2ndwind Academy Podcast
2ndwind Academy Podcast
139: Tarek Moustafa - Who Are You When the Game Ends?
In today's episode, Ryan sits down with Tarek Moustafa, a passionate advocate for personal development and athlete well-being. Tarek shares his unique journey from being a young boy diagnosed with autism to becoming a mentor, educator, and podcast host. Through his work in schools and his podcast Life in Sport, Tarek is dedicated to helping young people—especially athletes—discover their multifaceted identities and navigate life’s challenges with confidence.
Tarek opens up about his own struggles with self-doubt, his obsession with learning, and how his passion for sport and personal growth intertwines to create a powerful mission: to empower others to find their path.
Key Takeaways:
- Identity Beyond Sport: Tarek emphasizes the importance of understanding and embracing multiple identities—whether as a student, athlete, friend, or family member—to build resilience and avoid being defined by a single role.
- The Power of Curiosity: From networking with industry professionals to exploring new career paths, Tarek’s curiosity has been a driving force in his personal and professional growth.
- Letting Go of Control: Tarek reflects on his journey of learning to let go of things he can’t control, a lesson that has been crucial in his development and well-being.
- Player Care in Sport: Tarek shares his insights into the evolving world of athlete well-being, highlighting the gaps and opportunities in player care across different sports and clubs.
- The Role of Mentorship: Through his work with young athletes and students, Tarek demonstrates the transformative power of mentorship and the importance of fostering independence and self-awareness.
Memorable Moments:
- Tarek’s analogy of sport being like McDonald’s—same but different in every culture—offers a fresh perspective on how sport connects people globally.
- His approach to helping young people map out their identities through simple, relatable questions like, “What makes you a student? A friend? A son or daughter?”
- The story of how a casual conversation with a former professional Muay Thai fighter sparked the idea for his podcast, Life in Sport.
Why You Should Listen:
If you’ve ever felt defined by a single role or struggled to navigate life’s transitions, Tarek’s story is a reminder that growth comes from embracing your multifaceted identity. Whether you’re an athlete, a mentor, or someone searching for clarity in your career, this episode is packed with actionable insights and heartfelt wisdom.
Quotable:
“It’s just as important to know what isn’t good as it is to know what is good. And I think it’s really undervalued.” – Tarek
Looking for Career Clarity for your next step? For more information, or to book a consultancy, make sure you check out www.2ndwind.io
the amount of times like people go to university and they study something and then they do something that's completely far away from what they studied which isn't an issue like for, by the way, it's not an issue at all like you're at different stages in your life and if you study something and then you come out of it and you realize, oh, you know, I don't think I want to do that, I want to do something a bit different, that's fine. But I know what I wanted to do from the start in terms of like being in sport. I didn't. I might have went through the phase where I wanted, first when I I wanted to be a physio, and then I was like, okay, no, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:I wanted to be a sports psychologist and I realized yeah and then and then I realized that these kind of performance lifestyle jobs exist and I was like, okay, I need to get into that. But yeah, that's where, like how it sort of plays in, because it's like I want to be somewhere where I want to be, I don't want to be somewhere where I don't want to be and I'm following instructions that I don't want to follow.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people afterwards. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Tarek, welcome to the show. Thank you, really happy to be here.
Speaker 3:Good man, you know I'm looking forward to our conversation because I actually I think it's going to be a meeting of minds. I actually think we're going to be preaching to one another here and go yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:I agree. Yeah, no, definitely, yeah, no. I'm looking forward to hearing how your mind works, how you think and how you approach what you do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it sounds like we're going to be flipping the script here. I'm going to let you ask me the questions, man. But no, seriously, it's good for us to connect. Just reading up on you, it sounds like you're certainly passionate about that athlete well-being and sort of mental space and health kicking into that as well. So I look forward to just delving into those spots with you and just see where we go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. No, definitely I think it's. I've always been quite big on the personal development of others. It's something that I'm just really passionate about. And then, obviously, I love sport. I think there's a. I think sport is not just the straight up um performance side or watching a match. I feel like there's so much that goes into it, whether it's what the what the athlete does, or whether it's what the other people around the athlete do to prepare, or whether it's the people that aren't involved with the athlete but they're involved with what we see. You know, like you've got the marketing team that does all this. You've got so much thing goes into it and there's so many different journeys and stories that, yeah, I've just so. That's what I'm all about man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good. There's an exercise we do with some of the younger athletes where I'm trying to get them to think broader about the different careers and we put up that picture of I don't know, it could be someone running 100 metres, it could be one of a footballer, a picture of her celebrating or something like that in the stadium, and we ask them the question you, you know, how many jobs can you see? And you know, yeah, yeah, so you know. Typically they're like, oh, you'll see the player or the athlete. But then you're like, yeah, but who built the stadium? What about the people watching? Who cut the grass? Who? Who took the photograph? Who did the marketing? So you really start to see that whole picture around sport.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent and I just feel like each person that each job that there is, like someone goes through a very unique kind of journey in that job, whether it's how they got there or what they do so like, especially like the player. We're talking about the player side. The player goes through loads of different things, the same as the coach. But yeah, I want to keep repeating, but yeah, there's just some yeah, that's a.
Speaker 3:That's actually quite true. I suppose, whilst I think of the roles that they play, I probably never think to that extent of the journeys that they have to go through. But you're quite right, every, every career, from what interested them in the first place, what skills they had to develop, what experiences they've had just to get to, you know, being that picture somewhere I see man, we. Yeah, that is quite interesting. That's good. That's another show. We've stepped into another show already. That's uh. But look, tarik, there's going to be um, some people are going to be checking this out, saying as we, what? Are going to want to know a bit about you as well. So just give us that infomercial about who you are and what you get up to nowadays so my name is tarik.
Speaker 1:Obviously, um, I have my own show called life in sport, which is where we jump into those kinds of conversations that I've mentioned and how much there is to it, that I like to call it the holistic side of sport and how life and sport intertwine, because they are like, they are things that really affect each other. And then I'm interested in the personal journey of anyone. Um, in general, like we're talking work-wise, um, I'm right now I'm in a school so I work in a autism provision so I support like eight kids with autism. They're all like they're in a we're in a mainstream setting, but we're kind of we we're a bit separate, but then the aim is to like slowly build up their confidence and independence and take them into the mainstream. I support them in class. I teach, but I teach a couple lessons. I teach some life skills, I teach autism, identity and I teach whatever my manager asked me to teach, but those are like those are the main subjects, so that's what I'm.
Speaker 1:On the side of that, there's a football program in my school. So, like in the uk, like you got like um college sixth form, like year 12 and 13, which is like after secondary education and in that football program it's for um year 12 and 13, so those are like the two years before you go uni and they're like just playing. They like have a football program where they like play every. They train like three times a week. They've got a, got a match in the middle of the week and obviously when you get to that stage of education, it's the first time where you've got a lot more independence.
Speaker 1:You start to pick your subjects. That's when you're specifically doing subjects that you like. So you're starting to shape what you want to do in the future. It doesn't mean that you get to that stage of education and you know what you're going to do, but that's the idea. So I've been mentoring a couple of people that are in that football program that you know. I support them with their education and time management balance. I like to focus on things like identity. I like to focus on things like, um, their goals and aspiration. You know, get, get an idea of them. I I work with a couple of other athletes outside of school voluntarily, so yeah, that's that's sort of like what my day-to-day is.
Speaker 3:Obviously butter is like the provision which I mean I do love it, but I mean the aim isn't to be there for for too long yeah, but so I like it, though, but it, like you say, it's anchored in on the schooling, which I think itself is uh, really good and very much needed. Uh, you know, in terms of working on that, I suppose, working with children on the autism spectrum and helping to gradually integrate them into, as you say, into that mainstream classes and I like the fact you also still getting to express yourself through sport, um, with the mentoring of those like 17 to 18 year olds, 17, 18 year olds in that sixth form college. Is that right, yeah, yeah, and helping them with, um, I guess that mental toughness, and I suppose I want to, I want to, I have to ask that question what do you mean by working with them on identity?
Speaker 1:I'm I'm really big on identity. You'll probably learn this today. I'm really big on, on on. I'm really big on like a way that I approach my practice when I work with young people, sport or no sport. Like, when I work with young people, it's um, it's about building their autonomy, but I want to build them up where they can learn the skills that I want to show them and be able to implement them themselves. So, with identity, it's like, obviously, when speaking, we've all got like multiple identities, don't we? We compartmentalize ourselves to whatever our situation is or whatever role we're in. Right, now.
Speaker 1:Obviously, right now, like you know, you could go like oh, the husband, you can. You're a husband or a partner, or a son or a you're you're. You're what you do at your job, you're, you're a friend, you're this and that you're. You're. You're a footballer, you're not. Yeah. So like I want them to be able to understand who they are, so then they can get a better understanding of, like, what makes them them kind of thing.
Speaker 3:I mean, it doesn't sound, I don't feel like I'm explaining it as well as I can, but now, you see, I'll step in because what I'm understanding is the first premise is, whilst you're sort of mentoring them and building them up, you don't want them to have to rely on you forever, but the idea is that you're coming in for that moment, for however long that is, to try and give them the skills and the confidence to know who they are without needing to turn to you every time.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and know who, what that part of them plays in their life, sort of thing yeah, because I suppose one of the bits I talk a lot about and I suppose as we we delve into that we talk about individuals identifying themselves often in one dimension, often as I'm the um, I'm a bricklayer, or they'll see themselves I'm a marketing um, a marketing executive, and I guess for some of these youngsters they see themselves as, oh, I was the cool kid or the footballer, and that's what I do, and it sounds like what you're trying to do is work with them so that they can see that they're more than just that one thing, but they're a multifaceted individual.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think the thing is, the more that you let's say you, you are the, the footballer, let's say you are, that you play football and you identify yourself as the footballer, the more you identify yourself and the more like emotion you put into that part of your identity when it does go wrong because it goes wrong at points like then, the harder it's going to hit you and the harder it is going to be to bounce back from that. You know so if you, if you have a bad game but you're so like locked in and immersed into your identity part of a footballer, the more that bad game is going to affect you after the game. I don't want these young people that I work with to be thinking about something that they can't do nothing about at that time. So if you had, if you had, a bad game last lot on on sunday, like I don't want you to be regretting the whole game for the for the rest of the whole week, yeah, yeah, as if there's nothing else in their life.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's quite's quite true, it is really true, and I see it a lot with those that I work with who are in that career transition, so who are looking for a bit more clarity as to where they want to go next. What becomes really important is speaking with them to say that's okay, let's find out what else you're good at, let's understand who else you are. How do you do that? I mean, when someone is young, right, what sorts of things do you do to help them see themselves as more than just that one dimension?
Speaker 1:well, I think, most importantly, like I've worked with some kids that are, that are a bit I won, won't say troublesome, but, like you know, like the teacher might be on top of them a little bit more. So I think the first approach is to be like I'm not here to tell you what you already know. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I'm not here to tell you what you already know. So I try to kind of detach myself from what they, what they see as a, as an adult figure in their life, like like, for example, there's a word that's always late to school. I'm not here to tell you off about being late, you know, you know you're not meant to be late. So, um, yeah, okay. So I started my point and I forgot what the question was. Can you repeat the question please?
Speaker 3:yeah, all good, all good. I was just wondering how do you approach helping these individuals to understand their identity, that they're more than just one dimensional well, I actually did a session with I'll speak about a session like this specifically yeah, yeah, that'll be good.
Speaker 1:I kind of got them to mind map it Okay. So I was like what kinds of I was like we've got loads of different identities In general. Sometimes it's great and they just completely get it and they're like yeah, so I can be this and that. Sometimes I might need to give them a little nice, prompt them through. Yeah, be like. It's not like I have a specific. It kind of depends on the individual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for some people. Some people are like they might get straight away and they'll get what you're talking about. Some people might need a bit.
Speaker 3:Some people the attitude might be like need a lot more prompting to coax it out of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think I'd start with one. I'd be like so you're, you're right now, okay. For example, where are we? Okay, we're in school. Okay, so what would you do? Yeah, study, okay. So that makes you what A student. Break it down like that, okay. So, and then I'll be like are you just a student? No, okay, so what else are you? Okay, no, I'm. And then like I'm a son, and then, and then I'll get them to identify like I'll be like so what when you're, if you're here by yourself? Are you here by yourself or do you talk to people? Oh, yeah, no, I've. No, I've got my friend. So that makes you a what, oh, a friend. Okay, do you get what I'm saying? Like I'm not spoon feeding it, but I'm like. That gives them the idea, and then they start to kind of develop.
Speaker 3:What you've done is really break it down in a super simple form, and what I love about that is it makes it present, it makes it right now. So what you're asking them is who are you right now and what role do you play in this environment? And by then asking them what are they, you know, where do they go at home or who do they then interact with, it opens up to have a conversation where they're starting to recognize that in different environments they might actually play different roles and then I break it down further.
Speaker 1:I'm like so, with one one student I worked with, they were telling me how they were a footballer, they were a student, they were a daughter and they were a friend. And then I said to them I was like well, what do you think is the most important identity? What do you think is your most important aspect of your identity right now? And she's quite sensible. Yeah, I think being a student is the most important, because that's what I'm my day-to-day, that's what I'm trying to achieve. From there I can get a career. But then she's like equally, football, I could get a career from there. And then, and then like then, then we, like we, we went into what, what is this like?
Speaker 1:I like to generalize things, but then I like to break it down further. So it's like, it's like it's like okay, um, oh, I'm a daughter. Okay, what makes you a daughter? Why is that important? Okay, yeah, I've got a good relationship with my mom. Ah, because of that, I'm more trusting. Because of being more trusting, I'm more willing to try it, do you know? I mean, and then it's like so, that's kind of the approach I took, um, that's kind of the approach I take, they're breaking it down.
Speaker 3:But obviously if someone understands and they can break it down without me having to say anything, then like I'm not going to be with them for very long no, no, but, but I guess that is as you said is that's the idea is to is to get them to that point where they can self identify in some respects, uh, the roles that they play in life.
Speaker 1:I know, there's the side of it. I was like. I was like do you think these identities change for as as your life changes, as you get older? I've got them thinking about that. I was like are you going to be a student forever? No, so that's gonna change. Something else is gonna come up like so your student now, you might become a, a uni student, and then a employee, you might. You might become a, a, a partner, you might become someone's partner. You might, might become a girlfriend and a wife. You might become a. I was like if you have children, you might become a mum. The identities are ever-evolving. It's ever-changing as well. You're compartmentalised, but you're not going to be the footballer forever. So that side of your identity is not going to disappear, but it's just going to be. Something else will take over it and other branches will be added.
Speaker 3:I like it, tarek, I like that approach that you've just described, and I think those who are listening are probably going to take a lot from that just the simplicity of breaking about who they are and in different places, but then adding that future context to it to say, well, will it, will it be the same forever or how will that change? How did you get into that? How did you get into being that kind of mentor in that sport environment?
Speaker 1:you know what I don't know, I think in the shortest answer I don't know, I don't think I became, I think I just I think I always feel like I have something to prove. So when I have something to prove, how can I get the most out of this young person to to want to learn and to want to? I don't know what can I do to get the most out of this person. Do you know what I mean? I think, and obviously, as I've got, as like I think, trying to get into, break into this player care space, this wellbeing athlete wellbeing space I've spoken to, a big part of like getting into such a competitive industry is networking. So I've networked with a lot of people that um, that are in the space already, um at like various professional clubs, like in in the uk, and I just take a little bit from everyone sort of thing as well so when you say network, what do you mean by network?
Speaker 1:so network I mean to interact, I mean to speak with and interact and to and to and to build a uh, I mean a lot, because it's quite a professional word, isn't it like when you? When you say network, but I like to, I like to kind of deviate from the professionalism and just think of it as just like socializing and meeting people and um, and learning from people most importantly. So, um, it's, it's an idea. The idea of it is to like, meet other people and have a mutually beneficial relationship where, like, if they need, if you need something from them, they provide it to you and if you need, and vice versa. But I kind of like to think of it as I'm, I'm, more I'm, I'm, I'm a much more personal person. I, I value that connection that you can build with anyone good, good, good or bad, right.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, hopefully more of the good. But I, I understand what you're saying in that when we say networking, it can sound like I mean formal, professional, like okay, networking event, let's go. What am I supposed to say? Whereas what you said is networking is being social, it's meeting, it's learning and a value exchange of some description and, yeah, so finding those four things. And that's what you've done. So you, you, you know. You said you, you don't know, you know how you get, get into that space. What is it that makes this athlete well-being space of interest to you?
Speaker 1:well, I think it goes back to what I said earlier about the personal development side. I really value, like, someone's personal development. I think it is easy to get lost in in, in whatever it is you do, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. You know all that kind of stuff. But then, like I love sport from little, whether it's like watching or just playing a little bit in the park like I love sport and this is putting two things that I'm really like passionate about together and as well as that, it's like I mean it's and being involved in sport is is is demanding. Like no matter what the level is, there is a a level of demand at some kind of some. There's an element of demand like whatever the level of sport you play, and obviously the higher it is, the more demand and I think the more support, um, someone could do with, but I think everyone needs support at the end of the day. So it's so, yeah, that's sort of where the passion comes from yeah, they do.
Speaker 3:Well, I suppose I just want to break down a little bit, then, those two avenues for you. So one, that personal development, but first sport. So for you, growing up, what was you know? You saw you talk about this passion for sport. So, as you were growing up, from child becoming an adult, what role did sport play in your life?
Speaker 1:um, when I was a kid, when I was a child child, um, I was, um, I think obviously I liked football. Um, so my mom is from spain and in in the part of spain she's from, she's from the south of spain, so she's from sevilla. So, um, in sevilla you've got two teams, you've got betis and you've got sevilla, and like it's. So like my family is very much split between the two.
Speaker 1:But I think when I was young, when I was younger, um, it was a way to have something to talk about with my family or to to ask. It was something to be curious about and something to I don't know, something to fall apart of, in a way like watching the football with my grandfather or my uncle or whatever. And yeah, it was just something to have in common with at the start. And I think when I got, when, when I came back to the UK and I got a little bit older, you know, like approaching like the end of primary, it was something to have in common with with, with people in in class and stuff like that and like um mean, not everyone likes football, but I mean that's the foundation of being a part of something, and when you're young you don't want to be different from anyone, do you? You want to be similar.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have a desire to be part of a community in some shape or form.
Speaker 2:There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport. This might be a retirement injury, or they need to juggle dual careers, between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career. Second wind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
Speaker 3:You're talking about football being a connection to family and being a community. It was a way to get involved in something and, to an extent yeah, yeah be part of it, yeah, and I think that's what um.
Speaker 1:I think that's what um it does for me now. I guess, in terms of um, like having this conversation now we've got a sense of community because there's there's that passion for sport where you support people transitioning out of sport. I try to support people in sport and you know, broader, like there's always that link. It doesn't just have to be football, it's anything, but that's sort of like the nuts and bolts of it, like in terms of the style of the profession.
Speaker 3:It makes a lot of sense and if, if I even thinking about the podcast, that that you do and then you, you think about, yeah, that connection we can have a chat because we both love sport and so with that and I talk a lot about me being overseas I mean I'm in sydney now, right, and it's been overseas, but by traveling, sport is always like it's like this passport, it it makes it really easy just to chat with anybody because you've got a love for a ball being kicked around or being thrown or running or something like that 100 and I think what I what I really really enjoy and find interesting about it, is that culturally it changes.
Speaker 1:You could be playing or watching the same sport, but in the UK football is like this, but then in Germany football is like that, in Thailand football is like this. So it's the same thing. All right, this is gonna sound like. This is gonna sound. But you see, like McDonald's, like if you go McDonald's in in India compared to McDonald's in Spain. It's the same thing but it's different in each country, like they've got their own exclusives on that.
Speaker 3:But yeah, we're gonna use that as the clip. That's your intro clip sport. It's like mcdonald's. Uh, it's the same same but different. Yeah, yeah yeah, but I'm, I'm with you, I'm with you.
Speaker 1:I'm with you, though without like waffling for like 10 minutes that was it.
Speaker 3:We should have cut straight into that piece, no, but. But I'm with you, though Without like waffling for like 10 minutes. That was it. We should have cut straight into that piece. No, but I'm with you. Playing sport, doing sport in different countries, you get to get a sense of this flavour. And I actually wrote a funny. Well, I wrote an article a while back about how playing football taught me or DJing helped me um djing and playing football helped me to learn french. So by living in france, by playing football, I learned so much more about the culture. Because I had the teammates would go out to eat. Afterwards I'd get invited around to people's houses. So that connection through sport really helped me to um, well, I guess just understand the culture so much better exactly.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is it's beautiful about.
Speaker 3:That's what's I'm so amazing about it, yeah so on the on the other side, talking about your interest in development, people development, uh, when did that sort of emerge to you that that side of your, you know, that side of your career?
Speaker 1:um, I think it started from quite young, like, not like like naturally anyway, because, um, I was diagnosed with autism when I was about 10. So I was constantly I wouldn't say I was behind Socially. I had a lot of trouble. I always had friends, but I kind of struggled with that communication side. I was kind of always in school. I was constantly doubted In school. I was especially in primary. In secondary school it got a little bit better, but in primary school I was doubted. I was just written off to an extent. And yeah, in secondary school I wouldn't say I was written off but I was just shoved in all the bottom sets.
Speaker 1:So what impact did that have on you? It just made me really, um, just, I just worked hard. I just I mean I felt like I, I could achieve, I could just do just as well as anyone else, as the next guy, but like I didn't like feeling like I wasn't able to do something. It was like I had to prove myself. It made me feel like I had to prove myself and prove people wrong. And I mean there were things I really struggled with growing up. I struggled like I mean autism is very different for each person and I don't speak for everyone when I speak about myself, because I I mean, yeah, I don't like to, like, I'm an expert, um, but like um, I don't know. I really struggled with with sudden change, like in school, like I feel if there was a supply teacher, I'd really bug out because it's just interrupted, so you've got a straight line, and then something changes, and then it like all shakes in my mind or if something's done differently. And yeah, I struggled with a lot of different aspects and and um, I think, I think, um, when you're young, when, as a child growing up, that's when you're more me anyway, that's when I was most, um, vulnerable, but that's when I felt most insecure. I wasn't sure of myself. I wanted to fit in, but I didn't want to, and I wanted to be myself, but I didn't want to come across a certain way.
Speaker 1:And you know, as I've managed to navigate myself into adulthood and through adulthood as well, kind of just, you know, you care about different things at different stages in your life, and I'm not talking about it could be socially, whatever, and I'm some.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say I'm someone that's come out of it like fine, but I think I've definitely come a long way and I've managed to achieve some things that, like, no one would ever think I would have been able to achieve when, when I was younger.
Speaker 1:And I'm not just talking about actual things I've done, I'm talking about the way I'm expressing myself now, for example, and um, like smaller things, and um, I think, yeah, it's a bit, um, I think being that sense of like it's okay, it's okay to think like that, as in like it's okay to not be sure, it's okay to not be this and that, and, furthermore, like bridging that gap between, like, the young people and and adults, because when you're young and you see the adults, you can adult work all together. And I kind of want to dismiss that like as soon as I can. And so, yeah, that's kind of where the passion is, because I've had to do so much to get to where I am. I like the idea of facilitating that for someone else and making their journey smoother while they're still on their path, of learning about themselves and not doing anything for them, but just being that kind of like it's okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, as you said because I think that's a wonderful story right, and your desire, as you said, to give back, to facilitate someone else to be able to understand who they are, find out, um, what they're capable of and, in many respects, not be held back by what people or certain, what society might think of them. And you're a guess, as you said, you're a shining example of not allowing being in the bottom sets or being written off or, as you said, quite wonderfully, being doubted, to hold you back from the impacts that you're having today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what it is as well is that I think this is something I've learned more in my adulthood through, like, personal circumstances I've had to deal with um. They're not nice circumstances, um, but I've had to deal with them, and what I've learned is that um is is about control. Like in an ideal world, we'd have control of everything, wouldn't we? Like in our ideal world, I, I'd have control of everything. If I wanted someone, if I wanted a job, I can get that job if I wanted.
Speaker 1:If I wanted someone to come on my, on my podcast, I can get that person straight away without I wanted, if I wanted, if I wanted to know that I haven't annoyed someone when I've spoken. You know what I mean. But, yes, yeah, like it can go from big things to just little daily things. I think what I've learned is what I'm I've learned, but at the same time, I'm still learning is how to let go of things, like let go of things that I can't do anything about, because I think, with my autism is that I've is um with me is like I'm very obsessive, like I get very obsessed with things like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Like football, I start like learning all the play, what I'm doing, I'm learning all the players learning all the this and that who won the trophies I did that, I do, I still do that now, my boys do that today but then it's like, whatever it is, I go for a phase I'm just like really interested in it and I want to find out a lot more, and then, or what like, with what I want to do, I get really immersed and like it, it's, it's. It's a good thing, because I've got that attention to detail. I want to go and and find out, but then at the same time I I kind of like burn myself out a little bit, because then I can't stop thinking about what I'm doing, like I could be lying down in bed and I'm supposed to be seeing the sun. They have to get up and I'll go on linkedin yeah, well, I mean, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:It's interesting you say that because it mainly because of the sporting side of things, and so you know, as I, as we talk, about your two passions coming together, so one that facilitating people to understand more about who they are and where they want to be, uh, based on your lived experience, but then linked or coupled with this passion or interest on sport, that kind of gets us to where you are today, and so I'm, you know it makes me curious that obsession that you would have. Now. How do you think that plays out with, with your connection to both sport and personal development?
Speaker 1:I think with, with my connection to personal development, is um, I don't want to be stuck in the same place. I don't want to be doing the same thing. I don't want to be stuck in the same place. I want to be be progressing forward into what I like and what I'm passionate about. And then, because of my like I won't call it obsession, but like my passion for sport, it's like I'm really trying to. I mean, like the amount of times like people go to to university and they study something and then they do something that's completely far away from what they studied, which isn't, which isn't an issue like, for, by the way, it's not an issue at all.
Speaker 1:You're at different stages in your life and if you study something and then you come out of it and you realize, oh, you know, I don't think I want to do, I want to do something a bit different, that's fine, but I know what I wanted to do all like from the start. In terms of like being in sport, I didn't. I might have went through the phase where I wanted, first, when I wanted to be a physio, and then I was like, okay, no, I don't want to do that, and I wanted to be a sports psychologist and I realized, yeah, and then I realized that these kind of performance lifestyle jobs exist and I was like, okay, I need to get into that, but there's no. But in terms of, okay, um, yeah, that's where, like how it sort of plays in, because it's like I want to be somewhere where I want to be. I don't want to be somewhere where I don't want to be and I'm following instructions that I don't want to follow yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So what you've described is that exploration, and what's wonderful here is that you're on that journey and you're on the journey to do more and more in that performance and well-being side for athletes on that athletic venture, and I I like that, I like the way you're doing it and testing things out and be like, nah, that's not for me and doing this bit and saying, now, that's not for me and, most importantly, you are okay with that and that's what's really undervalued.
Speaker 1:I think it's just as important to know that something isn't the right fit. It's just as important to know something isn't right as it is, to know that that's what you want and that could be in any aspect. I mean something little as that. Or if you I don't know if you love food, if you love a certain type of dish, you're going to eat that. But if you try something else and you don't know if you love food, if you love a certain type of dish, you're going to eat that. But if you try something else and you don't like it, that's fine. You know you don't like it because you tried it.
Speaker 1:And it's the same like if we go back to the Quotation Marks Network and I can have a great chat with one person about player care and realise that a lot of our philosophies and ways of thinking cross over. But, conversely, I could have a conversation with someone else and it's not like that and that conversation didn't flow or go as naturally or we had different beliefs. Like it's okay for that conversation to not have gone well and to feel like I didn't feel good, because then you realize what do you realize? You realize, well, that's not the way you think. So you kind of reaffirm your own ideals of how you want to do things. So it's just as important to know what isn't good as it is to know what is good. And I think it's really undervalued and I feel like when something doesn't go right or goes against the grain a little bit, it kind of knowing that it's okay for it to go against the grain and that isn't what you want.
Speaker 3:It's a bit more reassuring for yourself and I think for young people it's really important to understand that so when you think about player care in in sport, you know based on the interactions you've had when you but so when you think about player care in sport, what do you think is working at the moment and what do you think some of the gaps might be um?
Speaker 1:I think from from speaking to different people, I think what's working is that it's acknowledged and there's people out there that are passionate about the holistic development of the athletes, of the young people, and I think that person-centred approach and having that different kind of relationship with a member of staff at a football club is important. Like compared to like a coach a coach you want to impress your coach on whatever, whereas with like with the more, all the same, in school you kind of want to impress your team, but then with the more pastorally kind of side of things you want you can lay it back. So I think the fact that it's there and it's acknowledged, I think that's really great. The main challenge is that it's different in each place. So the idea of what player care is in Arsenal might be different to what it could be in Chelsea, because then it kind of the purpose of it gets lost, like the purpose of it gets mixed up, because then at the same time you've got clubs with less budgets that have player care but they might not be able to do as much because they might only have one number of staff across the whole, like under nines to to 21s. So I think I think it's great that it's acknowledged and I think it's only gonna grow. And I found out last week from so there's a guy called um hugo schecter and he's like big in that player care scene. He's very big in that area and he, he, he can probably speak about a lot better than I can, but he said something that really stood out. He's like the first player care, like employee, whatever a club was in 2001. So that's quite new.
Speaker 1:So I think it's still, I think it's still finding itself in a way, because there isn't a particular qualification you need to to to get into that kind of role. And I'm not talking just in football, I'm talking like in, like you know, in outside of football as well. There's not a particular qualification. There's just, uh, it's just sort of a learn on the job kind of role compared to compared to like being a football coach, where you are learning on the job but the demands are are a lot different. To be a football coach or any kind of, you need this badge, that badge, this experience, and there is that you need experience.
Speaker 1:But I mean it's great that there's, they're looking more into the person, but I think there's still, um, from speaking to different people and seeing how there's different beliefs. Some people see it more liaison, operational, you know, helping them move in and find a bank account. Some people see it more as well being. You know what I mean. So I think it's still striking that balance of of where it wants to be. But because there isn't one defined thing and it's based on culture and budget in football anyway, it is quite difficult. But then I don't want to speak too deep like I've been inside the football scene like that.
Speaker 3:But that's my understanding from my yeah, yeah, and I think your perspective is a great perspective. All right, because you're out there socializing, networking all right, let's use that plural term and what you've learned from bouncing off all of these individuals is that view, and you can see these differences in the model who you know, who is in as a player, as a coach, as a well-being individual, as, then, a a career coach, and the non-advisory perspectives. You're right, it is different. It's different within one sport and it's different across all sports. So I think you're spot on with that acknowledgement that it's great. People are aware of this need for player care in its broadest sense, that well-being, that education, but one of the challenges is that it is different all over the place and there are different emphasis being been made, which means that access players, athletes, have is different and is quite varied, and some therefore have wonderful experiences and others, it is significantly below par.
Speaker 1:I mean, and I think another. I think, like, what is as well in like a football academy setting you've kind of clubs are audited in different areas of of their academy and like, because, like, how do you, how do you assess player care if it's different in one place to another? Do you know what I mean? How do you know a club is doing well at something if it's, if it can be drastically different with how they see things? Do you get what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do and I think the and chatting about football specifically, I think the sort of work that the PFA, the Professional Footballers Association, does with Premier Leagues is interesting because, like you say, they're trying to put in outcomes, but there are so many different ways, so outcomes being the number of academy boys, girls who who get qualifications, those who you know, number of contact hours. Like you say, they're trying to put the outcomes in, which I think is fantastic, but there also needs to be and, like you say, it's a new profession, but there needs to be that view on, well, what structures are in place to enable those outcomes and what, therefore, is the best structure, or at least most appropriate structure based on, you know, clubs and and resources. So, yeah, definitely, definitely a lot to to keep talking about in that regard.
Speaker 1:And I think another big aspect of I wouldn't even just say player care, but just any kind of wellbeing role that involves young people is being part of that multidisciplinary team. You're going to have to work alongside different people that care for the same person but in different ways. The coach wants their player to develop on the pitch. I mean, obviously that's not all. Coaches are people as well. They probably build their own race.
Speaker 1:But you know you're going to want to work with the. You're going to need to be on the same page as the coach, who's gonna want different things and different demands of the same person. You're working with the same, with the higher. The higher the level it is, the more people you're gonna have to deal with. The parents. You know what the parents expect. It's gonna be different what, what the, what the physio, what the nutritionist? But then if you strip that back and you and you go to a school, you've got like that, the teacher. You've got like the different subject teachers, you've got like the different, you've got the pastor, or you've got the head teacher or whatever. Like you know, you're going to need to work alongside different people that believe in a different approach and you need to be really like. You need to be really flexible. You need to be really flexible, but you need to be really like inputting your own idea. But then you don't want to step on toes. So it's like it's a fine balance, because maybe a coach might think, well, he's playing, he's playing at a football club, why? Why is he doing anything that isn't playing football here? And then it's like you've got to kind of work with that. How can you work with that? You can. I personally like the idea of you know, for example, we do this session, this is going to help his communication. He can bring that session, he can bring that session, he can bring that improved sense of communication onto the pit and then that makes him, makes him better able to communicate, which maybe makes I don't know, or or then there's the side of it.
Speaker 1:Another thing I which I learned from from one of my colleagues in in in that scene, is, um, involving them in the work you do, making being an open book. So like, for example, if I'm doing a session with a player, I'm doing this with them, what do you think? Well, what would you add? Or from your do you know? I mean? So I think either open book and to show that you're flexible and willing to listen makes you more adaptable, because there's great people, but then there might be people that are more stuck in their ways. So, yeah, there's that constant. That's another point I really wanted to get out, that you're kind of dealing with this, this and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, as you said, and I thought quite eloquently, everyone cares about the athlete or that individual, but just cares in a different way, and so that on-field, off-field, mental, physical, all of that together, and so, whilst everyone probably wants to create a good person, a good athlete, in all those attributes, it's making sure you're helping to get the right focus at the right time. So, yeah, tarik, to tell me. Tell me more about, then the, the podcast, talk to me about your podcast and how long you've been doing it and what. What's, what's it about?
Speaker 1:sure. So my podcast is called um life in sport, so I call it list for short. So life in sport. So it's about, as I said, like the way life and sport intertwine with each other. I feel like there's just a very like. I feel like sport plays. If you're involved in sport, it plays such a big part in your life and obviously the way you're involved can dictate the way you do things. Um, so how it sort of I've been doing it for about on and off about a year and a half. Um so what, what? What it mainly entails, like how it was the idea was born, was um, I was doing my dissertation at university, so I was in my final year and I was doing I was in the sports side side of things and I was in I'd done a project called the perception of anxiety and combat sport. So like my whole dissertation was about oh yeah, you can be anxious, but, like you know, like it doesn't mean, like you know, you can use it for it's not something that's gonna be constantly debilitating.
Speaker 3:That was like the idea, so I spoke to just for, just for for my understanding, because it sounds really interesting as a concept is um, whilst everyone has anxiety, it doesn't need to debilitate you exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:So like that was sort of the idea, like how you perceive it can be, it's down to whether it makes, whether it facilitates or debilitates your performance. So I spoke to a lot of Muay Thai fighters. So this is I don't know how I bagged it, but I got a few people that were like former professional Muay Thai fighters. So my samples were like some amateur boxers, some people pursuing a career in combat, mma, whatever, and some former pros. So it was a mixed bag. So I was talking to a couple of the former pros and I have these conversations recorded, but I was just fascinated at what they'd done to prepare for a fight. One of them's talking about how, when he was in camp, he liked to shave his head. No, he liked to let everything grow out and then shave, like, do little things, little ritual things, but then it was like how he felt, what he did to get weight and I just thought there was so much to it and I found it really interesting and I was like I'm just learning this for an interview from a dissertation. Imagine what I could learn from making this actually something that I could share with people. I was thinking I didn't know this kind of stuff existed. So it was like a part, a natural part of it was like raising awareness. And then, the longer I've like developed the idea of the podcast, the the more I've realized it's not just athletes that I need to talk to, it's it's everyone. Like there's there's, there's there's loads of like interesting conversations I can have with different roles, whether it's directly to the athlete or not, and I just thought, um, I just thought there's a lot to learn and there's a.
Speaker 1:I'm very personal with the journey, I'm very part, like cause, from what let's say you're, you're telling me coming up, I don't know. Let's say where I'm talking to a, a, a boxer, and then, like, let's say I'm talking to a boxer and then from there I find out, I don't know, it depends on the individual. From there I find out their mental health was really touched when they went through this, when they were fighting. Or from there I find out what kind of issues they think there are within their sport, or what kind of issues they think there are within their sport, or what kind of challenges they face. And it's about uncovering those different layers. But those different layers aren't the sport itself, it's from the person and their perspective of the sport, do you know I mean yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, it's that everyone is looking again, everyone looking at sport, but from their own perspective. And so you started with that natural inner circle of the athletes, but bit by bit, while sport's still the central point, you've expanded that out to all these other roles and views.
Speaker 1:And I don't think sport specifically is just, I think fitness as well. Fitness, I think fitness plays a big part. So I just feel like there's so much to delve into into, into different parts. So I like to think of it as we don't talk about sport, we talk around it. That's. That's kind of the best way I like to define it. We don't talk about oh, I'm training at six in the morning and there might be some of that, depending on what the person speaks about and how. But then it depends on how I ask the questions and make the vibe of the conversation feel like, but it's, yeah, it's, it's kind of around. I I want my viewer or listener to get is oh, I didn't know that, do you know? I mean, I, I didn't know that, I didn't think it was like that. Like that's that's what I want someone to get from watching and listening to.
Speaker 3:To my content I like that and then. But I like the way you've just described the emotion you want people to have, or the reaction people should have, from listening to your show uh, sparking that point of curiosity, uh, and yeah, and so listen, tarik, I've really enjoyed your time on the show today. It's been, it's been great just picking your brain and having a chat about your perspectives around. You know, for me, I've already taken away things around that identity or building identity, simple steps to find identity, uh, understanding your view on sport as that community link and certainly your desire to facilitate other individuals to figure out who they want to be, and just really enjoyed hearing a bit about the podcast and certainly talking about some of the the player care and well-being sort of gaps and positives that that we can see at the moment. So, tarek, thanks a lot for sharing your story with me. I think it's been brilliant having you on the show it's been, it's been a pleasure, it's been great.
Speaker 1:um, you know, let me. Let me just flip it over before you end it. Sure man, go for it. What's one thing?
Speaker 3:one thing you've learned having a conversation with me this evening in your time zone yeah, Well, I think there's more than one, but I'm going to say the bit that I, the bit I probably really enjoyed, was your journey, or the inspiration for you to facilitate others in finding out who they want to be. And you know it was when you said you were doubted, and no one's ever said it in that way before. No one's ever said I was doubted, um, and so I like that. That gave you that reaction to say, okay, well, you're not going to doubt me and you are where you are now and what you want to do is bring other people along that journey with you. Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to get a gauge of what you thought and your interpretation of my words were yeah, man, yeah, it's been really good. My words were yeah, man, yeah, yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been really good. Um, so I I really appreciate the invite and and your time this this morning afternoon this morning evening.
Speaker 3:Too easy man listen. Thanks again, been awesome all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:All have a great rest of the time and, yeah, we'll be in touch thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
Speaker 2:We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers if you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank claire from betty book design, nancy from savvy podcast solutions and cerise from copying content by lola with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
Speaker 3:That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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