2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
110: How Will Hooley Created a Plan to Enjoy Rugby and Transition into Media
This week on the 2ND Wind Academy podcast we welcome Will Hooley, who shares his journey from the rugby field to becoming a technical director for Major League Rugby in the United States. Will opens up about his reluctance to follow conventional career paths and how his passion for storytelling led him to this new and exciting profession. Listen in to gain insight on the importance of finding joy in new endeavors and how blending on-field performance with off-field interests laid the groundwork for his post-rugby life.
Transitioning from an elite athlete to a career in journalism and broadcasting is no small feat, and Will’s story is a testament to resilience and adaptability. He reflects on his career highs and lows, the significance of having a backup plan, and the relentless pursuit of excellence that defines an athlete's life. From overcoming career-threatening injuries to seizing opportunities in media, Will shares invaluable lessons for anyone facing a career change. Tune in to hear about the power of networking, building confidence in the corporate world, and strategically preparing for life after sports.
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If someone said to me I want you Will to get involved with accounting whilst you were playing rugby, I would have hated it and I would never have gone back to my laptop.
Speaker 1:I never would have sat in a coffee shop and plugged away trying to do that.
Speaker 1:No, but I had something which again goes back to the storytelling, goes back to the articles, goes back to some of the podcasts I was involved in and just other things, and I saw, okay, I think I could understand going on a career in this.
Speaker 1:As I say previously in this episode, both in front of the camera but also behind the camera, I wasn't naive and vain enough to think, oh, I'm going to be the next best presenter and like no, I wanted to really broaden myself as like a whole package. So I think you've got to find enjoyment. If you don't, then that time is just going to be horrible. And then also the maturity to understand that if I was wanting to do really well on the field, to have those times of taking myself away from that and focusing on something else was actually going to have a benefit to how I focused on my rugby and then, equally, didn't get too carried away with it. So it was almost like it helped me on the field, as much as obviously I knew it was going to be helping me off it.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 3:Will welcome to the show. Great to have you on here today.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Ryan, Really looking forward to chatting to you. We've kind of gone back and forth trying to get a hold of each other. Busy lives, but yeah great to have a chat.
Speaker 3:That's it, much anticipated, much-waited conversation. But look, it is good to try and just get your story, your perspective on, well, what is to try and just get your story, your perspective on what is career transition? And I think what's really fascinating about yourself is, I guess, the timing of our conversation, really soon after retirement in many respects and into what is essentially that second window of your career. So thanks for finding the time, especially mid-season.
Speaker 1:No, it's a pleasure. And yeah, you're right, it's pretty much more or less to the day, nearly a year from when I played my last rugby game, which is crazy how quickly that's gone. But equally, I also know how short a time that is in relation to building a new career and uh, yeah, it's been. It's been great, it's been challenging, but I'm sure we'll get into that in this conversation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Well, for those who don't know you, who aren't following your story just yet, tell us who you are and what you're up to today.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, my name is Will Hooley. There you go Start off, just so everyone does know who I am. And yeah, look, I used to play professional rugby. That still gives me a little, a little bit like wow, I have to say, former rugby player now, don't I but?
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, I'm a former rugby player, but I now work, uh, for major league rugby here in the united states. So I know you're based in sydney, I'm based here in san diego, california, so there's, um, not only is there a lot of travel time between us, I think that's pretty much a whole day apart when it comes to time difference, which is pretty cool. But yeah, so I'm involved in the broadcasting as technical director here at Major League Rugby, also involved in some commercial stuff, some marketing stuff. I'm kind of what I like to call an ambassador and a consultant for rugby in Major League Rugby. I kind of don't even have something very specific other than media is very much my focus, and it was really my focus as well, even when I was playing of getting this transition lined up and having something like this be an opportunity there ready for me to jump into. So, yeah, I would officially say to myself that I'm kind of a media broadcaster here for Major League Rugby and rugby here in America.
Speaker 3:Well, that's pretty cool. It's pretty cool on a couple of aspects. One, as a player, getting into broadcasting is something I think we all naturally say oh yeah, maybe I'll go up there and do that for a moment, probably as a co-commentator, if anything. I have to say I thought it'd been awesome as a caller doing that. Was that the intention for you thinking I'll give them the dark side of that tackle?
Speaker 1:It's a good question because, in all honesty, ryan, like no, I wanted to get involved in the media and the thing which really sort of interested me is presenting In terms of in front of the camera is presenting. I always think we're in sports presenting. There's some brilliant sports presenters out there, right, and and I look at, for example, someone like gary lineker with the bbc one of the benefits of being a good sports presenter is if, if you've actually been in it as well, if you've actually been in the trenches, it doesn't really matter what the sport, but you therefore know what the athletes are going through, as much as also the pundits as well, and you can sort of get a better range of conversation. That's no disrespect to anyone who's presented who hasn't been a professional athlete, but that was certainly in front of the camera where I thought that maybe I could.
Speaker 1:I could be beneficial and be valuable then, obviously for my sport, particularly here in the us and having us roots, um, yeah, being a sort of as I call it, a colour commentator, I have my analysis that I'm there every week talking majorly rugby, which is fun, but I think that's in my mind. I know that through maybe longevity I'm not sure whether that's got lots of legs, but I'm also very interested behind the camera and some of the works within sports media, what I would call the office side. Call, uh, the office side, maybe even the boring side, but actually it is very interesting to me as well and the other bit.
Speaker 3:I was going to say what? What I find fascinating is you're in in the US market. So for many I'm going to say typical rugby aficionados. And here I'm on the other side of the world and I'm thinking, whenever someone thinks about rugby in the US, it probably is with a question mark at the end and a huh is it? Is it happening? So what is rugby in the US then? What's going on?
Speaker 1:It's massively growing and I'm probably fortunate that I got myself into position to come over here as a player but also to get in the position I'm now in within the media, because it's only going to go strength to strength, get better and better. It's a game which, when Americans have found it and seen it, they're in love with it. Now we're in a very competitive market. I just need to mention NFL, baseball, mlb, nba, nhl, you name it. Now those are markets which are ginormous. They're almost towards Premier League football type vibe, or they are to, not even to a degree, they just they are.
Speaker 1:Rugby is never going to compare itself with that sport, but it's so fast growing and particularly with a rugby world cup coming to the united states in 2031 for the men, in 2033 for the women, it's almost like we have a goal, we have a pot of gold at the end that we're all going towards and to really grow this, this sport, across the states, both professionally, grassroots, and so it's very exciting to be part of. And I think there's also this understanding with the sports market here in america. It's there's no limits. Traditions go out the window. Rugby's had its traditions, but at the same time they haven't always worked in the in the rugby world. Meanwhile you've got america, the capital, the, the host, the nucleus of entertainment, whatever you want to call it. We can really go and take this sport to a new stratosphere. So I I'm obviously a salesman for major league rugby and rugby here in america, but I do mean it's got a lot going for it, it's got a great future, but there's a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 3:No, I like that. That's a good. That's probably a real good example or explanation of where rugby is currently at in the US and also perhaps where it can go when you think about that growth Something. Listen, I'm sure we'll come back on as that is. You know where you are today, I'm curious. Then you mentioned you know where you are today, I'm curious. Then you mentioned you know the american roots, but of course both of us been brits, but now living somewhere generally much hotter and a much nicer climate. So for you growing up, being in the uk, um, what was, where was that and what was sport for you?
Speaker 1:well, I was a cam Cambridge boy originally, so just outside, I say to Americans, just outside London, but anyone from the UK will very much know, probably, where Cambridge is and, yeah, born and raised there. And sport to me, I mean, I was just involved in all sport, if I'm going to be honest, from a young age. I started rugby at the age of five, but I was playing cricket, I was playing field hockey, I was playing football sorry, I was nearly going to say soccer but I was playing cricket, I was playing field hockey, I was playing football Sorry, I was nearly going to say soccer, but I can't stand that.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you'll know as much as anyone, ryan, and yeah, I was just a sport fanatic as well. I just, you know, it's always interesting when someone say, oh, like, do you watch Wimbledon or do you watch the Euros? And it's like, well, yes, of course I do, I love all sport and and and that really that was good for me though, as development is then obviously, when I became an athlete, is is having all those sports under my belt. You know, for example, tennis was great for my hand-eye coordination. You know, playing football was great for my footwork.
Speaker 1:Playing, doing coordination, playing football was great for my footwork. Doing track and field was good for my fitness. It was almost like I then obviously got myself more into rugby. But sport for me and where I was growing up, I was privileged in that I went to great schools, great clubs, as well as involved in all those sport clubs in Cambridge, from Cambridge Rugby Club to St Giles Cricket Club, and I had an older brother as well, so I always wanted to try and be like him. He was playing loads of sport. So it's always interesting when you have an older sibling like, you kind of want to follow them, and and that was very much the case for me as a youngster growing up in the UK.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's brilliant, and so for you, all of those different sports coming together sounds like it was part of that the family network or family structure as well. At what point did you have to start to pick one sport over another? And and was rugby the sport you picked?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it was probably about the age of, I would say, around 15 16. So I was, I played a lot of cricket in the summer, so really I was sort of getting towards sort of more rugby focus in the winter, autumn and winter, and then cricket focused in the summer and I quickly realized sort of through I was. I was already with Northampton Saints Academy come the age of about 12, 13 years old and the Saints were kind of saying to me look, you know, we know we just want to in the summer, keep developing you on a physical level and camps here and training days there. They never pushed it as such and I don't think my parents would have pushed me just to one direction. They always wanted me to be well-rounded both on the sports field and off it.
Speaker 1:But I would probably say around the age of around 16, the GCSE sort of age, and then rugby was definitely my passion. It was something I was doing well in my mates as well that was. You know, I always look back again. I talked about siblings being a sort of an inspiration for how you sort of foresee what you want to do. But my mates at school we were going to the same rugby club.
Speaker 3:We were, you know, kind of it's kind of what we wanted to do together and when they were also on that pathway as well, a couple of them towards trying to become, get into the professional ranks, so long-winded way of saying, about 16, I reckon yeah, now and again it's one of the bits I often ask because I find for that athletic sort of transition, it's usually around that age 14 to 16 where suddenly we start to well, be good and be identified as someone who's got a talent that could take them to that next level, and it often is a challenging thing to have to say, oh well, I have to give up one sport over another sport.
Speaker 1:I don't, I'm not sure if I really want to do that yet no, and actually it's something which I tell parents when they ask me hey, my little boy, jimmy, he's destined to be a professional rugby player.
Speaker 1:And they and jimmy's only 10 years old and I'm like, just you know, like I said before, go and play all your sports, go and get that almost education that each sport can give you in different ways, from the physical and then also the mental side, and then you'll naturally get to a point where you do get a bit older, puberty hits, um, you know, you're moving towards that older age, you're really trying to understand what you want to do for a career, and particularly with sport, um, and it becomes a little bit more natural. I think forcing it too early is actually it's bad and I really tell parents not to do that, because then you get burnout, then you get sort of those. The enjoyment goes and that was, I think, always key. That I felt as well. I played all those sports and I still do. By the way, I still love playing golf. If I can get a cricket game in socially, then I will, and and it's, you know, it's just obviously got a bit more serious come the age of 16.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, quite. And as that seriousness of sport started to kick in, what was the impact on your academic endeavors?
Speaker 1:Well, look, I have not. I had I was going to say I had. I have amazing parents and massively supportive of me and that they both were, you know, went through education and and I think they looked at me as well and said, well, well, this is fantastic that you're doing all this sport and you're doing well, but at the same time, sport could potentially finish tomorrow, whether it be injury. I think they were always skeptical with the kind of you know well what does a sports career look like and so didn't push. But particularly my mom was very much like you're coming home to do your homework, you're doing your homework.
Speaker 1:I am dyslexic, so I had to work hard as well If I was going to do, if I was going to be success or have success, I should say, in any of my academics I knew I kind of had to work hard and I did. And, like I say, I was very, I was privileged in that I went to a really good school, particularly the Lee School in Cambridge. They were fantastic for me in terms of my sport coupled with my academics. It was very understanding. But really my parents made sure that I did get good grades, that I did have a backup plan and I'll be honest, ryan it paid dividends throughout my career and where I am today, there's no doubt about it. The work that I put in come. Those ages of around 15 to 18 set me up then to then have success both on but also off the field. So then, when I did transition, I had that in the bank.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, I think so. So, and it is one of the interesting bits about your story is you can intentional or not, and that's something I probably want to delve in a little bit more was that set up for success? Now, your career, from a rugby perspective, it does seem that you, you know, you say it started to get serious at 16, but it seems like it accelerated quite rapidly towards, um, well, towards representation, and some of the big tournaments talk I mean, talk us through that process. What, what was going on?
Speaker 1:yeah, I, I mean I think probably, when I look back on my career now, I was probably at my pinnacle probably at an age of, yeah, the sort of from about 19 to 23, which is probably not where you want to be hitting your peak as an athlete. You want to be hitting it a bit later, but no look.
Speaker 1:I think I played fly half. Number 10 was my position and I think, being in that position, you have got to try and be clever I cringe when I say that, but you have got to have a brain on you to play that position. You're the thinker, you're the playmaker, and I think that was my sort of point of difference as a youngster that I was. I was fit, I was, you know, I had an engine on me, I worked hard and could understand the game pretty well. Probably the thing which let me down in my career, if I look overall not that I'm not proud of what I did achieve, but how I could have maybe achieved more was maybe just self-confidence. I'm sure we might talk about that in a minute. Um, and that actually going out there and backing myself more than maybe I did but yeah, I was, you know, with Northampton Saints had great success. There was part of the, the squad that went on and won the premiership in 2014 and the European Challenge Cup as well, and then also part of England age groups, all the way from under 16 all the way to under 20s, and again part of that squad that won the under 20s championship in, I believe, 2013. So yeah, hitting success at that age was brilliant, but I was also.
Speaker 1:I never got ahead of myself because I was in such a Northampton Saints that during that time anyone who's a rugby fan would know we were so successful. Getting any sort of game time in the first 15 was. You know, I spent numerous games on the bench where I didn't even get on because I had quality players in front of me. You know literally internationals. But I learned a lot. And and then you know I again without getting too detailed but I moved from Northampton to Exeter Chiefs who were like a good team in the premiership, who were focused on wanting to use youngsters. I knew a bunch of guys there at Exeter and I thought this might be my not big money move. It wasn't, but it was more my for me to move clubs. I might go even higher and further and more prestigious and so, yeah, that was all at a relatively early age and, looking back at it, probably where I was playing my best rugby.
Speaker 3:What did you want to achieve then? What did you think success would have been for you at that moment?
Speaker 1:I think honestly playing for England, which is strange, right, because I then ended up playing for the USA again. Save that for when we do talk about. But like, yeah, I mean I was. I was born and raised in England. I've no problem in saying this. You know, time changes and your perception of success changes as well. I think I realized particularly at around that sort of 22, 23 year old age I had some of my teammates who are playing for England.
Speaker 1:The position I was in was going to be very hard to play for England and then also, injury started to come in A couple of concussions at the wrong time, particularly one in 2016 that took me out for a period of time. It was almost like I think I've missed the boat here to really get a chance, and I don't look at all back now and think what, if or whatever. I went on a different path, a path which gave me so much, so much success in many ways.
Speaker 3:But yeah, success was trying to play for England, definitely around that age group what's wonderful, and you know, I know the focus is on that transition and moving on, but you did play at that, at that international level, all through those ranks, like you say, 16, moving up, winning world championships, winning at a national level championships, and you know, and across Europe as well, which is absolutely amazing, all, all at that young age. And you talk about what you, you know, what you dreamed of. I always find it amazing that, as athletes, when we're in the moment, there's always something that something next, something that we're continuing to, to strive for. Um, never quite satisfied as you think at that time. How satisfied do you think you were at the moment on? Oh yeah, this is amazing. Yeah, I'm on the bench, but look at the squad, I'm in.
Speaker 1:I, to be honest, not, and it's, and it's honestly, you know, it's only when you retire, I genuinely believe, when you actually look back and you probably smile yourself like you look back and you think, geez I, I wish I enjoyed my wins a bit more. I wish I enjoyed my wins a bit more. I wish I enjoyed my small success a bit more. I wish my premiership debut I had not been as nervous as maybe I had been. But those I wish they're not regrets, they're very normal, human, natural feelings, right, and it's also propelled me to. I always believed and I say this to athletes having some fear inside of you is actually sometimes the the thing that will get the best out of you that fear inside.
Speaker 3:You think it helps get the best.
Speaker 1:I think, absolutely, I think it does. I think the human being, and not to sort of go psychological on everyone, but we are designed to fight or flight. And and then what I mean by that is, you know, again, not trying to give you a history lesson, but our ancestors, if they were met by horrible, grisly whatever in the wild. You either are running away from that situation or you're fighting for your life in that situation. I think athletes are exactly like that.
Speaker 1:You get nerves and you can either build them in one way or the other, and the fear of failure is actually the drive that makes you work harder. And I'm not saying it's always healthy, trust me, I don't think it was healthy at times, but it was the thing that really got me to a point being like I am going to give my best here. I am not going to let you know the old other throwing cliches out, throw another one in terms of, you know, fail to prepare, prepare to fail. You know, I am going to make sure I am as prepared as possible and as fit as possible and as dialed in against my opposition. Um, so that's probably what I mean, like fear drives your focus, and I think focus then drives ultimately your, your ability to gain success yeah, the ability to harness that fear and make a a positive force, positive energy, is so key.
Speaker 3:Yeah 100, 100 so it makes me think then, during that time, when you've got that focus on that athletic performance, you know you're not yet satisfied with what you're achieving to what extent were you preparing for life after sport?
Speaker 1:I think for me that came through uh, misfortune in some ways, and then, equally, what I said to you before about I had a really nice good upbringing, that was, education was very much put into my focus. The misfortune was injury. I do remember that back in 2016, I suffered a bad concussion that took me out for months and it was at that point where I felt a little bit low. I was running out of my contract with Exeter Chiefs knowing that I probably wasn't going to get signed. On Reality of the sport, if you're not playing, you're not available, and if you're not available, chances are you're not going to get picked. So I realized when I was getting better from that concussion there was more to life than just the sport and my happiness. I didn't want to be sort of dictated by how well I was playing. This was kind of only getting this kind of in me by around the sort of mid-20s mark, and then it was equally well.
Speaker 1:Someone at the club at Exeter Chiefs who was head of communications and media when I was getting better said hey, look, you know. Well, I know you're a bit of a brain on you, I know you'd done some courses online or whatever. Would you be interested in writing for a match day magazine or one of the club legends, blah, blah, blah. And I was like like you know what? Yeah, like a bit of exposure, something just to have a drive a goal towards. Anyway, long story short, that went really well. And having that go really well then led me to being asked do you want to go do a part-time degree in sports writing, journalism and broadcasting, to then opportunities with the guardian, um, and and then so on and so forth. So my idea of actually getting in that transition phase started, as I say, at a time when I was probably a bit down and had to think okay, well, rugby isn't everything, let's make sure I'm in a good position to harness what's off the field as well as on it.
Speaker 3:That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that, because, especially the fact it starts when you're down concussed, you were unsure of what was going to come next. I mean, we mentioned fear earlier. I guess, in an odd way, what on earth made you think you'd be any good at writing that article? I'd always enjoyed media.
Speaker 1:You know, I kept an eye on rugby magazines. Um, as I say, I was dyslexic, so I wasn't much of a reader, but I enjoyed storytelling. There was something about storytelling. That was I. I like conversation, I like this. You know, we're just sharing stories.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, and and anyone who would meet me would would know that um, that was probably the underlying thing as to how good I was at writing. I was like, well, you know, let me go after a task. I've read enough stuff. I've seen enough people uh to to know like what maybe it should sound like I had a vision and I just went away from there. I look back at that article now and I look at it and go well, that was pretty cool, but I do a way better job now. But that's not the point is, you know, I started off. It was something that I started on and and just grew with it.
Speaker 1:There was also something about writing in the media whereby it felt a little bit like playing sport, and I'll explain why in that you prepared for something, you then put your skills to the test and then I know this sounds pathetic, I am probably I'm a bit of a people pleaser. You then get admiration or you get feedback, you might get criticism and you might even get positivity and being like, oh, it was really good. Or you know, be well, that Will Hooley is rights for the guardian or whatever it might be, and maybe that also. I quite like that feeling that I had a purpose and it, but it wasn't just on the field, it was also off it as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's um again. Yeah, interesting taking that chance in in some respects, and you built a belief system that helped you to write that one, and you know well, then it went from strength to strength. I'm interested, though, how you know, given the opportunity to take on the part-time degree in studies, how did you manage that time, whilst coming back and thinking, well, hey, I've got to get back in, find a new contract. How did you manage that period?
Speaker 1:Honestly, it sometimes kept my mind off of that kind of I need a new contract. It was a time as well that I moved clubs. I had to seek getting more game time. That's why I went to the championship for Bedford Blues, which, by the way quick note on that was one of the best decisions I ever made, because that was also in the period as well that I had been the year before spoken by the USA because the USA my dad sat next to someone in the stands that ultimately somehow was on the USA rugby board and my dad was the one that's my grandmother, so my dad's mom was American and it was just by chance. And then he asked for my agent's number and anyway, the rest is history. So a lot of movement happened in that time.
Speaker 1:So actually having something else to focus on really helped me, benefit me in terms of not getting carried away with. As I say, where am I going to end up playing next year? Or rehab, just getting so boring that ultimately, you know, my mind was just taken over from rugby. I was very determined for that not to happen and I enjoyed. That's the biggest thing, and I would always say this to I say to athletes all the time like you've got to find something that you enjoy. It may not be the exact thing, it may not be the exact job that you want to look at in the future, but find something and storytelling that you enjoy and it's amazing what you can go from there and then, when you do do the things outside of your sport, it just feels a lot better so true, it is so true.
Speaker 3:It begins with wanting to enjoy your day, um, having a reason to get up, and you don't need to think kind of what you're saying. You don't need to go too deep into thinking that as to, well, what is it that motivates me once we get up? It's like, well, it's finding something you just enjoy doing. Yeah, just start there and let the rest follow. You don't need to uh, plan everything out, um, but you got to take me back because there's an element here on I. I always love a little bit of what's the. The full word is happenstance, but it just means but look, so your dad is watching you play in the stands and he's happened to chat to some other person about. Oh yeah, that's my son.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, I mean that and that that I was playing for Exeter at the time and that's when I was doing. Well, this is before the injury. And yeah, he was chatting away. He was also there with my girlfriend now wife and just sat next to this American couple and obviously his American accent my dad's a bit like me, would happily have a conversation with anyone and in the end, at the end of the game, the guy just turns around to my dad and said well, you know what? Why are you here? You know supporting the games. Oh well, that's my son.
Speaker 1:I played, I came off the bench, did well against Worcester and he was just like this is weird. I'm on the board of directors for USA Rugby. I've just put two and two together. If you're telling me that your mother, as in my grandmother, is born and was raised in Los Angeles, then your son's eligible for play for the USA. And my dad was hilarious because my dad had said yes, I know that, but, funny enough, I've never really met anyone that I could probably share that with. My dad was never a pushy parent. He was not my agent at all, no, but the guy in the end just said I want to speak to your son equally than your son's agent, and my dad was funny when he spoke to me because obviously this was big for him and his side of the family and very important. Yeah, and I I I obviously took a bit of time to make the decision, but ultimately he was there with the birth certificate so you name it ready to go to center world rugby to show that I was eligible and and I just decided at the time when I had had my injury, I was coming out almost starting my career again.
Speaker 1:I was then also pushing my pursuits and stuff outside of rugby. I was like you know what it feels like someone's giving me a second chance here and I said yes to United States. That was in 2017. I didn't make my full debut until the beginning of 2018. And it's amazing how that one afternoon in Worcester changed my career and to be honest, Ryan, I don't want to be over emotional about it but changed my life. And here I am in Southern California. If it wasn't for that afternoon, I don't know whether I would have been, and it's it's genuinely the truth that's great.
Speaker 3:yeah, it is. It is that afternoon parents should watch their kids play sport. Everybody Just putting that back out there. No, that's sorry. I'm saying that as part of another debate, as I grew up, certainly as a youngster parents, I wasn't watched as a kid, so there was a lot of playing that was just done, and so there's this debate is parents watching sport? Does that set kids up for success on the field or not? And random debate. But there you go, you've just fueled that fire as well.
Speaker 1:so well, I mean I, we definitely don't have to get into that, but but yeah, I think there may be a certain parents where this is great for them to be there to be supportive.
Speaker 3:There's probably others who are um a bit more negative, but yes, that's right, they should stay quiet maybe and just watch that. Yes, what happened um now? But listen, uh, coming back in on on um sort of from you and your story, it sounds like this is quite a turning point. So, coming back from so, so I'll say in that way, dropping down the division but increasing your playing time, seem to significantly improve one sort of you getting out on the market again, but also it sounds like an enjoyment of the game again and thinking, hey, this is actually I enjoy playing rugby yeah, no, you're spot on.
Speaker 1:And um, you know it was a pride. I'd swallow my pride a little bit because I was dropping down the division. I was 26 I think at the time and ultimately I was like I shouldn't be. I shouldn't be in this position. I felt a bit like the victim. And I look back on it now and I laugh. It's just like, oh, come on, will get over yourself. Feel like that back then. But you are you.
Speaker 1:I was young, I was, you know, I, I thought I was on this. You know goal and path to becoming brilliant and you know I'm delighted that I played in the premiership and I had some success, but I didn't have loads of it. I'm not going to pretend that I had loads of it, unlike some of my mates, but having that drop down was so good for me as a person, as a couple. We lived properly away with each other in Bedford. My wife was from Exeter and I was from Cambridge, so I had done the moving but she hadn't, so it was a bit of a test. And we I look back now and and you know, some of my best friends to this day groomsmen at my wedding were from that Bedford Blues team, and the same for my wife, for her and her bridesmaids. You know it's just amazing how actually that experience was just brilliant and beautiful, and for the rugby as well. I was lucky I was in a town and a club that would just die hard rugby.
Speaker 1:I loved it, I loved it and that love got me back playing well again, got me then selected ultimately for the USA and eventually, later on, I made the jump back up to then sign for Saracens. You know I look at that period in my life, in my career as well, obviously, where I was like that was good and for something which could have been pretty horrible because of making that jump down, it gave me a lot of return yeah, it did.
Speaker 3:It did renewal in, in many respects, love of the game, but then also, on that, the whole lifestyle that sits around it. Now coming, coming into that period, you, you know you'd started the degree, you started writing these articles. Things had changed. So what steps did you continue to take to set you up for, I guess, for what you're doing today?
Speaker 1:that degree massively, and then also the experiences as well. So as part of the degree I also had to genuinely go and get work experience. Now they were very aware. So in this degree I should say University of Staffordshire they were. They were working with sportsmen and women on this degree. So I was surrounded by footballers. I was surrounded by even a couple of cricketers. They very much understood the whole idea that your time was limited. That was the whole point of the part-time element. It would take me a bit longer but I'd eventually get the degree done.
Speaker 1:The thing for me was the experience with a Bedford local news agent, the Bedford Independent, which shout out if you ever listened to this, paul Hutchinson because he gave me a chance to come on and be a sports reporter and a sports editor with that whilst I was playing, which was just such cool experience. I was writing articles, I was going out in the community doing videos, just getting all this opportunity, small tiny exposure, but I can say to say actually they're doing really well as a local agency. But it was just brilliant for me. And then from that as well, I was playing with America. So I had a bit more also profile around the rugby scene.
Speaker 1:People wanted to be interested, be like, oh, how is that American market going, how is the national team going? And then I was going to the 2019 Rugby World Cup and that was one of my biggest achievements, obviously as a player. But then, equally, that's also when the Guardian head rugby writer, rob Kitson, we met at a dinner and he just said, would you be interested in doing a sports blog? And I was like, well, so long as it doesn't get in the way too much with my performance and training, absolutely, and that probably really kick-started on my writing front. But then, equally, in terms of more media front, you know my exposure with that. So again, I was taking these opportunities, making sure that I I didn't. I worked. Rugby was my number one priority, but I was always like you know as an athlete you have.
Speaker 1:You have free time and I was making sure that I was there with my mates. I was having coffees, I was going to Nando's, I was having fun, but at the same time I still set aside some time to make sure I was looking after myself for post rugby.
Speaker 3:That's really interesting, the fact you were quite intentional with it. So you know, through the course you actually did the coursework. You did the homework. You went out and did that. I know well for many students that's challenging. You went out and did that. I know well for many students that's challenging. But for many athletes who perhaps don't accept that they have as much time to prepare for that life after sport. You know I'm too busy and recovering I'm doing this, but it sounds like you managed to find that balance. Well, take, take advantage of it I.
Speaker 1:I think I think you've got again. It comes back to the enjoyment element. If someone said to me and forgive me, ryan, because I know you've got to, again, it comes back to the enjoyment element. If someone said to me and forgive me, ryan, because I know you've been involved in banking, but if someone said to me I want you Will to get involved with accounting and whilst you were playing rugby, I would have hated it and I would never have gone back to my laptop. I never would have sat in a coffee shop and plugged away trying to do that.
Speaker 1:No, but I had something which again goes back to the storytelling, goes back to the articles, goes back to some of the podcasts I was involved in and and just other things, and I saw a okay, I think I could understand it going on a career in this.
Speaker 1:As I say previously, in this episode, both in front of the camera but also behind the camera, you know I wasn't naive and vain enough to think, oh, I'm going to be the next best presenter and like, no, like, I wanted to really broaden myself as like a whole package. So I think you've got to find enjoyment. If you don't, then that time is just going to be horrible. And then also the maturity to understand that if I was wanting to do really well on the field, to have those times of taking myself away from that and focusing on something else was actually going to have a benefit to how I focused on my rugby and then equally didn't get too carried away with it. So it was almost like it helped me on the field as much as obviously I knew it was going to be helping me off.
Speaker 2:There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be at retirement, injury or they need to juggle dual careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career. Second wind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
Speaker 3:And what is great about that is the fact you took the time to explore the different avenues of media. You took it at its broadest concept and took your time, or didn't rush to, I should probably say sounds better you. You didn't rush um trying to find the answer. You were open to explore and try different ways, or you know different avenues as well. How come? And a leading question in some respects but how comfortable were you at speaking to non non-athletes, non-people in the dugout? I mean, you're speaking to people have normal careers. How was that for you?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was. It was really genuinely interesting and, I think, important fast forward a little bit. It was in 2020 when, obviously, covid hit. I was at Saracens, which helped because I was very well connected at Saracens. They're in London and they've got great communication and everything like that with various business partners or whatever.
Speaker 1:And I actually started a podcast called the Next Game a story of transition, and that was all about me trying to speak to um former athletes who had gone into businesses. You know what had been their transition story, what would they advise? So actually speaking to them was almost like almost a bit of a cheat is that they still were athletes but they were in this world of, of the real world or whatever you want to call it, in different areas of business. And the funny thing is about it all now out of that athlete world is is they all those stories they were telling me are so true? The good and the bad? The reality is is communication is is very different in the real corporate world and compared to being an athlete in the change room, being an athlete for a game plan and it, it could be anything, man. It could be anything from feedback to the way you are genuinely speaking to someone. In athletes we speak to each other pretty brutally. Now we don't care, because we hold each other at a standard and a accountability, and we then also go and hug it out and have a pint straight afterwards. So it doesn't matter, we're all going for the same goal.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, I experienced, you know, it's a little bit different. You don't just go from A to B, you've got to go through this person and that person and be polite, bite your tongue and emails and all things like that. So anyway, going back to your question is I learned it probably through athletes who actually already had transitioned, which helped me then connect when I did connect with the outside world. And one of the biggest bits of advice I actually got from Phil Dowson, who was a rugby player at Northampton Saints when I was there. He's actually now director of rugby at Northampton Saints at the moment he's just won the premiership. Congratulations to him.
Speaker 1:But I never think he said I was 20 probably at the time. He said, well, 20 probably this time. He said, well, you are most valuable when you're a player because people want to be around you. So go on those golf days, go into businesses, go and build your network, because once you finish playing, you technically are just nowhere near as valuable as when you were playing, and I think that was one of the best bits of advice I could give.
Speaker 3:I don't necessarily fully agree with it now, because you're still very valuable in your next career, but he basically means build your network and don't be scared to as well that's right, and I think he's absolutely right and it's what we were saying as well is, whilst you've got the moment, whilst you're on, once you've got your moment in light, to actually use it and take advantage. Like you say, go on the golf days, as terrible as you are at golf, and go and speak to those people who, yeah, they're not like, they're not a player like me. I've no idea what they're going to ask me, but getting over there and talking to them, how did you build the confidence or at least how would you describe building confidence to someone to say, go and speak to that sponsor over there in the corner?
Speaker 1:because it will make your life so much easier in the long run. I'm telling you that now and I'm always finishing off your sentence rather than giving an answer. Is is like I was fortunate and I am fortunate. I'm quite a confident person, I love conversation, I'm sociable, and I understand that's not for everyone, but the reality is, as a sportsman, you always have things that are put on your lap. You're told where to be, you're told what to eat, you're told what to do and when to train. That just doesn't happen when you leave sport rarely, maybe in the military, and that's why military guys are very similar to athlete guys.
Speaker 1:But you have to go out and go and talk to people, because you'll be also amazed, I would say is like I guarantee you nine times out of ten. Those people want to help you because they will again want to connect with you. They are interested in you. You are far more interesting than maybe no disrespect joe blogs off the street. You know you, you have something about that's different. And then again, going then to the employment side of things, as athletes we have an understanding that is very different to maybe just the normal person and a drive and a determination that is very different to the normal person, which makes us very, very attractive and valuable to a business. So my thing would be is go and do it. It will help you in the long run. But also don't be scared, because I guarantee you, nine times out of 10, that person will want to be involved with you and help you.
Speaker 3:Well said, well said. Yeah, I'm curious for you then coming through that initial COVID period, getting the opportunities to start writing the profile came through. What steps did you take to enable your transition from that point onwards?
Speaker 1:podcast was involved in some other stuff. I did radio experience with, oh goodness, bbc Three sorry, bbc Three Counties Radio Shout out to them and just getting on there and just being on their talk show occasionally and just trying to put myself out there. That's the other thing as well with the media is, if you're not willing to put yourself out there, if you're not willing to try and build your profile I'm not much of a massive social media person, particularly like a TikTok or Instagrammer, but do try and put yourself out there because, again, if you don't, no one will and then connect, network, like I was networking a lot, especially when, as I say, coming weirdly being in COVID and coming out of COVID, even though you couldn't go into business buildings, offices that's a better word the reality is that, well, you could jump online with someone, you could have a Zoom, you could just sort of connect. People were way more, actually probably had more time, so I probably was lucky that I could connect with people during that time, rather than trying to be like, oh, can I get into your offices when you know? You know what it's like.
Speaker 1:People sometimes don't have that time. So that's what I was doing. I was really trying to broaden my, my network and then because of that age of when I was at Saracens, and then then I took the opportunity to go to America, realizing that I was going to finish my career come the age of 30, I really accelerated that even more. And then I was going to finish my career come the age of 30. I really accelerated that even more and then I was starting to do that over in the US as well as I was obviously doing in London.
Speaker 3:You know what's amazing here is professional athletes super confident. You know you've described yourself as a confident person, a confident athlete, and yet you are comfortable to go to to give it a shot. And you know bbc three counties radio like. When you said bbc three, I was like okay, bbc three, I get it. But he's like no, no, you, you went to local radio for those who are not in the uk, they're not going to know. You know this is local radio. But you went out and you've gone and tried to get that experience based on who was willing to give you that experience. You weren't saying no, no, no, no, I'm, I'm much the day level to start with. Thank you very much. This is why I'm coming.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. And that's probably for probably because of my rugby career as well. I was not a seasoned international having a century of appearances in the premiership, which, for various reasons, you could say well, I was injured at times, I didn't get opportunities at times. That's the victim in me, but that's also actually the reality of being like no, I worked really hard and did well, but you know, I had people who who probably in front of me that were better, and I'm fine to admit that now. So therefore I had probably an inner drive within me to being like well, I'm always going to have to fight for the opportunities and therefore, if an opportunity comes, do not just say no, think about it. I'm not saying you have to say yes to everything, but like that, that small opportunity going to a local startup agency in a bedford town sport internet website news agency could have been a zero thing.
Speaker 1:That was then the catalyst then, to be honest, being seen and then getting involved with the guardian to a degree. So that is that just the nature I had within me is, if you start small, you you end up building. If you think that you're going to go straight to the top, some people do some people do, good luck to them and well done. But actually if you, if you just think about what is the next little step that I can take to getting better, it's a bit like again, the athlete, you know the one percenters.
Speaker 1:I also was thinking of that on a off the field level, whereby how can I generate the most for myself in all different aspects, whether it be radio, podcast, writing, some small little television things, so that I could bundle it all together? Because guess what we haven't even used the word cv resume is you've got to build one. And if you don't build one and you think you're just going to hit smack a work experience at Sky Sports or Stand Sport or Fox Sport here in the US. Man, that's just not happening. So you've got to be realistic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and by build a CV it's, I guess, guess, building the content to go on there so you can demonstrate experience and probably demonstrate an interest and an agency to to get something done, to get out there and make it happen. So, yeah, really, I really like that is, you know, building that content on the on the CV for you. Thinking then about that end of your career, what plans did you make? As in how certain? Were you right? This is my last season, so as soon as I finish my season, I'm then going to do xyz, how close to your plan, or how close to the plan that you had? Um, so I've answered that, asked that in a very weird way, I think. But uh, what sort of plan did you have?
Speaker 1:it's a great question and one I'm really proud of to answer because, as I said, I didn't always have it perfectly in my career, whether that would be um performance or whether that be injury, as for all athletes and, like I say, still very proud of what I did do and achieved but I very much visioned like this is something I wanted to nail. I wanted to nail my transition. Having done all that sort of talks of people who had done transitions and struggled with the transitions. Well, you know some people that took years and and found, you know, found it horrible. I was like no, that is not going to be me. I know what I want to go after and I also said to myself when I moved from Saracens to the United States to play in San Diego, I just said, like what's an amazing opportunity, just on a lifestyle basis, for my wife and I? What amazing opportunity is a player to go into something relatively new and almost be know that entrepreneur, entrepreneur and whatever, whatever the right word is in terms of just being part of a startup, and then, equally as well, giving back because the usa given me so much with playing for usa rugby, and then, equally as well, like, do two years, get myself into maybe a market out there. You know how cool would that be. I said two years.
Speaker 1:It also coincided with the rugby world cup of 2023. Now, to go very long story short, that we didn't qualify for 2023 rugby world cup, which was horrific. But then even I had already two years out. I'd said to my wife and my close ones because they were were also maybe like you've had a few head knocks, will like you don't want too many more and you know, literally had a shoulder reconstruction, all things like that. I didn't want to go out. Not, I wanted to go out on my own terms and it was almost like that kind of 29, turning 30, you said, like a perfect opportunity to then take up a position and ultimately, again timing. I had been speaking with the league. I've been doing some partnership stuff with them. Loose heads, which is my um, this brand here I'm wearing loose heads were an ambassador, sort of mental health charity group within rugby. I brought them over, help bring them over to the US.
Speaker 1:So I was already already involving myself in the commercials and media side, working with the Fox Sport weekly show, and when I said, look, I'm going to retire, I had some good people in the organization, major League Rugby, said well, we would like to keep you. We'd like you to be one of our first transition athletes to come into the business. For my wife and I, it was a perfect opportunity, the timing and you could say a bit of luck. It was a bit of luck, but you also earn your own luck, and that's what I'm trying to also say.
Speaker 1:I don't look at myself now and think, geez, I've just been given a golden ticket. I earned that and I'm very proud to say that, as much as I've still got a lot to learn. But that was my thing Two years worth of knowing that I was going to put a pin on it and say that's going to be it, and to do that. Enable me to enjoy it more. If I'm going to be honest and then also focus me on looking at those opportunities both in the UK and the US, this one just came up and it was like, yeah, that's right, that's the one I'm going to go for that's great, that's really good.
Speaker 3:The bit I take away most from that is by having a plan, you allowed yourself to enjoy it. It's like it freed you to say enjoy this moment. This is it, my last two years, I'm going to enjoy this, and you did simple as that, and that's really powerful.
Speaker 1:Yes, and actually I would say to be honest, ryan as well. I said how much I enjoy my rugby playing for Bedford. It was probably some of my most enjoyable rugby playing here in San Diego, you know, california with some great people, great friends, beautiful weather, beautiful place on the on this world, and then again knowing about my next stages. I know some people are not big forward planners and I'm also. I try not to be as well, but like having some form of go-to and an aim was important for me and it drove me to then be in the position, ultimately, where I am today that's really really good.
Speaker 3:So now you're in this new environment. You're not playing, playing. You're still inside the sport, but you're on the other side. What's been the most difficult thing about adapting to this change for you?
Speaker 1:I think one of the hardest things has been actually the great thing that I sort of turned around to Major League Rugby. My wife sort of said to them she's like, well, will can take the job, but we're not moving, we're staying here in San Diego which fair play. And I was all behind as well. But working remote which a bunch of the sort of office does it was and is hard. You know, I've been in a team environment this whole time. It's all I've known really since as a profession, and therefore having to jump on Zooms or Google Meets and try and bond and have that social interaction for me was difficult because I was so reliant on having good social interaction, being face to face. That's definitely been one of the challenges and that brings it into, like the communication emails, just trying to gauge people's reactions, trying to learn stuff as well, and I don't just have someone next to me just to be able to ask simple stupid questions. And also, again, people communicate different compared to the athlete world. And it's taken me time. I honestly, I genuinely believe it probably took me about eight months. I realized I probably only in the last couple of months do I feel like I've turned a corner in terms of you know also, in what the job that I was doing, it was very much right. Well, we're going to bring you in the business and you're going to get involved in this, that whatever. And now I feel like, okay, I feel like I've got more of a purpose now Meanwhile.
Speaker 1:At the beginning it was kind of just like right here I am, let's go. But the challenge is definitely that the team environment is very different and the communication environment is very different. And then, lastly, is your time? Is I genuinely feel busy? If you thought you were out that you were busy, this is now, in the real words, you're busy. And then you have to. Time management is key and something which I'm still learning and then probably last of all sorry, I'm waffling is is being present.
Speaker 1:You know, I wasn't always the best as a rugby player. You know, I'd still be thinking about rugby all the time and I was trying to help myself with stuff off the field. I was also trying to be a good boyfriend, a good husband. You know, um, I'm finding it like, because I'm working at home, because I'm traveling, spending a lot of time kind of on my own, to try and just take myself away from it. Sometimes it's hard because you're always thinking about it. That is something also. I'm learning um again, which is just different maybe to what I've I've had before in my athlete career yeah it, it is and, um, you know what?
Speaker 3:what I do find interesting there for you is moving from that team environment, team sport, but moving to another team, but being completely remote and not getting that I guess in, like you say, in-house, that friction experience where you're rubbing shoulders with someone all the time, but one of the bits you do mention because of the well, in fact, what, what we, what I do want to do, because you're still following the rugby schedule in in some respects, um, but the training's different. So you're still getting on a plane and getting out and traveling. How does it feel for you to follow a rugby schedule but not be playing?
Speaker 1:yeah, and again, one of the bits of advice I was given is that apparently the first year is a bit of a novelty and then after that you realize, oh, wow, I'm not playing anymore. So I'm very much probably still on that honeymoon stage. I love still being part of it. I haven't missed, I don't miss it yet. Whenever I see those lads flying into each other, the collisions and rugby, I'm like I'm glad I wake up in that sunday morning feeling just a lot fresher. Um, but it's, it's still very good to be part.
Speaker 1:It goes back to the enjoyment and also like still I have my purpose and it's great that's still in my sport. Um, that's still important to me, certainly for the moment. Transitioning out of it. It's almost like if I just suddenly went away, got myself completely away from rugby. I don't know, I think I'd be really missing it. I'm still connected with rugby people, I'm still speaking to mates, I'm still very much involved. Again goes back to that value. I've got a new value now. It's been on the microphone, it's been you know, experiences of of as a player, to then trying to bring that into the business element. So that makes it definitely easier this transition for sure that's great.
Speaker 3:That's great so well. Last couple of questions really thinking about and we've touched on it as we've gone through this conversation which is really the idea it's not just you know one soundbite, but it's the full conversation. That's been interesting and thanks for sharing your perspective and story so far. But for someone who is listening and they are saying to themselves, well, how do I get into the similar industry? It sounds interesting where you are and what you're doing. What advice would you give to an athlete to help them to transition into the I guess into that media space?
Speaker 1:I think you've got to put yourself out there, and I'm not saying you've got to jump on TikTok and do weird videos and all that sort of stuff which, by the way, that's one bit of media wasn't, still isn't me but you've got to put yourself out there. You said earlier about the confidence to go up to and network with people in a building or on a box at a venue. You know aftermatch function, whatever it might be. It goes back to my point. It's like it's just not going to land in your lap, and particularly in media. You've got to show that you are someone who's personable and you're someone who likes and can have conversation. I then also would stress the importance of experience.
Speaker 1:Build your experience If you want to get into something like this again. You don't just just because you play, just go. Oh well, I'm just going to pick up the mic. Someone's going to offer me a gig of doing a you know color commentating, like no, you need to build something. You might need to start kind of towards the bottom. You might need to, you know, build those connections so you can drop an email just to say to the local radio, whatever being like hey look, I'm in the area, I'm interested in media. I'd love to share some things and experience because, again, guess what a lot of people would be wanting you. Um, just you've got to go to them. It's not as though they're just going to come to you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I definitely think, go out there. Um, it's a bit like the old saying when you, when you're playing sport, go out there and express yourself. I never always know what that completely means, but then, equally, go out there and get involved and then gain experience. And I think the other thing with the media side things as well, is don't be afraid for rejection, because the reality is you're not always going to be picked up for everything small, medium or large. Be okay with getting feedback and saying I'm sorry that, not to be or no, we're going to go down this direction. You know, you know, as an athlete, about failure. You know about not getting in the team. Use that as a good experience, to just accept it and then don't give up on it. But, yeah, you've got to use your net. At the end of the day, you've got to use your network and and not be afraid to put yourself out there and will.
Speaker 3:For those listening, who want to keep following your story, what's the, what's the best way to interact with you and really checking with what you're up to nowadays?
Speaker 1:what's the best way to interact with you and really checking with what you're up to nowadays? Well, I mean, I am across those social platforms. Um, love you know what, ever since I sort of was moving towards retirement. Linkedin is a wonderful tool. It's how we connected and ultimately like it. It's. It definitely is a way to build your network.
Speaker 1:Uh, so you can find me there just will hooly, um, I'm on x, the old twitter will underscore hooly. I'm on instagram, instagram, sorry, w hooly, all one word. And I, I am on tiktok. I don't really use it as much, um, as well, but but yeah, I, I, I am honestly, I'm an open book. I really want to help athletes with their transition. I always say to to rugby guys. Like you know, I remember being in positions where I was trying to call former rugby players asking for their advice or whatever. I'm more than happy to give it. I'm just at the beginning, you know, and my story in next year, two, three years time might be very different to what it is now, but I'm enjoying what it is at the moment. I've liked to think that I've earned what it is at the moment in more ways than one, and I'm also challenged to know that I've got to keep learning and keep getting better to get success in this new career.
Speaker 3:Thanks very much for joining me today and sharing your story Absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it. Ryan, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank claire from betty book design, nancy from savvy podcast solutions, and cerise from copying content by lola, for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.
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