2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
134: Mack Horton - Creative Advertising and Embracing Life Beyond Swimming Gold
What happens when an Olympic gold medalist swaps the pool for the office? On this episode, we dive into the incredible journey of former world-class swimmer Mack Horton as he transitions from elite athlete to corporate professional.
Mack opens up about the surreal experience of announcing his retirement from professional swimming and starting his first job at Clemenger BBDO Melbourne the very next day. He shares how he’s adjusted to the challenges of a 9-to-5 routine, all while staying grounded in the discipline that made him a champion.
Here’s what we cover:
- How Mack balances building a new career with the same drive he brought to the pool.
- His shift from competing with others to focusing on personal growth through micro-goals.
- The importance of informal networking, mentorship, and how coffee chats paved his way into advertising.
- The parallels between the mindset of an Olympic athlete and succeeding in a new industry.
- Why moments of uncertainty can become opportunities to find clarity and purpose.
Mack’s story is a powerful reminder that life doesn’t end when one chapter closes—it’s just the start of something new. If you’re an athlete—or anyone—looking for inspiration to navigate career transitions, this episode is for you.
Join us as we unpack Mack’s journey and learn what it takes to thrive after sports.
Are you looking for Career Clarity for your next step, for more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
Links:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackhorton
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mack-h-
Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Mac, look, welcome to the show. It's great to have you join me tonight on the Second Wind Academy podcast to chat about your career transition, indeed your perspective on how you've gone from world-class swimmer to essentially what you're up to today. Thanks for joining us, Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. Brilliant, brilliant and it's actually good to chat. We were talking time zones randomly, like a good Brit and a good Aussie chatting about the time and the weather.
Speaker 2:Classic small talk.
Speaker 1:There you go. Well, that was it, and yeah, well, it's actually good just to for many people that seem to be speaking when we are all over the world, so it's quite good for us to be speaking relatively next door from an Australian perspective, between Sydney and Melbourne.
Speaker 2:It is good, easier for you as well. I'm sure you would do some early mornings and late nights. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do. You know what the good thing is? I tend to be meeting people like yourself interesting stories and very quickly manage to find a nice rhythm and chemistry of just chatting and seeing what's going on. So looking forward to stepping into a bit more with you tonight, yet to be determined if my story is interesting.
Speaker 1:We're going to loop back at the end. That's it. This is a new poll that we're going to put out with this show Rate of level of interest, something like that. Well, look, mac, what I love to do is just kick off with, give us an introduction as to who you are and, essentially, what you're up to today.
Speaker 2:Who am I? I'm Mac Horton. I was an Australian swimmer, were on the Australian swim team for almost a decade, so I'm for 17 years of my life Retired coming up on a year ago now. So I think probably still early days in the scheme of transitioning and currently I'm working at Clemenger BBDO, which is like a creative ad agency here in Melbourne. It's the first job I've ever had. I never had a hospitality job. I never delivered the mail which you know. It's not lost on me how much of a privilege that is to be able to do that. But I don't think that makes the first job in the real world very easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, listen, that's absolutely brilliant. It's great to chat to you so early into what must be an interesting career transition for you, and, as you say, this being your first job. So what was day one like?
Speaker 2:Completely overwhelming job. Um, so after I said so, what was day one like, uh, completely overwhelming. I for some reason the timing worked out. I can't remember if it was by design or if it was like a subconscious thing that I had done just to like cleanly step in from one chapter to the next. But I literally announced my retirement on the sunday and then the mond Monday, went into the office for the first time and I remember actually going in for my first day and I was riding my bike into work and I had to pull over halfway there to do like a radio interview because it was still like overhang from the announcement the day prior and I I was like this is not a normal first day of work, but yeah, it's an overwhelming experience which I don't know 12 months down the track seems weird to say now because you get so used to the office environment, but at the time it's just like a place I'd never really experienced yeah, I well, I bet, but do you know what?
Speaker 1:what's actually a simple question I want to ask now, typically for those 17 years of you being a top level swimmer, wouldn't you well, did you swim pretty much every morning?
Speaker 2:every morning. Uh well, six days a week I was up at 5, 5.30,. Yeah, early starts every single day.
Speaker 2:So, what day were you waking up? What were you doing on that first week? How were those mornings during that first week is going to be a big part of my life and it's, you know, like I'm addicted to exercise. It makes me feel good and I'm also used to setting up my day in exactly the same way, like to the minute. Almost for 17 years I set my day up the same way. So to then go into the you know, the working world, the nine to five, and I'm learning now that you can have rhythm and a routine, but it's it's blown up day one essentially, and you have to figure out what it's going to be. So I kind of like probably just mish-mashed some exercise throughout the week and did a gym and a run and maybe a little swim or something.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it takes some getting used to yeah, I bet well, yeah, well, I'll say I know, as I think back to it, what that rhythm is like, but for being quite so short for you between at least that public announcement and it happening, so before we sort of step into that process, what is well, what's your role right now? So you say it's in a creative ad agency means a lot to me, but what is it? What does your day look like? Or what's your role, should I say?
Speaker 2:So I'm a business manager, which is essentially client services, so the contact point or the conduit between the client and the agency. Any problem, issue, brief tasks that they need solved or pushed through the agency comes to me. I have to figure out how to get it through and then it's essentially project managing that through the agency and getting it back out the other end. So it could be a bit of creative work. Strategy work might be like a production job. All of that sits within us and you have, you know, dozens of jobs, projects on the go at the same time across a couple of clients.
Speaker 1:I can imagine it is. I've only ever been, I guess, in terms of that marketing side, if I put it in that broad sense. I've only ever been on client side. So you know, I'm here and I'm thinking, yeah, first job ever coming straight from athlete limited, I'm going to say swimming, sorry, loads of swimming experience. Limited experience in sort of the agency side. That's a really full-on job to step into. How are you finding it at this moment?
Speaker 2:Well, at this moment it's December, so I'm hanging on to the end of the year. If I'm being completely honest, I think it started out. I started out so hungry. I think I'm an all-in, so it sounds like, when I'm saying I started out so hungry, it sounds like I'm not hungry anymore. I'm still hungry, but it was. You know, being an athlete, I'm kind of like an all-in guy. And so day one I walked in and it was just like give me as much as you can.
Speaker 2:Essentially, it's like you actually have to learn how everything operates and runs before you get to that point. So it was a gradual build, probably, I reckon, for six or seven months, and then all of a sudden, you know it hit the third quarter, fourth quarter of the year and it's just chaos, which has been good, it's been fun. It's been really hard as well. Hard as well. Um, I think the the hardest bit probably is finding boundaries, like around work and who you are. Um, I think when, when I was swimming, I was a swimmer, but still not defined by being a swimmer, and there was still felt like there was lots of time and space and life outside of the sport, if that made sense, you know you train for you do train for six, seven hours a day look, it does make sense, but it isn't something that I hear very often on the show.
Speaker 1:So, because what you're describing is, whilst you were a swimmer, a, a top swimmer, you actually saw life outside of, well, the pool and that black line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it probably depends how you define that life, but for me it was like space for my brain to just process and think and do its own thing, and when you fill your day with work you don't have space for any of that. Um, it's really interesting because you take on the mental load of so many different little tasks. Um, but then it's also other things. Like you know, I was training for morning and afternoon, but I'm home all day, get to see my partner. She's on uh's a shift worker, so it's like we probably spend more time together when I was a professional athlete than now when I'm actually working, which is also a tricky change.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. Yeah, there's a lot and we often talk and here we are talking very much about that career transition or that shift, but that lifestyle that sits around being an athlete to then coming into a more traditional workforce there is a whole lifestyle shift. That happens as well and it does impact, as you're saying, relationships with partners, with loved ones.
Speaker 2:And I think you know it's been a year of change in terms of me taking on this job. A year of change in terms of me taking on this job, um, we also were living in a different state last year, so we moved state, which is a pretty big deal in australia because it's a long way. So there's there's lots of things that you know just kind of accumulate and just feels like chaos and the real world. I guess because because I think, being an athlete, you're partly sheltered from the real world, because your job as an athlete is to shelter yourself and protect your space and you have people around you to do that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I'm going to pull us back a bit and talk about you being an athlete, like you say, say you had that as a, as a job, um, which is something I want to step into, and then we can come back into how you perhaps structured or didn't structure, how structured or unstructured that transition was for you, uh, and and then delving a little bit more of how you're bringing that into your, let's say, into your current role and and lifestyle. So you know, you talk about this long, this career as a swimmer. If you take us back, when did you start to realize you were good at swimming?
Speaker 2:I don't know if there's like a clear point. I think my earliest memory of enjoying swimming slash being good at swimming, they kind of go hand in hand is just like chasing big kids in squads and I remember just like going to training, just but I'm gonna chase down the big kids and sit on their feet and like be probably a little bit of a nuisance, but I love to just be the the younger one, the smaller one and be a bit of an underdog and, you know, go for it. Um. And I think that like energy and that mentality just kind of like pushed me through all the squads, because I don't know if you remember when you're swimming, but it's like what's the next squad you move up into and progress and you just kind of keep going until you qualify for a states or a nationals and, or you know, make it all the way. Um, so, yeah, no clear point, but I just remember that, that mentality of like I like to fight and push myself as hard as I can, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I like, I like that and I know what you mean, you know, for it's wanting to be with, with the big boys, is wanting to be and, like you say, hanging onto their feet. Gave you that, I guess it. Well, it wasn't necessarily a push. I suppose it literally pulled you along.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pulled me along, but I don't think it was ever to beat them. It was just I wanted to push myself as hard as I could and that you know. The easiest way to do that, or test myself, was against them.
Speaker 1:I like that. You know, even just in that you talk about and I'm sure we'll get to, there's a competitive edge and drive that kicks in. But there is something there about being the best that you can be and you know it's like you were challenging yourself to keep up with them rather than trying to beat them in the pool.
Speaker 2:And I think this is something I I don't want to say cracked, but like figured out kind of you know, pretty early on was that you can waste so much energy thinking about what other people are doing, trying to beat them, when really you should be pushing all your energy towards yourself and being like how can I be the best version of me that is probably more likely to end up beating them anyway.
Speaker 1:So it's like, yeah, you just push yourself as far as you can, um, you know, and the net result is generally pretty good, so so for you with that, with, I guess, with that mantra, that mantra, how linear then was it for you going from that local pool into those national competitions?
Speaker 2:I wished I remembered more of it. Years of not enough sleep has probably destroyed my memory, but when I reflect on it it feels pretty linear and steep. It felt like a heaven pretty quickly, but I think in reality it was five or six years. But I remember almost ticking off a different step each year, like qualifying for a state and then it's a state final the next year, and then the next year it's qualifying for nationals and then a national final. And I remember it because I think when I was younger I probably got a bit nervous and it was like every time I ticked off that next step, every step below felt not as overwhelming. And so that's why I was conscious of the steps, because, like, once've done that one, the previous one feels fine, and so once you've pushed your experience a little bit further, you can handle a bit more.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, those sort of micro steps, micro goals in some respects. But I also get a sense you weren't, you're not coming across as setting that right. I'm making nationals this year. Boom, this is it. I'm all in for that. You strike me as more. Hey, this is all good, I'm swimming here. Hey, yeah, I qualified, it's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right, but I think it probably comes back to like I just loved being in the water and I loved pushing myself and that's why I was motivated to do it and I mean, there's definitely bits of I want to swim fast and I want to beat these people.
Speaker 2:I think that maybe like the best example is. I think when I was 11 or 12, I was trying to figure out like what the best pathway to success or national success, whatever, whatever the best pathway there and so I printed out the age group records for the 1500, for 12, 13, 14, all the way up to 18, and I don't know how across Australian swimming you are, but it was Kieran Perkins, grant Hacker, distance crazy and I stuck it above my bed. So every night before I went to bed I'd see that. Every morning I'd wake up, I'd see that, and each year it was like I want to try and knock that name off. And it's not because I wanted to beat them, it was just like you're on a path and if you can follow this path as well as you can and get as close as you can, you'll be in a good place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I do know. To an extent I can relate to that because I know, as I look back on people I've perhaps played against and competed against in my own journey, I barely remember who it was, because what I remember was oh yeah, this is your challenge. The next game is this level. This is who you're going to. You've got to mark someone who does X, y, z. It's like, yeah, I don't care about that. Oh, this is the you're gonna. You got to mark someone who does xyz. It's like, yeah, I don't care about that. Oh, this is the challenge. Great, and I was all about that focus and achieving that piece, much less about, in some respects, where it might take me or indeed might not take me.
Speaker 2:It was much more about that, that challenging it's like they're there to facilitate you challenging yourself. If that makes sense, they're like. They're a tool for you to push yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, that's good, that's good. So, whilst you're in the water, becoming obsessed with training, what was happening from an educational and academic perspective?
Speaker 2:Still in school, survived it. Just, it was never the priority, um, and I don't, I, I don't know, I don't know how it would have gone at school if it was the priority, to be honest, um, because they're, you know, swimming consumed so much of my life that it never had its chance. Uh, year 12, I remember I missed, I think it was about 12 weeks of curriculum because I was overseas at the commonwealth games, um, and then came back and had to cram, you know, almost a whole turn before, before exams, um, so it wasn't ideal but I chopped through it. But I, in saying this, I do remember making a conscious decision that, like, now is my chance with swimming, like I can come back and learn later, but in terms of like, physicality, you know, this is the window that I have to push if I want to do the swimming thing.
Speaker 2:And I remember having quite a like frank conversation with the school and my parents. Everyone sat down and we said you know, like, what are you doing? Not as in, what are you doing because we think you're on the wrong path, what are you doing because we want to help you? I'm going with swimming like I'm giving it a good crack. I'm still like I'm getting through school, so please help me. And they were great, had great teachers in my corner and they kind of just pushed me through, did whatever they could. I remember at school, actually, because I was so tired all the time, I would fall asleep most classes and they'd have to wake me up, or I would like end up under a desk sleeping, or if I had spare periods, I would just go find a couch and just fall asleep, like it was the point where I would take. If I could get three minutes of sleep, I would take it and set an alarm, that's exhaustion.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that's amazing to actually get through it. So whilst doing that, you were still able to perform as you did. It sounds like again, you managed to. Well, the great thing that you've said there is you had the conversation. So you had that conversation that brought the parties together who could support you to get you at least through year 12, get you through 18. As you then left school, what did you hope to become then?
Speaker 2:As I left school, I just felt, I think I felt freed, like the, because I was still all in on swimming, and so it was just like I'm just going for swimming. But just the time that leaving school gave me and the energy and the ability to rest was just like just helped me accelerate, um, and so that was amazing, and that was two years out from rio, where I once. It was like almost perfect timing, just like here's two years uninterrupted, just go for swimming. Um, in saying that, though, I think all all the way through, there was always a bit of my brain that was like swimming is not forever, so you need to have a backup plan, you need to at least be doing something else.
Speaker 2:Uh, and I think my parents probably told me I had to have a backup plan, one, but then I think there's so many examples of athletes that don't have backup plans, and you know, I grew up in a time where you see it on your phone, on the news, whatever, like it's everywhere, so it's not hard to miss, and so, yeah, with a little bit of awareness, it's like this is just what you have to do. And I think I mean growing up, you see people get injuries, get sick. It's like you could blow your shoulder tomorrow, and that could be it.
Speaker 1:And for you, that two-year stint. You were able to go all in on swimming Before we get to the outcome of that, whilst you had that thought in the back of your mind oh, I need a backup plan, I need to be doing something else. What did you do?
Speaker 2:I tried three universities. I didn't know what I wanted to do. When I grew up, I probably still, don't. To be honest, I'm still looking too do when I grew up? I probably still don't, to be honest.
Speaker 1:I'm still looking too, so that's why yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think everyone's looking, I think we're all faking it, yeah. Anyway, I was like I'll go do a business degree. It kind of applies to most things. It's general enough, I'll keep learning. It took me a while to find the formula that worked in terms of like online day student, that sort of thing, cracked it with the third university and then just kind of worked my way through it over eight years, yeah, so, yeah, so over eight years, but you managed to find the formula.
Speaker 1:Just tell me then, what was that formula?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I started all online, which I think was probably like early day, potentially just a bit too early for online university, like they hadn't quite nailed how the curriculum's delivered and the engagement and I probably didn't have enough drive as well at that point to push through it. And then I went to like 50, 50, so day student for a couple of lectures, subjects, whatever it was yeah, yeah, and then online for others, but that was around the time I won the olympics, and so it was yeah, yeah, um, and then online for others, but that was around the time I won the olympics, and so it was like pretty uncomfortable, to be honest, going to uni that mix was the wrong mix.
Speaker 1:It's like oh, hold on, yeah, that had just focused. How many interviews and all sorts of yeah it was very strange, um.
Speaker 2:So that didn't last long and then I tried a different university that had, you know, worked through the online learning and it was in a better place. And I'd kind of come to the resolution myself that, like, I have to get through it in this version because the other version doesn't work.
Speaker 1:There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be at retirement, injury or they need to juggle dual careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career.
Speaker 1:Second wind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions. Second wind academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions. Yeah, and look, fascinating it really is for me to to hear it, because work with different athletes, as I do, and always looking for what rhythm suits who and why and and how. And look, there isn't a cookie cutter approach, and what is interesting, at least as I listen to you and reflect back on that is yeah, you actually just kept trying and you were figuring out which one worked best. You didn't just say, oh well, that didn't work, never mind, no solution Would have been nice. Might have made things even easier.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe, I don't know, long term, probably not.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, well, that's it. And look, I mean just stepping into that. You mentioned there the Olympics. You know, being at the Comm Games as a school-aged swimmer, getting then to the Olympics and having some success, what was probably the biggest highlight for you as you look back now on your swimming career. This is always such a hard question, because it's yeah, and I've heard your answer different ways across different conversations, so it's even better.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll see what we'll get tonight. Um, I think my my answer at the moment and it's probably reflective of where I am in life and my career it's none of the accolades or the medals or the dice or whatever. It's being part of the team, experiencing all those friendships and those relationships with coaches, with support staff, with other athletes. They're the highlights for me, all those just very weird moments that only you or that team and no other group of people will ever experience, ever. For me that's the special bit, because I mean people can go and win medals, but no one will ever be able to have those experiences ever again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, very true. Well, that's, you know, it's poetic, but it's also great. It's great to hear that because those, like you say, those accolades, they're going to, they will definitely stay, they'll stay with you, but it's those, like you say, those almost personal memories, it's being with that team, it's building that spirit and, like you say, it's having the bits that probably none of us have seen, and I for one, certainly. But we won't witness that either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always think so fondly of my roomie. For many years I roomed with Zach Stubble cook um, one or two on a breast in tokyo. Um, but we, you know, when you go away on a trip, you room together for three or four weeks pre-competition and then two weeks of the competition. So you end up being together for you know, almost two months. Um, and it's just chaos. It's two guys in a room in two single beds.
Speaker 2:The moment you move in, you just flip all the furniture, figure out the way that it's going to work. You unpack everything. You got the coffee set up in that corner, you got you know whatever. There's this stuff everywhere. And then you get into a competition week and you're both racing and sleeping at different times, eating at different times and you're like shifts in the night. But it somehow works. Um, and because zach was very into his coffee, the room just always had a very distinct smell. It's just like I just missed that feeling of walking in after a hard day. Doesn't matter how. The result is, we're both wrecked. End of the eight day comp comp and you're just. How are you?
Speaker 1:going. That is good, that's brilliant. Now, listening to that, it's certainly something I suppose now, as you're coming out of that period, it can be very difficult to replicate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it's never going to happen again. I mean, there's potentially like experiences at work if you're pushing for a deadline or something where you know no one else will get to experience and you get to build a connection with someone but I just don't think it's ever going to be as deep or as impactful as those moments. I could be wrong, I'd be happy to be wrong, but I think it's just such an extreme circumstance to be one of 38 people representing a country.
Speaker 1:Well, you see, this is the bit that's quite special is, whilst, as you talk about that office working together on a tight deadline on a project piece, that to an extent is okay the projects are different but is replicated in many other creative agencies, client firms, etc. Many people go, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember this, I remember that, but there's such a very small percentage of individuals who have that Olympic, that sporting, that elite, that team mentality and that intensity. So, yeah, the situation and the description is very similar, but there is, I guess, something quite special about being well at the top of the game, being elite, considering, hey, we're doing this, but we're also the best at this as well, or amongst the best.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I the. The experience is filled with contrast as well, because you, you know, there is we, we are very good at it. There's a perception that we're the best in the world and we, I think we are pretty close, um, but then you know, you're still going to go and do your washing or whatever, or miss a bus, and it's an hour and a half late. And those moments are the funny bits as well.
Speaker 1:Still in your early 20s. There's still a lot that's going to go wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everything goes wrong. I missed the bus. Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, look with that. And so I'm keen, then, to think so, as your sort of you know that, as your sporting career, swimming career continued to like, you said you're in a national team, you're at the top of the game. At what point did you realize, okay, this is going to stop, and you could almost put a date, or at least a time scale on it.
Speaker 2:I think there's probably two bits in there the this is going to stop thought I had all the way through, which is the doing something else as a backup, having a safety net. But then I remember there consciously being thoughts of like, when it does stop, I still want to love something. I've always loved it. It's given so much to me. I never wanted to get to a point where I resented it, because I think a lot of people leave sport and they feel burnt and they won't go back to it. Yeah, so I didn't want that to be me. And then, in terms of when that was going to happen, I think that was probably always up in the air.
Speaker 2:You, in olympic sport, you think very much in olympic cycles. Um, so you know, you get through the Rio cycle, then it's like all right, well, are we going to Tokyo? Are we not like you're committing to four years? And then you get through Tokyo and say, are we going to Paris, or are we not Again thinking in four years? And for me it was always I'm seeing through Paris and then that's probably it. I'll be 28, three Olympics, that's enough, and the body will be pretty ruined by then, which that's not what happened. So much of a plan that we, you know, signed the lease on the house on the Gold Coast where we were living and training, through to the end of Paris.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you just go full steam ahead at that point.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you've got to commit right, you commit yourself, you commit in everything to it.
Speaker 2:And I think you know it's cliche to say, and you hear so many athletes say it, but when you know, you know and for me it was relatively obvious I missed the team in 20. I can't remember the years now 2023, I reckon Missed the team for the first time in nine years. Um, and you know, every other time I've touched the wall and haven't had a result or whatever that I was after, there's been clarity. It's like, okay, well, that's what you could have done better, that's what you need to go and improve on, and and I'm motivated to go and do that and this time, when I touched the wall, it was like I've done everything that I can, literally everything. Anyone's asked me. I've put everything on the line and I don't know what to do anymore to see a gain.
Speaker 1:How come on that occasion, how come it was so different.
Speaker 2:I think, because maybe it's just like after a decade, you or well, 17 years you have tried, like so many plays in the book, to say, like you're aware of all the levers that you can pull, and I just felt like I'd pulled every single lever, um, and there was no more to to pull on um. In saying that, though, like if, if it was just trained for the rest of your life because you love it and you can get paid to do it, go for it, but, but to go through that and then have to, you know, be exposed, competing on the world stage or whatever it's like if you're not heading in the right direction, do you want to keep putting yourself through that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, I guess there's. I mean, ultimately there's a financial implication of not making the team. And so, as you were I don't know well, was it as you hauled yourself out of the water after that race, or was it a couple of days later you know what started to drop. To be all right, yeah, okay, now we're doing it as I.
Speaker 2:I remember like walking around on pool deck after the race and just like sobbing which I've I cry very rarely, incredibly rarely um, and I don't know that no decision was made, but it was just like this feeling like maybe that was it, um, and that hit hard, because we have a plan and I love the sport and I would do it forever if I could um, but it just felt like, for some reason, that that was it and I knew um.
Speaker 2:What did I do? I kept swimming um. I reckon I didn't touch the water for maybe a week or two, but then I kept going to training five times a week, which is less than the usual nine or ten um a because it is what I'm used to, it's what I love, it made me feel good, gives me space to think um, and I also wanted to leave the door open in case anything changed. So it was like straddle that fence for as long as possible, um, which I think is probably secondary to the first point, the first being I loved it and it gave me space and structure and how did you get a job?
Speaker 1:I mean as simple as that. How did you get a job? Did you have a CV? Were you on LinkedIn? What happened?
Speaker 2:On LinkedIn. It's horrendous. It's still horrendous. I hate it. I had a CV, but I had to have a friend help me because I never had to write one before.
Speaker 1:So I'm like okay, I know it's not that long ago really, but what was on your CV?
Speaker 2:I'd been involved in the swimming leadership groups and stuff like that. The swimmers association, some volunteer work. I'd done charities, I'd been involved in that sort of stuff. The networking experience.
Speaker 1:Which is good. You see, now I think, for a lot of athletes well, not just athletes, as I've even worked with executives and CVs can be this really challenging sort of you get writer's block because I haven't done anything that's relevant.
Speaker 2:And if I didn't have a friend helping me, I don't know that I ever would have got there, and that was the person that helped me. Probably they did the right thing in putting too much in there, like tried to really pump me up so that I could go okay, no, that's actually, that's realistic and that's realistic and I feel comfortable with that, which I think is easier than going the other way, where you have to build yourself up, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it's good for someone else to stroke your ego rather than you be like I've done all of these things. Yeah, well, exactly, but you asked a friend, I'm guessing a friend who was already in the world of work in some shape or form, and they helped to shape it. Give you that structure for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and then, in terms of finding a job, it was just so many coffees Up until I started work. I didn't know what all these people do in these buildings in the city because I'd never experienced it before, and so it was like, okay, well, how do you find out? You just go and talk to them and see what their day-to-day is like, what they enjoy their work, what they don't. Um different industry. Like I just spoke to everyone that I could what?
Speaker 1:that? What you've, what you've just described, is absolutely fantastic. It's more, how did you know, how did you know, to do that?
Speaker 2:I don't know how I knew to do that. I don't know if someone told me or if it was. I think maybe it's like curiosity, because the question mark is very much what do you want to do? And so, okay, well, I don't know, but I have to get some reference from somewhere because I have no frame point. And then I think, like I'm in a pretty fortunate position where if I ask to have coffee with someone, generally they will at least reply. It's very helpful.
Speaker 1:Who were the first few with? I mean, some of these, I'm guessing was parents, friends, this type of thing, and then it must have started getting to randoms, you know, just like.
Speaker 2:Lots of randoms, genuinely lots of randoms. I can't remember who the first one was. I reckon the first one would have been a random. I actually think I skipped over, like parents, friends, and it was like someone was like, oh, I'll introduce you to this person, and I was like, okay, sure. And then, as you know, every time you meet someone, they'll introduce you to two or three more people and it just kind of snowballs. And then, as you start to build that frame and perspective around okay, that's what they do in that industry, that's what I want to explore that more Then it's like just cold messaging people. I mean, hey, can we have coffee?
Speaker 1:This is fascinating. You actually got to that point, are we? Is this a sort of are you now a LinkedIn stalker?
Speaker 2:Was it like hey, see this, grab a coffee? Yeah, probably I don't know what the like how you're meant to do it on LinkedIn, but I'll just search people and message them.
Speaker 1:Mark, that's exactly what you're supposed to do on LinkedIn?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know. You see everyone commenting and you're like yeah. Yeah, you do sound interesting. I do it in the shadows, I do it in the messaging, not on the comments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, no. It's the good side, in many respects, of LinkedIn is that outreach. It is so open that the challenges and it's one of those bits I'm really interested in is that inspiration to at least reach out to someone in the first place and say, oh well, why reach out to them? Is it about the industry, the company, the role, their background? What was it for you?
Speaker 2:I think all along every person I've met, it's always been like what can I learn? What is the takeaway? Like there is no one that doesn't have anything to add to your life, and so I've always believed in that. Every experience, every relationship that's not to say that every relationship is sustaining, but from every experience you can take something or learn something. So I think if you think that that sits underneath this like happy to just reach out and have a chat to someone then it maybe makes a bit more sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm with you, it is. You know, you're led there by that relationship, that connection and that sort of love of learning which you know again there. By that, that relationship, that connection and that that sort of love of learning which you know again is something that we hear now that I come across a lot speak with athletes is that love of learning, usually as a route to mastery. You know, mastering something, you're open, you're like a sponge and you know. That's certainly sounds like that was the journey you began. At what point did it start to narrow into, I guess, a creative industry?
Speaker 2:I think pretty early on I figured out I wanted it to be something that produced something tangible. So we're helping make something, or you know that makes sense. Um, I always enjoyed the creative and strategic side of whatever I was doing. Um, and I had a, a friend that probably pointed me in the direction of creative advertising, and I don't think it's something I'd ever considered, to be honest, until they pointed me in that direction, and then it was just like go have more coffees and find out.
Speaker 1:I guess in many respects you didn't know it existed until those coffees took you down that path, right, exactly, exactly. And then I'm guessing it was figuring out. Well, what roles are you eligible for?
Speaker 2:What roles am I eligible for, what sort of level? Figuring out which agency I wanted to be at as well, and going pretty Well, I think, as, as I was having coffees, you figure out the, the lay of the land, I guess in no one advertising, um, and everyone has stories from different places and I don't know, it's like a big four consulting firm. Each has its own characteristics and what have you? And, yeah, I just figured out the one that I wanted to go with and went for it.
Speaker 1:Well, which is great, and we're chatting here now and you clearly got it. Did you? Was it a? And I guess technical? I'm trying to figure out the order here Did you apply for a role? Or was it go and speak to that person and then they said oh, we're thinking you'd work, it was a pretty blatant ask for a role. Hey, what do you want? I'll have a long black. Have you got any jobs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, which I don't know, if I'd tell you where to do it.
Speaker 1:Usually. Let them at least have a sip on the cappuccino, or you just straight, piccolo. I'll just keep it this short and sweet.
Speaker 2:The best thing that they did for me was they said you know, come in and shadow with us for three days, and that was like the insight I needed into, more so, what the day-to-day looks like and feels like, and I didn't have that understanding that I had from that experience on anything else.
Speaker 1:I guess you found an environment where they're prepared to take a chance and they were able to look at you as you are as a person and think, yeah, okay, let's give this a go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that shadowing experience is like that's not so far removed from the coffees, it's not like I don't think people should be afraid to ask for it because you're not doing anything, you're not taking anything, you're just there as an observer. So I think, yeah, that was one of the better things that I did.
Speaker 1:That's good. You just kept going, you had the coffees and it sounds like you were eventually had that confidence to be quite forthright in it. And did you have to go through that interview process for you as well? You know first time Well no formal interview time?
Speaker 2:I haven't. Well, no formal interview. I still haven't had a formal interview. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:We catch up in a few years when they say we need you to apply for this job. You're like what? Yeah, okay, go for it, let's see where that one goes. Good luck to me, yeah, yeah, so in your role today. So in your role today, we touched on it a bit earlier. What types of projects, then, are you working on? And the question I really want to know is did you even know that existed 12 months ago?
Speaker 2:Did I know it existed? Probably not, Like I don't know. You think of ads and advertising and you think of really big campaigns and TV ads and out of home, but there's lots of other little things that move through the agency and I think, probably because of the nature of the level that I'm at, I probably touch more of the little things than assist on the big things, which is what you have to do. You have to figure out how the process works and I think you know they're probably more enjoyable because you're trusted more, you're able to take on more ownership. So often I think those smaller things are a bit more meaningful and a bit more fun because of the ownership. You then have the ability to build the relationships with the people. Of things are a bit more meaningful and a bit more fun because, because of the ownership, you then have the ability to build the relationships with the people and to what extent does it, does it feel like a come down for you in asking in that way?
Speaker 1:does it feel like, hey, I was, I'll say, champion of the world, to give it a rocky balboa sort of sense, but I was champion of the world. Um, does, coming in then, at this sort of entry level, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 2:I think it makes me feel fine. I don't think I can understand how it would be discombobulating for a lot of people, but I think all along I was always aware that whatever is next is starting quite low, and the thing I loved about swimming and sport is the process, building the foundation and you kind of layer on top of that. So I'm aware that if I was to jump a few levels or whatever, that's when you get into trouble and I'm happy to master this and then take on whatever the next thing is yeah, it's just the name of the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so earlier you spoke about putting the times of the fastest in the country up above your bed. Those are the markers of that's how good I can be.
Speaker 2:Have I done it for work? Yeah, have you done it for work? Is there a equivalent of that? No, there isn't yet. And now I'm trying to think about why there isn't. Probably because I think sport is so linear. I still feel like the working world is much less linear and much harder to plot a path.
Speaker 1:I might be wrong, but I just haven't like that path hasn't become clear to me yet, and so, without that path being clear, which is well, I'll say, probably for the first time for a very long time in your life, the path isn't clear, as in I win Olympic gold and great, that's the path. Without that path sort of mapped out for you or listed out, how does that change your, the way you operate?
Speaker 2:it probably doesn't change too much because, like 99 of what I did as an athlete was in the day-to-day and the process and the fact that it was a linear path was probably just like a learning lesson that if you can spend your energy and your focus in the process, it will end up progressing, if that makes sense. And so I think if you carry that over to work, it's like lean into the process and the day-to-day and mastering all the little bits that you can, and I just believe that it will kind of take shape. Because of the experience that I've had previously, I might be wrong.
Speaker 1:We'll find out, we'll check in, I'll drop you a note again in a few months and say so. So what's happening? Well, look a couple of last questions for me. Really, one is for your rhythm. How have you found your rhythm now in terms of your day and, in particular, exercise or health?
Speaker 2:I think my rhythm is in a good place now. It's just finding a new routine and almost setting some rules. So I have to hit three gyms a week and then two cardios and then either swims or runs or whatever, and that you know. The three gym is the foundation. My cycle to work every day is also part of that foundation and as long as I tick off like a certain amount, I know in a pretty good place.
Speaker 2:Um, the hardest bit is that work can probably like follow you everywhere, I think. So it's figuring out when to switch off, figuring out what to prioritize and what's important. And I think you know, when I was swimming swimming I like to think I had like quite a holistic view. It was like if you can be the best partner, the best friend, the best eater, the best sleeper, you'll be the best swimmer. You know, like do it, do everything really well and practice every little element as best you can. And I think, from my experience and watching people at work, it's hard to remember that because you're just like I'm just going to be the best worker. But the reality is you can't just be the best worker, you have to be the best parent and partner and whatever to then be the best worker yeah, the mix.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess the priority in some respects shifts in terms of what's important to quite simply fill your bucket throughout the day. So the last question really is you're going to have people listening, really thinking to themselves as an athlete today. How are they going to be able to best set themselves up so that the day they retire, the following day, they start their new career? Perhaps not necessarily quite so well on the surface, smooth, but based on your experience, what guidance would you give to those athletes looking to set themselves up best for their second wind in career?
Speaker 2:I think during your career, it's always having just a little bit of an eye on whatever else is going on, if internally, externally, thinking about what else is out there, um, and just an awareness that it will end one day, um, which is probably harder, easier said than done, sorry, um, particularly when you're in that sporting world or in that athlete mentality.
Speaker 2:And then I think the best thing I did was actually retiring on the Sunday and starting on the Monday, because I don't know if I didn't have, if there was a period of time where I was like what am I doing? Trying to figure it out, blah, blah, blah I'd get a bit lost and maybe overwhelmed. And so I think by going straight in, it was like all right, well, this is my task, this is what I'm putting energy into straight away. It may not be perfect, but I'm doing something, I learning something, I'm moving in a direction. Obviously, that's easier said than done to also line up the retirement with the job, but I think the message there is to it doesn't have to be perfect, but just do something and you'll figure out pretty quickly if it is or if it isn't, and then you can pivot.
Speaker 1:Look, mac. Thank you very much for sharing your journey, bringing a bit of your perspective. Especially great to speak to you so soon into your career transition. We're going to have to do a Mac revisited in a few years' time to see where we're at.
Speaker 2:Five years or something. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Look, yeah, listen. Thanks again for taking your time out today Absolutely brilliant thanks. Absolutely a pleasure. Thank, let's do it. Look, um, yeah, listen. Thanks again for taking your time out today. Absolutely brilliant thanks, absolutely pleasure. Thank you for listening to the second win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank claire from betty book design, nancy from savvy podcast solutions, and cerise, from copying content by lola, for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.
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