Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
Former professional footballer Ryan Gonsalves dives deep into the unique challenges and triumphs of transitioning from elite sports to fulfilling careers. Through candid conversations with athletes, the Career Clarity Podcast explores their inspiring journeys, uncovering lessons on identity, resilience, and reinvention. Whether you're an athlete or simply seeking inspiration for your next chapter, this podcast will empower you to unleash your second wind.
Ryan Gonsalves transitioned from professional football with Huddersfield Town in the English Footbaal League, to a career in financial services by leveraging his adaptability, transferable skills, and willingness to embrace new opportunities.
While playing semi-professional football, he pursued education and began working at GE Money Capital Bank, where he gained global experience and developed expertise in Lean Six Sigma and process improvement. His sports background often helped him stand out during interviews, creating memorable connections with hiring managers.
Later, Ryan joined HSBC in Hong Kong, where he worked for nearly a decade in consumer banking, focusing on global projects such as researching homeownership behaviors. His ability to understand consumer insights and behavior became a cornerstone of his success in the financial sector. After over 20 years in banking (including back in Australia at AMP, Westpac, COmmenwealth Bank and NSW Treasury, Ryan transitioned into career coaching, inspired by helping fellow athletes navigate their post-sports careers.
Ready to take the next step? Connect with Ryan at letschat@2ndwind.io.
Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
144: Greg Philips - Your Attitude Decides Your Altitude – The Relentless Mindset of a Champion Swimmer
Greg's journey isn't your typical athlete-to-executive story. This is about what happens when you walk away from elite sport cold turkey (for 10 years), then suddenly find yourself pulled back in – while building a career, starting a family, and even stepping into a boxing ring.
In this episode, we get raw about:
- That moment a 24-hour bus ride revealed his untapped swimming potential
- Why he took a demolition job after retiring from international competition
- The $35,000 mindset shift he wished he'd had earlier
- How getting knocked out in business (figuratively) prepared him for getting in the ring (literally)
- Why "perfect practice makes perfect" applies to spreadsheets just as much as sprints
Key Moments You Can't Miss:
1. The Unconventional Comeback
- Why returning to elite swimming at 35 with three kids was harder (and more rewarding) than his first career
- How shaving 0.6 seconds became an obsession – and what that teaches us about incremental business growth
2. Career Transition Truth Bombs
- "I didn't want to be 28 trying to start a career" – the harsh reality of post-sport timing
- His biggest regret? Not leveraging his athletic network sooner (and how to avoid this mistake)
3. The Anchor Words That Changed Everything
Discover the 3-word performance framework Greg uses for:
- Racing 100m butterfly
- Leading multi-million dollar deals
- Parenting three kids under 10
4. When the Goggles Come Off For Good
Why COVID wasn't actually what ended his second swimming career – it was something far more relatable
Why This Hits Different:
This isn't another "transferable skills" lecture. It's the unfiltered story of an athlete who:
➜ Walked away completely (twice)
➜ Found success in finance without playing the "former swimmer" card
➜ Proves high performance isn't about constant grind – it's about strategic comebacks
"The pool taught me that failure isn't falling short – it's not showing up prepared. That lesson alone built my entire career."
Listen Now If:
- You've ever felt "too old" to pivot
- You're struggling to translate competitive fire into career fuel
- You want proof that work-life balance IS possible for type-A personalities
Ready to explore your own second act after sport? Connect with Ryan Gonsalves and the 2NDWind Academy to discover how your athletic experience can become your professional advantage here: www.2ndwind.io
Tag us @2ndwind.academy with your biggest takeaway!
For you. You talk about that attitude. What do you think you did as a swimmer to get to that pinnacle, to achieve that bronze, to achieve those national championships?
Speaker 2:So there's a lot that has to go right and I figured out I can either look at a time and say, right, I need to just get that time and I'm just going to focus on that time. That's the only way to go about it. It's about focusing on the process, and this is why I love the parallels between what it is as a swimmer and what I can use in a leadership capacity in my role. Focus on the process, so it's around well. Firstly, is it practice makes perfect? No, it's perfect. Practice makes perfect. It's that repetition of doing the right thing every day or every session. So doing the right thing over and over, and over and over again in training so that on race day it just becomes second nature that you don't have to think about it because there is no time to think about it on a, on a sprint. Then I figured out well, there's different components to a race that you can focus on, especially as a sprinter.
Speaker 1:So there's the start hi, I'm ryan gonzalves and welcome to a second wind academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all.
Speaker 2:Let's be inspired by the stories of others, greg, welcome to the show, ryan. Great to be here. Thanks so much for the invite. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely brilliant, I think. As always when I get guests on the show, there's always this interesting story that goes through Very rarely, is it? One that has athlete, then stops and then comes back to athlete again. So I quite like this, um sort of camel approach that you're going to be able to give us today. Look, it's.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. I um, so you're alluding to the fact that I I came back to the sports a few years ago, so maybe, uh, 10 years, I think, after hanging out the goggles, yeah, and it was always something I look I didn't think I I would do swimming's very much, from speaking to a number of swimmers who swim at a similar level to me. So I look I was privileged enough to swim in slash internationally and swim for my country, but I don't think it's actually that uncommon that you then go cold turkey and then stop, which which I absolutely did and yet probably didn't look at a pool for another 10 years, but then, yeah, then came back to it in about 2013 with a pregnant wife at the time. We now have three children, so it was probably an interesting time to come back to the pool, but and then probably had a another pretty good go, but for about another seven years or so yeah, that's good, and you know I'm keen, as we will sort of delve into that.
Speaker 1:Definitely. You know for many who are, I guess, tuning in and they're going to be thinking, all right, well, who is this chap? Let's have the conversation. Just give us a brief intro, or infomercial as I like to say, about what you're up to nowadays. You know professionally.
Speaker 2:What goes on in your world? Yeah, thanks. So I'm GM of customer engagement for a tech business in the banking sector, so we're one of Australia's leading tech businesses. So we're a software as a solution business. We're called Loanworks and we provide loan origination software and commission software for the lending industry so banks, non-banks, regionals, mutuals, credit unions and aggregators. So, yeah, it's an exciting part of the industry to be in. I've always been in, you know, for the last 23 or so years, the banking industry in some capacity or another, either on the banking side itself or working with the banks. So, yeah, something I feel like I've got a degree of subject matter expertise in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how long have you been? So you say you're in that industry. Was there anything that attracted you to that industry in the first place?
Speaker 2:I think I always knew I would go in, always always knew I'd go into financial services industry, maybe from a teenager, maybe it goes back further than that. So both of my parents, funnily enough, were in the banking industry or banking financial services industry. My father on the more on the insurance side. My mother actually worked for the bank of england many years ago and then left, had kids and then when she came back into into work it was as a swimming coach and swimming teacher. So there's, both of my parents were very influential for, for different ways, on my career.
Speaker 2:In my swimming career, look, I think the part of getting into financial services was, I, I think, out of interest, the books I read, the courses I took at A-levels then in my degree, and possibly even the films I watched. But I think part of it was intrinsic. So I think because Dad, when I was a very young kid, the bits that I saw were that he both my parents in fact didn't come from a privileged background whatsoever completely opposite, if anything. But In fact didn't come from a privileged background, you know, whatsoever. Completely opposite, if anything.
Speaker 2:But he always looked immaculate, had amazing suits had this air of authority and presence about him, drove company cars, which I just thought was amazing as a kid. What? You get a car, ended up working all over the world in his career and we would, as very young kids my sister and I would go to his office office. So he was. He was based in Portsmouth at one point of his career, where I'm from, and in the 80s Portsmouth had about three skyscrapers, if that and he was in one of them so that that really impressed me.
Speaker 2:And we go and gate crash his office in the evening and catch the tail end of the day and he'd be there and I was. So this is me looking through a 48 year old father of three's eyes. I didn't quite figure it out at the time but you know, looking back on it it impressed me that. You know, he had this air of presence and authority about him and you can see that from the way people interacted with him. But they also really liked him and they'd be laughing at him and with him and he just had this great rapport with them. So I think that sort of struck me and my sister and I would run around the office and order drinks from the free vending machine. That was a bit that we we thought was fascinating.
Speaker 2:So I think there were some intrinsic reasons where I I kind of thought yeah, I think I want to do what he does and then as I got a bit older and as a teenager sort of then, understood yeah what he does and so, okay, yeah, that sounds quite interesting.
Speaker 1:So I think part of it's intrinsic, and maybe the influence of him and part of it is, is I was interested in yeah, oh look, it is really interesting listening to you share that story because so often, without realizing, we're influenced by those around us. We're influenced by who we grow up with and whilst there's nearly always a pull, at least initially, to say, well, I'm not doing what they did, what my parents did, that's just boring, there's always this, you know, there's this influence that comes through. So it's fascinating just hearing you. It's like, well, maybe I was always destined to just kind of fall into it, but it is interesting about you. Know, it's the way your dad behaved, the way he dressed, the way he went out, and there was things that you perhaps picked up as a, as a kid, that you weren't aware of look absolutely, and and again, look, I'm looking at this now through a different lens, but yeah, it sort of struck me.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, hold on, he's. He's kind of you know he didn't use these words, but you know he was the boss, right, so um, but yet everyone really liked him. I was like, okay, that's interesting. So, so that part, so I I could pick up that he had this, this authority and this presence about him. But he wasn't, you know, it wasn't hierarchical with this people. You know he, he believed that it's about engagement, it's about culture and you know he, he wanted to get the best out of his teams and his business unit. So, and I think so now, as now that I'm in a leadership role and being in leadership roles, it's like, right, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Didn't make sense to me at nine.
Speaker 2:No, but you know, piecing it together now from memories, it's like, okay, and look, and I think that would be exemplified at his funeral last year. So he, you know, passed away at the age of 84. So the fact that he had people who he worked with which is probably already 30 years ago now. At his funeral, and to come up and sharing those stories, I was like, well, yeah, what a great story and what a great reflection of how he led his teams.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, You're quite right. That is often, as we say, as AI says, a testament to his life. Your mum, on the other hand, you talked there from as she came back into her sort of second wind, into her next career was in swimming For you, then. Gets us now to sort of your emerging story. What was sport like for you then as a child?
Speaker 2:so I think my so. So mum was a swim teacher, swim coach, so we were always in a pool, my sister and I, from a very early age and involved with a club from a not very old age but probably under 10s or something like that, and my two sports when I was growing up were swimming and football and loved both of them still do, and so so I started competing at maybe under 11s, let's say in, actually probably in both. But I never fully sort of ramped up my swimming training until much, much later. And so what does much later mean?
Speaker 2:probably 14, 15, which is probably quite late I guess for a competitive swimmer, and I think my both parents were quite keen to just they never told us this, but figuring it out retrospectively because we're now my wife and I are doing this with our children as well didn't try and push us down one pathway, which some other parents did, because I think they wanted us us to actually want to be doing what we're doing as opposed to being forced to do it.
Speaker 2:But again, going back to the influencing factors, so I mean my mum. Actually there was this really unique point in my sort of teenage years where I had started to ramp up my training. So I was doing morning training and ramping up with the club and starting to kind of make some breaks on the county level, southern County and the national level. My sister was competing as well and then my mum had started competing again at masters. So again, looking back on that now I go yeah, that obviously an influence in fact to the. You know I'm a teenager, my mum is in her fift late 50s and she's racing.
Speaker 2:So you know, setting examples your kids is obviously really important, and that's a great way to do it yeah, through your behaviors, and that's why you act and but yeah, look, I think, sport growing up we were just always, we're always doing stuff. So it was again, for me it's mainly swimming and football, but it was an, what I'd say, an active childhood right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And what was that balance like for you, with that active, sporting childhood and doing school work?
Speaker 2:it's funny. I probably became more studious and scholastic, I think, as I grew up yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think, by the time I was at uni it's probably when I was, you know I was like okay, yeah, now I'm actually, you know, I'm embracing this. Yeah, probably the right order to do it in. I guess, I think when I was at school, yeah, well, now I'm actually, you know, I'm embracing this. Yeah, probably the right order to do it in. I guess, I think when I was at school, yeah, probably I'm decent, best in class, wasn't the worst in class?
Speaker 1:probably yeah. So I mean I asked the question because often when we've got this sporting you know very active sporting wise that becomes a really strong pull away to say, right, well, I need to put my everything into that. So perhaps a slightly different way, at what point did you realize you were good at swimming?
Speaker 2:probably not. I mean, there is actually an epiphany moment, but there were moments leading up to it. So, look, you've had swimmers on here who've had far greater trophy cabinets than I can claim to have, but look, I think in in terms of my achievements as a swimmer. So I, I swam internationally, I swam for my country, I won nationals three times in the UK, but there must have been a point before swimming nationals, before winning at nationals.
Speaker 1:Oh, there was lots of failures that you realised, but I suppose I'm interested the point in which you realised hold on, I should be. I'm not just going to do my one hour swimming lesson a week, I'm going to compete. Actually, I'm not just going to compete on the Friday night local gala. There's more that I can do here. How did you realize?
Speaker 2:that moment. So it's probably a combination of a couple of things. So I initially because I was probably splitting my time equally between swimming and football yeah, I think at one point, I think playing for two football teams of two football trainings etc. And I hadn't quite joined the dots to understand that if I train more swimming then I will then be faster in the race. So I'm talking quite young, so it's probably, you know, 11, 12. So because I was doing one to two sessions a week or whatever there's, there's a limit to how you're going to perform on one to two sessions a week.
Speaker 2:Um, so I was very active because I was then doing football three or four times a week, let's say, but I hadn't joined the dots to go right. The hundred meters butterfly when I race is going to be less painful if I've done 10 sessions versus if I've done two. So I probably went through a lot of, you know, hard lessons and failures turning up to, and so my event, one of my events was 100 butterfly turning up to swim meets, and the 100 butterfly is a tough event even when you're training multiple, you know, 20 plus hours a week.
Speaker 2:So if you're training two hours a week it's an even tougher event. So I went through a few events where you know I would be absolutely dying on the last length of the race. Yeah, coming in 10 meters behind people and then sort of not really hindsight's a great thing. I don't know if this realization happened quickly or took ages, but not kind of making the connection that if you train more that's not going to happen or it's not going to happen as badly. So I must have had a couple of years, a few years of that, because I started ramping up at about probably 14 and then at about 15. So I was still at school. I think it was my last year at school.
Speaker 2:We went on a school skiing trip and but leading up to that I'd been, I'd started to ramp up, so you know, and started to perform better in the pool and stuff, yeah, but still doing the other stuff, still doing the football, and went to school skiing trip, didn't touch the water for a week, had a 24-hour coach journey back from austria to to portsmouth via the um I think port lahav to portsmouth ferry or something like that, and the next day was county championships and I was swimming the 103. And I've woken up that morning and I'm totally exhausted from sitting on a on a coach don't want to go. Yeah, my mom said, you've got to go, you've got to go. I'm thinking, oh, I've had a week off, but, you know, rocked up to the county championships, which was Southampton, swam the 103, made the final, didn't win it, but I think I came fourth or something like that, but blew my previous time out of the water by about four seconds or something ridiculous like that.
Speaker 2:Now, so again. So I hadn't really made an impact on the county level. But that was the epiphany moment where I thought, well, wait a minute, if I can do that after 24 hours on coach and after a week not swimming, maybe I should actually start to take this sport more seriously. And that that was probably my light bulb moment. And then pretty much from there, that was it. I was in the sport I'm going to focus, and so I think I was. I was probably actually 15 coming on 16, because I think it's my last year at school, and from then on it was then just swimming.
Speaker 1:And so at that time I mean that's amazing, and things don't always lead to an epiphany moment, but you recognize at that point well, hey, there's talent. The scoreboard is telling you there's some talent there and you put everything in. What, would you say, changed then? What changed in your, either behavior, or at least what you thought you might be able to achieve in swimming?
Speaker 2:So that would have been so if I was 16, what would that be? 92. Yeah. So from that, literally that point on, I was like, right, I think I can actually be half decent at this.
Speaker 2:Look, I've always thought I don't know where I feel about, how I feel about natural talent. So if there is such a thing as natural talent I don't think I necessarily had it for swimming and a coach of mine in in the US said look, forget natural talent. He said attitude beats natural talent every time. Now he told me that probably eight years after that. But when he said that I was like, yeah, that really resonates with me because that's kind of how I'd never actually kind of put it in those terms, that's kind of how I'd always sort of felt. I kind of always felt if you just make sacrifices, work hard, show some tenacity, show some portsmouth, never say die attitude kind of thing, then I think you can. You can kind of be good at whatever you put your mind to. So I thought I think I might be half decent at this. So from from that moment on I look. So that was 92, probably. Then another three years before I went to the us. So I put my, my head down and went up the train.
Speaker 1:Well, that idea of going to the US, what made you think so you're a swimmer in Portsmouth? What gave you then this view on? Well, the US is a natural place for me to go to continue to improve.
Speaker 2:So at the time. So this is so. It's pre-lottery funding days. It was still very much a young person's sport, so you would be lucky to find any. You know too many swimmers in their mid-20s in sort of 1992. So it's pretty much, if you swam at university age then you were probably doing it whilst you know attending university, but it wasn't necessarily a dedicated program within that universe and it wasn't a funded thing for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So I thought, look, but so what we were starting to see is swimmers going to the US and then coming back and swimming at nationals and shooting the lights out, and I thought, okay, could that be an option for me? So we started doing some investigating and, yeah, ended up it was through. It was actually who. I got put onto a coach in the US by again name dropping. I got put onto a coach in the US by again name dropping the BBC commentator, andy Jameson, who Olympic medalist, former European record holder, still a commentator now for the BBC and I attended a swim clinic with him around about that time and he just put me onto a coach in the US called Neil Harper. Reached out to Neil Harper I'm still in contact with today and he put me in touch with some coaches over there and that's kind of how it all started, right and.
Speaker 2:But the best and the most, also equally the most challenging thing about swimming is it's it's very black and white, so it's not like football where it's subjective. It's a game of opinions. Swimming's back or white. You've either won the race or you haven't. You've either touched in front of someone or you haven't. Uh, your time is either 46.9 seconds, or it's 47.0. It's not like well, you're a better swimmer than that person. It's well if you're faster than technically. Yeah, we'll each have an opinion on who the best football team is. You'll possibly say it's leeds united. I will, of course, say it's portsmouth, but you should end this conversation now. So so, so really any, any selection if you like, for a us university.
Speaker 2:It's great because it's based on time yeah if they're looking for a 50 freestyle, 100 freestyler, and these are your times and they want to recruit you they. They've got tangible evidence.
Speaker 1:Go yeah we can bring them in for that move to the us. What connections did you have on the ground in the us? How did you know where to go?
Speaker 2:so that that was probably off the back of that the the Andy Jameson referral. So I put him in touch with Neil Neil Harper. Now I think he's at Florida State or Arkansas. He connected me with North Carolina State, started the conversation there. Look, this is all pre-YouTube. It was pre-internet, so it's not like they could Google me and say, right, what was his time at Nationals last year.
Speaker 2:But there was a degree of research on me and, yeah, who is this guy? And and it was. It was good timing, I think. I'd think that year was the first year I won nationals, so that was a tangible yeah like say, okay, well, this is who he is. I know we're talking back then, but winning nationals is it's pretty big it is, and it's still, I think, probably one of my fondest memory and I love the way you act like it's nothing.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, I was just the fastest swimmer in the in the country again very cognizant of.
Speaker 2:There are others who have achieved way more in the sport. I'm not claiming to be a Michael Phelps. I think for my, I think I did okay, I think okay.
Speaker 2:I think you know I fortunate enough to win nationals three times the 50 fly yeah, one nationals in the US on the 4x100 freestyle relay when I was at University of Hawaiiaii. I was at university of hawaii we broke the american record for the 4x50 freestyle. Equally, one of my fondest achievements was probably winning uh sorry, getting a bronze medal at the fina world cup in 2001 at sheffield, at fina, now world aquatics and because at the time that that field was pretty heavily stacked as well. So I was up against the world record holder at the time for the 100 and 200 fly, dennis pankratov from russia. So it was a decent field. It wasn't that no one showed up, but but and there is a big but to this I think I I got the best out of my quote-unquote talent and capability how do you think you did that?
Speaker 1:you gave the quote which you got whilst you're over in the in the us, which I guess is during this time of those achievements. You know the attitude is better than this natural talent or beats natural talent. So for you, you talk about that attitude. What do you think you did as a swimmer to get to that pinnacle, to achieve that bronze, to achieve those national championships?
Speaker 2:I think I figured out that there's a lot to a sprint race for a start. So my races were the 50 and the 100, freestyle and basketball. So there's a lot that has to go right and I figured out I can either look at a time and say, right, I need to just get that time and I'm just going to focus on that time. That's the only way to go about it. It's about focusing on the process and this is why I love the parallels between what it is a swimmer and what I can use in a leadership capacity in um in my role. Focus on the process, so it's around. Well, firstly, is it practice makes perfect? No, it's perfect, practice makes perfect. So it's that. It's that repetition of doing the right thing every day or every session, so multiple sessions a day. So doing the right thing over and over and over and over again in training so that on race day it just becomes second nature, that that you don't have to think about it because there is no time to think about it on a, on a sprint. Then I figured out well, there's different components to a race that you can focus on, especially as a sprinter. So there's the start. So the start is the fastest point of the race because you're traveling through the air as opposed to through the water, so there's less resistance. So hold on a minute if I can have a great start and that's going to be a really good advantage.
Speaker 2:Now don't get me wrong. When you're swimming internationally, everyone's got a great start. Everyone trains a lot, everyone has got natural explosive speed, everyone's got great endurance. So it's not just case of, oh, if I focus on myself, no, I'll answer the best reactions and the best start and the best height of the dive, the best angle of entry, the best under underwater streamline position, the best underwater kicks. So I tried to sort of break it down into what are the things that I can work on. So I know that in a world cup final or a Olympic trials final, everyone is going to be fit, strong, explosive, great endurance.
Speaker 2:So what are the things that I can work on outside of that that don't actually take more time and don't actually necessarily take more energy? It's just concentration, it's just focus and it's just that. I think it's that mentality of just trying to do all of the right things all of the time, you know. So there's no oh. Well, if you do this, if you react quicker, then you know you're going to get off the box quicker, so you're going to win the race. No, it's. It's doing all of the right things all of the time just trying to have that mindset.
Speaker 1:Fascinating as you break that down, really, because you're talking about that's just the start. Well, yeah, that's the start. Well, that's the thing You're talking about. There's a process, you're following that process. You've then actually obvious, as you say it, but I've never thought about yeah, that is the fastest point in the race. So you're talking about breaking down a race in which it goes so quickly that, as you said, you don't really think about it whilst you're doing it, which means it's all the prep ahead of the race that you have to do breaking it down into those one pieces and the bits. That gets you to that next level is the concentration level, the mental endurance to be able to keep it up, to be able to do it repetitively so it comes out perfect yeah, again it's.
Speaker 2:It's a case of my assumption going into when I got to a certain point in my career, that is, that everyone is doing that, so then it's like I've got to do it even better because I've got to assume they're doing. They're doing more than what I'm doing, so I've got to do it even better than what they might be doing. What? What else can I be doing that's going to give me a legal edge?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know what can I be working on? And, um, what can I be doing out of the water? What can I be doing? Because we're talking fine margins, of course. So we're talking, you know, a hundredth of a second is the difference between a medal and no medal. A tenth a second is the difference between first and maybe eighth. You know so. So we're talking very, very fine margins. So you know even things like you know. And then this was also relevant when I came back to the sport, probably more so because I didn't have the opportunity to train as much. So that's when then the nutrition side comes into it the, the sleep, all the things that you can control, but that aren't necessarily training related yeah right, I mean going through that.
Speaker 1:You gave a few hints in winning nationals going back over to the us finishing college, doing those types of things. At what point did you come to a realization that this level of swimming is going to have to stop? I'm going to have to do something else. When did you think my elite career is over again this?
Speaker 2:is looking through my lens now yeah but I think I thought this at the time as well. So I sort of felt, because I I sort of started the journey quite late. I sort of I always felt like, okay, I'm sort of coming towards the end because there weren't, there weren't too many swimmers in their mid-20s, when you know when I was in my early 20s.
Speaker 2:So I was thinking I've probably got a couple more years of this and being in america. So two years at north carolina state and then then I transferred to university of hawaii. So in hawaii I kind of, by the time I was in hawaii, I sort of knew, all right, I may have a year or two after I leave hawaii, but possibly it may just be well, leave hawaii and that's it then. Then I'm done. I think that probably created a sense of urgency to a point as well. You know, making sure that you absolutely make the most of this and making sure that you know, because this, this could be your last season, kind of thing, so there was I think there was a bit of that, that approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I sort of felt that, look, this probably won't last forever, because not many people who you know it's actually quite common now for swimmers to go into their, you know, into their 30s, for example definitely wasn't back then. That's what are we talking to? 2000,. Let's say early 2000s. So I would have been thinking about the transition in Hawaii, but with the view I want to try and keep this going for as long as makes sense and for as long as I'm improving and representing my country and hopefully winning stuff and, you know, getting faster. But yeah, I would have been thinking about about the what next, probably from two years out maybe yeah, I think because at the time there was, there was no money in swimming as well that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, by the time I finished lottery funding was just about come in, but the the criteria was understandably strict and and the funding wasn't that high as well. That was the other thing. So I think to to get about 10 grand a year or something, you probably need to be top eight in the world, and so the kind of incentive was well okay, that's great. I mean any.
Speaker 2:Any money's good if you know, if you're if you're assuming I'll get paid, but you're not going to be able to buy a house or buy a car or run a car or what kind of live. So, and that's the thing, swimming is a full-time commitment in terms of the hours that are expected, uh, or that are required. So so I think I I kind of knew that there has to be a plan B, so I was probably thinking about it from two or three years out, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm interested. Then what did you do? So you thought about it two years out. Did you do anything to prepare for that or to make it happen?
Speaker 2:So I think there would have been, you know, career conversations with people at the university at the time when I was at University of Hawaii Do you actually remember them, or it's like, yeah, I probably did have them. There's probably one that stuck out where the counsellor said it was something along the lines of you know, if you thought about what you want to do, and I probably would have said something about financial services because of you know my dad and he sort of said, yeah well, you know.
Speaker 2:Because you sort of said, yeah well, you know, because you know, you know you're a swimmer and you probably want to be um, utilizing the fact that you know you're competitive and being in an environment where you know, the harder you work then you'll be rewarded for that. It allowed me to sort of just. It probably didn't really influence me, but it allowed me to just put a bit of framework around. Okay, I need to. What can I be doing where I'm going to be utilizing maybe some of the same skills that you know? Take those from the pool to my career.
Speaker 2:The funny thing is now I've probably got a different view now, because I think that the skills that elite sport gives you are actually applicable to anything in life. It doesn't have to be financial services, it doesn't have to be a leadership role, it's basically look, I think the relevant skills that I took from swimming are that if you show some tenacity, if you're prepared to make sacrifice and if you've got a great attitude, then those are skills that are relevant in any role and your personal relationships and as a parent.
Speaker 2:So those are, but really important, I think, to just always anchor back to. So I don't know whether swimming gave me that or whether I had that and swimming enhanced it, possibly a combination of both yeah, I think it is a combination of of both.
Speaker 1:I know one of the guests I had previously spoke about. Your environment forces certain genes, or at least behaviors, to come alive, and you know that environment of sport at an early age means that a body sort of gets used to this. It's like wow, hold on, I'm competing every day. I need to concentrate every day and perhaps to a level that your average 12 year old, your average 18 year old, 21 year old, hasn't had time to do because the number of experiences that you have. So I'm interested then. Well, actually before that, how seriously did you take the degree that you were doing or the studies in the US?
Speaker 2:There was always a part of me that thought probably wrongly but is anyone going to care about this? If I'm working in the uk, is any future employer going to look at the fact that I've got a degree from a us university? And so there was an element of that. But then there was, there were many elements of it that I've really enjoyed because, regardless of your, your major, you could actually. My major was exercise physiology, for example yeah, but there were a lot of other classes that weren't related to your major that you can take. So I ended up taking a lot of economics related classes, right, okay, which, hence when, when I said that you know that part of the class I was taking at university, kind of formed where I think, or informed where I ended up, yeah, starting my, I think that variety probably actually helped me.
Speaker 2:Actually, it probably helped keep it fresh and interesting for me and in a way that I'm still learning and growing, but in sort of maybe multiple areas and disciplines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. It's always when you're there a lot of scholarship athletes or athletes there for sports. The academic piece is like, yeah, that is cool, we'll get to that they're for sport.
Speaker 2:The academic piece is like, yeah, that is cool, we'll, we'll get to that well, but it's funny you say that because you are on scholarship I mean the, the coach kind of owns you, less so in in hawaii, but our coach in um north carolina state was very keen to remind everyone of that and if, if people and he'd get reports on everyone's grades. Yes, and everything over there is which is very different to uk, but it's your grade point average so broadly speaking, it's the number of hours that you're doing overlaid by your grade, overlaid by.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe that's it, and so, basically, grade point average of four is a averages across your classes. Yeah, so he'd get these reports and yeah, if people weren't performing in their classes, he'd coming down on them and making them do study hall after training in the evening and stuff like that you know so um, so yeah and there was always that threat that you could have your scholarship pulled if you weren't yeah, weren't telling the lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very true. No, that's, that's positive, that that sort of approach. I think it's good to hear so for you. Then, coming out of swimming chapter one, what did you do?
Speaker 2:so I did. Coming out of it was actually quite I might, painful is the wrong word, but it was um, yeah, it wasn't easy. So I'd not long summer at the world cups at um, sheffield and then berlin, yeah, but very soon after that, and um, so, and I was back in the uk at the time, knowing that I had another year in hawaii is like a, like an extension of my student visa where you can, you can basically work for another year. So I thought, well, I'd be stupid not to do that. So I knew that I could go back and work over there. So I knew that I was going to be going back, but I thought, well, the visa hadn't come through, so there was this kind of period of two to three months. So I was still sort of training and it really dawned on me at the time because I was thinking, oh well, maybe I won't go back, maybe, maybe I'll stay here.
Speaker 2:The club I was training with, portsmouth North they're an elite club head coach there at the time, elite coach, multiple Olympians, multiple world record holders he produced.
Speaker 2:He's now over here and our paths have since crossed again, which has been fantastic, and I was thinking well, the point being the level of commitment to train with that team was high, and I was doing that, thinking this is great. If I was to do this for another, another year or two, how do I fund it doesn't really allow me to to work. I'm not making any money from doing it, even though I've just signed for my country so, and I'm not going to be in a position to buy a house or buy a car or anything like that. How am I going to do this? There's probably a window of maybe four or five hours during the day where I could work. What am I going to do that's going to allow me to fund a lifestyle and train. So that process was going on in my mind, so I think I did a. I mean, it was probably going on in my mind prior to the World Cup as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, long story short, I made the hard decision to speak to my coach at the time, chris Chris Nesbitt, at Portsmouth, and I just said oh look, I think this is it and that was I mean.
Speaker 2:Mean, it's hard to tell him hard for a couple reasons because, you know, put a lot of time and an energy into into my development. So to tell him that that was it was tough. Then saying it out loud was like, oh, this is it, yeah, I'm done. So that part was like he was great about it. By the way, he said look, you've made a decision based on a life decision. You haven't made an emotional decision or assuming decision. You said I can tell you've thought this through and it's a tough decision for you, and it was so. Shortly after that I um, this is the glamorous part I went and got a job as a laborer because I knew that the visa was going to be coming through, yeah, so I worked on a demolition site for, I think, two or three months to get some money before I went back to Hawaii, yeah, and went back there, worked, uh, worked for a year yeah, what were you doing in Hawaii?
Speaker 2:That was just in retail management.
Speaker 1:What does that?
Speaker 2:mean Abercrombie. So I was a manager at Abercrombie for a year. Retail management sounds way better, but you were at Abercrombie.
Speaker 1:We're in the 2000s, so this is still lights flashing discotheque type thing. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I resumed my football activities. So that was good. So I joined a team which as we all know because you play over here. Generally, when you find a football team, half the team are brits. Yeah, as was as was the case here.
Speaker 2:So, uh, so that was good, start playing football again and then basically did a year of that to try and figure out. I knew that I wasn't gonna be working in retail management. Yeah, to figure out then, all right, I'm gonna be going back to england. Whatever it would have been feb next year. I knew by then, okay, I'm probably gonna end up in financial services. What are the steps I need to take to make that happen?
Speaker 1:so it's probably a good three to six months of trying to get my resume out there, which at the time consisted of swimming and just trying to metaphorically knock on doors to try and get some opportunities for when I came back Right and so, from my understanding, left swimming, went to the US, took a year, probably loving life, given the company and what it was like at that time played football, things were good. You made a decision then to come back to the UK, put those steps in, got the resume out which effectively was a student with some good athletic aspirations, basically came on there. I'm interesting, as you look back at that resume was it swimming? How did you lay it out? Because you know there's a lot of people coming to like you know, I've just been an athlete, I'd nothing else to put on there. What did you put on there?
Speaker 2:yes, it was that, and so I'm thinking, well, how do I, how do I actually make this appealing to an employer on the basis that actually have? You know, if I'm trying to get into financial services, I don't have any financial services background, so I'm so I was putting all summer jobs that I'd had on there and you know, looking back, and I mean very, very skinny, but then and again I was.
Speaker 2:I was also conscious, and part of the reason why I hang up the goggles when I did is I was like, look, I don't want to be 28, 29, trying to start a career. So so it was still quite late for me. I was still 20, 25, 26 maybe at this point trying to get into financial services. So so, yeah, the CV was skinny. It was.
Speaker 2:I was a swimmer and educated in the US, which hopefully shows something about you yeah it shows that you've got some kind of get up and go about you and some tenacity, adaptability, and then a bunch of summer jobs. So, um, and a few work experiences at insurance companies as well, yeah, so yeah so yeah, so the first first role I got was in.
Speaker 1:It was directly into financial services, but in in broking which, well, I'm interested getting that job was that cold applications, boom application sit down, and that was it basically.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and in fairness. So I've said to you before I've said there's no manual. Is there when you live sport? There's no manual, so there's no textbook where you go. If you do this, do this, this will happen.
Speaker 2:And I was very conscious to kind of not talk about swimming. So I thought I want to do this on merit, which is is on reflection of stupid weight, I think, to approach it Because it was a point of difference. And if I was speaking to someone now about a role and they were telling me they were a former international athlete, I'd be saying there's something about you. That's a really good point of difference. So don't get me wrong. If people ask me, I'd talk about it, but I just wouldn't lead with it, which is probably okay. But I was just very conscious I want to be selected on merit. One thing that I didn't do that I would definitely do now is I didn't really look, not that I had any kind of relationships to leverage in the financial services world, but I didn't really reach out to anyone to say, look, can you put me in front of this person?
Speaker 2:or can you connect with this person? Because I thought that's asking for a favor, whereas now I'd be saying no, just build your networks, just ask for a coffee with someone, you don't have to ask them for a job, but ask them for a coffee and just try and build your networks that way. It's about having that coffee meeting, which doesn't necessarily lead to a sale or to an interview, but it's just you're building your networks and trying to build your brand, if you like that's right.
Speaker 1:I mean it's interesting to listen to you there because you talk about talent versus attitude, and you had, there was something in you that was well, got you to the level of swimming national champ, got you then thinking about getting roles or, you know, applying for jobs, and it was all attitude. You actually shunned in some respects the talent that made you a national champion and did it well. Attitude now I can do this based on me, don't need to reach out to anyone else.
Speaker 2:Off we go yeah, and and I think it was probably part of my mindset at the time as well of of going cold turkey from swimming so again. When I had that conversation with chris and and said this is it, I was like I couldn't even watch swimming on the tv because it was again, I don't want to say painful, painful, but it made me miss it so much and I knew that there was kind of nothing I could do about it, because I'd made a sensible decision, I hadn't made an emotional decision.
Speaker 2:I made a sensible decision, which is if you want to build a career, you want to have a house, you want to have a car, you want to, you know, be able to set yourself. I thought why do I wanna watch Olympic trials or the Olympics?
Speaker 1:and go.
Speaker 2:I'd love to be out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So look, you entered the financial services world in the UK, turned your back on swimming. Let's fast forward. Where were you?
Speaker 2:What happened for you to think, oh, swimming, I'll come back to it yeah, fast forward, probably 10 years, so it would have been end of 2012. Yeah, so I was by now over here over here being moved to sydney sydney, yeah, and obviously there's a.
Speaker 2:There's another story in there for um, anyone that's ever interested in in the uh, in the follow-up uh session that we'll do of how I got to sydney. But yeah, so I came back to the the sports in in 20 end of 2012 and during that time I'd to my point earlier. I'd resumed my footballing endeavors not anywhere at the level you're at, mate, so I won't uh, I won't try and compare myself, but I was playing and one of the first things I did when I came to australia was find a football team, as, again, I don't think it's uncommon is it for brits.
Speaker 2:So I found a team, started playing again. So I played for a good sort of two or three years and then I was lifting weights, I was running, met my girlfriend who became my fiance, who's now my wife and mother of three children, and we had this life where we were both in the, in the similar industry, both doing sports and stuff. But I kind of just felt that I couldn't quite figure. It took me ages to figure it out and and another story is I even had a, an amateur boxing fight in the uk before I left. So, again, put all these things together, yeah, and that was a great process to go through, the whole training and I, yeah, swimming, mindset to that and cutting weight, all that kind of stuff, and, um, I got to a point in about 2012 actually hold on hold on this.
Speaker 1:This boxing bit is is completely new.
Speaker 2:Sorry, you've just you've derailed the whole conversation, so so, just where did that come in, probably what eventually got me back into swimming, because I was I was at clausel bank in the uk at the time and I was playing football and I thought you know what? I missed the performance side. So playing football it's a game, it's a team event. But I could. It didn't force or I didn't feel like it felt me. I didn't feel like it forced me to stay in shape. I felt like, if I could, I do training once a week lift or run or whatever and then play the weekend. But if I was feeling a bit tired during the game, I just wouldn't run as much. I think I need something that's going to really focus that I know I have to train for Okay, because if I don't train I could get seriously injured, you'll get hit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now my father, despite being an executive in the insurance industry, boxed a university in India. My grandfather on my mum's side was an ex-professional boxer for the council in southeast London, so the council paid him to box. Okay, jack, the blonde bombshell, doyle. So I kind of because I knew about each of them, I kind of thought I've got to do this at some point. So this point came. I was like I need something to really focus on mine, so, um, to train on, to focus my training. So I thought, right, I'll do this. So I'll start training with the university of portsmouth boxing club. They were mainly students but anyone could box there because they were a registered ABC. So, yeah, started training. After a few months the coach said, yeah, got your fight. And then that fight happened to be about a month before. No, not even a month, probably two weeks before I got on the plane for Australia.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it was a brilliant experience to go through. I was basically fighting Ivan Drago from Rocky IV. It was because I was heavyweight, so I'm 6'2". I think I've mentioned you once before. I'm probably a bit too short for a sprint swimmer. I think most of the sprint swimmers were at 6'4 or above and this guy would have been about 6'5".
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking I don't know how I'm going to get near him because of his reach. But yeah, and it was, we were the home team team. So it's at university of portsmouth in their nightclub. 400 people there 399 of them, all supporting every. There was 12 fighters on the on the card, with raucous support from students and friends and family and my football team and entrance music as you walk out. You like the spectacle?
Speaker 1:it's not just the performance, it's the spectacle.
Speaker 2:I think it's the fear that going in there, going, I've got to turn up prepared, I've got to turn up having done the work, I've got to have made the weight, all these kinds of things, and then walking out there and to the end, you know my entrance music was fire, started by the prodigy and you know that's really getting the um you know, under the lights and everything. So yes, it was awesome. So I have to ask the outcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did knock him out, yes, okay, oh, knockout, not just points.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, which with a punch after the, after the fight, the coach said to me I told you to just jab straight shots, straight shots, and this was left hook. Yeah, fantastic, which came out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah so again, this, this theme, it's that sharpened edge, it's the that need for competition, but yeah, you can't just coast yeah, exactly so the what really got me back.
Speaker 2:I got to. So, yeah, my wife and I were doing sports and I was still playing football, but I thought it's actually, it's the competition part I miss. So I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to swim 10 times a week, so what else can I do where I compete? So I I joined, very briefly, a running club, a track club, and trained for 100 meters and did about a month of that, did my, my first race and the. I just remember the night before I just loved going through the process because I was just trying to replicate the process that I did when I was swimming you good meal.
Speaker 2:You stretch the night before and getting you going through the race plan, going through the race strategy.
Speaker 2:Get up in the morning have a little light run have another stretch and it just reminded me of my god, I just love this process. Did the race? Okay? I was like it was. It was a master's race, about fourth in my race or something like that, but the time is actually not too bad, for from memory was it about high 11s or something like that. I remember that's not too bad. And then sort of it was just on my mind for the rest of the day and went out to dinner with erin, my wife, that night, and I just said, oh, you know, I just really love that and and I just love going through the process. And literally the next day I was like why am I bothering with running and trying to make myself into a runner? So I found a club, swimming club. I was just like I need to get back into swimming, what I'm doing, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, stumbled upon just through local geographical convenience carlisle as in the world famous swimming organization founded by forbes, nursio, carlisle and um joined their masters team and started swimming.
Speaker 2:Masters did a few months of that and it was like being an age grouper again because I was coming off such a low but 10 years out of the water so it was like starting from scratch again and started competing about two or three months after that, obviously with the expectation that first race I'm going to be back at my old times from 10 years ago, which wasn't the case. It was actually quite good. Then went to masters nationals, I think, won three events there or something in my age group and then thought okay, and then the times were starting to come down. So it's like being an age grouper again where when you're 12, every time you swim it's a pb sort of thing. The coach was coaching me for the masters guy said oh, you know, you should maybe go and beat to the national squad, the carlisle national squad. Go speak to justin rothwell, who's still a friend now. He said we should, we should try and get your training over there.
Speaker 2:And I thought that sounds like a good idea I should go from four hours a week to uh well, I didn't get. I probably didn't get as high as 10, but I got up to about eight or nine hours a week.
Speaker 1:So with this. So you talk about it been like being an age grouper again, where you're getting pbs, everything. How did that start to motivate you?
Speaker 2:the thrill of getting faster each time was just I thought it's not going to be a thrill because I'm still going to be off my times from 10 years ago. Then I started to real and and I had the benchmark of that first time in the 100 free or whatever and thinking, okay, that was pretty bad. But then the next race was quicker. I was like, okay. So it was like this is a different kind of thrill because I'm I'm way off where I was 10 years ago, but I'm getting faster.
Speaker 2:So that and again I spoke about earlier about breaking down the race right into the different components. I could probably break down racing itself in terms of what it means to me, as well as an extension of that. So I, like you know people talk about I love winning. I love the sensation of of speed. So I love the feeling of diving off the block, entering the water, particularly when you've peaked for an event and you've shaved and you just slip through the water like a hot knife through butter. So I love that sensation of of speed, of your your underwater kicks and popping up to the surface with a with a strong breakout stroke, bombing down the first length of the pool, bouncing off the tent. So I love that feeling of speed. So, yes, I love touching the wall in front of other people as well.
Speaker 2:I love hitting certain times, but the thrill of the speed is a big part of it for me as well. And depending on how deep we want to get into this, you know I like jumping out of planes and putting the parachute cord and I like bungee jumping. So I don't know, maybe there's something in there like that. I won't talk about driving the car fast because that would be inappropriate and illegal, but you know, so I think, I think that's, that's part of it as well so it was a thrill that I wasn't expecting, because I'm thinking if I'm not going to be anywhere near my time from 10 years ago, what's the point?
Speaker 2:but, then I started to chip away and then the master's coach said yeah, you should maybe speak to the um. He said I'll speak to him for you, give you an intro. And in the end I sort of didn't need an intro because he said oh, you should swim at that event, which is an open event, not a Masters event. What do you mean by open?
Speaker 1:versus Masters.
Speaker 2:So all age groups, so basically the younger guys, so the guys in their sort of 20s, as opposed to Masters, where you're in your 25 to 29 age group, or 30 to 35, et cetera.
Speaker 2:So I'm at an open event where I've been told that the head coach of the carlisle national squad would be there and brian, the coach of masters, has said oh, justin's gonna be there, I'll tell him you're gonna be there, he'll see you anyway, go and have a chat and maybe he'll he'll tell he's coming along and train with the, with the national squad. So, as luck would have it, I just swam quite well in the whatever it was, the hundred fly, I think. I picked up a bronze at this, this event, and beat a few of the younger guys on in that squad. So I stood out, partly because I'm right, partly because I was 15 years older than everyone else that was competing. So I was going to say there's people looking at the start sheet going you know 2000 birthday, 2000 birthday, you know 76 birthday.
Speaker 2:Who's this guy? You know? So, yeah, off the back of that met with uh, justin rothwell. He said, yeah, look, come along and train with us. And yeah, so the Masters had gone better than I hoped, and then it just, I guess, gave me that door back into, I guess, swimming at an elite level as well.
Speaker 1:How did you balance that additional swim training or desire with?
Speaker 2:a job. There's a couple of answers to that and it's funny because it seems harder now, because I'm not doing that now, although I'm still in the water now in a different capacity, in the capacity I never thought it would be are you just doing a couple of sessions a week? So at the time there was probably that element of. I know this isn't going to last forever, so I'm just going to see how far I can take this and I gave myself an arbitrary goal of I'm going to try and get back to my when I started swimming with justin now, bearing in mind I wasn't doing 20 hours a week, but I was just about scratching maybe eight hours. Let's say, what does eight hours look like in a week? Yeah, so that would have been.
Speaker 2:All of their sessions were two hours. I generally couldn't do the two hours in the morning, for example, because I'd have to get out and go to work. So I'd do five till six thirty in the morning, so be there at 4 45 to get up before everything. So five to six thirty, I think I did. Did I do three of those? Saturday morning was two30, I think I did. Did I do three of those? Saturday morning was two hours and I think I could scrape together maybe one evening.
Speaker 1:So it was about seven or eight hours a week, and so what was your job at that?
Speaker 2:time, so similar to what I'm doing now. How I managed to make it work was so this is pre-kid, so Erin was pregnant with our eldest, lockie, at the time. So it was so. We didn't have to negotiate daycare drop-offs or school drop-offs and no one in the financial services industry was working at 4 15, so it's kind of okay. So the mornings I could just about do cobble together one evening, and if I, if I couldn't, it kind of didn't matter, because I do the sunday. So it was anywhere from, let's say, six to eight hours, which don't get me wrong, was still a struggle because I was still traveling with work as well well, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:So did you need concessions from your boss leading a team? What were the expectations?
Speaker 2:believe, it or not, it didn't other than my exhaustion. It didn't really impact my day job and, if anything, it probably enhanced it because it gave me this fantastic change of gear. Now at the moment, just the thought of that stresses me out. But at the time it gave me this change of gear, when I was in the pool or I was thinking about was the session. Then, when I was at work, I was like I know what I've done this morning and I I feel empowered by that because I've put myself through. I can turn up into any meeting or any scenario where I've been up for three or four hours. So I'm already fresh as a daisy. There's no kind of building into the day. I'm ready to go and hit the ground running.
Speaker 2:I sort of used it as a way to empower me. It would get hard about three o'clock in the afternoon because I'm sort of thinking I've nearly been up for 12 hours on days where I was traveling interstate. That was a write-off for training, yeah, but for the most part I I made it work and and it sort of then became the point of difference in client meetings, for example, or meetings internally. That I'd probably figured out how to use. That I hadn't figured out earlier in my career, so I was using it in such a way that probably didn't sound like I was big, noting myself, which is what I was always just conscious of okay, talk about swimming like I'm.
Speaker 2:I've done this and I've done this I never wanted to do that, but this allowed me to. People sort of knew about it, and then people would then say, oh, do you know he he's been up for 12 hours today, and then the conversation was starting. It kind of became a nice little sort of point of difference with with clients.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, I mean it's interesting listening to you and the story and sort of a strong theme that comes through this is it is a humility. It's a humility about what you have achieved as an athlete. At some points that humility almost is accidental because you just ignored it. It's like it didn't even happen, it's not relevant whatsoever, but it is being humble about what that success is.
Speaker 2:But it does seem like you've recognized the attitude it took to achieve that success and that's what you've picked up and brought with you throughout your professional, your corporate career yeah, and again, it seems a lot easier now look older, wiser, hopefully you start to then piece together the the jigsaw a bit, you know, and there's certain things that I can recall from like an odd thing or a random thing that a coach maybe said you know 20 years ago which I'm now going, oh yeah, that I don't know whether that informed me or whether I'm just piecing it together now and I go right after 23 years in the corporate world. I'm now just pretending that that meant something and that it's kind of influenced me. I don't know An example a coach of mine in university where I in the first year I was there about to get into a set and he introduced the set and said oh, good coach is a good thief, and that phrase always stuck with me and he meant it tongue-in-cheek. What he was prefacing is we were just about to do a set that alexander popoff had gone through. That he read online or something, and alexander popoff at the time was the. I think at the time he would have been the reigning olympic champion for the 103 and he was the world record holder. So he was like good coach, good thief, we're going to do what alex popoff did in the set the other day, and so we were all excited oh, yeah, we're going to do what pop off did. And.
Speaker 2:But even that kind of casual phrase there, I thought that's actually something I've probably used subconsciously in my career, right, because what it means is well, don't be afraid to replicate what others have done and use that in your day-to-day activities. You know. So, if something has succeeded for others, should you use it? Absolutely, I think earlier in my career I thought, oh, being a being a leader means you have to have all the answers. It means you can never be wrong, because that would be seen as as weakness or a lack of credibility, yeah, or create a lack of credibility.
Speaker 2:And um, yeah, you've got to have all the answers and everything you do has to be your own idea, whereas now probably just I don't know, maybe again just a bit older and wise. It's like, well, if you're just replicating the posh way of saying it, or copying the true way of saying, yeah, someone else has done this work, what's wrong with that? Yeah, you're trying to get a, an outcome, right? So, um, and the other thing is the fear of failure is is something that I'm very aware of, because that's something that you do. You fail in swimming not just every week, it's every session. That's kind of the nature of the training. It's designed to break your body down so that then, when you come back for the next session, your body is effectively very simple terms is stronger.
Speaker 1:I guess. So yeah, I've never really thought about it in that way, but you are as an athlete, especially as a swimmer I'm going to put rowing there as well is you're pushing yourself to the point of failure, that physical exhaustion, and then you get back up and do it again, and then swimming later, later in the same day, exactly. Yeah Right. And so when you look then at your I guess your corporate career, now your professional career, what traits do you think you brought with you from the pool?
Speaker 2:So I think it's, I try and look at things again through that lens of tenacity, sacrifice and attitude and I think, if I can always just you know, remember that, then that you know you can apply that to kind of any walk of life, you can apply that to your career. So I try to do that. You can apply that to kind of any walk of life, you can apply that to your career. So I try to do that. I think, in terms of the business units that I run, teams I lead, I try and look through the prism of right. There's goals and objectives that we have to hit and look. I'm in a customer-facing, commercial part of the business and generally always have been so. Either all or a component of my KPIs are generally around financials, right.
Speaker 1:So it's around financial performance.
Speaker 2:So, again, look probably not dissimilar to swimming, because it's black and white You've either hit the number or you haven't. You've either exceeded the number or you haven't. So I guess I have to balance up the financial performance, the expectations and objectives of our, in my current role, the owners and internal stakeholders and shareholders, our customers, our customer partnerships, and my team, our team, and so you're trying to kind of, and those objectives can be conflicting sometimes. So I try and look at it just through the prism of okay, let's take a performance approach and an ethics-based approach to everything. And if you can and those are my anchor words yeah. So if you, every decision you make, you try and put through those that it's almost like a filter, yeah, so if it's a tip to both, it's the right decision and so anchor words.
Speaker 1:This is a thing where what you you talked about your your use of these anchor words yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So again, probably similar to then. You know tenacity and sacrifice and attitude. So again, it's all right. Well, if I'm they're kind of like umbrella words, anchor words to go right. If it's a tick to all of those, I've probably done the right thing. So I don't have to get into the detail of but what are the specific activities that I have to do and what are the specific activities that I have to do and what are the specific things I need to say and what are the specific actions and and what's the specific plan over the coming days, weeks and months.
Speaker 2:If every decision I make is under that umbrella, then it's probably the right decision.
Speaker 2:Doesn't mean you'll get the right outcome.
Speaker 2:The swimming example, then, is when I'm standing behind the block.
Speaker 2:If I was to think about my race then, well, for a start it would take too long, secondly, it confused myself and, thirdly, probably wouldn't have a great outcome, whereas if I have a couple of anchor words where I go right on the first length, 100 meters so the first 50 of the hundred, I need to think about easy speed. So I've got a good dive in to water, and then easy speed, and what that means is you're basically still going as fast as you can, but you're trying to keep your muscles loose, so you're trying to keep your arms and shoulders loose, you're trying to keep your legs, you're not over revving your arms, you're not burning out your legs and then the second 50 come back hard and that's where you then bring in your back end speed. So just the just some anchor words, so that I went. So, rather than thinking about the whole race during the race, I'm just thinking about those two or three things, and I think it's similar in business, in those examples you just gave.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because the thing about swimming is it's an individual race. What you've done, you've given yourself, I guess, the guiding principles to help you execute it perfectly, without overthinking. Yeah, in the same way, you're using those anchor words from a business or from a team perspective now, and that's perhaps to what extent do you think it supports your team in understanding? Well, actually, I know what greg wants. If I'm achieving these two values principles, then I'm on the right track I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I think the so again, if we break, if I break down the race, and it's the. You know what I said earlier. It's about the. It's the reactions to the dive, it's the dive height, it's the dive angle of. It's about the reactions to the dive, it's the dive height, it's the dive angle of entry, it's then the streamline position, et cetera.
Speaker 2:So in business, that's like the strategic plan. So the strategic plan is right. Well, what are the company values and objectives? What does that then mean to our customers, our stakeholders, our owners? And then what are the activities that we need to do beneath that? So that's the detail part of it and that's got the specific activities that we need to do and we need to go through. But then, on a day-to-day basis, what are the things that can just remind me of kind of all of that in a couple of key words where I go right, yeah, that's what I need to do in this situation, possibly how my mind works I don't know if that's what's saying. It's the, a way that probably just keeps me on track without having to go through. Well, yeah, reading the strategic plan every day, for example, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a way that has brought you success and, I guess, for those watching and listening to your point, if somebody wants to try and emulate a similar type of success, it's recognizing the use of these value, words or principles and how they might support you. When you think, then, of other swimmers or athletes who are coming through their professional career, their swimming career, and they know it's going to come to an end at some point, using your experience, what guidance would you give them on how to best prepare for their second wind in life?
Speaker 2:so one of the things I did again I don't think I leveraged my swimming achievements, if you like, at the time again, I think it was for valid reasons. I didn't want to big note myself. I wanted anything that I achieved. I wanted it to be on merit. I think what I would encourage anyone to do now would be look, start to try and build your networks Now. That's probably easier to do now than it would have been in 2002, because in 2002, LinkedIn was probably just becoming a thing. I may not have been facebook around. I even think facebook was around. So today it's. It's easy to look, it's easy to look people up.
Speaker 2:It's easy to reach out to people. So I think if I was having my time again now, I'd probably be reaching out to former swimmers definitely to swimmers who I knew were in the financial services world and just saying, look, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Can you, you know, can we meet, have a coffee? Because I thought at the time, I think I thought at the time, oh, I don't want to ask them for a favor, we don't have to just have a chat. Have a chat, try and understand what it is they do and you might learn something, you might actually get some some valuable intel out of the conversation. So I think, reach out to people, try and build your networks, try and inform yourself. So again, I think I I probably did a decent job of researching stuff, but again, I think, without that kind of networking side, there's so much you can read yeah in terms of trying to prepare for that next step.
Speaker 2:Look, I think a big thing is just don't be afraid to fail, because, again, as a as an athlete, you're doing that on a daily basis, which is I think that's something I've taken with me into my career as well which is don't fear failure. Failure is an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to be better, to do things in a different way, builds resilience. I mean that, without overstating, you're going through adversity kind of every day. So you're going through that, that failure, every day, so that that hundred butterfly when you race yeah, it's going to hurt, but it's probably not going to hurt as much because you've actually prepared yourself yeah and I think just you alluded to earlier.
Speaker 2:So the the preparation that you need to go through as an athlete. You just kind of do it automatically when you're a 12, 13, 14 year old, because your coach tells you to your parents, tell you to you get into the, into your working world. You realize, oh, that what I was actually doing is I was preparing for something, I was getting myself ready for something, and those are skills that are obviously invaluable when you're in your working life. So I think it's the keep yourself informed, try and build your networks, don't be afraid to ask questions, because it doesn't mean you don't have the answers, it just means you're just seeking intel and advice.
Speaker 2:I think don't feel like you need to know everything from day one in order to land that first opportunity. So I think that was the other thing I was always very conscious of. It was like oh well, they're going to expect the finished article in my first role as a broker and planner. You're getting this role because they know you've just come from uni yeah, so yeah, that's really good and I guess, to conclude your story in many respects when you're coming back into masters.
Speaker 1:The lessons that you've given there are certainly for someone who is, I guess, leaving that first career in many respects and looking to get into a more traditional marketplace for you. You exited swimming, went into that traditional marketplace while staying in traditional workforce. You then went back in at a master's level, achieved success at a master's level. I should let you say, as humble as you are, what did you achieve in master swimming?
Speaker 2:so I won nationals the that year. I came back whatever. That was 13. I think the most exciting part was when I then transitioned then to the national squad and started going to national events and that was where I was reunited with my coach from from portsmouth, who at the time was coaching it for a gold coast team, is now he's now the head coach at carlisle, but we missed each other. So he yeah, I'd already left by the time he took that post and yeah, just did had about four or five years of of competing at national level again in in this country, which is fantastic. So the that kind of um, almost like finger in the air goal of I'm gonna try and get back to my times of 10 years ago then started to become like a, an actual possibility yeah, and I got close I didn't quite get there, but I got to within 0.6 of my 50 butterfly time so, uh, so they were right.
Speaker 1:What was the driving force for you to transition out of that nationals or that master's level into the into recreational swimming? Now, coming from national inter and saying maybe my time's done again, yeah, it's probably covid actually, so yeah, well, so yes you can say family. It just changed the whole thing.
Speaker 2:I so I, in that first year of the swimming comeback, my wife was pregnant with with my first, with my eldest, and when he was born, my daughter was then born 19 months after. The goal then became I've got to keep this up because, I want them to see me swim.
Speaker 2:And then our third was born a couple years later, so I've got to keep this up because I want him to see me soon. So I just thought what? What a great example I can say if they can. If they can see me doing something as a, as their dad, it's gonna be a great example for them. So I would have kept going until about 19 to 2019, and then through a combination of, I think by 2019 we had one in daycare and two at school, or two in daycare and one at school, or something. So what had previously been doable, which was yes, well, when we were no kids, it was easy to to get to training.
Speaker 2:Then when we had one kid but erin was on mat leave, that was okay, yeah. Then when we had one kid, erin was back at work, that was still okay, because I would take son to daycare on the way to to work and daycare was right near the office. That was fine. Even with two it was fine. Even with three it was okay. It was when it got to kids in different locations. That's when the training started to wane. And then, yeah, and then COVID hit.
Speaker 1:So it was waning before COVID. But yeah, I think it's great because typically it's as athletes, it's your physical, your own physical ability that starts to tell you okay, my time's done. I think what's great for your story here, when it's masters, it's actually no hold on. There's all these kids all over the place. This isn't just my physical, isn't my decision anymore, but those priorities shift.
Speaker 1:But I think what, what is great, and you know thanks for coming in and you know sharing that journey, because it really does emphasize, as I listen to you, that what you got from sport was that excitement, that need to put yourself right onto that, that pressure point for that spectacle to really happen. And so for you, throughout your career, your professional career, you found it again, be it in boxing, be it football, be it getting back into master swimming and I think now in sort of leadership, still looking for those positions. I also like the sort of principles or anchor words that you use, which not only guided you to elite performance as an athlete, but certainly helping you and your team to continue to perform now and, coupled with this humility and this sort of commercial approach is, you know, again, probably very similar to your dad in terms of being in that office and being respected and moving things forward.
Speaker 2:And probably one big thing, and sorry to your point around athletes transitioning, and this is a really big one and it's so. I found this in in multiple aspects of my life. But, um, it's putting yourself in that environment which, as an athlete, you'll probably do all the time. It's putting yourself in that environment where you're surrounded by quote-unquote good people or people that are better than you, whether it's at swimming or whether it's in business or whatever. And so for me, that that moment was going to hawaii. Well, firstly north carolina and then hawaii, because I've gone from being uh, I'm not gonna say big fish in a small pond, because you know, the club I trained with was, was an elite club, but you go to university of hawaii, for example, and everyone there is national champion in their own country and there's they're from multiple countries all over the world.
Speaker 2:Everyone is, you know people are going to, you know olympics, commonwealths and everything. So the first sort of challenge is you know you've got to. Firstly, you've got to keep up and not embarrass yourself and then it's like, okay, then chipping away to go right, how do I now not just keep up but be a leader in this team and and stand out? So I had to try and have that mindset in north carolina, in university of y and then, and then in business as well. So I think anyone coming in, leaving their career and going into their, their working career, try and get yourself in that environment where you know you are out of your comfort zone because it's going to build resilient, it's going to really teach you about yourself and then call upon the memories that you had as an athlete, because they are relevant and they're transferable memories and skills.
Speaker 2:I think and um, I've always tried to do that and so, to your point, around the you know, the mentoring and and the networking of you know, where possible, I try and do it in my day job and I'm happy to say to want or need to be the smartest person in the room, don't want to be, want to have people around me who are going to teach me things and and from whom I can learn. I wouldn't have had that mindset when I was first in the working world, because I've like, oh, you couldn't say that you can't. You know, you surely need to be the smartest person in the room, don't you? Because if not, you'll lose credibility. I've got no issues with not being the smartest person which is good, actually, because it's often the case but, um, there's a lot to learn. Situations, absolutely, and, and I think, and in the same way that you know, rising side lifts all ship. So it's put yourself in those environments where you're out of your comfort zone and, um, test yourself, build resilience and and learn brilliant, greg.
Speaker 1:Once again, thanks for coming in today and sharing your story. Absolutely loved it. Absolute pleasure, thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the second win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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