2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
132: Evan Bush and Julian Gonzalez on Reinventing Careers After Sports
What happens when your career in sports—or any field you’ve poured your soul into—comes to an end? How do you prepare for life after the spotlight? In this episode, we’re exploring these pivotal questions with Evan Bush, a 16-year Major League Soccer veteran and one of the league’s oldest active players, and Julian Gonzalez, a former rising star in Colombian football turned sports psychologist. Together, they share real-life stories, valuable insights, and practical advice for navigating life’s big transitions.
💡 What You’ll Learn:
- Why planning ahead matters: Evan explains how thinking about life beyond the game boosts performance today and alleviates the stress of retirement.
- Redefining identity: Learn how athletes can challenge the narrative that their talents begin and end on the pitch, breaking free from limiting labels to embrace their full potential.
- Embracing professionalism: Discover why maintaining professionalism and nurturing relationships is crucial, because, as Evan notes, "In sport, as in life, bridges burned are opportunities lost."
- Julian’s transformative journey: Julian shares the emotional weight of stepping away from football too soon and how that experience shaped his work supporting athletes through life-changing decisions.
- Different paths, same challenges: We explore how transitions differ between America’s college sports system and Colombia’s professional pipeline, offering universal truths applicable to any career path.
🌟 Why This Episode Matters:
This isn’t just for athletes—it’s for anyone facing a career crossroads or major life change. From Evan’s strategies for preparing ahead to Julian’s heartfelt reflections, their stories offer lessons on resilience, adaptability, and planning for what’s next.
🎧 Key Takeaways:
- Why athletes must think about transitions before retirement feels imminent.
- The power of having a plan to boost performance and ease uncertainty.
- The importance of maintaining professionalism and nurturing relationships for future opportunities.
- How to break free from limiting labels and embrace your full potential.
- Universal truths about life transitions that apply to everyone, athlete or not.
🎧 Tune In Now:
This episode dives deep into the emotional and practical sides of career transitions, offering inspiration and actionable insights for anyone facing uncertainty about their next step. Whether you’re an athlete preparing for retirement or someone considering a big career pivot, Evan and Julian’s stories will leave you feeling empowered and ready to take action.
Let’s Connect:
Are you looking for career clarity for your next step? For more information or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io.
If you loved this episode, share it with someone who needs to hear these lessons. Don’t forget to subscribe for more inspiring conversations.
Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Now, this week is a bit different. I've got two guests getting a bit selfish. I've got Evan Bush, who is currently one of the goalkeepers at Columbus Crew playing in Major League Soccer over in the US, and I've got Julian Gonzalez, a former professional football player in Columbia, who is now working in sports psychology. They're going to join me and in this conversation, what we really talk about is that whole idea of career transition and, essentially, how do you get best prepared? What are the steps you can take? What are the types of courses and paths that you can follow that can help you put yourself in the best position to ignite your second wind after your sporting career? Evan Julian, welcome to the Second Wind Academy podcast. Great to have you joining me today. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you, julian. Welcome to the Second Wind Academy podcast. Great to have you joining me today. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you, ryan, for inviting us.
Speaker 1:Yeah and listen. What's interesting about today's session is that it's a slightly different format where typically I will sit down with one individual and, you know, work through their perspective of preparing for a career change. Today I feel very privileged, perhaps a little bit under pressure, where today we're going to sort of navigate three of us really having what should be quite a rich conversation based on our perspectives, in and around the game of football, but then also in sport more broadly. Now there's going to be several people who are going to be listening to this, who are going to be really keen for us to get started. But before we really kick off, I'd just love to ask you to give us a little bit of an introduction about who you are and actually what's literally going on in your day today. Julian, perhaps we start with yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, my name is Julian Gonzalez. I'm a Colombian guy and I used to be a professional footballer. Like a long time ago, like almost 20 years ago, I quit sport and nowadays I work as a sports psychologist, mostly as a mental performance coach, and I deal with athletes in different transitions periods, going from amateur to elite sports and then to elite to termination, and yeah, that's basically what I'm doing now. I'm, uh, working with some football teams here in my region in Bogota, colombia, and just trying to get into some opportunities abroad, and that's why that's the reason I just came across with Evan, so we can discuss about this later and that's pretty much what I'm doing now. Brilliant.
Speaker 1:Julian, thanks very much. That's a great intro. Funny how you say playing football ages ago, like 20 years ago, and I'm thinking, yeah, oh, hold on, that's the same as me. Well, what's going on? Trust me, it was only last year. It was only last year. Okay, let's bring a bit of relative youth into the game.
Speaker 3:Evan, let's have a chat. Yeah, that's the first time I've been called youthful in a while, which is nice. Yeah, so I'm 38 years old which is why I find it funny and I'm still playing professionally in Major League Soccer with Columbus Crew and so I'm clearly the oldest person on my team and one of the oldest guys in the league. So I get joked about quite often in the locker room about the gray in my hair and my pop culture references that don't exactly hit the younger guys anymore. But yeah, that's what I've been doing.
Speaker 3:I just finished up year 16 as a professional and when talking about transition, we'll get into it a little bit more, but it's something that I've certainly thought about the last five or six years and have prepared for in many ways. So, along with my role as a player with Columbus Crew, I've had a professional development role and we'll talk a little bit more about what that entails, but it's been part of my role here with the Columbus Crew now for the last three years and, moving forward, it looks like I'll probably play another year, next year. They just can't get rid of me apparently so well, that's where we're at now and you know, physically, mentally, all things are feeling pretty good. So that's kind of where we're at, but you know, still in transition mode, at some point you're coming in the near future.
Speaker 1:Evan, thanks for that. It is, you know, one. It's absolutely fantastic that, and congratulations for having so far what is a 16-year career, I think, across any sport or discipline, in fact, I can say even outside of sport. Being within that profession for 16 years shows a great amount of dedication, skill and, in sport, a great amount of talent as well. So congrats on that. And it's not even over yet. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, now, one of the bits that you mentioned was a professional development role at the club. Can you just explain a little bit more about what that means and who it's for?
Speaker 3:yeah. So it can mean a lot of things really and it's um, major league soccer has a lot of mechanisms in there and the way that they build rosters with salary cap, roster designations, all these different things and a lot of them are kind of weird and unique and you don't see it in many of the leagues around the world, although it seems like a lot in many of the leagues around the world, although it seems like a lot of a lot of leagues around the world are starting to, you know, toy with having a salary cap of in in some regards. So maybe major league soccer is on to something there. But this professional development role is available to one player per team in every team across the league. So I wasn't even aware of it until three years ago when I was negotiating a new contract when my previous one had come up, and what this allows the team to do is to supplement your income outside of the salary cap paid for directed by the club up to a certain amount. So it worked out in many ways on both sides for the club and myself to to take on this role. Uh, so getting paid my salary by the league and then getting paid an additional salary by the club.
Speaker 3:Uh, for me, I saw it as as beneficial in multiple ways. Obviously, the financial piece was saw it as as beneficial in multiple ways. Obviously, the the financial piece was, was important and is important. But I also wanted to ingrain myself into the culture of the club in a way that I wasn't necessarily going to be able to do as just a player, um, and I wanted to continue to learn. So when that transitional period of post playing came came about, I had something on my resume. So the club, I think, saw just as a salary cap workaround, to be close with you, and actually they put it down as a player coach, which I think is what a lot of players decide to try to do when they're done playing.
Speaker 3:But for me it was.
Speaker 3:I have some coaching badges and it's not something that I've totally distanced myself from or neglect, you know, potentially doing one day, but my ultimate ambition is to be in the front office and on a track to be a general manager in this league.
Speaker 3:So, with that in mind, I wanted to make sure that I was doing the right things in order to take those steps. So a lot of the stuff that I've been doing, specifically in the last, I'd say, six months, because I had some injuries this year, so I had a little bit of extra time in and around the facility. I spent a lot of time with our data analytics team, with our player personnel director, with our scouting department, um, all the different pieces that work within the front office underneath the general manager and the technical director, uh. So that gave me a lot of insight into what, uh what goes on in the club, how they they go about utilizing the different pieces of the, the organization, the processes in which they they use, how they communicate with each other, the software and all those things has been very beneficial to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's really important yeah, exactly yeah, um, and that's what I wanted, because I'm not at a point in my career where I know specifically what it is that I want to do or what I'm good at, even in that department, those departments, right. So, um, I'm finding you, finding certain things I'm drawn more to, but I like having a broad idea of what's going on, because if I do one day want to be a leader of a club, then I need to have an understanding of all the different departments, as opposed to just one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned it because it actually sounds like a really good idea, quite simply, and the way they put it into practice for some clubs sounds like it may have been a bit of a fudge just to try and get around things, but for yourself it is well, actually a real good, actionable application on learning a lot more about the operations of a I I guess a yeah football club, but in many respects, some of the the background of what takes place, what happens off camera, off field. How have you found getting that balance between that training and determination that you need to be a player, whilst also getting this broad overview?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll be honest with you, I did my.
Speaker 3:It was about 2018 or 2019 when I started really taking into consideration what my post-playing career would look like and started thinking about that, and I started doing my master's in business administration, and so I was doing that online, and what I found out at that time was the more that I was able to put effort and energy and focus into other areas outside of the field, the better my performance on the field became.
Speaker 3:Maybe I wasn't stressing out as much, maybe I wasn't as anxious in the off moments thinking about the game or the training session you know from the day or whatever it was, but I felt much more calm and clear in what I was doing on the field. And so now, as this role had come open, I feel the same thing, more ambitious, going on the field, because I know all the work now that's going on behind the scenes, and that's something that I don't think a lot of players know or appreciate or, frankly, really care about, which I understand. Also, they're not part of that and maybe they don't ever want to be part of it. Maybe they're just players and that's fine, but for me, I find that to be very motivating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so interesting to hear that the more that you focus or the more that you open yourself up to what's going on around the game, it's actually helped you focus to become a better player and that sort of distraction. I mean, I've heard it before and, like you said, I've heard the other side as well and maybe we'll sort of certainly loop back into that because I'm interested, julian, for yourself as a player in, as you said, coming up through Colombia decades ago Still feels like yesterday. What was that like for you? So, when we talk about having to come through the game in Colombia is, to what extent are your aspirations? This is a full-time game where I'm sorting, you know, financially, I'm going to be set and made for life versus. This is very much a pastime.
Speaker 2:For me it's a different story because, like 20 years ago, football was another, that was another sport, I would say. Because I'm just listening to Evan's experience, it's so much different because he has been into the game for a lot of time. I was just part of the sport for four or five years and I was 23, 34 when I got retired, really really quick. So at that time I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. I decided to be in the psychology part, just to you know, to be engaged in some kind of activity that I can apply to football after.
Speaker 2:I'm really privileged to have been part of the sport because it opened so many doors to me, right, because I'm really kind of, I have like a unique curriculum in the way that I'm able to talk about sports, talking about football and with on-field experiences and you can combine with the academic background, which is something that when you quit earlier it's easier to do, right, because you have a lot of time to develop your skills, right. So in a way it's a different story. But you know, I can say that for me transition was very hard but I was younger, right. So nowadays for me it's easier to you know, to handle with situation now. So because one of the things where we can discuss later is I don't have this athletic identity that some of the players have, some of the footballers, some more athletes have, so it's difficult to take out the shirt of an athlete, to be like a people in an office or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you talk about leaving, I guess, the game as a player at the age of 24. What if you look back at that time? What was it that made you decide to do that? I'm curious as to what were your options.
Speaker 2:At that time I I felt that I wasn't lucky. I wasn't lucky enough to continue in sports because I was part of the three different teams in the first division in Colombia two teams in the capital city here where I'm living now. But I felt that I wasn't progressing financially and on my game, on my skills. Rather, I was just. I think I was going backwards and in a way, I didn't understand that this is a process. Maybe Evan understood more about this, so now he's able to tell us that he has been in the sport for 60 years. But I didn't understand that to be better at the game, you have to wait, you have to be resilient, you have to wait, you have to be patient. That was not my case.
Speaker 2:So at that time, when I was 24, it was like a decision that it was really difficult to make. I said to my father you know, and I have a contract that was the most unique experience, because not a lot of footballers say goodbye to sports when they have contracts. I have a contract, but I left the city. I said I don't want to play anymore and it was just something that it happens all of a sudden. And my father said OK, I'm going to support you and then I say goodbye to the sport. So that was my experience overall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds like quite a tough experience. I'm going to definitely look back in. I'm interested from Evan have you, during your career, had a moment where you felt, oh gosh, this is it.
Speaker 3:I'm done yeah many times. Actually. It's funny Listen, julian, sorry. The start of my career was not that I'm done yeah Many times, actually it's. It's funny listening to Julian's story. It's, uh, the start of my career was not that much different.
Speaker 3:I I was think I was just fortunate enough to. I grew up in a family where, um, you know, I went to college. I did the normal university route that a lot of American soccer players did, especially back at that time coming into major league soccer. Um, and because at that time coming into Major League Soccer, and because of that, because of scholarships and my family's ability to help along the way, I had no student loans. I didn't have any real responsibility coming out of college. So I was able to give it a real go where people maybe not in the same situation as I was financially or you know, you know had more responsibility or whatever it was, maybe they wouldn't have been able to do that. So my first couple years I played in the second division in the in the US for a team in Cleveland and then a team in Baltimore. The following year, both of those teams folded financially after the seasons that I played with them. So I was thinking that maybe I was the curse and maybe what was?
Speaker 1:what was your set? I was going to say how much were they paying you, evan.
Speaker 3:Wasn't me, I wasn't the problem. Yeah, so then the third year I made a conscious decision that I would go to Montreal who was still in the second division at the time and try out for their team after they invited me up for a trial in the winter with the intention of joining or staying with them for when they went up to MLS the following season as an expansion. So I made the team there and stayed there for 10 years and it doesn't really work out that way. The last thing my fiance and now wife said to me when I went up to to go on trial up in Montreal was I want you to play anywhere except for Montreal. And when I went to Montreal and we got married and it worked out really well, but it it kind of it put her life into a little bit. Not a I was going to say tails, but that would have been a terrible, terrible word, cause it wasn't a tail, it flipped her, or flipped her world upside down, because she just graduated college, she had a degree in dietetics and, moving to Quebec, where the first language is French, she had to take any, any licensing tests French, which she didn't speak, just French. She had to take any licensing test in French, which she didn't speak. So it was a selfish move in many ways on my part to go there.
Speaker 3:But every move that I've made during my time as a player I'd say after the last two years, when we were married and had a family was with my family in mind. And so when I went to Montreal and my first goal was to make the MLS team, my next goal was okay, if within two years I'm not the starting goalkeeper, then I need to move on and make a decision. I can't, I can't just live this nomadic life for, you know, another six, seven years without having, like financial gain or real reason to be doing right. Um, and when I made that, made that goal and that decision, I became a starter by the time that I said it, uh, which which gave me the ability then to to sign more contracts that, you know, put our family in a good position. Um, so, yeah, that's that's kind of. That's kind of the process that I went through. There's, there's always been decisions and during those times to kind of go back to your initial question I have had moments during my playing days, whether it was early in my career or later in my career, especially when my time in Montreal came to an end and my career was at that point where I'd lost my starting job.
Speaker 3:I started hitting an age where teams are looking for younger players at every position, goalkeeper included. So I didn't know what my future looked like. And that's when I wanted to make that transition, to get back closer to Ohio, which is where I'm from, always thinking that maybe that was going to be the last season that I played. And now here I am in year number four in Ohio, thinking over the last four or five years that, yeah, I'll probably go into this last year, thinking this is my last year to play and if it is, I'll be at peace with it, because that's where I'm at in my life now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating how you talk about you being selfish or at least making a selfish decision to go up for your career. But then the decisions you've made have taken into account, I guess, over time, more and more people, as your family has grown, but a certain pretty family has grown. How do you think it has changed your decisions or at least altered the options that you had?
Speaker 3:Oh, it absolutely has. And when? My time in Montreal? Well, let's rewind a little bit, actually In 2018, I had a good season in my last year of my contract and I was renegotiating for my next contract, which I knew immediately I was going to have a good amount of leverage, and the decision was do I stay in Montreal, where we're comfortable I've been there for a long time, the club likes who I am as a person, as a player, all these things we're very comfortable in the community or do we look to go elsewhere, get back closer to Ohio, get into the States and a lot of different variables at play?
Speaker 3:We ultimately decided to stay in Montreal, but then, a year and a half later, was when I'd lost my starting job and all these decisions had to be made again. So at that point it was do I want to be selfish again in regards to chasing different places where I can continue to be a starter because there was options to do so, or do I want to think about what that next phase of my life is going to be like with my family and try to set that phase up? And I knew that phase looked exactly like what it is that I'm going through now, where I haven't been a starter for the last number of years, since I've been in Columbus, but I'm setting the stepping stones for what that next phase looks like, while getting closer to my family. The one thing that really struck me about when we made the decision to move to Columbus as opposed to stay in Montreal because the club in Montreal had actually said that I could see my contract out and they wouldn't trade me, which is unusual in Major League Soccer because of the way that the league is set up.
Speaker 3:But we told our oldest daughter that said, yeah, this is great, we have the opportunity to move back closer to home. My oldest daughter all three of my kids were born in Montreal. My oldest daughter says that's not my home. That stuck with me quite a bit. She was seven at the time, so she understood a little bit what was going on. I'm like, wow, that's actually. I get it because there's more than my life. This is your life too. I can't make decisions based necessarily on you wanting to stay at seven years old in a place, but I take it out, you know.
Speaker 1:So that was, uh, it was a heavy decision based, you know, just on those types of emotions yeah, you know, it's funny I hear you say that and it does make me think of so, my, my boys, my. So my wife and I, both british, my sons are born between Sydney, australia, and Hong Kong, and so, as we were looking a while back, okay, where do we move next? As far as the the boys were concerned, as they were talking, certainly the elder two, um, yeah, they didn't. They almost didn't know where home was as such. Was it going back in England? Was it sort of Hong Kong, or was it being in Australia? So it's quite I can imagine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a bit of a shock at times where it's like, oh, you don't see yourself exactly the same as I do. You've got this different sort of global identity instead. Yeah, you know, julian, you mentioned there about identity early on and athletic identity. So just you know, know, now, when we think about this global identity of our children, uh, with, so when you left the game and you say you left at 24, right, and so then you, you, I'm guessing you saw yourself as a footballer. So when you left at 24, was what was your intention? Was it to go, right, I'm going from football and I'm getting in the game and I'm staying in the game, or was it somewhere else?
Speaker 2:No, it was. To be honest, it was like a long journey because I mean, I was 24 years old, just four years just playing football, training every day, being with my friends. Then it was like a a a grief moment, right. So you have to, you have to start new lives. As a student in a university in in Colombia is so different than in United States because when you, when you are in the university, you don't have this kind of a football side where you can also play for a team, so you have to. Basically you have to leave the sports forever, like professionally or in a really competitive level. So for me it was like a long journey.
Speaker 2:I didn't expect to be in the sports quickly. I was just trying to study, trying to follow my. You know what my parents were asking me to, because both of my parents were teachers, so it's difficult for them to see me professionally developing in my career. I started my journey. I went to the university. When I finished the university, I didn't want to be in the country, so I left. I went to London and I had the privilege to speak English. So it's funny, when you thought about your time when you were younger, that if someone will ask me you will be able to talk to people in different countries in different languages. That will be a dream for me. But now I'm just something that I just did like a baby steps.
Speaker 2:I'm 43 now, 43 years old now, and I've been just acquiring different skills on baby steps, as I said Right. So for me it was not a direct goal, but you know, by the time I got I don't know 31, 32, I decided to be competing in sports. So I studied a master in University of Lund, university of Leipzig in Germany and Sweden prospectively, and then I decided that, okay, I would like to be in the sports because I have this football experience and I want to bring this to the table and, based on that, I always find jobs, I always find people to work with. This is a privilege and this is thanks to football and it's something that maybe you and Evan have the same experience, because it's something that is like I would say it's like the biggest asset that you have when you were an athlete, that you can relate your experience to any other kind of work sector in a way.
Speaker 1:There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be at retirement, injury or the need to juggle dual careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy, so I want to help those around me find their career. Second wind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions, and I know what you mean.
Speaker 1:From that perspective, I always describe sport being a passport a passport to the world, to different cultures and to almost any conversation, because you're able to get on the level with individuals. I know, as I've traveled the world and moved to a new city, I can find 10 other friends who want to watch football just by saying, yeah, let's play a game and boom. It doesn't matter what language we're speaking. The language of football is global. There's some corny line in there somewhere, so it sounds like when you then left football of sorts. When you went into study you didn't have this clear picture as to boom. This is where I'm going. It was very much a path that you were on and you followed your interest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happens that way, right, and some events can change your life, you know. And you know I was just trying to get where I wanted to go and finally I got into sports psychology and I met a lot of people in Europe and we have common friends with Evan, and so that's why I just encountered Evan in Columbus in March and since that I've been trying to, you know, like Steve Jobs said, like just connecting the dots and try to grow forward. And yeah, for me, sports is one of the biggest experiences I ever had and I'm really happy to be a former footballer and I think it's going to help me in the future, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a friend of mine says, it's at least for life, so it always remains a part of us. So then, evan, it does get me thinking. Then you know for you, you doing your MBA back, your kickstart in that 2018 sounds like it was around the time of either your last time in Montreal, or sort of moving back in Montreal, or sort of moving back. What sort of?
Speaker 3:instigated you thinking, hey, I'm gonna, I should do some study. I think it was knowing that my career at that point had already gone like 10 years. Yeah, probably 10 years. At that point, and while I did some coaching courses and got some coaching badges, there was whenever I left the game. I knew there was going to be a gap in whatever resume.
Speaker 3:And when you're thinking about going into post-playing, you can't just go in and say, yeah, I was a professional athlete for X amount of years, like that's great and a lot of employers like that. Obviously because we bring a specific work ethic and discipline, dedication and all those different things that athletes bring to the table. But what are some actual tangible skills that you can can you bring to the organization, whatever industry that's in? So I knew that for me, if there wasn't something I could do, like an internship, which isn't practical when you're still playing, then what can I do from a, you know, studying perspective?
Speaker 3:And it was about that time in my life where I was very curious about educating myself in many different ways, learning a lot of different things. I went back and forth many times with trying to pick up French and, you know, learning the language, and I got relatively good at it for a while and then, since we moved from Montreal, it's just disappeared pretty rapidly. Yeah, but it was a curiosity thing filling time knowing that I was having kids I had two at the time and then we had a third one since then so, knowing that I'm going to have to provide for my family after I'm done playing and I didn't want to have to take time off I know athletes like to take some time off when they're done playing I like to keep going, I like to just stay on the move. So I don't want that to be the case. I want to be ready to jump in and something right when I'm done.
Speaker 1:What made you pick the NBA rather than?
Speaker 3:something else. I really I've been a player representative, or I was a player representative, for probably 10 years. You know my time in Montreal. I was a player representative the whole time, then my first year or two in Columbus. I've since stepped away from that. I'm still involved in some stuff. When you know our player rep needs, you know, some guidance or advice on certain things, um, but I'm not, I'm not the player representative in columbus anymore, because I thought it would be a little bit of a conflict of interest, doing the role that I have within the club right now and still being a player representative.
Speaker 3:Uh, but during that time as a player representative, specifically in Montreal and going through, I think, like three or four different CBA negotiations and this was before, you know, the COVID stuff with return to play and the CBA negotiations I went into that. I really got an interest in the business of the sport as opposed to just the sport itself. So, understanding how the league was functioning I mentioned it earlier it's a very unique league in the way that it's set up and the rules and the mechanisms that you can utilize. So for me it was. You know.
Speaker 3:I realized at that point that, instead of just going into coaching or being prepared to go into coaching. I wanted to be prepared to have something a little bit more sustainable and I don't know if safe is the right word, but the coaching lifestyle I feel is you're just going back in kind of the same lifestyle as you were as a player, where you could potentially be going one place to the next and with a family. I don't really want that to be the case, so I prefer to go into something with a little bit more um, security and time in terms of how long you're you're at a specific club and all that saying. You know you can get fired within a year as a general manager or sporting director as well, but usually it's a little bit longer than coaching, I'd say yeah, well, you're quite right.
Speaker 1:It probably is less volatile than being in the, the coaching game and I know I've had a couple of people on on the show who you know bring that coaching perspective, which is, um, it is. It is just as volatile, if not more so, because contracts literally do get pulled after three bad games and then the whole team moves. To be honest, it is, you know, a lot of work I do is I speak with executives whose roles, when they're retrenched, when their roles have been made redundant, so I do see an increasing amount of individuals outside of sport having to deal with your job's finished. You now need to move on. It is interesting to hear you articulate that difference between, as a player, you live contract to contract. Indeed, as we're opening up and you're talking about, yeah, I've got one more year in a contract, I would imagine for many people mid to late 30s thinking, geez, I've only got one more year left in this job. They would actually find that quite, they'd be quite anxious about that. You seem quite chilled out, though, evan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know I think I alluded to it earlier I've been at peace with whenever that time comes for a while now and all I can do is control what I can't expect. I don't expect our club or any other club to say yeah, when you're done with your contract, this is going to be waiting for you, and I don't want that. Because I don't want and I had this discussion recently actually with um, with our general manager I don't want, when I'm done playing, to just be handed something or take a, take a job that has no meaning to it, just because I'm a former player and you know it's, it's good, uh, it's goodwill or good marketing or whatever, to to say, oh yeah, we have this former player that we're taking care of. That's not what I want. I want to be prepared for something meaningful and influential, uh, something that I can make a real impact with, uh, and those jobs aren't just handed out. So so you know, for me it's. I'm not, I wouldn't say that I'm anxious about that time coming, but I've prepared for it for the last four or five years and actually I'll open up a little bit here.
Speaker 3:I'd say, three months ago or so I was recovering from a broken arm, which I actually broke twice during this past season. So I did become a little bit more anxious because I didn't have a natural outlet for, for all those things which you know typically would come on the field right and I was driving down to cincinnati for a game, uh, that we were playing it's big rivalry game, and I did become a little bit anxious thinking about these things. I was kind of in my own space you know, when you have family you don't have a lot of time just kind of being your own fake own space and mental space, whatever, uh. So I was kind of overcome with a little bit of own space and mental space, whatever. So I was kind of overcome with a little bit of anxiety and emotion.
Speaker 3:So I connected with I guess you can call it a career transition coach, more of a sports psychologist, which I'm sure both of you are well aware of and we talked about. You know what that transition looks like and what it's looked like for other athletes that he's worked with and stuff like that. And what I've come to realize is that I'm I'm more prepared than pretty much every other person that is in my situation or has been in my situation because of the things I've been doing the last five or six years. So because of that it can alleviate some of my anxiety, without really knowing what the future actually does hold, because I believe and feel that there will be options when, whenever I make that decision, that my days are done playing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's right, and that preparation, as you mentioned there is is really, is really key. I guess I was gonna ask Julian as well. But what is it that actually, evan, I'll come to you. Why do you think, or what is it that you think, has made you want to be so prepared compared to everybody else, that you're in the same changing room, you're in that same environment? What do you think? What do you think the differences?
Speaker 3:are, uh, I honestly think some of it's cultural. Um, I think in our league the American player, and specifically the older college educated player, probably always knew that there was going to be another career outside of sport, whereas I think recently there's been a transition with how quickly they're elevating academy players and second team players and giving contracts to younger players that are foregoing college. They're not necessarily seeing that side of what could potentially happen in the future and I've talked about this with Julian before, where I think that moving forward is going to be a big emphasis. That moving forward is going to be a big emphasis If clubs are really, really concerned about the wellness of their players, especially their homegrown players, their academy players, and there's enough studies that I'm sure you're aware of throughout Europe, specifically in England, of those types of academy players that don't get first-team contracts, or maybe they get one and then all of a sudden they're out of the game and they have no formal education or understanding of what that world looks like to them. So I've always had that, that in the back of my mind, um, and I never really thought that soccer was going to be my career, especially the first four or five years that I was in it.
Speaker 3:I was again man. This is, this is fun that I was in it. I was again man. This is, this is fine, this is. This is a great way to to more than a hobby. I was making enough to where it was more than a hobby, but generally not something that was I thought would be sustainable for you know, years and years, and years, and that all of a sudden, it was because of a couple good years. But then you, the decline comes just as rapidly at some point too right, so you have to be prepared for that. Yeah, so what I mean what you're talking about. But then the decline comes just as rapidly at some point too right, so you have to be prepared for that, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what you're talking about there and, julian, I'm keen to get your perspective as well. But, evan, what you're talking about there is this the shift in professionalism of the game is starting younger. And by starting younger it's missing out those few years where you've got this university education, but actually I'll say university experience or college experience, and during that college experience you're mixing with or you're seeing other people who don't have this sporting path, or at least those who are with you but not as good as you, quite simply on the field. So you know they're going to start moving elsewhere. So skipping that poses a few challenges for individuals well-being, as they sort of transition through the game. I, I get it, I you know, I like the way you frame that. And so, julian, from your perspective, how do you see sort of this, the shift, and perhaps importantly, how does, how do roles like yours help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's different in Colombia because we don't have this factor. That, I think, is very positive that you are in the academic setting and at the same time, you are playing football, like most of the American soccer players or footballers. I think it's very nice because you can get in contact, as you said, to people that are doing different things, so you have another perspective of life. But when you're in Colombia, you go from the amateur to the elite sports and you can drop out of the sport in two years. You have no academic background, so you have to do all of this transition really quickly and most of the time you know from these I wouldn't say Latin American countries.
Speaker 2:It's so hard because normally people, as Evan maybe knows a lot of Latinrican-american guys. They come from really poor areas so it's so difficult for them to get academical background and so they are just in in a nowhere land. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do, so it's really hard for them. So it's, this is, this is the. I think this is the factor of being in a college. That's something that nowadays is. It could be easier because I can see that some players here now they have a online education. It contributes somehow to the players. When they are in the hotel, when they are away, when they have in the evenings, they are able to learn something, to educate themselves. But still there is still room to grow in the Colombian culture. As far as I know, or as far as I'm concerned, we don't have this kind of transition programs. Like you cannot compare with the MLS that they have a lot, I think, a really good supporting system.
Speaker 1:We don't have that here actually that's really interesting because, you know, one of the bits I work across was I work with athletes who, I'll say, go down the Olympic route. So they'll be doing sports that are not necessarily professional, they are certainly full-time, but it doesn't mean they're getting that, that, that paid amount, but they will still have those common issues around identity and trying to let go of who they are, to move into sort of what's what's next. I'm curious, you know, you know, from your perspective, julian, when you're working with individuals who have this athletic identity, how do you help them to, I guess, shift or see themselves as more than just that athlete or that player?
Speaker 2:we normally. We normally as a, as an advisors, we use this kind of model where you have this pre-contemplation contemplation and then you realize that you have to do something. And I advise young athletes given to start working on transition, to retiring since a very early age, like 24, 25, because you never know right, you never know right, you never know when you're going to have to retire. So sometimes you start with just informal conversations in the dressing room. So what are your skills? What would you like to do after sports? What are your interests?
Speaker 2:This is very good for them because they can reflect. They don't have to come up with a solution in the first meeting, but then maybe next year you can talk more about this and you go to the contemplation and then there is a moment that they have to start studying, right. So normally they want to become coaches, they want to become physical trainers or something like that. But this is a good start that you just start talking about this, because this is something that it appears to be something that is dangerous to talk, because they think that the more you talk about this, the closer is going to be your retirement. This is like a really something that they think, but I think this is the first strategy that I come across with players and it is interesting, that identity starting early without impacting your playing performance.
Speaker 1:I guess, evan, when you think about it, then when you think about how you see yourself today and how you're going to see yourself, I'll say in 18 months, what do you think about that? What do you think might be challenging for you at that moment?
Speaker 3:I think, certainly the loss of identity, and I'm not even necessarily scared of that. In many ways, I'm actually kind of excited for that, because it's often where you go to a gathering or a party or whatever it might be, and the first thing that somebody asks you is so, what do you do? Sorry, hold on, brooklyn, please stop. Can you please go over? I'll be over there soon, okay. Well, yeah, the first thing that somebody asks you is what do you do? And to me, that question is always like well, they're going to only want to talk about what I do now, because what I do as an athlete is unique and interesting, right, and I love that. But at the same time, I don't want my whole being to be wrapped up in what I do, because then you lose sight of who you are as a person.
Speaker 3:People don't ask those types of questions anymore. They don't ask about your family anymore. They ask about your sport, your teammates, your season and all these things that you try to get away from in many ways, in whatever industry you're in. You don't want to talk about your work all the time, right? You want to talk about other passions that you have or learn about the other person you're talking to and in many ways when you're, when you're in a group, I've become almost not insecure, but it's. It feels like you're hogging the conversation because more people are interested in what you do as a profession than maybe an accountant or an engineer at the same group of people talking, right. So I'm kind of looking forward to that, to be quite honest with you at some point. Yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah, but, like you say, that's kind of where.
Speaker 1:I'm at, yeah, but like you say, you kind of feel ready, and I know there are others. One of the challenges you may well face is people will keep pulling back to be like hey, you're kind of tall, you should play sport here we go. Okay, all right, and that will keep coming back in.
Speaker 3:I'm sure the one other fear and I guess I could have answered this for many other questions too is why I prepared so much. I think once you tell somebody you're an athlete, that comes with a preconceived notion or a perception from other people that you're not as intelligent or as prepared for a high-level conversation as maybe somebody else who wasn't, you get that identity as a jock. That is stereotypical and it's unfair in many ways, and I try to avoid that because I don't want people to believe that that is the epitome of who I am.
Speaker 1:It's got me thinking. Now. This is going to keep going in my head long after this conversation, I'm sure. But yeah, I guess you're quite right. There's that assumption that people are making because of your profession. We get that as athletes, we get it as all sorts of things. If someone says I'm an accountant or I'm an actuary or something like that, you start to assume what they must be like, right. So hence, what are the implications of that as an athlete? Often, it could be at least negative. In this regard, yeah Well, look, listen, guys, I've definitely kept you for long enough and I've really enjoyed this conversation. I suppose what I'm interested in now is and maybe start with yourself, julian, when someone's asking you for that guidance on, you know, maybe you know how do I best prepare for that, not just the athletic transition, but that transition to that life after the game. What types of guidance or steps do you suggest that they do?
Speaker 2:Well, as I mentioned before, the first thing is just to reflect on that like to take time out of the sport to know what to do, to start like a plan right Based on, not like in the goals you want to have, you want to pursue, but also in the values that you want to get into your life. So what kind of things you want to get into your life after sports. So what would you like to be if you would like to be, any career you would like to pursue? That's something that, of course, definitely you have to understand what are your best skills, and it's something that you can do, as Evan was mentioning. Then, when you have some time, like five, six, seven years, you have time to reflect what are your best skills in sports or out of sports. If you are really good, you're really good at talking to people. If you're really good I don't know at numbers. If you're really good at training, I don't know at numbers if you're really good at training and understanding football, for example. So this is the best way to understand where to bring your energy after. So I think that's very important.
Speaker 2:Then the guidance I do usually is just to help the athletes to find the best, I don't know online educational platforms, because I think that's the method of education that fits the most with athletes that are active.
Speaker 2:And something that I do and I usually did in the past it was talking about financial issues and it's really good, because when you go to this with some experts once I remember that we planned like a workshop with an active player, a really famous player in Colombia, and he was preparing a workshop with me and he presented to the players and it was really nice because some of the players just realized that the finance war is very important to understand, because sometimes they're going to get a lot of money, but sometimes they just have enough money to live for three, four years after sports.
Speaker 2:So they need to realize where to invest, where to yeah, if you're going to buy houses, if you're going to be a reactor, if you're going to be just putting some money in the bank, whatever you want to have. And, yeah, I think this is kind of the steps you have to do in the guidance process. And, yeah, and try to banish the athletic identity. This is very important because this is what the research suggests the more athletic identity you have suggests is, the more athletic identity you have, the more problems you're going to have to adapt to the new life after sports that's great, julian, thanks very much for that.
Speaker 1:And evan, when you think of you know, imagine the young player coming to you and just says hey, do you seem like you seem prepared, or what? What can I do? You know? What guidance do you give to them, evan?
Speaker 3:uh, I agree with a lot of what julian said. Um, I think that the taking the necessary steps to be prepared, uh, whether that's through education or experience or whatever it might be, um, is important. One underrated thing that I feel like I've done really well over the course of my career that's really paid dividends for me, specifically in getting back to Columbus, as opposed to not having that as an avenue was I didn't burn bridges along the path of my career, where I see a lot of young, emotional players and there's passion in this for right. Uh, whether you're on the field, off the field, decisions are made. Um, there's it's very cutthroat industry, obviously, with very few and few jobs available for a lot of people trying to get those jobs. Um, so when decisions are made, a lot of times you don't agree with them and you can react in an emotional way.
Speaker 3:Being able to control my emotions in moments where I didn't agree with certain decisions or situations has come back to benefit me in a way that I never could have predicted.
Speaker 3:The coach that was in Columbus when I first came back here was the coach at my university 15 years prior to that, which is a crazy crossing a pass again, and then the coach that replaced him was an assistant coach in Montreal for a number of years when I was there and he brought his whole staff who was in Montreal, all, and I remember specifically there was there was moments where I was, um, where decisions were made and, um, you know, certain things that happened around the club and I had to sit down with who the coaches now, who was an assistant coach at the time, and really have meaningful conversations about what was going on with myself and the club and the team.
Speaker 3:And I didn't react emotionally in those situations. And if I did, then when he came here it very well could be that my playing career would be over, first and foremost, but then also they wouldn't want me around the club. So, being able to manage those relationships and I'm not saying to kiss anybody's ass along the way, but manage them in a professional and a grown-up, in a grown-up way where you're not just utilizing and using those relationships, but they're you're actually building and nurturing them, because I don't I don't think when I categorize it as using somebody, I I think that comes off terribly, but you're building those relationships in a meaningful way. And the football world is small, as you guys know, and at some point you're going to cross paths with those types of people again and you want to make sure that you left a good mark for that, for those summaries, because what I take from that is building long-lasting relationships.
Speaker 1:So, in the game it's a small world, so focus on building long-lasting relationships, which means don't burn those bridges, you know. Manage your emotions, keep those in check. And then, from julian, what you're talking about is making sure you're then looking beyond your athletic identity, which you know to a same extent is don't act in the moment thinking I'm not playing, I don't like you, but start to think well, not just as an athlete, but think well, who do I want to be as a person and what does that mean? So, and I think then that support of educational work experience along the way to help broaden your perspective becomes really key. So listen, evan, julian, I want to thank you both so much for taking the time out to quite simply share your perspective on the Second Wind Academy podcast. Thank you Absolutely. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Rayo, for your time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank claire from betty book design, nancy from savvy podcast solutions, and cerise from copying content by lola, for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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