2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
118: David Watters - From Tech Innovator to Transforming Inclusive Gay Rugby Globally
In honor of LGBTQ History Month, Ryan is excited to speak with David Watters, an LGBTQ+ rugby player, innovation consultant, and business coach based in the UK. While many of our guests transition from sports to other fields, David's story is unique: he transitioned from the boardroom to the rugby pitch. Now playing for the Airmill Warriors, David is a strong advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusion in sports. As an innovator and startup accelerator, he specializes in integrating new technologies into transportation and city infrastructure.
David’s journey marks a significant shift since he first joined LGBTQ rugby. From its humble beginnings with the Kings Cross Steelers in 1995, the International Gay Rugby (IGR) movement has blossomed into a global network of over 100 teams. This growth highlights the broader trend of incorporating diversity and inclusion within traditional rugby clubs and across the sports world.
David’s expertise in building successful sports and corporate teams is evident. He draws insightful parallels between his sports experience and his innovation work, offering practical tips for creating inclusive environments. He emphasizes how rugby clubs can foster a welcoming atmosphere for all.
Tune in to learn more about:
- David's innovative career trajectory and his transition into rugby
- His initial challenges and feelings of exclusion when starting in the sport
- Reflections on traditional rugby cultures and the unique challenges faced by LGBTQ+ players
- The expansion of the International Gay Rugby (IGR) movement and its impact on creating safe spaces for LGBTQ+ players
- The importance of team mentality, recognizing individual strengths, and building a supportive culture
- How the IGR movement has influenced traditional rugby clubs and broader inclusivity in sports
- Practical steps clubs should embrace to foster inclusivity
- David's insightful analogy between sports and business leadership, and the benefits of applying sports lessons to the corporate world and vice versa
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
Davids Linkedln:https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidcwatters
Website: https://igrugby.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/igrclubhouse/
So you just mentioned globally inclusive rugby, inclusive gay rugby. Talk to me a bit about what that movement is and what sort of impact it has.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so give a bit of history on it. So it kind of started initially in 1995 by a team in London called the King's Cross Steelers. There was about eight men in a bar at King's Cross and they decided to meet up and play rugby. And that was in 1995. And from that there, if we're going, it's a deep-seated club that then grew and grew and grew and then they were playing more games with local teams. They got a lot of media attention at that time because it was so different. There wasn't that sort of a gay-inclusive team, it just wasn't as common at that time. And then later on there was Team 7, san Francisco, and then it just kind of grew momentum and I think over time. Now the IGR, which is International Gay Rugby, was founded in 2000.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 2:David, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on here today. Hey, thanks very much for having me. It's great to be here, excellent.
Speaker 1:Now what is actually really fascinating about you coming onto the show is typically really flooded with elite athletes coming from the olympics coming from with elite athletes coming from the Olympics coming from professional sport into the corporate world. What I'm really fascinated about unpicking with you is the way you flip that from coming from what is really a corporate and a very, I should say, an innovative industry and really stepping into what is global sport, but also with a purpose and with a voice as well. So I'm looking forward to unpicking a bit of your rationale and and some of the story behind that yeah, no, definitely looking forward to kind of getting stuck in.
Speaker 2:Hopefully this will be a good conversation and definitely probably different to some of the other people. I've haven't come from that elite sporting background, so it's definitely going to be kind of nice to talk a little more about that yeah, absolutely well, look, look, david, for those tuning in, watching, listening.
Speaker 1:Tell everyone who's listening a little bit more about you. Introduce yourself and tell us what you do.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've introduced myself well, I was born in 1993. No, I won't go back that far, no, so a bit about myself. So I would say, professionally what I do is I um, I work in innovation so here in the uk. So what I do as a day to kind of day job is I help small medium enterprises who are developing technology move that into the transport and city infrastructure sector, which is like I would help companies who are developing new technology or have a technology that's been applied to a different industry move that into kind of the city plan and transport infrastructure sectors. So that's kind of what I do in a day to day. So I'm working on very early stage innovators and helping them bring that and kind of merge that in, so which is really interesting. So it's very much about how you can take these innovations, apply to a new sector and kind of connect the dots for people, whether that's innovators with industry, and let that happen in a much smoother way. So that's kind of what I do in a day-to-day kind of basis.
Speaker 2:Before that I worked in tech through like media and events. So I spend years working in the events industry at large scale tech conferences, really focusing in on investment, trade and how you can, but also looking at speakers. So in terms of of what's the content strategy for the events, the program of content, who's going to speak at it, but also what is the strategic position of this event overall? What are we trying to say, what's the impact, what are people getting out of it? So then again, that was all very much tied to tech, innovation, startups an awful lot of that. So I've worked for the likes of the Web Summit, which is a large event over here in europe, and I've worked as well for in ireland in the don't text summit, and then I kind of transitioned my career more towards working directly with small, medium enterprises and investment, rather than kind of the event side of it, which, deep down, what I'm doing now is kind of what I love is kind of enabling the next wave of change, the next wave wave of innovation.
Speaker 2:But it's been a fascinating kind of journey career-wise so far. So that's a little bit about me professionally. The sports side of it is quite different. So I got into sports age of 24. So I was 24 years of age and that's when I got into team sports and rugby, which for some people they think starting playing a team sport at a later age. It's quite tough if you've never done a team sport before. But wrong me at the age of 24 when someone's are thinking, yeah, my best days are behind me, especially if they've been playing from the age of four or five and all their lives.
Speaker 1:To start playing a sport like that when you've never held a go on sorry well, I was gonna say, of all of the sports, to start playing one where you're going in and getting hit by somebody. Were you keen for a fight and had just never done that as you grew up?
Speaker 2:But you know what's funny? I had two older brothers who were considerably older than me and when you have older brothers you're used to being head and throat about the place. It's kind of normal. It's kind of how brothers show love to each other. So in terms of that, there I was always kind of well able to handle myself in a fight. But do you know what?
Speaker 2:Growing up I think about a background on that I grew up in rural Ireland, so rural Republic of Ireland, northwest Ireland, tiny village in the middle of nowhere, and the main sport there was Gaelic football and for anyone maybe listening that's very similar to Aussie rules. It's not the same, but it's a similar type of sports was Gaelic football. And I never grown up not only did I not really get don't really enjoy that sport, I was terrible I also. I grew up gay. I didn't at the time. I didn't realize until my 20s I was gay, but I never really felt sports was something that was comfortable for me. I was bullied and I never really found sports as a safe place but, I always had an affinity towards sports.
Speaker 2:I've always wanted to play and as I got older then I think maybe I my teenage years 14, 15 I really wanted to kind of get into sports. The only option was Gaelic football and that is a sport that everyone starts playing at five, six years of age where I come from. So I felt I was too old, I wasn't going to get into it. So I joined rugby at 24 or anyone who follows every rugby knows Ireland. I went to university in Lumberick, where Munster rugby is really big, and I think that's when I started following rugby a lot more, because you're just surrounded by people who just are passionate about rugby and I realized I really want to kind of play that sport. Then again, I'm too old me, I would say my best years are behind me. It's very late in the day to get involved with that type of a sport.
Speaker 2:So, turned 24 and I wasn't, I moved to Dublin and I was. I came out when I was like 22, I would say, and I was at a pride event and I saw this team in Dublin called the Aramid Warriors, which was like anq plus inclusive team. The whole, I would say, remit of the club was to make it a safe space for people who are identified as lgbtq, plus, especially, probably, that they could join. I was like a safe place to join the sport, whether they used to play rugby when I was a sport or wanted to get into it. It was a way to go into the sport and I said you know what? You're nothing venture, nothing game. I'll go for that. I've always wanted to do it for a while. I've always said this want to play rugby. I said you know what? I'll join this club.
Speaker 1:So I've been asked why wouldn't you just join any club most clubs not really up at the time, this gone so for you coming back in to decide to play rugby, were you looking for a specific type of club or were you just saying, yeah, I want to play rugby and I'm more confident, or something that just said, yep, I'm ready to play? What made you look for that club in particular?
Speaker 2:you know, I think I've always wanted to play sports, you know, and I think confidence is a big thing and I think when you look back at the time, especially when I was just coming out, you're trying to get your career it was early 20s. I'm trying to get my career going, I'm trying to make sense of my sexuality, and then I always did this thing too. I was in a new city, I wanted to get involved people, but I always said this I'm not actually very competitive. You know, I work in a business industry. I used to be in sales. There's that competitive instant, that drive, and I loved playing the sport.
Speaker 2:I loved rugby as a sport. I love watching it. You know, ireland as a team have always been very good, except at World Cup quarterfinals. I won't say much more about that, but it's always been a sport I was really passionate about. I really enjoyed watching and I really wanted to play. And I think, number one, I thought it was too late for me to get in to rugby. I saw this kind of LGBT inclusive club that made it very clear that they take pure big arms. They've never held a rugby ball in their life and for me too, I thought, if I join a club this kind of like your traditional rugby club, which is very grassroots, which have people from a young age, and I join at 24 and being openly gay, I didn't want people thinking, oh he's rubbish because he's gay, because gay men aren't good at sports. I didn't want at least if you're joining kind of a gay club, that at least if I'm rubbish it's because I'm rubbish, it's got nothing to do with me being gay and in a way, that was nice.
Speaker 2:It was a safe place to learn. So I was thinking it wasn't something I had to worry about, it wasn't that I needed to come out how do I let people know? I didn't have to worry about that and that would never have to be a concern. It was just about focusing on the sport, focusing on the skill, trying to get better, focusing on getting to a level of really good performance that I'm going into games, I'm winning, I'm contributing and also rugby. It's a sport you got to kind of go in for all. You can't go in hesitant because if you do that you're going to get injured, and for me it was somewhere I could focus on it because well, I'm just curious then, because you're talking about joining a club that is that supports lgbt, that says this is who we are.
Speaker 1:Who did you play against?
Speaker 2:yeah. So we competed in dublin in the leinster metro league. So we're playing Dublin in the Leinster Metro League. So we're playing against kind of all our kind of clubs from the Dublin area, which is, you know, so for one a better word and I hate this expression you could say normal teams, which I don't always like that expression, but like teams that maybe aren't associated with being LGBTQ or whatever. So we're playing against them. So maybe not their like elite teams we're not going to have that level, but like they're maybe standing maybe in their second or third team down in the league. We're in a lower, lower division. We're playing against those teams.
Speaker 1:So how were you and your club treated in that environment?
Speaker 2:Overall it's been really positive. You know, I was very fortunate in the sense that I never experienced in those early years. So this was I just give a bit more context I joined this club back in 2017. So at that time, this was two years after Ireland legalised St Marge, so it was a very different Ireland to maybe the Ireland of the 90s, you know. So at that time, you know there was really in 2017, I didn't see any huge homophobia on the field.
Speaker 2:People treated us normal. You know, as a squad we were quite mixed level of ability, like the club I was in at the time, the animal warriors. They had one team at the time, which is now growing to two to three teams, including the women's team. So there was one team was mixed level. I was on the receiving end of lots of defeats where the other team was getting huge scores against, but they always treated the team with respect. You know what I mean. There was always good. There was never any type of homophobia that I experienced. There have been occasions, maybe later years, you have teams that are using slurs on the field against it. It has happened. You know it's not. I'm happy to say that isn't common massively from my experience, but it does happen. There is an awareness there. You hope that doesn't happen on the field, but it can happen, but it's. It's few and far between, I'm happy to say, to be honest. So that would be an isolated incident yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you know what it makes me think? It actually makes me think if we recorded two teams that were not outwardly supporting lgbtq, what would the slurs be like there? And then how were the slurs different? Was we recorded two teams that were not outwardly supporting LGBTQ, what would the slurs be like there? And then how were the slurs different? Was it increased or not? Because I think even on the field as I would play slurs around homophobia et cetera that would be commonplace. So you just maybe think I wonder if it's heightened, because it would have been your team, Probably. It's just interesting as I listen to you there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think too, like also around, like language is inclusive. You know, I think that and this comes down to a lot of people feeling comfortable to come out in their own clubs. You know, I think there's sometimes there's a lot of locker room banter, that people say words or they say things that could be construed as homophobic or that to question someone's manhood and it's linked to being gay or whatever, or whatever the language is, and sometimes it might prevent someone from coming out because they're thinking, well, hold on, this is how they all speak. If I come out now in this type of environment, this is speaking prominently about men what's that going to be like? How am I going to be received? Are people's opinion of me going to drastically change?
Speaker 2:And it is that kind of thing around. It's not people being overly sensitive, but it's about what does that do to the psychology of a culture, that if someone hasn't come out, do they think coming out is going to drastically change their position, their relationships or how they're perceived in a club? And I think that comes down to why inclusive gay rugby as a movement globally is very much. It's so important because it removes that fear, that fear is no longer there, and I think that's kind of a very important thing it is.
Speaker 1:So you just mentioned globally inclusive rugby, inclusive gay rugby. Talk to me a bit about what that movement is and what sort of impact it has.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so give a bit of history on it. So it kind of started initially in 1995 by a team in London called the King's Cross Steelers. There was about eight men in a bar at King's Cross and they decided to meet up and play rugby and that was in 1995. And from that there it's a deep history of the club that then grew and grew and grew and then they were playing more games with local teams. They were. They got a lot of media attention at that time because it was so different. It hadn't really there wasn't that sort of a gay inclusive teams just wasn't as common at that time. And then in the round, do you think. Then later on there was team set up in san francisco and then it just kind of grew momentum and, I think, over time. Now the IGR, which is International Gay Rugby, was founded in 2000. And then there was teams popping up all over the world. So you're talking Australia, new Zealand, america, across Europe, and from one team in 1995 to today, in 2024, there's over 100 teams globally. Over 100 teams globally that would be set up under the IGR, which the whole remit is promoting inclusion within rugby, especially for the LGBTQ plus community, not just men but females, trans players.
Speaker 2:And it's not that you need to be exclusively in this group to join these teams. It's just set up as a safe space. So I played for the team in Dublin and we had our token straight men on the team, as you do it was. It's not that way. It's like oh, it's 55 there, we need one. It's just it's the remit is that it's predominantly a safe space and then every two years it's a safe space. It's a safe space to come to be yourself.
Speaker 2:And for a lot of people they might not even like some of the negative sides of rugby culture in any club, so they find that actually the culture is created in these igr clubs. International rugby clubs are really supportive. They're really, they're good and that's not saying that all the clubs on the 100 are brilliant and they get everything perfect. That's the most perfect culture. No, it's a traditional rugby club. You know you go, you do your training, you're being coached and you might like certain coaches, you might like certain training, you might not. You might like your team, you might like. It's like any other club. It's exactly the same. It's just a safe space. That your sexuality doesn't be quite, it doesn't come in, it's not a concern you have. You have every other concern.
Speaker 2:And what is also good about IGR is they have tournaments every. They have tournaments every year. So they have a regional tournament once one year and all a year they have the international tournament, which is the Bingham Cup, which is the biggest amateur rugby tournament in the world. So the most recent one was May in Rome and there was over 140 teams and 5,000 attendees overall. So, like for an amateur tournament, that is quite large. It's very large for something that was very small, which is very much around promoting diversity, inclusion. But it's also a celebration of sport and I was there thinking about it the other day.
Speaker 2:If you think of from 1995 to now and all these hundreds of clubs and now, you'd be in the thousands of thousands of players that would have gone through and discovered sports and maybe have went on to other clubs and moved around. But it's a great movement that if those institutions didn't exist there's a lot of people that never would have gone into rugby, never would have gone to sports. And from doing that I've competed over the world. I've competed in canada, I've competed in around europe and competed at different international tournaments. You'll represent in my country represent in ireland and that's just a huge. They get to compete at a level where you're represent your country, you're country, your team's being sponsored by the same sponsors. You sponsor your national team and the regional teams like Munster and stuff. It gives you a really great sense of pride. But it also means without these movements a lot of people would never have those experiences or get into the sport.
Speaker 1:And I think that's why they're so important, because it gives access to people that may feel that they're it's not accessible for them otherwise and so, to that point, the ability for the igr to create a safe space for people to learn, for people to, I guess, demonstrate and live through an enjoyment of the sport. When you think about the people that your teammates, what types of, I guess, stories or situations have they found themselves in that has stopped them playing, and how happy are they to, I guess, find a safe space to come?
Speaker 2:do you know, I think some people you know, I think everyone's very different and I think that's something very unique about these clubs. You've got people that come in from all walks of life. So you've got people that have maybe played to a really high level especially more within the UK, a high level, that have left, that have come back into these clubs. You've got people who've joined from a social side to make friends. You have people like myself who had such a negative experience around sports growing up, had didn't feel it was something that was ever going to happen and for me when I joined it was like this is my, would say, my last chance. When I was 24 playing rugby. It was kind of like my last kind of route and like if I left it, I was going to leave it any later it was going to be really passionate.
Speaker 2:But there's, you know, I think there's some people in my own kind of rugby club now the kings cross steelers where they would have played sports left because they just didn't feel that the culture of some rugby clubs really suited them, kind of the sometimes I would say the level, some of the toxicity. So then they join these kind of gay inclusive clubs where they felt it was a little bit more open. You really need to develop a culture that is benefiting people from all walks of life. You know that join these clubs for a multitude of different reasons and if that is, comes a great responsibility to create the culture that if you're joining your advertisers have a safe space. It needs to be a safe space because if people come and have a negative space and what's positioned to somewhere that's safe and inclusive and don't have that experience, it's really they may never return to sports. So there's also a huge pressure there as well.
Speaker 1:How do you think the IGR has influenced the traditional rugby clubs?
Speaker 2:I think massively I would say probably the biggest impact. I can speak about the team in Ireland that I was with, the Ermoud Warriors. So we hosted a tournament in 2019 to get our bad back in the Union Cup and we had a massive involvement from the likes of Guinness, vodafone, bank of Ireland, who are all big sponsors of the Irish national team and of the Six Nations that tournament and what we found was the Irish IRFU, the Irish Football Rugby Union. They were very much involved with us and they have a head of diversity and inclusion and the Warriors fed into that kind of diversity and inclusion strategy and how that and how all our clubs should then work from a club grassroots level in terms around inclusion and building those frameworks in. So that's how it's done.
Speaker 2:So it's not always these kind of big, sometimes vanity, metrics. It's like having those conversations. It's getting access to the people that can have those impact then on a local, on and at that local level, I think too is also advocacy. You know, I think people want to know a lot more, like I've done different talks around gay inclusive rugby and I get a lot of questions about, like the people in their own clubs, what do they need to do and what should they do to make things more open and inclusive?
Speaker 1:and sometimes just talking about it and, in a weird way, not even being a face, but be representing the agr and representing what you do gets conversations going yeah, because it's there and I'm thinking people are going to be listening to this and be their players or be they the, I guess, officials within a club, thinking, well, this is fantastic, okay, as a club, they're not necessarily a gay inclusive club outwardly, but what is it that they should be doing or could be doing to actually say, well, hold on, this should be a safer space for, indeed, I suppose, any kind of diversity. Really, what are the key things you'd say they should be doing?
Speaker 2:I think the first thing a club should be doing is number one don't over complicate at first. Don't be getting scared by it that you need to do all these amazing things and all this stuff. It's something very simple like have like even something like a survey of the club. Is how people feel comfortable and have it anonymized. You know, have you ever faced you could be comfortable in the club? It's doing a pulse check of what it's really like, I think, and it's very hard to do it in a room full of people oh, is there anyone here who's actually in the closet? Oh yeah, I am. That's not going to work.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's about asking questions, fostering change. Something as simple as like having if you have flags at the place, having a pride flag up nearby, because then people know, okay, they're getting inclusive. Sometimes it's simple things like that. It's training around unconscious bias for people. It's similar like a business. Actually it's very similar to a business like managers of unconscious bias training. You know you're.
Speaker 2:How do you build a culture? What are some of the challenges people might face or coming out? What are some of the? It's asking questions. It's talking about experts in e, in diversity and inclusion. It's talking to like your local or national representatives and asking those questions, seeing what frameworks, what best guidance is out there. You know we have access what the internet is, to tools, of lots of things. It's that people just need to be interested and wanting to create that space. And that's step one.
Speaker 2:You ask a survey, you see, well, what is the what's the current feeling within the club and then you kind of you build on it there, but you do small, actionable things and you don't over complicate stuff. You know, I think people sometimes get very scared of doing the wrong thing or the big change that they end up doing nothing. Yeah, or you end up in constant con decisions by committee and sometimes it's as simple as what do we want to do? What's the easiest things we can do so far to showcase that this is a safe place for you to join? Is it putting on your website we accept people from all backgrounds? Is it having a private like? Is it just doing something that suggests yes, we're aware this is a safe space for people to join, and sometimes it's as simple as it.
Speaker 2:Now some people might listen and think, ah, it's not, not just rainbow washing. Well, not necessarily. If I was looking to join a rugby club and I seen that they had a pride flag up or they wore pride laces for some games or they did something. I'm thinking, do you know what? Yeah, I'll go there. That would probably be a safe place. They're not going to be freaked out or thinking I'm going to be looking everyone up and down on the side of a field, because, like it's also that sense too is that I don't want to go somewhere where people might feel uncomfortable we me being there in like a locker room situation and stuff. So it's a lot of that too. It's just about doing simple things and not over complicating it and just asking people questions and going to talks and educating yourself.
Speaker 1:Well, I like the way you've described that. You know very simple steps for those interested in creating a safer space than perhaps they already have, or indeed recognizing what sort of space do they have, whether it is safe or not. But it starts simply by, as you say, asking the question, making it anonymous or asking in the best way possible, but then also looking at events or, let's say, signals at the stadium, at the ground, on their website. That demonstrates that they would be inclusive and I think, as many are doing is, or as many opportunities there are to participate in a pride round or week, and be it laces or something that just gives a signal that hey, it's okay, this is a safe space to come and play rugby or indeed come and play sport.
Speaker 2:That's really good it's not just rugby, it's all sports. Like you know, in ireland or like, there's so many sports seem to sit up that are all lgbt inclusive, outside of rugby as well. But I think rugby as a sport and like I am obviously biased because I love rugby is that it's a sport that's built for all shapes and sizes and abilities. You know especially rugby. You know you've got your props and you've got your wingers and you've got there's a full spectrum of size, ability, skills. Everyone's got their job on the field as any kind of team sport. But I think rugby is where you can, aesthetically there's quite strong differences between certain players. Everyone's got their strength and stuff. So it is that kind of place where, as a sport, it's very diverse in the makeup of its players and the skills on the field. So I think actually bringing that kind of diversity into these clubs is actually not super challenging, but it's making people really reassess.
Speaker 2:What does it mean to be a safe place? What is my language like? Am I, how's my behavior? And that's not only for clubs that are known like igr within the gay context that aren't igr related. Igr clubs have to do the same work themselves. Being a gay club does not necessarily mean that you're diverse and everything else you still have to do the same work themselves. Being a gay club does not necessarily mean that you're diverse and everything else you still have to do. That work as a club you've got to be. There's that there, you know, just because you have a pride flag, I say, doesn't mean that you're doing all the work. So there's still more to do. But it starts by the right intentions.
Speaker 1:That's where it starts now you coming from an innovation or an innovative place, a, a startup place, looking at scale, how do you bring, or what do you think helps you to, I guess, amplify the IGR, the International Gay Rugby? How do you use your skills from work to sort of amplify that voice and that message?
Speaker 2:You know, I think in my job, you know, especially with innovation, you do just a huge amount of communication. That kind of goes on, and sometimes biggest thing is communicating complex maybe technology or solutions in a very simple way that appeals to another audience to get by it, and that's a lot of what I do. Sometimes you're kind of like the middle person or that that brings people together to kind of drive action, and I think that's a huge thing and very similar to sports. That's what sports from a field is. Again, you're bringing people together to work towards one objective and you're trying to bring that in In terms of amplifying the message.
Speaker 2:I think, if I've looked at how to amplify the message of like IGR and what I do wider in business, it's about building the frameworks.
Speaker 2:It's like looking at like, okay, like if I looked at IGR, some people aren't into rugby, right, so not everyone's into sports, but what's unique about the IGR is that idea of a safe space and how do you build a safe space and what are the characteristics and how do you set that up and what are the steps, and finding a framework and saying, okay, let's take this back, look at this framework and how do we apply this to business.
Speaker 2:How can this be applied to a small, medium enterprise that's at a lower level, that they're building a safe, inclusive space to perform your very best in your career, to have an objective and have an outcome? And vice versa is how can you take lessons from business and apply that to sports? So, for example, it's like that drive or that going for an outcome, or that competitive to win business or to win some. How do you take the characteristics of business and apply it to sports and those overlapping skills? And there's so much overlap between sports and business and sports in any sort of career, and I think for me it's very much about how can you take the frameworks or the lessons of one and apply it to another. And I think sports and business there's such clear alignment quite striking yeah, I guess there is that must.
Speaker 1:I suspect you get quite tempted to meddle a bit more than in the club and what the club's doing from its media and how it grows and attracts players. Do you find yourself doing that?
Speaker 2:it's interesting, you know, um I because I'm fairly new to the club in London. I've been in London since November 2023. So at the time of this recording, I've only been here for seven, eight months. So I'm trying to. With any kind of new clubs, there's always this feeling to kind of take a step back because everyone likes that new person comes up. Oh, by the way, this is what you're doing wrong and I'm going to show you what you're doing right. Part of you sometimes has to step back, listen and focus on the rugby. But for me, I kind of use a lot of energy and I bring what I learned from rugby and that into my job. You know, for me that was a huge part of it. That's what I kind of do. I bring the lessons.
Speaker 1:I love how you describe bringing that energy from rugby into the workplace. Can you think of an example of what that looks like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know? I think the best example is, I think, is around team mentality, like what I think and I think I touched on it earlier. You know, in rugby you've got everyone's got their role on a field. Ok, you've got from like your prop, from your fly up, your wingers from forwards, from forwards back. You've got this collection of individuals. They're all out there in their own kind of job. They're all pushing forward.
Speaker 2:And what I remember my first day I played rugby, someone said to me we're going into tackles, don't hesitate, just go in, don't be scared. You don't just go in for it and give it your all, don't hesitate, give it your all and you go in and you stop. You're going to get cleaned out of it, you're going to get injured, but it's about so. There's that set of it. So what I learned was is that two big things I learned from roby is that everyone's got their role on the team and everyone doesn't need to be amazing at every single thing you do. You have these odd players. You can do whatever. You've got these amazing probably there I my experience is they're few and far between.
Speaker 2:There's very few people that can do everything incredibly, amazingly well. Right, they're few and far between at every kind of level. But what I found out when you take that into the workplace and you're looking at building a high performance team, you're never going to get someone who can do everything. Everyone's got their strengths or weaknesses and it's how you bring them together and mobilize that team and learn as a team. You're not always going to go out as rugby and win every day, but you've got to reflect on what went well, what didn't go well, what configuration of players, who's the high impact player you take off the bench and how do you bring that into work. So not every project you run with a team is going to work out amazingly well. Just because someone has a bad week or a bad month doesn't make them bad at their job. They just had a rough patch and I said well how do you?
Speaker 2:mobilize and create a team where everyone's bringing something to it. They're adding to the team, but there's that kind of common thread that unites everybody and also that people approach it. Back to what I was saying about no hesitation, that they're going for, they're not frightened of failure and I think for anyone who's a founder or startup, you can't let the fear of failure stop you from getting into the game. You've got to just go for it, because if you hesitate you're going to get cleaned out of it. But if you go for it 100%, you might still get cleaned out of it, but you committed and you're going to bounce back a lot quicker than if you're going in and you stop. You're still going to get cleaned out and I think that's the energy.
Speaker 2:It's that thing about everyone bringing something, that awareness of creating something and mobilising people to work towards that objective and having that clear vision and developing that culture within the team, but also that kind of drive towards an objective. And I think there was a. I'm going off on a tangent here, but there was a player in Irish Gaelic football called Bernard Brogan and he was part of the Dublin GA team and this was a part of a team that won nearly seven back-to-back All-Ireland titles in Gaelic football Really successful team. And he set up a company that was very much about culture and bringing culture and that into businesses and I think it focuses mainly on construction sector Now. And he mentioned at the time that all the work you do in the team, culture and getting along and all that time into building a culture, when it comes to a final game where you're maybe one or two points in it and there's five minutes to go and you have to mobilize the team and be clinical and disciplined, investing in that culture at that time is what's going to drive you over the line.
Speaker 2:And that's the same while you're working on an event, when you're building up to a big project or a big target, is that when things are getting a bit sketchy or you're going for a big pitch and you don't know what way it's going to go and you have a team building into it, invest in your culture and mobilize your, your team, and having everything brought together it's what's going to get you over the line. So all that time you invest in your culture is what is going to get you kind of over the line. And I know I went on there on a bunch of tangents and stuff, but I think that's what I love about sports and that's what I think sports is so good. It's about the team and that's what it's all about. It's about the team and that's what it's all about. It's about team and I could chat about that. I could chat about that for hours, so I went all in there.
Speaker 1:Well, likewise, I'm fully with you Now. It's good listening to you there, because you're really emphasising the importance of a togetherness, a team, also emphasising the role that everyone plays within that team, setting a clear goal. And what I love, then is the not just the mobilization aspect, but then is the commitment as well, and I think that is perhaps something I've not really articulated before, but it's. It's great I can mobilize, we can get everyone moving forward towards the outcome, but it's well, I need you to commit to it, I need everyone to commit to that tackle and and go full, full force, not go halfway.
Speaker 2:We all need to be in there and I like that nuance that you've added in there yeah, and I think that is that it is a commitment, but it's as simple as like what do you bring to it too? So I think there's one side you want people to be mobilized, but as a, a manager or a leader within a team or when, like a sports, as a team captain. You know, I think the manager and the captain from a rugby team are very different jobs. Manager has to set the strategy, put the configuration of people, and then the captain's job isn't to be the star player on the field, but it's how do you mobilize these people to get behind this plan? How do you work with the team? How do you intrinsically figure out? How do you motivate the people around you? How do you learn? How do you know how to work with everybody and it's a lot of those things is the soft skills that no one really tells you about.
Speaker 2:It's like how do you know when someone's having an off day, instead of saying, oh, they're rubbish or they're this, how do you kind of bring them back up? Someone comes back from an injury, someone you just come back and be back to back losses. How do you not let the team fall under? How do you bring them back up? How do you get them to stay committed? How do you get in the state focus and have that same drive?
Speaker 2:And there's so much nuance to that, and I think that that's what's interesting about sports, but also about business. If you have a lot of failures in business, or you you don't win certain pitches or it doesn't go your certain way, how do you keep the team mobilized and work in that? It's not necessarily reflection entirely on their skills, but they might need to reconfigure a few things to get to that objective, and it's about having this process of reflection, learning, but also letting people see the value that they bring to the team and making people feel empowered as a player individually, but then as a collective, but it's it's a bit of work that everyone needs to play into that, and I think it's about having key people in key roles that understand nuances of performance, and I think that's what's so fascinating and I think you could talk about them interchangeably. You could chat about rugby. If you removed the content you spoke about performance.
Speaker 1:You could apply to any sport, any organization, because it's all the same and what's interesting is, you know, here we talk a lot about the diversity that well, actually, here we're talking about bringing in diversity specifically, I suppose we talk about the lgbt community but what we're really saying is, well, it is diversity full stop, be it on a rugby field, be it on in the corporate setting or in a business setting as well. Now, that's interesting, then, because some of the backgrounds you talk about the roles that everyone has, be they LGBT view, perhaps the experience you have coming from Ireland, coming into London and taking a role in that team, be it on the field, or at least how you articulate what you're doing off the field, it comes down to that society. For when you're really starting to think about operating in a rugby environment and then in a corporate team environment, to what extent do you think background class society also has an impact in that sort of transformation as well?
Speaker 2:It's really interesting because I think in business as well, it comes in around cult building, a good culture and place in a diverse culture.
Speaker 2:And when you look at diversity, you're bringing together, as you said, people from all different walks of life, society, class, background and I think I touched on earlier with, like these rugby clubs. You've got people coming and joining these clubs for different reasons and you're bringing them together and so it comes to all looking at kind of privilege as well. But I think it is massive because, like when I joined like certain rugby clubs, I come from a working class background in kind of rural Ireland and you're joining some clubs and you have your own kind of hangups about different things. You have your own experiences of how you've been treated in the past. It applies the lens of how you see the world. Depending on where you're raised, how you're raised, your life experience will be very different. So I read a really good, interesting article there a week, a couple of weeks ago about intersectionality, about within lgbtq plus community, that you know some that they were saying that sometimes a person of color.
Speaker 1:Who's?
Speaker 2:lgbtq may face discrimination within their own community with a people of colour for being gay, and then they might face racism in the LGBT community for being a person of colour. So it's things like that. You've got that intersectionality to deal with and then you have certain layers on top of that. So you bring all that into the club. So everyone comes into different walks of life, will have different experiences and I think unless someone's very lucky, they'll have faced some form of discrimination in their life and you bring all that with you. All that kind of comes in to play when you're and how you play. And work of other people comes in.
Speaker 2:And I think, too, there was an interesting piece of work that was done in my company before about where we seen ourselves on our own privileges and who are the people we surround ourselves with and our kind of our closest people in our lives, and we'd write down what class they were, where they were from in this year and people that we didn't like and we had to start seeing. Did we notice any trends? And I noticed that a lot of my closest friends are all from working class backgrounds who work themselves up and stuff, and the people that I feel more uncomfortable around were people from more privileged backgrounds. This is a very personal thing that I'm saying, but it's that kind of lens too. Is that? Did I? Do I have a bias you can feel from certain other backgrounds and you bring all that with you in the clubs into business, and a lot of the time it's just about awareness. It's awareness of your own biases, whether they're positive or negative. Biases can work both ways.
Speaker 1:You can have a positive or negative bias and how does that play into and does that affect your ability or your judgment, not only in business but in in team sports, and a lot of the time it's about asking the questions and having that awareness yes, it is, because what's actually fascinating there and again got me thinking is you think about, broadly speaking, about career transition, and you know we're having just an awesome conversation anyway, but you think about those who are listening from a career transition perspective and I love that exercise that you've just articulated there.
Speaker 1:Often I work on what's your network and who do you connect with, but in some respects what you're doing is drawing that differently and teasing out aspects of your network that might give clues as to the network outside of sport that you want to be in when you move into business, where they're, from their background level of, say, well, I feel safe in this environment and this is what it looks like. Okay, can I find another environment like it? And what's interesting is I remember I spoke with a football player, a soccer player, on here and he said one of the biggest challenges he faced when leaving the professional football environment is he spent his life around 18 men, every day, training with 18 men. That was his world, so it was more of a challenge for him to transition out of that and say, well, I'm no longer with 18 men, probably macho men and now what's this new environment like? To what extent does that give clues as to my level of comfort and ease to transition from one to the other?
Speaker 2:and I think, too, it comes down to what culture you're used to operating in. And if you go into a different culture that's maybe more mixed or people that are not as much men, and you've got like mixed offices and people from all backgrounds and more females, how do you behave in that? And you may. What's normalized in one culture might not be normal in another, and then you want to bring it's quite. That then itself is a transition and it's about being aware of yourself and how you operate and what environments you operate, kind of the best and stuff. So it's really it's a very fascinating point. But I think in that as well, it's that kind of piece about what environments are you comfortable in, why are you comfortable in those environments, and then, what are you uncomfortable in and why are you uncomfortable in those environments? And it doesn't mean that it's not an environment you should go into. It's about saying, well, why am I uncomfortable there? What is the issue and how can I? Is there something I can overcome? And it comes down to that hesitation piece. It's like saying, well, if you go in, you're hesitant, you'll never immerse yourself in that environment. Sometimes you've got to just go for it, go in and, yeah, you might make mistakes, it might be some awkward situations, but as long as you go through it and your intention is right and that's important.
Speaker 2:And it's about thinking about the objective. So, if you're going into an environment or a situation that's uncomfortable or a transition that's not going to be as smooth, if you know what the goal or the objective is and what you're striving towards, that's the focus and you go through all that awkwardness because sometimes there's no really way around it you're going to have to go through situations that are going to be tough. So, whether it's in business, you know, trying to get a sell or a promotion or transition to the next level of your career, you're going to have to do things that are going to be tough to get to that point. But you've got to think about the objective and not the tough things. It's like a tackle. If I go back to the tackling scenario, if I run into the tackle, I'm thinking about getting the man down and getting the ball off him or something to clear. That's what you're working towards, so you can get the tries, you can win the game. You're not just saying I just want to tackle this man now for the crack. You're not just saying I just want to tackle this man now for the crack. You're thinking like I'm trying to tackle him to. You know, as simple as that is like.
Speaker 2:Focusing on the objective is so, so key and that actually makes these transitions easier and better. But I think coming back and reflecting on yourself and your own behavior is key. You need to and this sounds very like Instagrammable, but if you don't know, know yourself, it's very hard to know how to behave in a situation if you don't really reflect on yourself and be honest with yourself and say could I've done this better? What am I not doing well, what can I do better? You know it's very easy to blame everybody else around you, but sometimes it's looking and worried and what you can do, and that can actually make you feel very empowered because it gives you a sense of control that's the bit that we're going to cut up and put on instagram, but I think it is.
Speaker 1:But you, you are right, and it is that moment of reflection and I think for those listening, it really is one of the key parts. There is awareness, so what you've described there is building awareness of the environments where you're comfortable. When you don't feel comfortable and understand why, just observe, and that can help with that transition, that career transition that individuals are going through now. Look like you said we could. I could pick your brains forever on this because I just think you know it is super fascinating. I know you've probably given loads of nuggets as we've gone through this for individuals who are transitioning from careers and you know some of those tangible pieces really fascinating how you're mixing the two as well, or bringing one from the other to support the other. I really like that. I'm curious for individuals who want to find a more inclusive club in the igr network where would they go?
Speaker 2:I would say the first thing you do is, like go to the IGR website so inclusive gay rugby. If you put that into google or you go into instagram, which is as IGR clubhouse, if you go on the website mainly, you'll be able to see all the clubs that are represented in the network and where they're based. So I think that's a really important one as well. But even if you put like something as simple as a Google search, like most larger kind of cities or urban areas, whether it's in America, europe, like Australia, will have some form of an IGOR club or an IGOR affiliation, which is amazing, which I think is good. So if you are looking to join, that first thing is go on these websites and then link in and connect with people and send messages, and sometimes it's easier by looking it up and reaching out to people in the network or players. If you don't want to reach out to the clubs, you can reach out to a player or say, well, this person seems like they're not going to bite, so you can just message them and say, listen, I'm looking to get into sports, I'm looking to move into this, I'm looking to transition into this type of sport, or I've not played rugby for a few years. I want to get back in, and not as a formal way. Can I do this? And it's that way. It's that straightforward and simple.
Speaker 2:But I think for anyone who's even interested in seeing what the IGR do, if you go on and look at the website and the various tournaments that happen across the world and teams, that's probably the best place to start and from then they'll be able to see how to get in contact with all or any of the teams.
Speaker 2:And for anyone, obviously, who is listening and maybe is based around Europe or based in London or the UK, you've got the Kings Cross Steelers in London, you've got the London Stags, which are two IGR-inclusive teams in London alone, and in Ireland. You've got the Cork Hellhounds, which is in Cork, the Dublin Emerald Warriors in Dublin, and you've got teams in Australia've got Melbourne Chargers, like I could list off reams of teams. Best place to start is IGR clubhouse or the IGR kind of website and it just it's just a google search away. And you know and for me that's where I went and I literally knew about the teams in Dublin stuck it in the name of the team into google off the back of a pride event and the rest is kind of history then.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. David, listen. I've got to say thank you very much for sharing your story, sharing your perspective, certainly educating me on inclusive gay rugby, how to access it as well. I think it's absolutely brilliant. So thank you very much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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