2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
107: Andy Cramond - How I Built a New Career from Concussions to Investments
Meet Andy Cramond, a former Scottish rugby player who turned his struggles with concussions into an early opportunity to plan for life after sports. In this episode, Andy opens up about his journey, sharing how he juggled late-night study sessions to earn online degrees in accountancy and business, all while pursuing his passion for property investment. Discover the strategies he used to manage time efficiently and build a solid foundation for his future.
Andy's story isn't just about overcoming physical challenges; it's also about leveraging the connections and experiences gained during his rugby career to succeed in the property market. We dive into his exciting move to France, his initial plans for an engineering career, and how his performance on the rugby field shifted his focus to professional sports. Andy also sheds light on the differences between property markets in the UK, US, and Dubai, and his mission to introduce the realtor model to Scotland for smoother transactions, especially for professional athletes.
But the journey didn't stop there. Andy talks about the emotional and physical toll of dealing with concussions and the tough decision to retire after a final game in 2021. He shares how a house renovation project became a pivotal part of his transition, offering a new career path in property investment. Listen in as he discusses the rewarding aspects of helping clients in real estate and the importance of financial planning for athletes.
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rahhim-shillingford
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rahhim.shillingford18/
During your career. At what point did you start to realise this is going to end at some point?
Speaker 2:I, yeah, kind of throughout my career I struggled. My injury was concussion. I had too many concussions which, yeah, I was told to stop when I did, but I did sort of struggle throughout my whole career so I did well. I kind of knew I was never going to be playing to 35 like some guys do, um. So, yeah, actually when I went to van I did start some um, picked up a online degree to get an online course from the university back in Scotland, started accountancy.
Speaker 2:I realized quite quickly realized that probably wasn't for me, so I stuck at that for about a year and then called it a day and then, while I was at beer it's I did start. I did a business, an online business degree, just as exactly as you say, as part of that sort of preparation having that certificate for, for whatever's next. And then, alongside all of that, obviously my interest in property and learning as much as I could, um, sort of reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts and doing as much as I could, sort of reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts and doing as much as I could, going on some courses. So, yeah, all sort of in preparation, knowing that I wasn't going to be playing for 10 years longer. It was going to probably end in the next few years.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Today I have Andrew Crammond, a former Scottish rugby player who had an incredibly lucrative career in France before his recent retirement. He cultivated a strong interest in property and investment, using his time as a player to create strong networks and a strong knowledge base for his eventual move into the property sector. Now, older and wiser, he's here to well, I guess, share his view on the importance of financial security as an athlete, but also in that life after sport. So, Andrew, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, Ryan Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad to have you here as well, and I'll tell you what I do like is your, I guess, area now in property for me has been quite interesting. As I came out of football I did find myself at HSBC looking after their sort of mortgage proposition, globally, looking at their mortgage proposition. So I've always got a little soft spot for for those in property as well. Good stuff, good to hear, yeah, and and so look, today I'd, you know, love to sort of delve into your story. Those who are listening really are here to, I guess, understand from your perspective what it's like to transition from um being a player to to that life after sport and really sort of break down some of the steps and perhaps points of advice that that you might give to them so that they can take something forward, uh, for them for themselves after this conversation. Yeah, well, look, andy, for those who don't know who you are, just tell us.
Speaker 2:What is it that you're up to today? Yeah, so I'm Andy Crammins. I am a residential property broker here in Edinburgh, back in my hometown or home city. I basically help people in all aspects of residential property. I do have a focus on helping pro athletes invest and prepare for, as you said, financial security for life after sport, but it's sort of day-to-day all aspects of residential property. That's buying and selling, helping people sell their homes open market, off market, helping people purchase properties, aiding them as a buying agent as well. So that's buying a new family home, buying holiday homes, buying investment properties. As I say, all sort of aspects of residential property.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good and I suppose for many listening it's one of those where, before you have a place, you've no idea what goes into buying a property. It's often a lot more complex than we think it is, and that's something funny.
Speaker 2:It's what I was actually saying this morning in a meeting. Nobody would really ever consider selling a property without an agent. But nobody in the UK anyway considers buying a property with the aid of an agent. But nobody in the uk anyway considers buying a property with the aid of an agent. Um, a very sort of common practice in the states in america, in dubai, the sort of realtor model, and that's sort of something that we're trying to introduce into into scotland and, yeah, potentially uk wide you know, as you're chatting about that with your colleagues, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:From the outset it appears as if there's an extra cost. There is. Obviously we will charge a fee for the services, but I think with past clients what they've realised is we're actually saving them money when it comes to negotiating purchase prices. We have the contacts and relationships with all the other agents where we can find these good deals for our clients and how it works.
Speaker 2:In scotland, if you're buying a property on the open market, you set the seller can set, I think of a closing date and basically that's a blind bidding process.
Speaker 2:It might be friday at 12 o'clock and if there's five interested parties, you just have to put your best offer in. You don't know what the next offer is, and so I mean it's slowed down a little bit now. But especially in edinburgh a couple years ago, things were everything was going sort of 20 25 over asking price. Um, because it was so buoyant, people had a bit more money available and they were just paying lots of money more than the property was actually worth. So then when we're using us, we can we can make sure you're not overpaying for a property and then try and secure that purchase price prior to a closing date. So in the long run you might you know, if you do it yourself, you might be paying 50 grand more than needed, whereas in reality you might pay us a few grand to help you in the process. But you know we've saved you maybe 45 grand in the in the long run, as I say and probably a lot of stress as well.
Speaker 1:Well, this is it, yeah, yeah, I love the shifts or the changes in the way property is bought and sold across the world and you know you, you just describing that. It just I was like gosh, yeah, that is the case. It's nerve-wracking in some respects respects there than it is in other markets, where it almost moves through with certainty from the moment of you know, be it an auction or from the day it goes for sale, and then things move from there. So, yeah, must mean you have nerves of steel as well yourself going through that.
Speaker 2:Well, you do have to. I'll just say I secured was that Wednesday morning? Secured a purchase for a property, uh, for a client, and it was just one of those that's you do have to. There's sometimes some bluffing, some strong bluffing. You just thought this is our best and final offer. You're not getting anything more, we're not going to offer a clothing date, so take it or leave it. Yeah, um. Well, this one came off, but, yeah, I guess. Well, the experience of doing that a few times, you, you build that confidence and and being able to do it, and then being that part removed from the emotion of the buying the new family home, yeah, you can do that with a bit more confidence, whereas if you're buying it for yourself, you just got. God, I want to secure this place, so let's, uh, let's just pay x amount more just to make sure we get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um you know that, that, um, you know you use the word bluffing, but you know, I'd also say that that word often is used in a sense where it's it's actually gut instinct and it's just playing off. Um, what is essentially gut instinct, I suppose, is that condensed experience, um, all in one instant, where you're going well, actually boom, this is what we're going to do, and you know that's, you know that's what you would bring to it exactly. You know you're going well, actually boom, this is what we're going to do, and you know that's, you know that's what we would bring to it exactly.
Speaker 2:you know, you're quite right, you can get from the conversations you have with the selling agent, obviously when, once you've had enough of them, you can pick up on little nuggets of information which they've maybe showed their hand a little bit, um. So then yeah, you can, you take them on board and, as you say, that goes into our gut feeling and I was quite putting that offer in, I was quite confident it was going to get accepted. Yeah, as you say, due to this sort of relationship with the selling agent and the previous conversations we had been having, and so was property.
Speaker 1:Was that something you had intentionally gone to as a rugby player, I mean, even before becoming rugby? Was property somewhere where you'd had this interest?
Speaker 2:Not necessarily. No, I don't know. I suppose growing up dads, you know, often some people might have had an influence from parents if they'd been property investors or whatnot, be in the industry. And my dad was very much a stocks and shares pension man, no interest in property Well, yeah, not wanting to deal with leaky roofs and things. So no, I don't know how it really first came about. My sort of interest there's, I think it's quite natural, a lot of rugby players do, or sports people probably do invest in property. Um, as it is, you know, if you're earning decent money at a young age, it's good to put some away, and I guess that's probably where it kind of came from. This is the sort of thing a lot of rugby guys do do. So I checked it out and it just took my interest and by the time I finished I really found myself. I realised I was in a pretty small network of rugby fans, rugby community, but they were heavily involved in the property sector.
Speaker 1:So I kind of said to myself well, it would be a waste of that network if I wasn't to capitalize on that and make make use of it yeah, yeah, no, that, yeah, you're right, and I suppose I think of sort of my experience, but also speaking with individuals on on this show property, as in, that's one of those first elements where people start to think of securing for themselves once they start, you know, having having money come through, but I guess I'm interested then sort of taking it back. You know we talked about you as a rugby player. Let's, um, let's understand a bit more there. You know, for you, growing up, when did rugby become something that was serious for?
Speaker 2:you. Um, yeah, my journey was probably a bit different to other sort of pro players growing up in Edinburgh again with rugby, maybe predominantly sort of private schools. Most of the players from my private schools I was just at state school, never really thought I was going to be a pro just plodded along, selected for the Scotland under 20 staff that paid things, and I guess at that point I kind of thought, right, I could give this a shot, I could probably, I've probably got a chance here. So, yeah, just well, worked hard those sort of two years through the under-20s programmes and then got offered an opportunity to go out to France. I had an offer at Glasgow. Just the two clubs in Scotland, edinburgh and Glasgow. It's the two clubs in Scotland, edinburgh and Glasgow. So I kind of had a choice between going to Toulon in France or Glasgow. So I chose to take the leap and go to France.
Speaker 1:Well, look, knowing the beauty of the cities and the environments, you've got one that's harsh and beautiful up north, and one that has a little bit more sunshine. That goes with it. But what was it that influenced your decision?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess at the time Toulon were two-time European champions. They were basically the Real Madrid of rugby at that point, all the world superstars making up that team. So that was certainly a factor. Getting a chance to go and train and play with all the heroes growing up, the guys you watched on TV your whole life. Yeah, living in the south of France is obviously a factor and also the opportunity to go and obviously learn a new culture, learn a new language, was a big point. I remember sort of thinking, you know, signing a two-year contract, and I, yeah, maybe a little bit of lacking confidence in myself, maybe self-confidence, but I just thought, even if I go over here it doesn't work out, at least I've learned a new language. I'll come back with another skill set yeah.
Speaker 1:So then when you were, when you were there, how easy was it for you to settle and, and I guess, get on with rugby?
Speaker 2:pretty easy, um, so it was touched on. So the team was made up of these world superstars, so that was a lot. So the team was made up of these world superstars, so that was a lot of guys Australia, new Zealand, south Africa. A couple English guys were on the team. So, in terms of going over there and not being able to speak an awful lot of French, that was fine because there was a lot of other sort of Anglophone, all the English-speaking countries. A lot of guys were looking after me and they really were willing to look after me. I was looked after very well by some of the guys taken under the wing, given some experiences that I would never have been able to experience myself. So, yeah, it made me feel very welcome. The club themselves they do all you can to help you. They found a place to live and things organised strength lessons, all these little extra things off the field, which then allows you to just focus on the pitch once you're at the club.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So given you didn't expect to become a professional rugby player up until that age of 18, or indeed during that two year period in the Scotland setup, what were you aiming for? What were you working towards?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, initially I was, I was at university and I was in mechanical and offshore engineering plan was to sort of go off and be a offshore drilling engineer, make my millions that way. And then, yeah, let's say sort of, maybe after that first year of 20, I kind of I was, I was consistently playing, I was playing lots of minutes and I thought, god, yeah, I could actually, I could actually do something here if I get my head down. So, yeah, head down, working sort of full-time training while I was at university, not getting paid for it, like sort of the other that were associated with clubs, but that's just. There was a little group of, there was three of us. I moved back down to Edinburgh to do this and the three of us basically for six months just playing full time together. With that, yeah, I mean with hope, fingers crossed, that contract does come about at the end of the season and fortunately, well, fortunately it did.
Speaker 1:And so with Franz, did it mean you put on hold or stopped that university education? Yes, I, did.
Speaker 2:I did less university at that point. With engineering it's obviously quite a practical hands-on course. You're in the workshop and things. So that wasn't really an option to keep that going, even as a distance learning. I did so for those first three years when I was at Toulon. My sort of educational side of side of life was just learning french. I did french lessons and passed some french, you know, worked towards some french exams and got that qualification, language qualification, um. And then once I'd settled in a little bit, I did, I did pick up some studies again right?
Speaker 1:well, I'm curious about that. Um settled, so learning french, learning that language? That was something that you did whilst playing, so were you full time when you're in toulon?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, well, so it's. My initial contract was an academy contract and actually what they do in france, which is unlike what they do here, it's technically a part-time contract on paper you are training all the full hours that everybody else does, but that's sort of contractually so that you have to do some education on the side. Um, so that is something that's yeah in the contracts in france, that you have to be doing education on the side. So the local guys will be a university within some sports coaching or sports degrees and yeah, we the foreign guys would do the French language yeah, and so how was your?
Speaker 1:you know, from a rugby perspective, I'm always fascinated about that. Um, I guess sporting transition that happens from amateur part-time in the academy, yeah, towards going towards you know, the, the first team or full grade. How did you find that sporting transition?
Speaker 2:It's funny actually so obviously as I've touched on signing for the two-time European champions and having been playing well. Aberdeen Grammar was my club up in Scotland, up in Aberdeen. It's an amateur team club. Up in Scotland, up in Aberdeen it's an amateur team. I remember my first training session in the morning. I was actually quite surprised at how low the skill level was and the facilities at the time at Twigh actually, in particular the facilities at Toulon, the gym was in a tent, the physio room was in our portacabin and the changing rooms were pretty basic. That has now all been developed now. They've got a lovely facility now, but at that time all the money was spent on the players, not myself, so the other superstars and not much money was put into infrastructure. So yeah, we almost had better facilities in the amateur clubs back here than we did in Toulon initially, but then that probably helped the transition. It wasn't like you're going into an ultra high performance environment which might have been a bit daunting that may be.
Speaker 2:yeah, I've never really thought of that, but that maybe did help ease me into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and how was that your french experience? Then, once you were in france and were playing with with too long and moving, did you get this sense of well, this is it now. This is. You know, I'm going to be making my salary. You know, on I go, I'm. I'll be playing for scotland at the world cup eventually and, and this, is it was. You know to what extent had your mind changed towards I'm a pro rugby player and off I go.
Speaker 2:No, that was after sort of yeah, maybe it arrives a bit of self, lack of self-confidence. But after that first year I played a few times in the top 14 with the first team in my first season and that gave me a huge amount of confidence to say, no, certainly I deserve to be here, I belong here and I can really make something of this In terms of yeah, and then also just realising that my future probably is going to be in France. There's 30 pro clubs in France, so there's two in Scotland. So, yeah, odds on it would be a bit better if you find a club in France rather than rolling back home.
Speaker 1:Yeah and well. How was it for you? How long did you get to play and where did you get to go?
Speaker 2:I was eight years in total playing in France. As I said, three years down into one. I then in and out of the first team, played a few times in the first team, but as a young guy of the insertion of the more first team rugby, I dropped down the division and went up to a team called Van, who are in the second division. They're in Brittany in the northwest, and they were a newly promoted team into the professional leagues and they had a great time there, became a big part of the team, sort of calling the line-outs in that leadership group, which was great for me as a young guy. I grew a lot again, more confident and just improved as a player, and it was a great little town. The town was really behind it. The stadium was right in the centre of town, so we had a full house every game and all the away teams used to love coming and playing in a van because it was such a good environment and such a great pitch. That was a great place to be. And then that took me up to.
Speaker 2:So that was 2017, up to COVID 2020, and again I was ready for a bit of a change. At that point there was an opportunity to come back to Edinburgh. We were in a bit of negotiations but that never really came to anything, so I had to accept maybe well, at the time it probably was the second option to go down to Biarritz in the southwest, near the Spanish border. But looking in hindsight I'm just glad I made that decision. Biarritz is yeah, I mean that's the best part of France. If anybody wants to go to France, go to Biarritz.
Speaker 1:And the club is another historic rugby club as well, so it was cool to be part of that playing for them yeah, I mean it is, and rugby there certainly helped move you around some of the beautiful parts of the country, which is absolutely fantastic. Now, during your career, at what point did you start to realise this is going to end at some point?
Speaker 2:I, yeah, kind of throughout my career I struggled. My injury was concussion. I had too many concussions which, yeah, I was told to stop when I did, but I did sort of struggle throughout my whole career so I did well. I kind of knew I was never going to be playing to 35 like some guys do. So, yeah, actually when I went to Van I did start some.
Speaker 2:I picked up an online degree. I got an online course from the university back in Scotland, started accountancy. I quite quickly realized that probably wasn't for me, so I stuck at that for about a year and then called it a day and then, while I was at beer it's I did start. I did a business, an online business degree, just as exactly as you say, as part of that sort of preparation having that certificate for, for whatever's next. And then, alongside all of that sort of preparation having that certificate for whatever's next and then, alongside all of that, obviously, my interest in property and learning as much as I could, sort of reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts and doing as much as I could, going on some courses. So, yeah, all sort of in preparation, knowing that I wasn't going to be playing for 10 years longer. It was going to probably end in the next few years.
Speaker 1:And so how did you balance pursuing those academic qualifications while still playing professional rugby?
Speaker 2:By organisation. Obviously, rugby was the priority at the time and yeah, always was. So you've got your training comes first, and then you've got, obviously, analysis, and when you're sort of involved in the line out and that sort of leadership group, there is a lot of homework to do back home, a lot of online analysis of the other teams, and so, yeah, that would come first, copies of the boys might have been next, and then, yeah, well, I had to find something for the study, but just yeah, made it work.
Speaker 1:And what was hard. What was the biggest challenge or obstacle that you had during that balance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just time, maybe. Yeah, late nights, late nights, cramming it all in, yeah, and just juggling, as you say, and some weeks maybe you wouldn't be doing any work and you'd have to catch up. When you did find some free time, maybe in the down weeks and we didn't have a game, then you could sort of get a head down into the books a bit more. Um and just yeah, you just have to have to find a way to make it work yeah, well, it does seem like you did.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, when you think towards that end of your career, then that retirement from professional sport, how did you prepare for that? What was going on with you there at that point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's kind of an interesting period. So we come back. So my last game was October, the 9th, 2021. So if we go back to the end of the previous season, we were in the second division and we actually got promoted. To the end of the previous season, we were both beerettes, we're in the second division and we actually got promoted that end of that season. So that was probably the, you know, the peak of my career, the most the proudest moment of my career. Um, but then sort of in that pre-season I was, I was speaking to the doctors and things at the end of the season I'd had some troubles of my concussions, um, and chatting away to the doctors throughout that pre-season, the off-season, and they basically said to me that you know, if you get another one before Christmas, he said you can restart the season in the top 14, but if you do get another one before Christmas, then it's. You know, I'll call it, it's done. So obviously that's in the back of your mind starting this, getting ready for this next season and then.
Speaker 2:But then the season, yeah, the season got off to an absolute flyer. We had a home game against, we started against Bordeaux, or, I think, bordeaux. We beat Bordeaux at home. You know, we're just the newbies in the league and for the last 10 years the team that gets promoted just yo-yos, straight back down. It's a tough jump to make. And then we beat Bordeaux at home. In the first game we did go away and we lost the way, but we played all right. And then we had Racing, again, another big team. We had them at home the following the third week and we beat them as well and we're like we're going to win the league, we're going to win the league, we're going to win the league.
Speaker 2:And then, well, things got a bit more difficult after that. But then, yeah, come October, that was what, round six, I think, playing Leon going for a tackle and get head on head, and yeah, that was it. Doctors, doctors, doctor made the call. I knew I was walking off the pitch, I knew that was that would be done, um, and then it sort of officially, officially, got called by the, by the doctors. So that was a tough moment, yeah, a bit of a lonely moment in the change room by myself, um, a few tears, certainly, knowing that it was all over, um, but yeah, just I think I don't know if this is really answering your question, I think what did help, what did help me in that, like you know, once I got over that initial emotion, um, I just bought a house in just well around that time and we started a renovation project and that really gave me something while I was having some time away from the club.
Speaker 2:That gave me something that I focus outside of rugby, which probably helped me not not really think about the rugby too much because there was a lot of work to be done in the house. So then I was busy there and I just didn't have time to think about rugby. And then probably fortunate I wasn't having to go into training because I had to get the house done. So, yeah, I think that probably did help me in my transition, just having that focus outside of rugby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, was that? To what extent? Was that then the inspiration to move into property? Because you know, obviously for you the end of your career wasn't as planned and you know there was a huge amount of disappointment that you'd have had at that point. What, then, inspired you, in fact, what did you do next? So, once you're doing the property, you know you must starting to think, well, what am I going to do? Stop getting paid, I'm gonna do something, talk us through that process for you. Well, I guess?
Speaker 2:yeah, just slight step back when we bought the house, that was that was kind of I knew. When I signed my contract down in beirut, I just I knew that. Or before it was even Well, I guess. Yeah, just a slight step back. When we bought the house, that was kind of I knew. When I signed my contract down in Biarritz, I just I knew that. Or before it was even Biarritz, I decided wherever I go next, I'm buying a place and I'm doing a renovation on it as part of kind of preparing a bit of a cash pot to help with that transition.
Speaker 2:Whenever it came and give me that experience, I knew it was property I wanted to do. So I went I need to start getting my hands dirty. So we bought that house, um yeah, renovated it up, then sold it, which, which gave us, gave us, a good pot of money. We made it. Yeah, it was a good deal. We found and gave us a good little pot of money, which really helped with that transition. I didn't need to rush into into a job that I didn't want to do because I had that bit of money in the bank.
Speaker 1:There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be a retirement where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be at retirement injury, or they need to juggle dual careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career. Second wind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions. You bought the property with the intention of, I guess, upgrading it and selling it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we did live in it in the in the short term, but, um, but the idea was always we were building it, we were, we bought it, you know it was uh, somebody died in it um, we were adding, adding as much value as we could, knowing that that increased capital equity that we put into the property we could release as and when okay, um, how did you find out about doing that?
Speaker 2:that type of project uh, youtube, yeah, well, that's. You know, that's. Yeah, that's. I mean, that's where it started. You know, over the past previous years, um, I'd say it was well, maybe I don't know if that's when I first came across, it was in a youtube video, and then I would read the, read the book, listen to the podcast. Um, always interested in diy. So I kind of understood the concept now that the strategy of, okay, you can do this, add some value, and then you're going to make some money at the end. Um, and then practically, um, yeah, I was always keen on the DIY. I was quite handy myself.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah so yeah got involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it does sound like you probably would have struggled had you been playing rugby um to, to, to put in your own sweat and labour. Well, that's it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah had you been playing, it would have just been done differently. Yeah, I would have just paid someone to do more of the work. Yeah, so actually it gave you a good hands-on experience, Well exactly and I think, yeah, and that's key when it's you know I'm doing what I'm doing. Now, if I'm advising clients, I can't advise a client to do something I've not done myself. So, um, not exactly. It was part of that building my experience yeah, yeah, and so what?
Speaker 1:so what happened next?
Speaker 2:um, so, yeah, property, well, we stayed. So we did, we stayed in france. I finished there october 21. Uh, we stayed in france for another year finishing off the house, uh, just enjoy. And then that sort of comes around, then started somewhere this time this time of year and I said there was no point going back then, but now we may as well enjoy the summer somewhere here. So we did that.
Speaker 2:And then it got to about october time and we thought, right, I was getting a bit bored, I was sitting around sort of wasting time. I said, right, we need to go and get moving into this next chapter. So that was actually a quite a quick decision. I remember there was a wednesday afternoon, I think I just got very frustrated myself. I was sitting, so I just felt I was sitting on my hands not doing anything. Um, I just said, well, my wife, I just said, right, we're going, we booked, uh, we booked a ticket on the saturday for the crossing and then we packed up the car and drove, drove home, and then, uh, obviously a few back and forth, but back down to the house. But, um, no, we will move that. October 22, we've sort of moved, moved home wow, and what was the plan?
Speaker 2:um to get into properly. I used my network um initially sort of started, yeah, doing some, just hitting up some guys doing a bit of work experience with some of the surveyors and other guys in the property industry.
Speaker 1:Um, that was close with so when you say what does that mean? What do you find network, because you've just been a rugby player in France. So yeah, talk to me about the meaning of network there well, it's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, that is, I suppose, something for all pro athletes is and something I don't think we really understand and probably take. We take it for granted that people out there in the business world do want to get involved with sports. People do, um, and you've got to understand there's probably a bit of a limited period as well once you finish, but your stock's still quite high and people, people are interested in helping you, um, so, yeah, you do need to sort of jump at the opportunity but, yeah, you find people, people are willing to reach out and help you. Everybody loves sort of people in sports, so they want to, yeah, they want to hear your stories and it's a little bit different. And then the sort of corporate worlds. I know there's the programs with like black rock and some of these big corporate companies that do target pro athletes. Um, for the skill set that we have, as I say, again, take it, taking it for granted. You know your teamwork and your communication, your ability to take feedback, but it's just day-to-day things. For a sports person that's very valuable in the office space.
Speaker 2:So, again, I didn't really have a plan, but I knew, I knew, I was confident I'd work something out if, hoping it would be in property. But I knew I had the, I could have the opportunity to go into sort of an office environment as well and, if, if needed be. But then back to having this sort of the invest the property that we had built up and and sold off gave gave us that time. Yeah, basically, money gives you time. That's, that's sort of the key, the key factor, and I didn't have to jump into into something I didn't, I wasn't really 100% interested in, and it did take me. It took me about a year to sort of work out exactly what I was doing. Um, well, yeah, october 22, around the summer 23, when I sort of got started what I'm doing now um, and what was that?
Speaker 1:that? So that network for you you've described? As you know, there are people who are quite simply interested in talking to you, understanding your story. How did you find the words to be able able to articulate what it is you wanted to do?
Speaker 2:um, well, yeah, probably took some time. Well, there, october to the summer, um, it probably did take me to pick some time to to work out exactly what I was wanting to do. Lots of conversations, lots of coffees. Um, there's a few sort of ex-teammates I've been playing with, so I told them, yes, what you're doing after is like, not quite sure, but interesting property.
Speaker 2:Um, and there was this, this one name that kept coming up, john cox, who's, yeah, the owner of the company I'm working alongside now, and it was you better go. You should go speak to john, you should go speak to john. And it was on the third time that someone said that, right, I should go speak to john, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we got a coffee and um, just kind of took it from there. And he's an extra, we play as well. He's the next pro, he played a bit of time in france. Um, so, yeah, a lot in common and we just sort of my ideas of what I was wanting to do. Uh, providing this investment management service for property investors, helping them build their portfolios, is something that they they they were already doing.
Speaker 1:So we were very well aligned and, um, and just sort of took it from there yeah, that's a, that network it sounds like you know lots of coffees, lots of conversations and through those conversations and coffees, that kind of solidified and an idea or feeling into something that well was actually a, a need right, it was a business, it was a, it was something that was viable definitely, and, yeah, as part of those conversations I did explore the sort of the corporate side of things um, financial services and and I kind of thought I can't see myself sitting behind a desk nine to five in a big, in a big office, so, but then that's it.
Speaker 2:It's the importance of going out, having those conversations and then being able to rule out things that you maybe aren't interested in. Yeah, and solidifying that it is. It is probably I want to do right, this is I need to make this work. I'm going to make this work. Um, yeah, I mean advice, advice to anybody else. It would just be going out and meeting as many people as possible, taking advantage of the sort of open hands that you will be warmly received.
Speaker 1:Ask for help um, I think people people in general do want to help yeah, yes, yeah, and you know I think, oh, the way I look at it is people often do want to help when they know how to help. And, yeah, often that challenge is, whilst you can sit down with someone to say yeah, please help, and they'll say great, how can I help? And unless you can come back with a bit, say yeah, please help, and they'll say great, how can I help? And unless you can come back with a bit of well, this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do, this is the environment that I want to find myself in. People are helpless to help.
Speaker 2:They just can't do it no, and I had some of those conversations I did um, yeah, there's one guy in particular here in edinburgh in the property industry, certain sector, and that was it. He's an ex-player, so it was, you know, common. Someone had introduced us and that was it kind of got to the end. He was like, well, I don't really know how I can help you, but but then it was a case of you know, he's introduced me to some others, some others. So, yeah, but no, you're quite right, if you're at a certain point, you need to decide, right, what am I actually wanting to ask them, what I actually want to help with.
Speaker 1:So, as part of your transition, then, what has been the hardest part for you?
Speaker 2:I feel as if I've been quite fortunate and not found anything too difficult. I think you miss playing rugby and playing in front of 10,000, 20,000 people. It's a feeling you'll never get again. Winning these big games is something you'll never experience again Inside that changing room as a player. You might get into the changing room again, but it's not going to be the same feeling. Yeah, that is the biggest thing that you miss.
Speaker 2:I don't necessarily when you watch the six nations, you watch these games now and see the big collisions and not necessarily missing much of that. And then yeah, so I touched on there I've sort of felt as if I've had it relatively easier. Not, it's not not been easy, but I've managed with it quite well. But I think that came down to having these focuses outside of rugby and having sort of being excited to come back to Edinburgh.
Speaker 2:I'd been away from home for a long time, so that was almost an opportunity for me to come home and I ended up viewing although my career maybe ended maybe seven, eight years earlier than maybe could have um, I actually saw that as an opportunity to sort of kick start this next career seven or eight years earlier than than I would would be doing and, you know, with two kids, with two kids at age of 35, then started going around thinking, okay, so what am I going to do now? You'd be in a lot, I'd be in a lot more pressure to jump into something that wasn't maybe necessarily you know 100% one thing to do, whereas I was able to. So, yeah, I mean, I tried to put that positive spin on things and sort of see, see things in a different light, which I think which, well, it has helped me.
Speaker 1:Yes, without a doubt. And listen, that positive attitude certainly helps, yeah. So when you think of your transition and you know if you describe it as a success and you know, hopefully it's one that's going to be sustained when you look at your peers or those who may be in the game at the moment, what are some of the common sort of pitfalls you see for them when it comes to preparing for what comes next?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I think the main thing is just guys being it's bloody hard because the to be the best rugby player or the best sports person you can be, you need to spend as much time training and analyzing and recovering from that and focusing on that, and by doing that you earn the most amount of money you can. So you make a contract and whatnot. So, but it is those guys probably that are fully focused on the sport and aren't thinking at all about investments or education, or it's those guys that then get to the end of their career at 35 with two kids and go shit what am I going to do now?
Speaker 1:when you speak to those type players today, how do you help them? How do you help them to um? I know it's from a property perspective, but how do you help them to create the space to think beyond tomorrow's training?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean talk about my own sort of experiences and what I was able to do, and I mean I'm only one of many, many people that have transitioned. But yeah, things are probably quite common is that it's important to have a focus outside of the pitch. And the thing is that actually, again, a lot of people say as well, when you're not fully focused on rugby, it's when you're actually playing your best sport, because you're not overthinking things and you're not. So it's kind of counterintuitive, but yeah, it's trying to get that point across to them that you know, by doing this and having some time away from sport, then it's actually going to come back and benefit you in in sport and for preparing for life after when you think, then, of your rugby days, what are the skills attributes that you learned as a rugby player that are supporting you and making you successful today?
Speaker 2:um, I think the main thing is and another fact I maybe didn't touch on earlier the sort of property industry is obviously a very sort of face-to-face, personable, um, human industry.
Speaker 2:That was one of the other factors why I wanted to do it and because that's what I like doing, I like speaking to people.
Speaker 2:Throughout my career, yeah, played with guys, as I said, sort of new zealand, australia, south africa, the guys from fiji, from samoa, the pacific islands, from georgia, from ireland, from spain, portugal, france or france, obviously, um, so yeah, I kind of call myself a social chameleon. I can, and then guys, also the guys from all different sort of maybe social standings and backgrounds, and I just get along with sort of everyone, like that would be. The main thing is that, yeah, my ability to get on with everyone and sort of find, find something in common, find a point of um, find a point of having something in common with people and then just being able to get along with them. That's probably the main thing I've taken out of it, which does really help in this industry. So, if you can get close and friendly with your clients, then make them feel at ease and sort of provide them that top service on top of it, it's a good combination. Yes, it is.
Speaker 1:You're talking there about that communication on top of it. Um, it's a good combination. Yes, it is you. You know you're talking there about that communication and we touched on it earlier. But you communicate naturally within a team environment because, especially as a leader, but because you are need them, you need to work together, work cohesively as a team and communicate pretty much every step, and you know it's planned with that moment of creativity that's allowed. And when you think then of the process, that planned process that you might take your clients through today, you still need to keep that, you know, cool head, take out the emotion. Yeah, that's that you know. Follow a process or practice that you've done, um, every day, uh, you know, to get the best results yeah, no.
Speaker 2:And then, as you say, sort of back at, yeah, rugby days, you're trying to trying to align 15 different people into the same same direction, where it's probably easier nowadays when you've only got well, you've got a client, a mortgage broker and a solicitor that you need to get get all on the same path, um, but, yeah, that. So then again, that's sort of things you take for granted, but it is that, yeah, way of communicating a message and making sure that everybody understands it and, as I say with the background, making sure everybody understands that in french and english and fujian, and um, yes, there's had to be some challenges in the past, but, yeah, fortunately it's a bit simpler now in English and with less heads to direct.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, you spoke about one of the proudest moments as a player winning promotion into the top division in France. What do you find most rewarding about your career today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just seeing that, you know, years and years of hard work did come into fruition.
Speaker 2:I actually, kind of having sort of said that I knew I was never going to be playing until 20 or 35, 34, 35, would have been a good career.
Speaker 2:But I kind of accepted to myself maybe about 25, that I think. Once, although it was the doctor who made the call in the end I was kind of happy to take that decision. I'd kind of told myself I knew I needed to stop in the next few years and it was either once I became a Scotland's nationalist or I got back into the top 14. So that was kind of my two goals and then once I hit one of them I would have kind of been happy. So then, yeah, then the few years of hard work after that sort of decision being made, so to make sure I put myself in the best position to achieve that one of those goals. Yeah, unfortunately didn't quite get the Scotland cap. That would have been obviously that would have been a better achievement. But um, yeah, I was yeah proud to then get back to top 14, play at the top level and sort of go out on a bit of a high.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah. Well, you know, like you say, playing for Scotland or getting an international cap, I guess it would have been a different kind of achievement, a different success, you know, to leading the team to win something that changes a whole town or gets a whole town behind as well. You know, looking, looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of planning for your career transition?
Speaker 2:well, but genuinely, and this and again, I mean, yeah, I've got my property sort of focused, but I would always advise clients you have a diversified, diversified portfolio. Don't chuck everything into property, don't chuck everything into stock and shares, have it across everything diverse portfolio. But I would have started investing earlier. I remember that when I did first go to Toulon as a 19-20 year old, the older guys there just put 100 euros away. 100 euros away, you know, just 100 euros a month. It's like, yeah, shut up, old man, I'm gonna write this weekend, um, but no, it's so true. And when you see this sort of the power of compounding interest and it does, it literally does just take 100 pounds a month, 50 pounds a month, whatever you can, whatever you can afford, um, so, yeah, I would have just got started with that at the beginning yeah, yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I suppose it leads on to the one of my final questions. But based on the lessons you've learned along the way, what, what would you share with the listeners?
Speaker 2:good. Well, just prepare yourself. Um. I know just from my personal experience. It experience it was that investment in that property at the right time which really helped me and gave me that freedom of time for that transition process. And that's sort of my main point of advice is just try and create some financial security in whichever way you do, which then makes the decisions easier. You're not, you're not going to force yourself into the decision you don't want to make because you have to. If having those investments um does, yeah, it just gives you that time when they say money, equal sort of time and it gives you that time to really make an educated decision and work out what you really want to do. Yeah, yeah, get get investing. And, as I say not, it's not just property, just yeah, get a, get a deal that 50 to 100 euros.
Speaker 1:Uh, as the old men were telling you well, no, I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:I mean, what you've spoken about there is and you know the way you phrased it is that bit of money can give you time. It can give you time to get some clarity in. You know what you can do, what you want to do, and you know for you it was, you know, building that network and you know connecting with people in that network helps you to realize those ideas in your head of, well, I'd love to just do this. You started to realize how, actually, that's a viable business, that's a, that is a role that you can have out there. Yeah, nine percent, yeah, so so, look, I'm, you know I've loved the conversation. I'm sure the listeners, uh, would also like to.
Speaker 2:You know, perhaps take some, take on board some of that advice and what's a good way to get in touch with you or follow your story yeah, um, I'm across all the socials but yeah, linkedin probably mainly just andy crammond um or instagram, yeah, so the business instagram would be crammond property broker, um. And yeah, certainly happy to chat with anyone. I certainly when I transitioned I had sort of x players and things always reach out and offering to, yeah, to have a chat if, if needed. So I'd be more than happy to help anybody that's or have a chat with anybody that's going through a transition or considering maybe at the end of the career and considering maybe stopping and trying something new. Be happy to help out in any way I can wonderful, andy.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sharing your story today.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate your time thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:It was good fun thank you for listening to the second win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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