then you've got all this energy and then in the evening, right, let's go and run around for an hour and a half and then come home and go to bed. So, if anything it was, you know, I actually enjoyed it more because, you know, originally it was the other way around. Whereas you know, you kind of, you know, exhaust yourself physically throughout the day and then have to sort of try and switch on and focus the latter part of the day or in the evening, whether it's studying or etc. So it's, uh, I actually enjoyed that sort of run around in the evening and then go to bed. I actually enjoyed that the other way around yeah, and that's it's interesting.
Ryan Gonsalves:It is interesting and I know, as we spoke before you, you're talking about the enjoyment of rugby came back in many respects or was reinvigorated as that shift. What do you think has caused that?
Jason Baggott:I think, perhaps the relief of, I suppose, reduction in pressure. Obviously, naturally, you go to training, that's in the professional ranks, that's your B1 in, or you have to train extremely hard. You might, you know, do extra hours in analysis on the laptop talking to this player. You know, in training trying really, really hard to try, and you know, do X, y and Z in press trying to be selected. So you almost put too much pressure on yourself to perform and I think that you know a lot of the time doesn't achieve that. If anything, it sort of makes things a bit worse. Or you put too much pressure on yourself whereas now it's sort of a case of right. I'm playing because I want to have fun and there's no pressure and it's almost an almost I don't care attitude which is just kind of reduces that stress and brings up the enjoyment yeah, that's right now.
Ryan Gonsalves:That's. That's a good one. I'm interested then now, at least from the academy to where you are today, what were you hoping would happen and what has happened?
Jason Baggott:in terms of the financial academy. So yeah, from there it's um, you know, kind of going through the series of qualifications, exams, and then you make the transition into a client facing role. From there it's been really enjoyable. I managed to, you know, grow clients particularly, you know, assistance from the company as well, as well as bringing my own clients, and you know the business has grown pretty substantially in the last sort of year and a half. It's been really enjoyable and I enjoy the fact that you know every client.
Jason Baggott:Every case is different from the other and, particularly for my work that I do with a lot of the players that I played with and within rugby as well, I can sort of speak with their language because the way I speak to them would be different to a 65 year old couple, you know, retiring, et cetera. So I actually enjoy that side of things, particularly doing workshops. Like I say, we did our last workshop with Ed and Maragli about two weeks ago and it's really simplifying things down and really trying to talk with them rather than these big financial jargon. It's really kind of breaking things down, allowing them to understand, and I really enjoy that side of things.
Jason Baggott:So business has really scaled up, but I really enjoy working with the sportsmen.
Ryan Gonsalves:So tell me a bit more about that. So you're a wealth manager, right? This is what you've become. You know you're working for a firm, so are you as an individual? Do you work across all spectrums? So you're working with young individuals, but also working with as you mentioned, they're retired couples. What does your clientele look like?
Jason Baggott:So naturally with when you kind of start out, you get given a certain client bank from the company. So those kind of range from all sorts, from sort of individuals in their 40s, 50s and 60s as well as into their latter part of their retirement. But I suppose naturally the more clients that I bring on personally are sort of near my demographic or slightly older. So a lot of them are sort of sportsmen and sort of younger professionals with young families. So really helping them a lot with the clientele that I bring on personally, naturally with with my demographic. So but to answer the question, my client bank does range from sort of early on rugby players up until individuals in their 70s or all that are part of their retirement.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, so how did you start to approach your mates? You know your former teammates. What was? Why did you think that would be an important place to go?
Jason Baggott:I didn't. To be honest, that was probably the last place I wanted to go, to be honest, the training with them, and then six months later having a suit on and saying let me help you with your pension. It just doesn't work like that. So I kind of avoided that and I just really kind of wanted to plug on with my own aspects, naturally with social media and that sort of thing, trying to, you know, obviously, promote what I'm doing, promote the business, promote myself as a financial planner, kind of stick things out on social media. So, naturally, my sort of immediate network players, family, friends, they kind of you know seeing, oh, he's done this or he's done that, or there's a client review, or he's working with this firm, or he's out taking clients to, you know, the British Open, it's you know. They naturally pick up on what I've been doing, what I've. You know, then, every time, if I've, if we have, dinner or go for drinks.
Jason Baggott:You know there'll be the odd question on that How's work going? I see you doing this, what do you actually do again? And then you kind of brush it off. And I do help people with their finances and then kind of they spark the inquisitiveness and then eventually at the stage they will, they've obviously done their research like you do x, y and z. You've helped this person, that person. I'm actually needing some help in this part. Can you help me? And then we arrange a meeting and then take things from there. So, by all means, initially I wanted to avoid immediate friends and family and rugby players, initial stages, that's, that's for sure so you spoke a bit on doing talks.
Ryan Gonsalves:So now you're going into different clubs Is that right? And you're working with the young athletes there, giving little workshops or presentations around financial literacy. How did you get into that side of things?
Jason Baggott:So the majority of the work that I'm doing at the moment is primarily with Edinburgh Rugby and that's through that player liaison, Ben Atiga, because obviously his role, like I said previously, is to help boys you know transition but also help boys in their immediate future. So naturally these boys would be coming into a lot of money here and there, be getting bonuses. A lot of tax planning will be going on. Pensions are for old people. They don't think about about that.
Jason Baggott:So Ben and Tega really approached me and said listen, do you fancy having a chat to the boys here and there talking about different aspects? I'll see tax year-end coming up, helping the particular players, maybe the internationals, on trying to plan their finances in a tax-efficient way possible or just advising them through a workshop. Right, lads, If you earn X amount you'll be paying this amount of tax. You know here are ways you can mitigate that. So just really trying to spark interest and getting them to do that. So Ben and Tig has kind of been getting me in here and there with different topics, obviously catered to different niches within the playing group. So young academy players will be budgeting, managing your finances, Internationals will be tax planning and those sort of aspects. The player niche in the middle. You know, right, lads, it's time to sort of start investing or make the most of X, Y and Z.
Ryan Gonsalves:Let's take a little detour, and you know, I think about your path and your career in these sort of workshops, and so, rather than me asking you now about how people should consider their career transition, I want to say let's get specific but kind of general in terms of you're not giving advice, but it's more when you. Then when athletes approach you about this financial side, I mean, what are they saying? What are the types of challenges or situations that they find themselves in?
Jason Baggott:So a lot of them would be say, for example, some of them will be earning between $100,000 and $125,000, for example, they don't realize that the amount of income that they earn is a 60% tax trap, so that portion of their money is being eroded by 60%. They obviously have ways on to reduce your taxable earnings to obviously mitigate that. So that's sort of a pain point for a lot of the players as well. Players earning the high rate tax bands over sort of £125,000, obviously that amount is being taxed at 47% to try and mitigate that. A lot of them don't realize how to get started with investments. So different tax allowances, so stocks and shares, isas or various pension contributions or different products that allow them to invest money but in a tax-efficient way possible. So it's really sort of finding out their situation, their circumstance and seeing where they can obviously have a goal in mind but save money on tax and have a plan in place is essentially what we're trying to do with these workshops.
Ryan Gonsalves:Yeah, some of it is just interesting just listening to you say that, and whilst the people are going to be listening from all over globally, I think there's still that similar perspective where athletes, especially if they're in that bubble, may not even be aware certainly a professional game, aware of how much they earn compared to or relative to the rest of the population, and so just the the knowledge or thinking or thought activity that should therefore come into play is something they wouldn't do, because if I'm 24, my mates are 24, like you say, I'm not even thinking about all of that other stuff. Yet their earnings perhaps put them into normalized age bracket where they do think of investing retirement and elements like that. Do you see it in that way, or am I missing something?
Jason Baggott:No, absolutely. And put myself back in my shoes five years ago. Right, awesome, sign my new contract, I get paid X amount per year. Job done, I just wait for my salary to come in every month. And there you go, not realizing how much tax I pay, not realizing how the tax system works, not realizing how much tax I do pay.
Jason Baggott:And unfortunately, a lot of the players are the same, particularly the higher end owners Scottish internationals, british and Irish Lions. They'll get bonuses left, right and center. They just get a tax bill from HMRC. There you go on, you go Bit of a sting, but you have to do that. But they don't realize that there are ways that they can mitigate that or reduce their tax liability and actually direct it towards an investment that's for their long term future and particularly a lot of the players.
Jason Baggott:The unfortunate reality is that most of them will reach their earning peak throughout their agri-career, so they earn the most amount of money that they're ever going to earn in their life and then retire at the age of 35 if they're lucky, and then they've still got another 50 or 60 years to live. So really trying to make them realize that there's a huge tax burden that can be reduced, but then also making a plan in place for medium to long-term goals, but also creating an investment that provides a bit of a transition fund. So if they retire at the age of 35, a lot of them will have high living costs, so they go from earning £300,000 a year to £20,000 a year. There's going to be a massive shortfall, so they're naturally going to be inclined to find the quickest job possible rather than something they actually want to do. But by having that sort of slush fund they can buy themselves 12 months of expenditure. That's there to take three months off. You and the missus just enjoy yourself.
Ryan Gonsalves:Then the next nine months you've got covered, costs covered, so that you can sort of find your feet and what you want to do next that's fairly sound and, I think you know, broad enough for many athletes dual athletes, olympic athletes, professional athletes, depending on where they are to certainly start to think about that as an output. How would someone go about doing that? So an athlete who's now listening is thinking yeah, that's interesting, I should, I should do that. How would they do it?
Jason Baggott:so typically I suppose most clubs or most athletes will have some sort of relationship with a wealth management firm. I suppose wealth management likes to get their, their teeth into. You know sponsors at rugby, particularly golf, so I'd imagine they would have some sort of relationship there, um, with the wealth management firm, but, um, purely just kind of reaching out to them and having a, an initial consultation. So a lot of people think financial planners, how much? What's the minimum investment? How much they charge a meeting? Most don't actually charge, some do, don't get me wrong. But just having that first initial discussion being right, you know that that meeting is really designed. You know, from our point of view it's non-obligatory and it's obviously free of charge. It's really a chance to have a coffee and say, right, here are my issues, how can you help me? And then it's all right, well, we can help you. Hit by doing x, y and z. This is what it will look like, moving forward, so that first meeting is really designed to find out how we can help you, and then thereafter it's like well, yes, we can help you, perfect, well, let's start the process. We would then arrange another meeting, which is a sort of a fact find meeting so really gather information on your circumstance, how much you're earning, your income, your assets, your liabilities, your client situation as such and then we can formulate recommendations off the back of that.
Jason Baggott:So that's a series of sort of two meetings. We then go away and then formulate advice or recommendations through our regulatory frameworks, using our regulators, et cetera, and compliance. Then we kind of come back and have a third meeting which is a presentation. So there's no cost for the meetings. At that presentation there is a recommendation right. You know your tax situation is this. We can mitigate it by doing X, y and Z. You want to invest for the future? We recommend doing X, y and Z and then kind of going through what we can recommend and from there if anything is implemented, then there'll be costing code for that. But all the way up to that process you could quite easily from that presentation meeting have an understanding of what you need to do from there without actually costing you anything. So it's definitely worthwhile having a chat and seeing you know what sort of potentially do moving forward go.
Ryan Gonsalves:Thank you, jason, I think I think that's good and what's interesting, as you mentioned, the mentioned, for many athletes, whatever discipline, wherever they are in the world, usually through their association or club or player association, there'll be somebody who will have some partnership, or at least they'll be able to refer it out to someone who can sort them out with that financial literacy and wealth planning for them. I think that's fantastic. So, listen, you know a little bit about sort of yourself now in you know, coming through your transition, where do you see yourself going next?
Jason Baggott:So it's really kind of continuing as it is, to be honest, really kind of growing the business from the financial arm but kind of scaling up probably more sort of the rugby side of things. Like I say, we've got a few clients on board that are sort of more your high profile players, getting more of an established relationship with a few other clubs, doing sort of the free financial workshops, just promoting that financial awareness and obviously kind of working with them. I'd really like to kind of concentrate on that. Obviously, the other side of the business is kind of sorted itself out. You know we have a wide range of, you know client base out with that.
Jason Baggott:But me personally I really enjoy the professional athletes, whether it's rugby. I love to work with golfers. I'm a big golf fan and you know that's. I really enjoy the sporting side of helping them and particularly the plans we can put in place for for allowing them to make the transition with uh, you know, with relative ease. So that's definitely the next thing for me rugby side play as much rugby as I can until the shoulder is given really that's absolutely brilliant, jason, listen.
Ryan Gonsalves:I want to say you know definitely. Thanks very much for sharing your journey. I've just got one, just one more question. You know, for those listening you've probably given little nuggets of advice and guidance as we've gone through the conversation, but you know from your perspective and perhaps what you're learning now. What sorts of guidance would you be saying to an athlete who's thinking how do I best set myself up for my career transition? How do I best set myself up to find my career second wind? What would you say to them?
Jason Baggott:I definitely think, during their career, obviously planning their finances correctly to allow that sort of slush fund to sort of when you make the transition, whether it's a forced transition due to injury or you just think time is right having that slush fund to sort of make sure you you aren't forced into the next best thing, it's really, really a case of right. Do I want to do this so it buys yourself a bit of time. But also, whilst in your career, I would definitely recommend using those off days. I know you're probably buggered Monday, tuesday, maybe a Wednesday off and then Thursday, friday I was in the same boat on a Wednesday I just want to kind of put the feet up and just rest up. But if you can really utilize, you know, if you're in a team environment or you have sponsors, sort of using that off day to you know, go and meet people within your, your networks, particularly rugby. People love rugby players, particularly in Edinburgh big rugby community. You know you walk anywhere. They're more than happy to help you. So, using your sponsors, using your networks, go and spend an afternoon trying to find out what the sponsorship does.
Jason Baggott:Basically, you can have a long list and then write. You know I went to my sponsor who does a wealth management, who's a wealth management firm Don't like wealth management. You take that off the list. That's not for you. The next one is you know, if you want to become a pilot, go spend a morning in a pilot center and see what they do. If you don't like that, take that off the list. So basically, you have a long list by the time you retire. You've kind of ticked off the things you don't like and then you've obviously got a smaller list with potentially the things that you potentially might like um, you know, after your career.
Jason Baggott:So rather do that sooner rather than later, otherwise you know you have to do that list when you retire I like Jason.
Ryan Gonsalves:That's absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much for joining me on the show and sharing your career transition story, and it's wonderful to hear the great work you're doing for that next generation of athletes coming through as well. Thanks for joining me today.
Jason Baggott:No problem. Thanks very much for having me.
Ryan Gonsalves:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.