2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
104: Dorian Pickens - From Professional Basketball to a Thriving Career at Fanatics
Dorian Pickens, a former professional basketball player, transitioned from the court to a thriving career in the sports business world. How did Dorian weigh the uncertain prospects of the G League and overseas play against the opportunities in real estate? Join us as Dorian shares his transition story, emphasizing the pivotal role of mentorship and networking, and how experiences at Adidas, Nike, and now Fanatics have shaped his new professional path. You'll also hear about his latest move to Dallas and the continuous evolution of his career.
Tune in to learn more about:
- What sports meant to him growing up and what drew him to love basketball
- The decisions he had to make to balance his academics and passion for sports
- What influenced his decision on where to study sports and his academy, despite being on opposite sides of the spectrum
- Reflections on his collegiate basketball years
- The moment he realized his professional career wouldn't last and the first steps he took afterward
- The sense of sorrow, fear, and uncertainty athletes experience when closing that chapter
- What supports him in excelling in his current role
- His insightful perspective on teamwork in sports and how it translates to the business world
…and so much more!
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorian-pickens
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dpick
What happened from a career perspective? Okay, basketball to the side, we're now raising this more traditional career path up. What were your expectations?
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I think my expectations were extremely uncertain to an extent. You know my decision to stop playing. Yes, it could have put me in a position to, of course, get picked up and who knows you know accomplish who knows what. There's also a great opportunity and a great circumstance in which that also does not happen and I stay in the G League or I go back over to, you know, overseas and play for a number of years, whereas this decision to kind of move into the space of real estate at the time I was also fully understanding of real estate might not be that thing that I end up doing. But I do know that, if I'm able to dedicate myself again more full time to a professional career, I have a great mentorship base, a great network of alumni colleagues that I had met across the MBA, individuals in my support system that I knew I could lean on to help me get to wherever it was that I wanted to get to.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Dorian. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and tuning in from the West Coast over here in the United States.
Speaker 1:That is good. Well, listen, man, I would say it is good to have you here. The beauty of this podcasting is that we get to speak across waters, across time zones, which means that the message gets spread high and wide on the importance of that, this sort of athlete career transition. So looking forward to delving into your story a little bit more and helping the listeners learn.
Speaker 2:For sure. Definitely, you know, excited to also share my stories. It's been an interesting one, much like a lot of the listeners and yourself and former athletes. Current athletes will be reaching a transitionary point eventually, right? And then someone who's having kind of experienced it and been on the other side for some time now, excited to share man and excited to help.
Speaker 1:Good man. Well, look for those who are listening a lot of listeners they're going to be tuning in. They might not know a lot about you. Do you want to just give us an intro, who you are and sort of what's happening in your world at the moment? Sure, of course.
Speaker 2:As you mentioned, my name is Dorian Pickens, originally from Phoenix Arizona, so the wild, wild west. Probably as those who are unfamiliar with it would consider it, probably as those who are unfamiliar with it would consider it. Former professional basketball player for a couple of years, played collegially at Stanford for some time as well, Currently working kind of in the sports business world doing kind of strategy business operations globally for Fanatics. Prior to which was at Adidas for two years working kind of primarily with Adidas basketball and then some of our partnerships and innovation teams over there kind of the footwear, athlete apparel space, fashion space, whatever you want to call it sportswear industry. And then, prior to which, I was at Nike for about a year or so doing some similar work, but still kind of staying tied to sport, just from the behind the scenes business perspective.
Speaker 2:Then before then was playing professionally, as I mentioned. So I was with the Boston Celtics and their organization or G League or minor league affiliate organization for about a year or so and then played professionally overseas for a season or two as well. So have been across the world, have been across the United States, have been kind of across corporate America in a few senses, and that's brought me to here now. We're actually just we're chatting moved to Dallas this week, kind of for a new job with Fanatics that I recently took. So a lot of change is happening. You know, even when you stop playing, the change doesn't stop Right, and so you know, excited to enter that next chapter.
Speaker 1:Man, that's brilliant. That's a great overview as well, I've got to say. The amount of team transition, geographic transition, athletic transit, all of these different changes that have been going on in your world and still to this day are happening. That's absolutely amazing how well you've just been able to keep your head whilst doing this change. I mean, has it seemed immense to you as you go through it?
Speaker 2:It has, you know, I would say it definitely has felt immense in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:But I think also, you know sport prepares you for that.
Speaker 2:Growing up, having played sports, you know, since I was two or three years old, primarily basketball, but trying the gamut of soccer, baseball, american football, whatever it was you know there's constant change, there's constant evolution and growth that you know you have as a youth, as an adolescent, as a young adult, and so for me it's been immense change in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:But sport, I think, has prepared me, you know, in some of the intangible ways of prioritization, being flexible in terms of where you're going to live, always kind of keeping track of what's most important in your life and why you do things and bringing it back to kind of purpose or intention that help you get through those times of immense change right, or times of discomfort, because they don't stop when you put the ball down right, continue, you got bills to pay, you'll, you'll hopefully, for myself speaking, we'll have a family. You know, sooner at some point that that adds another layer of complexity and so it's all part of life, and so for me the transitions have have been great, they've been enjoyable and who knows what the future holds as well?
Speaker 1:that's right. Future, that's uh, all to come. But let's talk to me a bit about, then, how sport kicked off for you. So you know, we talk about that athletic transition. So where you grew up, how you grew up, what was? What did sport mean for you as a, as a child?
Speaker 2:yeah, for me sport meant everything. You know, I come from a unique background and my mom and her side of family are from europe and they're from ukraine actually, and so, uh, a family immigrated to the United States to kind of set up shop in New York, like a lot of families. My dad's from Alabama and so, if you're familiar with Alabama, he's from Tuscaloosa in particular, big Alabama Crimson Tide fan, huge football fan, basketball fan, lover of sport, and he's the one that really got me into the game, into sports in general, at a really young age. I would always, you know, watch highlight tapes of Michael Jordan, a lot of soccer matches. You know, growing up as well, zinedine Zidane was one of my favorite players, actually, ironically enough, and my mom's side of the family was kind of big into the football or soccer space, and so they really got me going just in terms of finding my love for the game something I was passionate about, grew up kind of in the modest in a lot of ways and found sport to be kind of the connecting piece for my life, right, whether, you know, it was making friends, whether it was pushing myself and having goals I wanted to chase after and achieve, or whether it was just having fun and trying to be like the idols that we all watched.
Speaker 2:Growing up, you know, sport for me was something that I knew I wanted to be into at the best level that I could, and so started at a young age I was saying, probably about two or three years old on the West Coast in Arizona and kind of basketball was my calling, probably because A my height I was always taller than a lot of kids, which helps you know when you're trying to play basketball, of course, and then just for the excitement of the game. You know I loved it. You know, especially growing up, the late 90s or early 2000s, late Michael Jordan years, obviously, kobe Bryant, shaquille O'Neal being a huge LeBron fan, all those things drew me to love sports and love basketball and be passionate.
Speaker 1:So what's interesting there is that family dynamic means you certainly watched different sports as you were, as you were growing up. At what point did you realize you were good at basketball? When did that become that, that chosen sport, and you saw yourself? Hey, there might be something that can come of this.
Speaker 2:I think it was probably as I was entering maybe 10, 11 years old, so kind of right before my adolescent years, I really zoned in on basketball as being, I think, what was best for me, not only because I love the sport the most in comparison to the other sports I was playing or having fun with friends playing, and also because it was something that I was naturally good at in a lot of ways and so obviously I was a bigger kid and so that helped me develop a passion and kind of level up the ranks quite quickly and it was something that I, you know, love to do and realize I can make, you know, a career out of it.
Speaker 2:I could play through college, provide for my family, do all of these things that I began to start seeing and realizing through talking to family, friends, coaches, my parents, and so that kind of led me to focus solely on basketball for the next 10, 15 years of my life and dedicate everything I had to being the best athlete that I could and also being the best person and student that I could as well.
Speaker 1:Talking about that student piece. How did you manage to find this balance, or, in fact, what decisions did you have to make to be able to follow that academic and that sporting sort of passion or pathway?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough right, especially as a child and even as a professional athlete as well. You only have so much time, energy and effort you can dedicate to things right or that you can spread yourself across. And so, as I was mentioning, my dad kind of really got me into sports at a young age and so he was really pushing me hard and being the best athlete that I can be and putting in the work, having an extreme dedication and trying to be the best at whatever it is that you do, whatever it may be, but obviously in the sports sense in particular and my mom was, she was the academic piece, and so she was the one that was always. You can't go to practice until you finish your homework, no-transcript. And then I was setting myself up to be successful, whether or not sports worked out Right.
Speaker 2:And so there's those two pieces that I really was able to kind of balance in the best way that I could. And then the social piece and the friend piece and the kind of being a kid piece sometimes had to take a backseat to some of those pieces. Sport and academics, academics, if that's what I really wanted to do, and having made that choice at an early age and having you know, realized I don't have time to do my homework, go to practice and go out with my friends, really set me up on a trajectory to be successful, you know, in a professional sense, in a sports sense, just in terms of managing my time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, what's really interesting is. You know I asked the question between academics and sport. It sounds like your tussle was between mom and dad, you know in terms of who you're going to focus on, or please, over that particular time.
Speaker 1:That in itself is quite funny. Over that particular time that in itself is quite funny, I suppose. Taking that through to college how much of a weighting did the course and the institution have a bearing on your decision about where to go? Was it sport, was it academic? How did you find that decision-making process?
Speaker 2:That's a great question because I think it's an interesting one For me. As I said, as I was able to kind of focus from an early age on sport and academics, my priorities were kind of in line by the time it came to deciding what university I wanted to go to. And, having been fortunate enough to be one of the top 100 players in the world globally, coming out of high school I had 30 plus, 40 plus offers to go to different universities on a full ride scholarship, which is obviously incredible. But at the same time, to your point, then it's like well, where do I go? Right, and there's all these basketball sense, there's the Duke of the world, and there's North Carolina and all these major kind of basketball schools that are historic right in the sport for a number of reasons, whether it's players, whether it's championships, whether it's historic coaches, all of the above.
Speaker 2:And so for me, as I began to really weigh out what school or university I would choose, it was important to me that I not only chose the best athletic situation but also the best academic situation, right. That would not only make this decision a four year decision or a three year decision or two year decision, but more of a lifetime decision, and when I was able to look at it through that lens, it became clear that Stanford was the clear choice for me, not only from athletic sense and that year over year we're pumping out Olympians, professional athletes, everything of the sort but also from the academic perspective. I'm around and going to class every day with some of the brightest and most intellectual individuals in the world, right across every industry, across every academic kind of subject that you can think of. And so that's when I really dawned on me that, you know, stanford will be a perfect fit for me to not only exceed, excel and push myself, but also just to be around. Greatness and that's something that you know, I pride myself in doing even to this day is just being around great individuals who have similar kind of intangible skills, hopes, dreams, ideologies, big thinking, innovative outlook on life, etc. And so that's kind of how I reached, you know, the conclusion that Stanford was a perfect choice, and at that point in time a lot of other schools really caught my attention or interest that a lot of other schools really caught my attention or interest.
Speaker 1:That's really good, really clear way of sort of certainly looking back or reflecting on how that decision was made. So thanks for sharing that. I'm curious about that athletic transition you mentioned. You know you're entering college, you're one of the top 100 players or so in the world and you know, moving into then this collegiate environment. Now, during that time there's a big shift athletically focus. You know, dreams, aspirations. So as you went into college, what was your or what were your hopes, dreams, from an athletic perspective?
Speaker 2:I think you know, as any kid in a similar situation or any athlete in a similar situation, you think you're going to go to whatever next level it is and dominate or try and be the best and have all of these exceed expectations, et cetera, et cetera. And I would say, for me, my first year of college, my freshman year, was probably one of the toughest years that I experienced playing sports, for a lot of the reasons that it wasn't exactly what I maybe had thought, on a personal scale, would be achieved or would be accomplished or would be whatever Right.
Speaker 1:And so a lot of that was.
Speaker 2:Talk us through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk us through it.
Speaker 2:I think, as I mentioned, you know, when you are a kid coming into a bigger league, right, you know, when you get to the college or university ranks, everyone's the best player from the year prior from high school or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:And you know, coming into my freshman year, we had a great team, you know, I think we had four or five, maybe even six guys who ended up playing professionally, a couple of guys who ended up, you know, playing in the NBA for some time and are still playing professionally today A really great roster and we were able to win a lot of games.
Speaker 2:We won the NIT championship that year and finding playing time and finding my role on that team was difficult, right, just with so much talent and so many older guys who are three, four years older than me, more physically developed, used to the speed, whatever it was Right.
Speaker 2:And so for me it took a lot of internal reflection, I think, throughout that season and ultimately towards the end of the season, in that, hey, if I want to compete at the level that I think I can, I know I can, people have entrusted me to do so I got to put in the work Right and I got to go above and beyond to to begin to continue excelling my professional career in the athletic space if that's what I wanted to do, professional career in the athletic space if that's what I wanted to do and just to be able to enjoy the day to day Right.
Speaker 2:And so I think it came with like a level of trauma to an extent, right, just in that it was such a severe situation for a 17 year old kid coming into college and thinking you're going to be this and in reality you have to actually start down here and start from scratch and build yourself back up. And so for me, in a lot of ways, it was that realization, which was a great experience for me to be on that team and be with those guys who are close friends of mine and brothers of mine still to this day and teaching me a lot about what it would take, from an athletic perspective, to be where I wanted to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how did you get through that moment then? What did you do or who did you lean on to help move you through that year or those early beginnings at Stanford?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of it is my teammates, to be honest, for a number of reasons, I think my parents as well, obviously, as my support system. As an only child, I don't have brothers and sisters who I could lean on a whole lot, because there's nothing like that for me. So mom and dad were always kind of the rock, you know, in those situations, nothing like that for me. So mom and dad were always kind of the rock, you know, in those situations, close friends that I grew up with or that I built relationships with throughout my adolescent years were in the mix as well. But it was really hard to find people who could fully understand the situation of what I was experiencing, other than my teammates at that time.
Speaker 2:Because, aside from that athletic piece being extremely challenging long days mentally it was a lot psychologically, spiritually.
Speaker 2:It's a lot to experience and go through and deal with.
Speaker 2:You also have the academic piece at a university like Stanford, where class is not a time to relax, or you get to go home and it's not.
Speaker 2:You get to nap, you have to go home, and now you have to write a 20 page paper, right, and so the people who could really only relate to me in that strong sense were my teammates or alumni or whoever had kind of been through something that was similar in a lot of ways. And so my teammates were in the trenches with me, they were going through the workouts with me, they were at class with me, they were at study hall with me, we went to go eat all the time together, and so that bond that we built through going through those really tough experiences has brought us extremely close, and so they were really, you know, pivotal in those in those tougher times early on in college now that's really good does highlight the importance of, I guess, team and that essence of team isn't just on the court, isn't just in sport, but it is a support structure around the game as well, really developing the whole person.
Speaker 2:Definitely and I think that's something that was great for me to experience and anyone who's been in a team setting or a sports setting to experience, because when you get to life after sports, it's important to then again find that team, find who's going to be in your corner, find who you can lean on, find the people that you can look to for mentorship, can support you, help you through making tough decisions, whatever it is. So that really brought me together, you know, extremely close with my teammates during those years and also helped turn me into a better person and a better leader.
Speaker 1:You know, down the road, yeah and look, we're certainly going to chat about that. I suppose that life after sport and you as, I guess, an emerging leader or developing leader in your field. I'm interested then for that shift for you coming out of college. What shifted so, those aspirations as you came in top 100, boom, you keep rising, keep going to the top. As you came out of college, what had changed?
Speaker 2:I think a couple of things, a couple of things that changed for me in a lot of ways, especially as I went through those collegiate years, was not only building my kind of intangible skill set who I was as a young man, you know in totality who I was as a player, of course, through developing transition out of college. I then was looking at the professional ranks, right, and so playing professional sports, looking at making that next jump from college to professional. I had an idea now that, hey, when you get to the pros, when you get to the NBA, when you go play at a high level European basketball, you're then again starting from zero, right, and so a lot of those same kind of habits, behaviors that I had developed at college or during those college years, I carried with me to the professional ranks and it made that transition for me a lot easier, right, and I think it also allowed me to, once I was able to leave Stanford and kind of go through the NBA pre-draft process and work out for a number of NBA teams and whatever it was, I could now focus solely on basketball. I could focus only on my sport, right. I had graduated or I was about to graduate and that was kind of signed, sealed and delivered, and now I could give everything that I had to playing basketball right and being the best player. I could be, taking care of my body, focusing all my efforts towards being the best player that I could be.
Speaker 2:And so that was also a nice and refreshing realization to be like, hey, now I can focus on one thing, I can get paid for it. It's not going to be easy, but at the same time, this is what your aspirations were when you picked up, you know, basketball. At two or three years old, this is what you wanted to do, and so that was, you know, an incredible moment to finally have that transitionary point. But you know it wasn't easy. Right, it's never easy, but it's always, you know, part of the journey that's right.
Speaker 1:Good reflecting back on it as well, thinking about how the collegiate years helped shape you. Actually gave you that sort of struggle at least, and the reward was the ability to focus on you and focus on the game and really see how that reality could come true, I suppose I I mean talk about that experience. What was that like for you, that pre-draft process? What was you know? You spoke about that professional career. Let's delve. What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:It was great man, it was incredible. And so I think to your initial point, having those tough moments, you know, in college and going through those challenging experiences, right, those are all growth opportunities and growth, pivotal growth moments, at least in my personal development, right, not only as a player but as a young adult, and helping me prepare for when you do become a professional or when you do reach these actual big moments and you don't just finish your freshman year. And so I had been able to kind of strategically after my freshman year, schedule my course load so that at the end of my senior year, my last kind of quarter after my freshman year scheduled my course load so that at the end of my senior year my last kind of quarter of school or last semester of school was quite light because I'd be preparing for the NBA draft, which is an incredible experience. You know I spent the last three, four months of my collegiate years down in Orange County, down in the Irvine area, with my agent and a number of other NBA prospects working out twice a day.
Speaker 2:We're watching film, we're doing recovery together.
Speaker 2:You know we're flying around and working out for certain NBA teams across the country or teams are coming in and coming into our workouts and watching our visual workouts, playing 5-on-5 pickup, whatever it is right, and extremely physically enduring and also mentally enduring three, four months right, and extremely physically enduring and also mentally enduring three, four months right, leading up to the draft and there's only 60 picks right, and so everyone's. Yeah, we're friends, but at the same time, we're fighting for jobs, we're fighting for money, we're fighting for opportunities, it's true competitive sport atmosphere, and so, for me, it was great to be able to experience all of those things right, and not only what I've been working my whole life to do, but also just being present, being in the moment and trying to enjoy every minute of it, because it's so rare that you get to play the sport you love through college. Playing beyond college is even more rare, and so that's a whole piece of the mix that you have to be grateful for, day in and day out, even when the times get tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is the bit that I find so fascinating through sport, but also the way your experience just there. You're traveling around the country, young men competing, yet trying to work together, one another, yet fighting for one of the very few spots. I mean, just what was that like for you? How aware of the situation are you at that time of this is you're my friend, but actually I want, I want your spot right, I think at the time you're aware of it, but not to the extent of the awareness that I have now.
Speaker 2:Right, because, looking back, we're all in the same boat. We're all you trying to make the best of what we've dreamed of doing for our entire lives, and we're doing it together. You know, we don't have any animosity to one another. We're living together in different houses they had set up for us in Orange County, so we're with each other all the time, right, for the most part working out together and competing in that sense, which is great. And then when you know that the lights are on and the teams are scouting you or you're at a workout, now, everything's magnified, right, and so all of your behaviors and demeanors are magnified. Every inch of your body is tested for length, athleticism, speed, whatever it is. Your workouts, every metric is being tracked how many shots you make, how many dribbles you take, whatever it is Right. And so it's a truly, truly competitive environment, right, and it's extremely serious At that same time, I think, being around each other day in and day out, we're able to separate the time when we can hang out and the time when it's go time, right, and it's much like being in a team environment.
Speaker 2:You, though, we're not on the same team. These are my teammates for the next couple of months. Right, we're practicing together, we're going to workouts together. To some extent, we're fighting for playing time. In this instance, we're fighting for actual money or opportunity or a spot on the team, and so I think, looking back on that entire process, you're able to be much more grateful and thankful for those moments. However, when you're in it day in and day out, it's kind of pedal to the metal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, fascinating it really is, on how that shapes the way you work today. You know in someone like Fanatics and, you know, develop your sort of after sport view on teamwork, because it's very different. Oh indeed, let's hold that. Let's hold that. We're going to get to that soon. We'll get to that bit soon. I suppose I want to move through then for you, what professional you know, what was your full-time sport? I mean, what came after this sort of pre-draft period and how did you move through your sort of full-time professional career?
Speaker 2:For sure. And so I guess, throughout this time actually I'll take it back a little bit the beginning portion of my senior year I experienced an injury and I tore my plantar fascia on the bottom of my foot. Actually, I believe in, like the second game of the season, another moment of turmoil, of adversity that kind of came into play, especially as I was gearing up for my senior year. I was probably the best player that I had ever been. At that point, physically, talent-wise, mentally, cerebrally, I think I was in a great spot just to lead that team to be successful. And second game into the season, I get hurt and I'm out for most of that season. So I'm out for about half the season, give or take. And so, going into the pre-draft process, you know I finished out the season wasn't a hundred percent went through pre-drafts still not probably a hundred percent, but but playing, you know this is. This is the time when you don't want to sit out right and you want to be there and you have to push through the pain and so ended up going undrafted. All that to say, I was thinking about, you know, do I want to go into the G League? Do I want to go overseas what would be the best fit for me, and I felt, you know, my agency felt, you know, at that time, playing a year in Europe will be great, not only to experience high level basketball with a team that could really propel my career, but also helped me get back to full health and helped me get back to you know who I was as a player.
Speaker 2:And so first year out of college didn't stay in the States, actually went to play in Belgium for a year in Lindbergh, which was an incredible experience that I can't, you know, appreciate enough. I think not only for the aspect of, yes, you're in a beautiful country. I think not only for the aspect of, yes, you're in a beautiful country. It's, you know, very culturally diverse. Ninety five plus percent of people speak English, so it makes that transition piece easier.
Speaker 2:But it also allowed me to kind of stay in love with the game, right, and kind of keep in touch with what my goals, dreams and aspirations were, in another sense, right. And it opened up some of my kind of peripheral vision of what actually takes place and what it takes to be a professional athlete. Right, and now this is your job and you're you're not in the United States. You're not, you know, in your home country. You're not in your home territory, you have to deliver at your highest ability, and so it was a great year that I spent in Belgium, kind of uh, not only developing myself as a person, but developing on the court as well.
Speaker 1:And then selecting Belgium and the team, the city. Was it just a focus, then, on the team and the level of the team and the sort of minutes you'd get, or to what extent did you have to consider things like English language, location, travel? What were the influences on making that decision For me?
Speaker 2:it was, and for a lot of young guys in a similar situation, it's led by the basketball. I think being in a great city or being somewhere that's beautiful and everyone speaks English, those are all accessories and those are all the cherry on top right. But more so, it was important for me to be on a team that was good, where I'd have the opportunity to go and play so that I could focus solely on basketball, and it would elevate my career to the next level and to the next contract or the next club or whatever it may be, and helping that club win basketball games, essentially, and so it was very much led by that basketball portion. However, you do have to consider the life pieces, of course, as being kind of benefits to that, but at the same time, I was a professional now and I was focused on being the best professional that I could, and in doing that, it really led by me making decisions based on what would help my basketball career.
Speaker 1:And what did it do for the basketball career?
Speaker 2:It did wonders, I think, in a lot of ways, looking back, it was great for me to go over there and play rather than staying here for that first year out of school. For a number of reasons. I think I was able to showcase, you know, my playing ability in a different way, in that the European game or basketball that's played internationally and not in the NBA, is a lot more fundamentally sound. It's a lot more difficult to score, it's a lot more difficult to play defense, because some of the rules are a little bit different. And it also allowed me to kind of fully dedicate myself, in that I was an American with a team of mainly Belgian players to put the work in and have the time and space to want to develop and continue progressing my career. And so, after I spent that nine or 10 month season in Belgium, came back to the States, came back to Arizona. Then I'm in Scottsdale working out and my agent calls me and he said it was a great season and you know, the Boston Celtics called and they wanted to have you come to training camp. You know the following fall and so all of that. You know, nine, 10 month kind of break from the NBA aspirations, the dreams, but dedicating yourself still to being a professional and all the work that you put in and staying kind of feel reassured that that decision was the right one to make at that time and not everyone's kind of career.
Speaker 2:Trajectory is a straight line of growth, but it does come with a lot of adversity. Given I'm from the West Coast, I grew up a Laker fan Kobe Shaq, to be in Boston and be wearing a green jersey and all that stuff was a little bit weird but it was an incredible experience nonetheless. I think just the history that the organization has if you walk into the practice facility, the arena, it's lined up with championship banners as far as the eye can see. There's a level and standard of professionalism, integrity, execution, achievement, hard work that you don't get with many organizations. Whatever the sport is right and we're talking about one of the premier organizations across all sports and so to have the opportunity to be at training camp, you know, with the best players in the world at their craft and on a really good team. I didn't make that 12-man roster but was with their minor league affiliate for a lot of that following season in Maine, but nonetheless it was an incredible time to be me and to be able to be a part of that.
Speaker 1:What I hear in your story is also this sort of emotional transition that takes place, which is from this dream of being a pro player, a basketball player, and winning and those types of things, and that shift. The way you described that experience in Belgium was less about that focus on the stars and all that success, but it was a focus on being a professional. It was set in a standard of okay, now, now I'm a pro, that means I'm working hard, that means I'm doing these things. There's a sort of a standard that needs to be set and it's, I hear, that shift. You know, is that something you found as well? It was hey, this is now, I'm working now, and I got to do this first.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, and something that kind of resonated with me early on, just as I was making that transition from college to the professional ranks, is you hear the notion of keeping the main thing, the main thing. A lot of times in college especially now with NIL and all these social media kids are superstars above and beyond in high school. Right, they're getting endorsement deals. They're treated with a level of celebrity status and fame. Right, they're getting endorsement deals. They're treated with a level of celebrity status and fame. The cameras are always on you.
Speaker 2:You feel probably at times like you're invincible, or maybe that you're better than you are, and that all comes back down to keeping the main thing, the main thing. The reason that, you know, I played basketball and I loved playing basketball for as long as I did. Well, because I love to play the sport, I love to put in the work, work. I love the journey that it took me on. I learned all the, you know, I loved all the pieces of teamwork that I, you know, learned along the way as I worked towards this goal. Right, I didn't play basketball initially or when you're younger, to make money. You play because you love the sport.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, for me, as I made that transition into actually playing professionally and going over to Belgium, it was keeping the main thing, the main thing.
Speaker 2:I wasn't in the NBA, I wasn't, maybe again in a place where I thought I might be, but I was able to do what I love and I was able to, you know, travel the world and being grateful for those moments and being present and working towards a goal of, hey, maybe you're not, maybe, where you thought you would be, but we can still get there. But we have to put in the work every day in order for that to be an opportunity, and so that was something for me that did click during those times, for sure, and I think that's why, when I got to Boston, I was ready for the opportunity, excited, and knew what it would take to continue to progress, to even be there right and to even be able to uh, you know, have the opportunity to be a part of an organization like that at what point in your basketball career did you start to recognize this isn't going to last.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to make a change.
Speaker 2:It's a great question and for me, I would break it down into really like I'll phase it into two separate phases. I'll call it that Because I think for me, being young, having the parents I did, and their influence on me to focus on basketball, of course, and also focus on academics, subconsciously the ball's going to stop bouncing eventually, hearing that over and over again. But you know, as a teenager, as an adolescent, it doesn't really sink in, right. It's like, yeah, I know it will, but not for any time in the future that I can see right now and so early on I kind of had that subconscious knowledge that it would stop. No-transcript phase of it really actually hit me towards the end of that first year, you know, in Boston, just with the organization and for a number of reasons, but I think primarily in that, as I was getting older and you know you get banged up with injuries and all those things, you also start to realize that this is not something that's going to last forever, maybe because I physically am unable to do that or play the way that I, you know, know or want to play, but also in that, hey, maybe I don't want to play this sport or I don't want to be an athlete, you know, forever.
Speaker 2:I do have other aspirations, other interests.
Speaker 2:You know I went to Stanford to be able to entertain those interests and set myself up to do a number of things after I was done playing, and so that's when it kind of really hit me and reality sank in that, hey, you know, I would love to begin diversifying kind of my energy and my time into what may be after.
Speaker 2:Sports also made me realize that and have that conversation in real time reflection with myself of if I'm not going to be able to enjoy basketball and have that same love for it that I do because I'm starting to entertain these other things, I know that basketball will begin to my basketball performance, my play will begin to deteriorate if I don't give everything I have to it. And so that became the real discussion of if I want to entertain these other things and I want to begin setting up, you know, other interests outside of actually playing. I need to make a decision because it's unfair to myself, my teammates, the sport of basketball and its integrity if I don't get everything that I have to being the best that I can be. And so I would say those are the moments in my life when I really realized, you know like hey, I'm not going to be playing forever and maybe I should start looking towards what's next.
Speaker 1:And so what was the first thing you did? To figure out what was next.
Speaker 2:I think for me it's. Being a professional athlete does a lot of great things, but one thing that I think it does the best is it opens up your access access to opportunities, access to, obviously, financial success, access to whatever it is right and people. Your network expands, everything kind of takes off. You get more followers on social media, so your kind of social presence expands and you have a greater access. You know socially. All of those things and for me I really took advantage of through the NBA there's a number of programs and opportunities that players have to begin opening up their eyes to opportunities outside of basketball, whether that's finance, whether that's learning design, whether that's getting certifications, finishing a degree, getting another degree, maybe it's a master's, maybe you want to start to get into law at some point in time, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:There's a plethora of programs that MBA provides, and one that stuck out to me just through having the mentors I did at Stanford etc.
Speaker 2:Was being able to further your education and get certifications, and the one that I honed in on actually was getting my real estate license through the MBA fully paid for in California, where I knew I was going to be living kind of back to the season.
Speaker 2:I was able to get licensed as a real estate agent in the state of California while I was still playing, and so that was kind of my first action that I took where I knew, hey, it looks like you might be phasing out of playing for real now because we're actually doing this thing, but it was a great opportunity in that it allowed me to begin exploring other options, right, and so, following kind of getting my real estate license shortly after I ended up officially retiring, how did that feel? I think you get the whirlwind of emotions at that point in time, not only in that you can take advantage of these opportunities that are provided by the NBA or whomever that might come up kind of across your career journey. Whether or not you do anything with those things is another question, right, I could keep my license and keep playing and do it in the offseason or whatever it is, or I could stop and do it full time or dive into something full time. That might take me somewhere else, which real estate obviously has in comparison to what I'm doing now. But you get a number of emotions.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, actually, let me ask it a different way, then what was the hardest thing for you at that time?
Speaker 2:I think, the hardest thing for me at that time and this is now at the end of 2020, when I actually ended up retiring not as a byproduct of COVID, I don't think in any way and I do get that question from friends or, you know, young athletes coming up just people asking my story I don't think it was based on COVID in any way. I think it was more so based on, obviously, my love for the sport and where I was at and what I wanted to see the next 5, 10, 15 years of my life. And so when I kind of got to that point of, hey, I think I'm going to move on, it became really difficult because then you start to reflect, you start to see your entire athletic life flash before your eyes, right, the past 20 plus years of first playing and your first kind of MVP of the game. All of these things college and high school and whatever starts to all flash across your memory at the same time. And you go through all the pictures and it's like, once I close this chapter, you know this chapter is closed, right. And it's like, yes, you can still play for fun, but it'll never be at this level again, right.
Speaker 2:And so I think, in that there's a sense of sorrow, there's a sense of of of sorrow, there's a sense of excitement, there's an extreme sense of fear and uncertainty, right, and what that next phase will be.
Speaker 2:If it'll be what you think, if it won't, if it'll be worth it, if it won't be worth it, you don't really know, right Like you have no idea what it'll be like until you actually do it. And so, as those emotions are setting in, I think the hardest one for me to grasp with at that time was that, like I, physically I could still play right, I could physically still do the job I was probably in terms of again, I'll mention it in terms of talent, this was probably the best that I had been in my entire career, right, like I retired when I can firmly believe and say I was probably the best player that I had ever been. And so making that decision of if I didn't love it enough to stay with it and continue playing, it was time to retire, became difficult, in that this is probably the best I've been, and so that was probably the toughest piece for me to kind of grapple with at that moment.
Speaker 1:And it is a difficult thing to come to, like you say, when, physically, you may feel, or you feel to be at your prime, like this is the time where I'm going to get picked up, this is the time when I move on. But to then have to bed down and make that decision to let it go, and it sounds like doing that with only this small or this one thing you know to replace it, which is this real estate license, and say, okay, off we go, we go down that route. So I'm interested, then, what happened from a career perspective? Okay, basketball to the side, we're now raising this more traditional career path up. What were your expectations?
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I think my expectations were extremely uncertain. To an extent right, and I think you know my decision to stop playing. Yes, it could have put me in a position to, of course, get picked up and, who knows you know, accomplish who knows what right. There's also a great opportunity and a great circumstance in which that also does not happen right and I stay in the G League or I go back over to overseas and play for a number of years, whereas this decision to kind of move into the space of real estate at the time I was also fully understanding of real estate might not be that thing that I end up doing. But I do know that if I'm able to dedicate myself again more full time to a professional career, I have a great mentorship base, a great network of alumni colleagues that I had met across the MBA, individuals in my support system that I knew I could lean on to help me get to wherever it was that I wanted to get to.
Speaker 1:I love that alumni. You know you really finding that team, that team beyond the team, who are able to support you. How do you think that alumni that structure helped? What would you say was one of the key moments or decision points that it's helped you?
Speaker 2:I think and it's funny, I was actually on a. I talked to the. Our alumni are now my good friends and colleagues and I talked to them throughout the weeks. I talked to them last week on two calls because they've been pivotal, I think, in not only my athletic development but my professional development as well, in that the alumni that come from Stanford University are so high achieving in, regardless of what industry that they're in, and they're across, almost all of them Right of what industry that they're in, and they're across, almost all of them right.
Speaker 2:And a lot of leaders in the space from tech to finance, real estate, design, the sciences, medicine, law, whatever you kind of are interested in, there's alumni from Stanford University in that space, likely at a high level. And so I had a lot of trust and belief in that group of individuals who are kind of my immediate, now professional adult team that I knew were proven, that I knew were successful, had been through similar experiences that I had been through and also could help guide me and show me the ropes in whatever it was that I wanted to do, and so that gave me a large sense of trust, faith and belief, not only in what the future could be, but also in myself and what I could accomplish, seeing people who had been in my shoes before accomplishing great things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's so important. That ability and it's why we're having this call is to hear that story, to hear the stories and for others to learn from. You know, take one or two lessons from your story is so important, and you know it's great to hear that you have that alumni, that support where you can hear what others are doing, how they're achieving and moving forward, and perhaps take one or two lessons to help you. And let's think about where you are today. So today you're working, for you know you're in the sporting world again. I'm interested, then on, is that something that was important to you to get this tangible feel that you're still inside sports and growing that way?
Speaker 2:Or was it just hey, this is a job, move forward at the front of my mind to kind of stay attached to sport just more on the business end, right. And as I took that real estate you know entryway out of sports, I guess I'll call it an entryway instead of an exit from sports, an entryway out of sports For me. It allowed me to do something that wasn't tied to sports. Real estate has no, you know, connection to the sports world in any way, unless you're selling homes or working with former athletes, right. However, throughout that phase, it allowed me to realize that I actually wanted to get back into the sports world, right, I didn't have the interest, the passion, the love for that industry that I knew I would have with the sports world, right, and so I think, through leaving and retiring at the time, I did.
Speaker 2:It also gave me time to explore certain areas that I was interested in, and real estate was one fancied me as much, and so I ended up transitioning out and kind of going into the sports business world and getting back into not only traditionally the sports industry sportswear industry at Nike and Adidas but allowed me to be around like-minded individuals again who also come from sport in a lot of ways, a lot of former athletes, a strong sense of, you know, team selflessness, innovation and setting up opportunities for the youth to get into sports and new people to stay active right, or whether it's physically pushing the NBA forward and signing new athletes to be a part of these organizations from like an endorsement perspective.
Speaker 2:And so, getting back into the sports industry, for me what was great to see in a lot of ways it had a sense of feeling home again in somewhere that I knew I could excel from not only a business perspective but also from having been in you know, shoes of the people kind of on the other side of the transaction or business wall that I knew I could have a large impact within. And so that's that's what the sports industry has kind of been like for me at least, in what kind of drew me back, you know, was that passion and you know, that real kind of aspect of sport, you know, in the business world.
Speaker 1:So do you think, did absence make the heart grow fonder?
Speaker 2:It did.
Speaker 2:I would say for sure.
Speaker 2:I would say for sure and I think that's something that's unique from my story, and in a lot of athlete stories as well, is that when you, you know, decide to retire, or you know if it's, if it's expected or if it's unexpected, it's okay if you don't have the rest of your life planned out right. It's okay if you don't know what you want to do next. There's nothing wrong with saying I'm unsure of what the next chapter holds, or what I might want to do, or what I love to do, or what will make me the most money. Where I want to let you know all of these questions, all these uncertainties that are there, is completely normal, right, and it's so, I think, in today's day and age, normalized for it to appear as though everyone has it all figured out Right, and you retire from the NBA and you do broadcasting, or you start a business and you do all these things, and it's like that's what you see, but you didn't see the five, 10 years before when people were figuring it out well, that's right.
Speaker 1:And so many are then going to have this thought of okay, I want to. I want to now get back into the sport industry. How did how did you do that? How did you go about doing that?
Speaker 2:it's a great question, and and I I'm not a fan of this phrase, but I think it's true in a lot of ways is that your network is your net worth, and so, for me, when I was deciding that I wanted to leave the real estate industry and go back into sport, uh, I leaned on some of the individuals I had met through the NBA, knowing the NBA's partnership with Nike and all sports brands, as well as a number of former athletes and alumni that I had from Stanford or other universities or other sports, who now worked at these brands, who now worked at Nike, who now worked at Adidas, and reached out to them and said you know, let's connect, we love to chat. It's been a while. Whatever, I'm looking to transition my career, whatever it may be. You know, we love to chat, right Just as an initial kind of conversation starter, and I won't remiss that that also takes a lot of courage, right, and I think a lot of times former athletes are fearful of putting their pride aside and letting their ego take a backseat and having the courage to say, hey, I need help, or hey, I would like a phone call, or hey, you know, I'm looking to transition my career because I'm not happy where I'm at now, which is an extremely difficult thing to say, in that for the entirety of your athletic career in life, you had it all right.
Speaker 2:You had the trainers, you had everything figured out. I'm going to have a good race, I'm going to have a good game. I'm going to do this. And now, when you don't, you have to ask for help at times, right and so for me it's paid dividends and I love connecting with individuals as people who are mentors to me and passing it forward, because I've been in the shoes of having to make those uncomfortable phone calls, you know, early on, or having to send an email, having to shoot a random LinkedIn message to someone I wanted to get connected with that I had no idea if they would reply, if they would, you know whatever, be interested to even connect and taking that first step. And it's paid dividends because, for you know, maybe the 10, you know people that don't reply back you might get five or six that do, or even one, and that's all it takes to kind of knock the dominoes over for you to go into that next phase.
Speaker 1:That is the courage and that's the courage that is needed and I think you've hit on it there. For many athletes certainly used to being at the top of the game and the best and, in fact, having people come to them. It takes a lot of courage to flip that around and send out those messages to 10 people to get one back to have a conversation, just to have a conversation. So I think, definitely kudos for finding the courage to do that and following through. So your role today, what is it? Talk to me about that? Because for many it's like well, what does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, definitely. And so my current role now with Fanatics and kind of the Michael Rubin empire is a strategy and business operations role in that, really looking at how can we continue to expand the organization from like a business perspective in every way possible, and a lot of that work is through, maybe, international expansion through its mergers and acquisitions. There's a tech component to it as well. It's extremely complex in a lot of ways and I think the best way to describe it is it's a true sports business role. Right, it's truly looking at how can we take a business and build it up to be something bigger than it's ever been before.
Speaker 2:And I think that's for me, extremely unique in that my time with Adidas and my time with Nike were more so focused on building up sport, more through a sport lens and less through a business lens. Yes, they were kind of these strategy roles or business operations roles, but they more so did it through products or marketing or athlete acquisition and signings or whatever it may have been. And now my current role in Fanatics it's exciting to be in a position where every day could be something new in terms of the work that I'm working on, that my team and I are kind of putting together in order to really grow and develop the business in every way possible and continue that fandom for sport and pass that on to the next generation, which is really what fanatics is all about yeah, I mean that that is interesting and, like you say, fanatics is.
Speaker 1:Is that, you know, like it's a true business of sport? And I'm, I'm interested. Then for you, as a proiate athlete, pro athlete, what did you have to bring with you? What do you think supports you in excelling in your current role?
Speaker 2:It's a great question and I think it's a number of things. I think, obviously, there's a huge connection in terms of the lessons and some of the intangible things that I learned through sport right that I see in the corporate world all the time, whether it's having a great kind of process for communication, following up with people, a sense of teamwork and a sense of selflessness and not putting yourself above the team, yourself above the team. Grind, hard work, work ethic, I think is something that is a pivotal thing. I learned through sport that I bring you know to my everyday life and trying to be the best in whatever it is that I do. That I learned you know through playing basketball. There's also that sense of being along. The journey is huge for me because, especially you know, coming from a pro athlete career into the corporate world, there's no more games, right, there's no more championships, there's no more playoffs, there's no more races, there's nothing right Like that is that's no longer.
Speaker 2:And so now you're working towards maybe it's a presentation, maybe it's a big meeting, maybe it's a big event that is happening or going on, and so having that sense of staying in, staying true to the journey, trusting the journey, um, every day is not going to be a great day. Every practice was never a great practice, right, and so it's like that sense of having an idea of the ups and downs that will come. Um has been great for me to to have experience through sport, um, and be able to bring that into the business world, um, and seeing that on the day to day-day, because those things, the lessons that you learn through sport, they don't always tie one-to-one to the business world. I will also say that. And so it's great to just at least have experiences in different ways. You said in what ways? I think it's not. Maybe it's not as readily realized all the time.
Speaker 2:I would say, in that you might not understand the sense of teamwork that you learned in sport translating one-to-one to the business world. It's a very different environment. It's a very intense environment, it's a stressful environment. Everyone is looking to be the best that they can. There's a lot of egos involved. It's all of these things, right? Not everyone comes from playing sports and has seen what the true essence of teamwork in a sports sense can do for a team's success in the long run. Right, and so not everyone has that same perspective, and so trying to translate that sometimes to the corporate space or to the business world is not always easy, right, and it's not always readily noticed. And trying to have to explain that at times, or find out how you can best make the team work, maybe based on your sport experience, can be difficult at times as well.
Speaker 2:Right, and so it all provides this sense of learning. It's learning teamwork, but in a new way. It's learning communication, but maybe in a different way than you've been used to in sports. It's learning work ethic. It's learning whatever, just in a new sense. And so, for those who are transitioning, it's OK if there is discomfort in that you don't see people who also have that same perspective as you do, as now. Your teammates aren't all former athletes. Your teammates may come from business school, they may come from medicine, they may come from finance, they may come from wherever, and so seeing that head-on and being able to work with different individuals um has been a learning curve as well for me.
Speaker 1:I would say yeah, yeah, I guess, and that's it. And still, you also continue to, like you say, meet with these individuals, work with these individuals and, gradually, as you form as a team, it's still trying to get the best out of your teammates. Of course, you know, I guess it's. How, then, do you educate your corporate teammates on the essence of what a team is?
Speaker 2:That's a great question, and I think it's different for everybody. I think every individual is different, right, and I think something that you learn through playing sports for a long time is you're around a lot of different athletes. You're around a lot of different teammates who come from different backgrounds, who have different personalities, who have different preferences, things that they like, things that they don't like, things that they may respond to well, things that they don't respond to well, their strengths and weaknesses, all of these things. And so I think one thing that's huge in the corporate sense or the business world is you need to approach everyone as an individual, right.
Speaker 2:First and that's something that I love to do is just connect with people on a personal basis. Yes, we can get the work done, that'll happen, but let's get to know each other almost like teammates, right. Like let's. Let's grab coffee, let's. How was the weekend? How's your family doing, you know? Let's. Uh, let's go to an event together.
Speaker 2:If there's a sporting match that's coming to town, how can we connect as people, right? And so I think first step in being able to coach people, to coach your teammates in the corporate sense, to be a team and work together, is knowing how everyone responds to certain things knowing them on an individual basis. It's not a one size fits all type of approach to teamwork in any sense. It's not like that in sports either, and so I think that's very much the case as well in the business world or just in the adult professional space of you know you got to know who your teammates are, and it's great to know your individuals, your colleagues, and figure out how you guys can best work together to achieve whatever it is you're looking to achieve that's great, dorian.
Speaker 1:I mean listen, I think I like the way you break that down on. You know how do you gradually deliver that education to your corporate teammates, especially given your experience in that high performance environment. Um, I guess the final question really is you know, you think about looking back at yourself, or perhaps you know younger players coming through now. What would, what guidance or advice would you give based on your experience would be a great way to help set yourself up for that transition to life after sport I would say, be present.
Speaker 2:For me, I think, looking back on you know my, my development as an athlete and my transitions in the athletic space or my transition from playing into the corporate or business world being present is huge. I talked about keeping the main thing. The main thing be present in all your workouts, treat every workout as its own workout and go as hard as you can, but also be present in the sense of as you continue to develop. You know, and whatever age that you're at and you're playing career, there's a lot of opportunities that will come by and be present and take advantage of those, whether it's someone coming to watch your game who could just be someone you don't know. They could be a former or future boss, right, or they could be a future colleague or connection.
Speaker 2:For me, I was present when the opportunity to get my real estate license came about and I was able to take advantage of it, right, and there's been opportunities that I've missed because I wasn't present and I was focused on. Hey, I had a really long day. I would love to just get some dinner and lay down and rest, right. And so being present, I think, is huge, treating every day as an opportunity to grow, treating any failures or anything that may have not gone as planned as opportunity to continue to grow or learn and develop, and being present throughout the journey. Continue to grow or learn and develop, and being present throughout the journey. Enjoy it. Enjoy the good days, enjoy the bad days, because there'll be both right and it's not going to change when you stop playing sports. And so having that peace of mind, that gratitude and that self or that aspect of presence is huge.
Speaker 1:Listen, dorian. Thanks very much. That's another good insight. Listen, people listening to this are going to want to get in touch or at least follow your story. Where's the best place to find you and follow your journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great one. I'm actually going to be speaking Before I give you my handles. I'll be speaking at the Black Student Athletes Summit at USC If anyone's in the Los Angeles area, on May 25th with a number of former professional athletes African-American professional athletes, collegiate athletes passing on knowledge again passing on information, wisdom, experience to the next generation of student athletes, and so if you're ever in the LA area, please do come out or tune in. I'll share all the information and links via my socials On Instagram, at dpick11, on Instagram, dorian Pickens on LinkedIn and then also happy to connect via email with anyone at pickensdorian at gmailcom with anyone at pickensdorian at gmailcom. And, yeah, excited to continue persevering, pushing on passing the knowledge forward and love. Anytime I have a conversation like this, it's special for me and I love to make time to hopefully impact others' journeys as well.
Speaker 1:Dorian, thanks very much for joining me on the show today. Really appreciated it.
Speaker 2:Anytime, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Ryan, thanks for joining me on the show today, really appreciated it Anytime. I appreciate you, ryan. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
Speaker 1:I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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