Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
Former professional footballer Ryan Gonsalves dives deep into the unique challenges and triumphs of transitioning from elite sports to fulfilling careers. Through candid conversations with athletes, the Career Clarity Podcast explores their inspiring journeys, uncovering lessons on identity, resilience, and reinvention. Whether you're an athlete or simply seeking inspiration for your next chapter, this podcast will empower you to unleash your second wind.
Ryan Gonsalves transitioned from professional football with Huddersfield Town in the English Footbaal League, to a career in financial services by leveraging his adaptability, transferable skills, and willingness to embrace new opportunities.
While playing semi-professional football, he pursued education and began working at GE Money Capital Bank, where he gained global experience and developed expertise in Lean Six Sigma and process improvement. His sports background often helped him stand out during interviews, creating memorable connections with hiring managers.
Later, Ryan joined HSBC in Hong Kong, where he worked for nearly a decade in consumer banking, focusing on global projects such as researching homeownership behaviors. His ability to understand consumer insights and behavior became a cornerstone of his success in the financial sector. After over 20 years in banking (including back in Australia at AMP, Westpac, COmmenwealth Bank and NSW Treasury, Ryan transitioned into career coaching, inspired by helping fellow athletes navigate their post-sports careers.
Ready to take the next step? Connect with Ryan at letschat@2ndwind.io.
Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
146: Jess Borg - How the Olympic dream led to unexpected career paths and a mission to help other athletes
What happens when an 8-year-old’s Olympic dream doesn’t pan out? For Jess, a former elite taekwondo and boxing athlete, it meant reinventing herself—twice—while battling concussions, identity crises, and the harsh realities of transitioning out of sports.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
- How a diagnosis of low muscle tone led her to taekwondo, and why she became the kid opponents feared
- The brutal truth about combat sports: why concussions in taekwondo went unchecked for years
- Her shocking career pivot: from taekwondo to boxing (and why she almost became the first Aussie to compete in both at the highest level)
- Why she traded kicks for contracts: how a law degree became her backup plan (and turned into a passion)
- The loneliness of elite sports: missing friendships, "normal" uni life, and why athletes struggle post-retirement
- Her new mission: building "Next," a platform helping athletes navigate life after sports
💎 GOLDEN NUGGET:
"It’s okay to grieve your sport. It’s a loss. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise." – Jess
WHO SHOULD LISTEN?
✔ Athletes thinking about life after sports
✔ Anyone facing a major career pivot
✔ Coaches/parents supporting young competitors
✔ Fans of underdog stories & personal reinvention
Loved the episode? Drop us a review & share your biggest takeaway!
Ready to explore your own second act after sport? Connect with Ryan Gonsalves and the 2NDWind Academy to discover how your athletic experience can become your professional advantage here: www.2ndwind.io
This journey to even make it to the Olympics is really pulling your 24 hours a day, 168 hours in a week. It's really trying to stretch you as far as possible, to put things in. So when you were there and you were like, oh my gosh, I didn't you had that talk. You were speaking with someone who was helping you recognize the entirety of your world. What did you do? What was next?
Speaker 2:It was working out. Everyone says to me oh my God, like you need to slow down, like you're too busy, there needs to be time for you in the day. But at that time I was like no, I jammed every hour with something to benefit me in the future.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Jess, welcome to the show. Great to have you join me on All that Is Career Clarity with Athletes, on this Second Wind Academy podcast. Looking forward to delving a bit into your story, learning a bit more about you.
Speaker 2:No, thank you so much for having me. It's an exciting topic to talk about and I'm just keen to have this chat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome and actually really cool is, I suppose, what you're working on at the moment in terms of your new business, your new venture. But I am deeply fascinated about how you've even managed to get to this point, because you've managed to cram a lot into your, I guess into your both sporting and academic and professional career so far. So there's going to be quite a lot for us to try and unpack today. So, to get us started, I guess why not start with the present? Why not talk a bit about what you're doing now and where you're trying to get to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:So I retired from sport in December last year, which was obviously the wildest identity shift that one person could probably experience.
Speaker 2:And after that, before that, before retirement, I finished my law degree and started my practical legal training and, you know, this year finished my practical legal training, so getting ready to be admitted and, you know, start my professional, professional life outside of sport and that's been a really exciting journey and working in that field and that's, you know, part I'm passionate about, that's not just sport but at the same time, you know, still engaging in the sporting realm and coaching at my own club and that I, you know, trained at under the same coach. And then also, at the same time, I've experienced this identity shift from retiring and gone through all the emotions and the experiences that you know that come with that and some challenges faced, and started developing my own little athlete transition site called Next. And that's fun. Chatting to athletes and having the conversation about transition from sport or even thinking about life after sport while you're competing has been such an eye opening experience and something I never really thought I'd even touch into.
Speaker 1:No, which in itself is quite amazing, because you've mentioned their retirement from sport. You've mentioned law degrees, practicing and moving down that, and now you're even talking about what's next and sort of your platform about athlete transition. So tell me, just for curious, there the bits that we haven't covered are when you say retired from sport, which sport do you mean?
Speaker 2:So I was for most part of my life a taekwondo athlete. So I represented Australia on the world stage in taekwondo. I started when I was six. I was diagnosed with low muscle tone. I grew up in a small town, in Bundy, and the options that were given to me were start swimming or what a martial arts or something what do you mean by low? Oh, it's common. It's nothing scary. Lots of kids have it um young kids develop low muscle.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I've never I I swear I've never heard it, at least I've not been aware that I've heard of it well, mom and dad weren't either, but they were told.
Speaker 2:You know it's something common, it's not nothing scary, it's where, for example, simple example you know ruling a margin in your book at school, in your workbook, and you know you hold your ruler down with one hand, you bring your pen across with the other, and you know they have to work together, cognitively and physically. For me it was a train wreck. My bring my pen across and this hand would go walk about, the line would end up being rounded. It was a disaster. So something just so simple like that, or even monkey bars I've only been able to do them up till the last couple of years.
Speaker 1:I think I could do them for about a year in my life, honestly, and then so I couldn't do them. Maybe for a year I was good enough to do them, and definitely not somewhere I'm at anymore. So that one's okay, but okay, I get it. Yeah, so from your, I'll say, motor skills in my mind, but that your movements there were somewhat challenging as well, that's yeah fascinating, but and then you get into sport, so you got into taekwondo clearly at a very young age as well yeah, so I did.
Speaker 2:It was kind of I grew up in bundaberg, a small town in the wide bay in queensland, kind of in the middle of queensland, um, on the coastline, gorgeous town but not many options in terms of sport and again, another random tangent, just because the timing that we're doing, uh, the show.
Speaker 1:often, when I do the shows in the evening, my evening drink is ginger beer, and it would be a Bundaberg ginger beer, so that's the best. Yeah, we've only ever spoken about you being in Brisbane. So the fact now we're getting into it being Bundaberg, now I'm like, ah, ok, now I know why we're on. Jess, this makes this makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, Bundaberg Gingerbeer, it's the best, superior in the Gingerbeer realm. Yeah, it's an awesome town, great products.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say so, you as a product of that town of Bundaberg. I think what's already super interesting is that you've got this. We're going to go into these two sports. So you're just starting to talk about you being a product of Bundaberg. I'm interested, then, about what sport meant to you and and how sport became a key part of your life as you were growing up yeah, well, I guess sport was.
Speaker 2:It began as a, I guess, a therapy for this thing that I had and learning to ride again learning as a. You know I was such a quiet, not confident kid, still, you know, happy-go-lucky young girl. But in that school and in that environment, you know, it was quite difficult, bullying and all those sorts of things. But when I went to Taekwondo or, you know, even just played footy or something like that, I was happy and comfortable and I was good at it, I was confident, and it brought out this different side that not many people got to see. And so it. It was a, you know, a good relief, a good therapy.
Speaker 1:And then, as the years went on, it became, you know my thing, my identity, effectively and when you're growing up doing taekwondo, at what point did you start to realize you were good at this and you might be able to take you somewhere?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh. Well, in the first the coach my coach from the club in Bundy, big role in my life he played he said to my mom and dad oh my goodness, what did you bring me? Like legs were flying everywhere. He was like what? I don't know if I can fix this, but we're going to try. And so it took a long while.
Speaker 2:And then come up to one of my first ever fights and I remember just so Taekwondo. During the fight and during training or this thing, you speak a lot of Korean, so we have this thing called a kia and that means yell. And so before you start a fight you just go like they look at your opponent and you bow, and they go fighting stance and kia, so fighting stance and yell. And I just remember going, just yelling like this small little pocket rocket let out this massive yell and girls would walk off the mat. They'd be like I'm not doing this again, like that's enough and and and.
Speaker 2:From there that become like I was known as the kid with grit, the kid with a bit of aggression. You know, girls at that age couldn't hit as hard as I could hit, or they weren't as strong, they weren't as fast and people would stop fighting me or they'd pull out, or they'd see my name in the drawer and they'd go. You know what? Not today. So when that started happening, started clicking, I'm like and like oh yeah, this is actually my thing. You know, be quite good at this. Sport doesn't see too many young girls with that kind of aggression and and aggression is the right word it was just like pure fight in in them yeah, and what did you enjoy yourself?
Speaker 1:what do you enjoy about taekw you?
Speaker 2:enjoy about Taekwondo. I enjoy Taekwondo because it's like boxing, any combat sport it's not about the fighting, it's not about, you know, I'm going in there to fight someone. It's a chess game. You are tactical, you know every move you do has a counter move, so it's working out. You know, okay, I'm going to go here, but I want to be three steps ahead and it's just about having to use your mind, but you're doing this really cool thing that not many people can do and I loved that side of it. But also, like I think any athlete will say, their sport takes you all around the world, and by 21,.
Speaker 1:I'd been to 21 countries and it was just an amazing journey and experience yeah, it does sound wonderful like say that that travel, and it's something I certainly believe in with sport it gets you around. You know, super interesting hearing you there describe the fact that the fighting, the taekwondo, it's not about the fight, it's not about that the impact and the hitting, but it is a more like a game of chess. It's not about the fight, it's not about that the impact and the hitting, but it is a more like a game of chess. It's a strategic and a strategic game. When you uh, you know what sounds like you were drawn to it more because, like you say, it was a bit of therapy, it was somewhere for you to to learn to get control of your body and move forward. When you you talk about starting to be good at it, about what age did you think, hey, this can become a passport around the world, this is somewhere where I can travel. I've got something here yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is, and for a lot of people they go, oh really. But 2008 I went to my first national championships and I was eight years old and we competed at sydney olympic stadium and mom and dad came and sydney olymp, sydney Olympics. Lauren Burns won her first, like one, first and only ever Olympic medal at that Olympics in Taekwondo, which was wild in our sport. We haven't won one since. So going there was super cool and I didn't know the history behind it. Mum and dad and my coaches were telling you know, I'm eight years old. I was just we're telling you know I'm eight years old. I was just woo, we're travelling.
Speaker 2:But I got there and mum and dad, they, you know we had a big draw and everyone was kind of just like, oh, we'll take it, fight by fight, whatever happens happens. And I had something like five fights on the day, you know, across the whole day, and I won and I was a little kid from Bundy, national champion and I was getting my medal and the people that gave me my medal were previous Olympians in our sport and I they gave me my gold medal. I'm a Queensland track suit on and and they signed my jacket for me and it was a really cool moment and, being curious kid that I was, you know, I asked mom and dad 100 questions and and who are these people? Why are they talking to me? Why is this a big deal, you know? And they were like, oh well, you just became national champion at eight years old. Like, this is pretty cool. And the people that gave you your medal the best in our country. And so I was like, wow, I could be like that.
Speaker 2:And at this point they were starting to look at you know where Tokyo 2020 and all that sort of thing. Mum's like, oh, you'll be 20 years old. You know it'd be cool. You could, you know, maybe go to the Olympics. I'm like, yeah, I just asked to go to the Olympics and I'll go. I didn't know there was a process behind it at all. You know you pay for the ticket and I'm going to the Olympics, but I kind of went like this is my thing, I want to do it, I'm having so much fun. I could be an Olympian like those guys that gave me the medal and from there, like you know, mum and dad would take me to the comp. We were traveling on the Sunday, competing that Sunday and driving back to Bundaberg that night, to Brisbane and you know 10 hour round trip in the day and I was loving it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, during this time it sounds like you fell in love with the sport and that early bit of a dream began. And you know, so often it is meeting these, meeting the current stars of the game, and when you meet them suddenly you know they sort of inspire you to act and maybe dream a little bit about achieving what they could achieve. So for you, coming through then school, did you, was it then the olympics, and did that become, and how did that become, a bit of a focus for you?
Speaker 2:yeah. So going in through primary school, like I was kind of the. You know we grew up 800 meters from the school. I'd ride school. Everyone knew everyone, everyone knew everyone's backstory and you know I was a bit of a. They were like oh Jess, this is cool, jess is doing this, is doing this. And I wasn't very good at school. I took, I had to put a lot of effort into it. But whereas Taekwondo, you know, it come naturally to me. And so going into high school, I had, you know, I'd get asked the question what do you want to do when you're older? And I'd'd say I'm going to be an Olympian, like full stop, that's it, I want that. And then you know I might go to university and do that at the same time, just in case. But I'm going to be an Olympian and it just kept.
Speaker 1:So when you say you weren't, you know, at school you had to work really hard to sort of make a success. Did that academic pathway seem like something you had to focus on, or that you wanted to focus on as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I always knew that I wanted to, you know, finish to year 12, get a degree, because, you know, I know sport doesn't last forever, and so I was always have something to prepare myself and, you know, be able to I mean, you don't have to get a degree to do that but I always wanted to go to university and be the first in my family to get a university degree, and that I did and I'm so grateful for. But I had to work twice as hard at school as I had to do in my sport, because some kids it comes naturally, some it doesn't, and for me, unfortunately, it was a lot harder.
Speaker 1:But you got through it 100%.
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely I got through. Unfortunately it was a lot harder, but you got through it. 100%. Yeah, absolutely it got through it. It was a lot of push from mum and dad, a lot more so from mum Got to study.
Speaker 1:You mentioned it. What made you want to? Was it you? Was it your parents? What is it that made you want to get a degree? What made you want to be the first in the family to get that bachelor's?
Speaker 2:I think it was a goal that, like mum and dad don't have a degree, they own a farm. They have great careers without a degree. But I always wanted that experience going to uni and I thought that was really cool and I wanted to further my studies a bit more and and school was a challenge and I thought maybe uni could be a bit different in a different learning style, because I did have that in me and I wanted to be again the first in my family. It was a cool little achievement for myself that I was. You know, I was the first one to get a degree.
Speaker 1:So firsts were, I guess, a thing for you that focus, or at least quite goal-oriented that's what I'm picking up here. So going down taekwondo, and then that big view on what I'm doing school to get to uni, to get the degree, because I can do that, you know that opportunity is there. Perhaps it's more as you started hitting high school as much as anything. But what was that struggle like between competing with taekwondo and trying to keep up with school?
Speaker 2:yeah, it was hard and I remember having to prioritize school over taekwondo, but sometimes contradicts each other. Right, you know you have an exam coming up, but I have state selections coming up out in the same week, so it's having to make sure I've got tutoring sessions in to catch up on work that you know I may have missed. Traveling had a study period at school quite early on to help. I was tutoring from primary school all the way through to get that extra assistance, so it was a lot of early mornings, late nights from the beginning really.
Speaker 1:And so from school. Were you at school full-time or did it mean that you would be away because of competing, so you'd then have to use tutors to catch up and do some study overseas or at weird hours?
Speaker 2:Not really for me at that age. I only in year 12 it, and the worst time it hit, it hit um, went to Korea for quite some time and you know, but still trying to keep up with school while you're there and make sure keeping up with that. But I did tutoring as an additional, purely because I genuinely struggled with retaining that information. Yeah, when I got it, I got it, it was great and but just to put in that additional work in the background, so it was more. So I'd go finish school at three, catch the bus straight to tutoring for an hour, then catch the bus straight to training and be there for two hours and then not get home till you know 8.30 at night and then do it all again the next day and how did that feel?
Speaker 2:It was exhausting. You hear lots of stories about different kids at school like, oh, I went to a friend's house on the weekend, or they went away a lot more on holidays with their friends or hung out. So my experience was a lot different because on the weekends I was training or away at comp, which is, I personally wouldn't have changed it for the world, but it does hold you back a lot in the sense that developing relationships and, you know, friendships along the way aren't as strong as some others, which is challenging. So a lot of my friends lived in Melbourne or Sydney, but they're people who I would travel with and compete against or go to camps with, so it was very different yes, it is, and there you're talking about that.
Speaker 1:The focus on being an athlete, the focus on your sport, especially as you're coming through at a young age, means you are starved of time to be able to establish those certainly close relationships within your, your home, your neighborhood. Interestingly, there you talk about many of the friendships that you did form are those who are in the sport with you, who are traveling with you, but also who you're competing against.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely, and I think that's a huge difference because it also translated into university life as well.
Speaker 2:You know, having that the traditional university experience, not just hindered by other things like COVID and that sort of stuff, but you're doing your studies online while you're in Europe or Asia somewhere prepping for a comp, you don't actually get that class time, so you don't get to go to uni events and meet people on the same level or interest as you.
Speaker 2:You miss a lot of that opportunity, which becomes quite lonely, because when you do get to that point where you do leave the sport, interest is you, you. You miss a lot of that opportunity, which becomes quite lonely because when you do get to that point where you do leave the sport and maybe some of your mates that are still in the sport are still competing, you're then quite isolated in this realm of oh my goodness, I just spent 20 years doing a sport and I've got no friends or you know, because you have been so hyper focused on this one goal and I guess that carries on from being a, you know, a kid, but that's, I guess in and the way I've seen it is I. I fit a lot in to being so young compared to some others, which was the benefit from that amazing experiences which you wouldn't trade for anything well, this is a bit so.
Speaker 1:You talk about those moments of loneliness, those moments of sort of being disconnected from both worlds. From the sports side, because you're not necessarily going out, you're coming back in to study, but you're also somewhat with those who are studying because you're not physically there all the time and you're off competing in sport. How did you get through that moment? What did you have to support you or, you know, keep you focused on navigating that period of your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's not easy. And particularly I moved out of home at 17, from Bundaberg five hours into Brizzy, so I was away from my family, very tight knit. We all live very close together. It's that traditional Maltese-Italian everyone looks after everyone cousins or brothers. You know that's the way we grew up and leaving that was quite difficult because that's my support network outside of missing out on those other relationships. So it was challenging. You spend a lot of time on the phone. Facetime is a blessing, but it's quite. Yeah, you just battle it with your coach because, again, taekwondo is an individual sport but you travel the world with your coach really. So you two share those emotions, talk it out. You know the teammates that you travel with, you've got them and they're kind of your family as well. So leaning on that support system quite a lot and still using mum and dad as a very heavy support system to get through those periods of time and so talk to me a bit.
Speaker 1:Let's bring it to life what your sport was like during this period. So you talk about year 12, spending time overseas, um heading into university. Talk to me about where. Let everyone understand. Where did your sport get to in taekwondo?
Speaker 2:yeah. So in taekwondo unfortunately missed out on tokyo olympics, which was devastating. You know it was right there didn't quite reach reach. It was between myself and another girl and you know it broke my foot. Didn't get any chance to appeal for that, for that olympic spot which is gutting. It's quite hard as an athlete when you that was. That was the dream right from eight years old and it took some time to, with covid and everything obviously the olympics being delayed and training changed and those sorts of things, so that was quite difficult.
Speaker 1:And after that I got this About that for you.
Speaker 2:The, you know, eight years old. I said I was going to the Olympics in 2020. And it's right there and you can feel it, you can see it, everyone else can see it, everyone's. It's right there and you, just you just miss out by the hair on your chin and that's difficult. I don't think many people get to experience that height of emotion, because you're a part of the 1% and it just don't quite get there. It's one. Maybe one kick was short, or one turn or block could have changed everything, and so it's a hard pill to swallow, and we were in covid at the time, so you were doing it by yourself, trying to understand and navigate those emotions, which which was quite difficult and how did you get through that?
Speaker 2:again leaning on mom and dad facetime was amazing, just talking through things and and understanding like and I always forget, and my coaches, my coach and I talk about this so she says to me you're only 20, like at the time she was like you're 20, you are a baby. This is. You are so young. Mum and dad would remind me as well. You are so young, like. You have life ahead of you. You know you have a professional career outside of sport as well. So you know this is not the end of the world and just being reminded of that, which is you need that, you need that support. It's not something you can go through advocate yourself and leaning on the support at the QAS as well to get talk through it with someone who's outside of your world, queensland, the yeah yeah, that's it, and so you know they provide you someone to talk to, which is so important.
Speaker 2:Someone outside of knows you and who knows how you would normally react or your goals and ambitions.
Speaker 1:So breaking that down helped immensely well, I was going to say how did having that support through queensland of Sport, having that person to speak to, how did it help you?
Speaker 2:It helped me put things in perspective and that's a huge and trying to separate my identity from sport. I'm Jess and Jess does taekwondo, but it's not her world, which was a huge help. And the people in my world couldn't do that because they are so invested in that as well and in that goal, and the people in my world couldn't do that because they are so invested in that as well and in that goal, and I think that was the shift.
Speaker 1:That was that shift, and so when you say so, it wasn't all your world. What else was going on for you at that time?
Speaker 2:You know, I'm still studying. I was, yeah, I'm still in uni and I'm working as well a job aside from training and all those things and trying to build, build friendships and relationships and be 20.
Speaker 1:Yes, be 20 pushing for the Olympics and and you you talk about and well, actually I'm interested in, you know, your pursuit also of getting that degree, the bachelor's, and being the first in your family and having to hold a job. I mean, this journey to even make it to the Olympics is really pulling your 24 hours a day, 168 hours in a week. It's really trying to, you know, stretch you as far as possible, to put things in. So when you were there and you were like, oh my gosh, I didn't. You had that talk. You were speaking with someone who was helping you recognize the entirety of your world. What did you do? What was next?
Speaker 2:It was working out. Everyone says to me oh my God, like you need to slow down, like you're too busy, there needs to be time for you in the day. But, but at that time I was like no, I jammed every hour with something to benefit me in the day. But but at that time I was like no, I jammed every hour with something to benefit me in the future. Because I was always so focused on I don't want to just survive, I want to be able to be okay and not have to stress and not have to ever worry. And so I was. When I would study, I would you know, I did everything online, so I would sit down and just repeat over and over and over again for hours and hours and on end, to just try and get through it. And as did not enjoy it one bit, I cannot say I had one exciting day at university.
Speaker 1:I could not wait until it was over so I I'll be just stepping into that then. So, university for you, it sounds like and I suppose I'm putting words in your mouth here, but it sounds like the goal was to get the degree and that was that focus. So which course did you choose? And talk through, what was the rationale for making those decisions?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I think I surprised everyone with my choice in career because I told everyone I wanted to be a physio when I was at at school and then I went. That's not practical because I want to travel and go to the Olympics and you know you have to be in the classroom for physio. And then I went. You know what? I had this side little nerded out about the laws and the laws around and information and government around, like the UN and international business and how it all operates.
Speaker 2:And secretly was my wanted to understand it more and you know it was a little thing that I would get excited about very randomly because I wanted to understand it a little bit more. And you know it was a little thing that I would get excited about very randomly because I wanted to understand it a little bit more and I really enjoyed seeing the humanitarian side and all of that part of it. So when we come to pick my classes and courses and I said to my mom, law at Griffith or QUT or anywhere in Brisbane Didn't get into law straight away, but I got into business with a double major in international business and sports management and also. So I did that for like a year and then transferred to a double degree in the business aspect and law. So it was chaotic and you know, as I went through uni, the idea of the where I wanted to take it changed so much. You know, being involved in different sporting events, being involved in undergraduate roles at law firms changed how I maybe wanted to do things.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so, and so, when you first had this dream of law and what was that like? What did you dream? It meant to be in law for you.
Speaker 2:I imagined being able to be in government and working on negotiations federal government negotiations with other countries in terms of our humanitarian exchanges. So that was my idea and over the time that changed and opportunity changed and I got my dual citizenship with Malta. So obviously, you can't be a part in the government with dual citizenship, and I appreciated that, being closer to my culture than you know my professional career, and so I changed the idea a lot more and it evolved for the better in my personal opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so life happened is what it sounds like. So, as you're going through that degree Maltese nationality it sounds like the. And then, as we were speaking before you, the internships themselves changed your perspective on what you wanted to be doing as well, which I think is really important to understand. How did they change? You know, were you doing something that's like? No, I'm doing this for my job, get it out of here. You know what was that like for you.
Speaker 2:You know you're an athlete and you're ingrained with a collaborative mindset, I think, because you have to be able to work well with others for you to get better, and that's an important mindset that we have. And for others it may be stronger, but going into then an undergraduate role in a law firm, it's fend for yourself and so, which is fine, I can do that, that as well, but it's quite toxic.
Speaker 1:Ah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're not billing so many hours, it's you know, it's detrimental to your career, whereas I'm trying to balance training gym in the morning and then two hours of training in the evening, plus bill, eight and a half hours in a day. There's not enough hours in my day to concentrate and give 100 here, 100 here and 100 here, which then slowly became a realization. And then I had one boss say to me you need to choose your passion. And I was like no, no, I don't. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:no, you can have two passions yes, yes, oh, meaning your passion for law versus a passion for your sport correct and that was the turning point for me to go this is not it and to take a different route than the traditional.
Speaker 1:Go on. So tell me about that. How did that change your view then on the route that you would take from your interest in law?
Speaker 2:So I think when you watch like you know, you see it on TV what a traditional lawyer would do in. You know, in a movie sense, you're in court, you're negotiating contracts in a firm with all these major clients, you watch Suits. It's not how it happens, but you get this ideal.
Speaker 1:So which show was it that sort of inspired?
Speaker 2:you Suits. Of course Everyone wants to be Harvey Specter, but it's not real and it's and the work behind it, a traditional lawyer. You they are very, very passionate, strong-minded on the things they need to do. You serving hundreds of clients and you do have to build that, that amount of time to fit everyone into your days and so, realizing I can kind of move in the non-traditional way and, you know, go in-house early or take a different look on what law and what impact I can make in that sense.
Speaker 1:Yes. So, given this shift for you, I'm now interested just to get the timings right between the huge disappointment with around the Olympics, your shifts, your ongoing shifts around learning about law. Coming back to your sport, I'm keen to understand now how your shift came through from. Okay, this sport isn't giving me. I'm not getting what I want right now. I'm going to, I'm going to shift. Talk to me about how that came about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, my shift was an interesting experience. I went after the Olympics, played out and competed a few more times after that in Taekwondo and kind of tried to sell myself to Taekwondo as I am the next big thing. But it's quite hard to do that when you know they've got someone that they want. So I it was frustrating and you feel like you're fighting against this wall. That's just not this brick wall, it's not moving. So I went you know what I think I need to challenge myself in a different way and mum sent me these links to this youth for 2032 trial day and basically what that was was the Queensland Academy of Sport had these testing days where you would go and you would do these, the beat tests, you know, an agility test, strength test, there's a whole range of tests in your physical ability and also your mental ability interviews, and they would say, okay, well, you're good for this sport, this sport and this sport. So I did that. You know I was the oldest one there. I was like, oh dear, why am I here? What am I doing? But you know, we went in and I did it and I got three sports. I got archery, skateboarding and boxing and I thought, okay, this is a. I was like you know what, I'm gonna try all of them because they gave you. So you had three months. You could either pick one sport, try them all and try them for three months and then go which one kind of fits.
Speaker 2:And I prepared myself to do all of them and I was still doing taekwondo, you know, still training. We had nationals coming up and I was, you know I love of them and I was still doing Taekwondo, you know, still training. We had nationals coming up and I was, you know I love Taekwondo. I wouldn't leave it. So I still had the mindset of let's keep pushing this. It's you know I'm in a lull, I'm not loving it at the moment, but I sat down and I spoke with mum and dad, I spoke with my partner and we all kind of went. I can't even go backwards and forwards on a skateboard, let alone go on a jump. I'd break my leg. I also have poor aim and control. I've archery makes no sense and there's so much more behind it, but this is how I practicalize it in my head. And then I went. Boxing is the only one that makes sense to me and the only one where I could go. My skin skills are completely transferable. It's time to go.
Speaker 1:But with hands, boy, was I wrong given how we started the conversation around the, the motor skills, the reason you went into taekwondo, I was really hoping you said and then you did archery and well, hopefully amazing, and you wouldn't hit anybody. You know walking, I do, but you for 2032 is a queensland sport, uh, academy of sport initiative. About looking at brisbane 2032 olympics and recognizing, I guess, well underlying sporting attributes that could sit in the general population who just had the right age. But it's really trying to pull everyone together to get behind the games, make it perhaps the most successful games ever since Sydney, if not beyond Sydney. Now, in doing that, what's actually fascinating to me is this program is a bit like the career tests you did at school you come in, you do different tests, tests and then someone gives you a hey, go and pick these, which sometimes work, sometimes are super random.
Speaker 2:That's about right yeah, that is about right and it was genuinely. For me it was. Yeah, it was okay. I've been given these three. Two are just wild and one only really makes sense, but it was exciting.
Speaker 1:Yes, what was exciting for you about picking boxing and giving that a shot? What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, it was an opportunity to challenge myself, be the first Australian to compete at the highest level of boxing and taekwondo at the same time, under the same banner. That was an exciting perspective for me. Again, a first breaking barriers and also just a break, a break from Taekwondo, which was nice, and the idea around it was very, yeah, very exciting, which was a hard pill to swallow, obviously.
Speaker 1:In what way a hard pill to swallow for you to take a break from Taekwondo it felt like cheating.
Speaker 2:It felt like I've dedicated so much time and effort and my own emotion, my parents' emotion, my partner's, everyone's emotions. Everyone was invested in Taekwondo and I've just gone jokes, we're going to try boxing. So it felt like I didn't quite achieve the goal that we set out to do as a collaborative. And then I've just kind of pulled the pin and said hang on, let's try this, let's put time and energy into this.
Speaker 1:How did you come to that decision then?
Speaker 2:Once I went to the training and the whole idea was let's just suss it out, let's see what it's like, the environment. I always loved watching boxing. I'm obsessed with certain fighters. I loved watching them, I'd support them, but I wasn't sure about the whole experience, so I'll go in. Was partnered with an amazing gym. About the whole experience. So you know, I'll go in. Was partnered with an amazing gym, an amazing coach, a really nice environment to train in, and instantly that was like wow, this is really nice, this is refreshing. Not saying my Taekwondo training environment was bad at all, I had the best team around me, but it was new perspective. It was new types of training pushing my body to a different limit. And I went, competed in both and trained in both for from 22 to midway 23. So I still did, you know, tours for taekwondo and and trained boxing at the same time. And three months into boxing they went.
Speaker 1:We're gonna, let's fight let's fight, yeah three months in and so because to me, like you say you've, there's a transferable skill that you identify from taekwondo, from that competing, that one-on-one, that chess approach to combat, from taekwondo into boxing. How do you feel it translated? What did you kind of have to take with you? And actually, where did you get to with the boxing as well?
Speaker 2:So what transferred really well is boxing. I could get hit. I knew I was going to get hit and that's the first thing, like, I think, when you're a fighter in combat sport, having grit, naturally, is really important, and having and not being scared of being hit, because to get a point you might have to cop a point, and that's really hard because, like in any other sport, you do not want them to score a goal or you don't want them to get away. You are actively stopping them from getting a point, whereas in combat sports they need you know you may need to risk that. So that was obvious transferable skill as well as footwork. It's the same footwork, similar footwork, the exact same. But having a base is really important. So I did my first fight and that was on the Gold Coast in May, three months into the program, and they were like, yeah, let's do it. And I was terrified.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say what was that first experience for you.
Speaker 2:I went in. It was wild. I went in and I was shaking. I was more nervous than I'd ever been. People at QAS showed up. There was quite a lot of people ready to see this journey begin, and so I went in and all I did was I had this mentality of oh well, here we are, let's do it, nothing to lose, let's just grab some fun. And that's what I did. I went out there and I had a blast. I don't even think some of the punches I threw were punches they probably like swings with like no structure. But and then at some times I had this laugh about it. Now it probably wasn't a good thing at the time.
Speaker 2:I would see these opportunities that in Taekwondo and all I could hear was in the back of my head, my taekwondo coach going like up the middle, up the middle, like get her, kick her up the middle. Like. I was like, oh my god, I can see what she means now, like and and as a photo. I got a little bit frustrated because kept getting tangled and my leg has lifted off the ground to kick her and my boxing coach has said no, don't kick. Like freaking out because she thought I was gonna kick her so consciously thinking no, this is not Taekwondo, this is not Taekwondo, this is not Taekwondo. But other than that it was. I had the best time. I went back for more, so I did that officially stopped taekwondo. In july 2023, I might had my last fight.
Speaker 2:It was australian open and I snapped my syndesmosis during that fight so I had to have ankle surgery no idea what you snapped there so you have your ankle bones and there's a tendon that holds them together across the top of your foot all right right across the foot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's it okay yeah, and so it's.
Speaker 2:So it's equivalent to, you know, almost as bad as snapping your achilles. It was you know yeah achilles is worse, but it's way up there. So I had to have surgery and and it was a forced stop of Taekwondo because I couldn't really kick up In that time in my rehab all I did was box.
Speaker 1:Right, a somewhat forced retirement from Taekwondo. It forced your hands, forced your foot in some respects to say, okay, you're not going to be able to get all the way up there again, but then from a boxing perspective, you've also had to be retired. You had to sort of force retire to an extent from that last year as well, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So taekwondo concussion rules haven't didn't come in until very recently. So in taekwondo I'd get knocked out and I'd wake up on the mats and I'd get back up and walk back on or get big hits and I just have the worst headaches or get big hits and I just have the worst headaches afterwards and I just oh well, kind of thing Didn't take it seriously. Come into boxing, where concussion is taken quite seriously, you know getting checked often after fights as well. But I, you know, couldn't get fights in boxing because the girls wouldn't fight me because they felt that you know, in amateur sport, in amateur boxing, you have to have you fight within your number of fight category as well as weight. But if you know you've had two fights, you'd fight someone else who had two fights and people wouldn't fight me because of my Taekwondo experience. So that in turn meant instead of fighting girls who were 57 and under, I would fight girls who were 62 or, you know, maybe 65 and we'd kind of meet in the middle. And when you're cutting weight, fighting someone heavier is quite dangerous and hard. But I was that desperate to. I was like I want to achieve this goal, like com games is coming up, like this was a goal for me to 26 and I said let's, you know, let's, let's do it. So I was saying yes to these fights.
Speaker 2:My coach is like is you know, if you feel like it's unsafe, we're going to pull it out. Like this is at the moment, it's still in the realm of being safe. It was fine, like there was no concern from me. My coach, the body, which was and totally, totally fine. You're in a combat sport, you expect it, but it got a bit too much and you know constant headaches and they were just too heavy and getting hit over and over again and my hearing started to deteriorate just from constant headaches and concussion and impact and I started to fall out of love with it because out of just sport and training and being hit was, I could feel these things happening and I was like you know what? This is not okay, I'm not enjoying it. You know, constantly feeling unwell, can't hear anything. My partner would yell at me. Why aren't you listening to me? I just said this. I was like I did not hear it.
Speaker 1:Wow, and so retirement through concussion for you, whilst I think the bit that I really take away is because concussion wasn't seen as or wasn't identified as a huge risk in taekwondo and they didn't have at least the same types of protocols in place. You actually went through your taekwondo career being concussed, knocked out, getting back up, having the symptoms, but it wasn't alerted to you as important yeah, we would just get back up and get back in.
Speaker 2:But that was my mindset. I was like, wait, I'm fine, let's go, and that. But that was who I was. That's who I was as a fighter. I was ready to get in the ring at any cost. That's how dedicated I was to the sport.
Speaker 2:And people see taekwondo as you're getting hit softly or you got gear on when someone's going to kick you in the ring at any cost. That's how dedicated I was to the sport. And people see Taekwondo as you're getting hit softly or you've got gear on when someone's going to kick you in the head. They're going to kick you in the head and it's going to hurt. Mind you, I'd rather be kicked than punched, but it hurts. And so the kicks that I was getting, they were never soft. No one pulled their kicks. We never pulled our kicks't. They were never soft. No one pulled their kicks. Like we never pulled our kicks. So they were solid hits. But you're in the ring doing a fighting sport. That person wants to hit you and you want to hit them, and that was the reality. So there was no real time for being no.
Speaker 1:so you know, as I'm reflecting a little more on your journey, from this dream of making the Olympics 2000, 2020, sorry, from the age of eight, then shifting those skills into boxing with a view of Comm Games and then so Commonwealth Games and then heading into Brisbane 2032. Probably we should add A in the mix as well somewhere, but pushing through to those Olympics and whilst you're in that combat environment, your focus was less on the combat and more on the game of chess, that management of things that happen, and that's a transition. And then we're stepping into at that same time, the change in environment highlighted the negative effects of the certain things, of getting knocked out right and made it way more fun, which I guess at some point means it has to change your decision. It has to change the way that you operate in that sport and which meant you came to that tough decision of of having to retire from the sport correct and it wasn't as scary at the time.
Speaker 2:It was kind kind of. I was very upset and very distraught, but I never, ever went, oh, my goodness, like what do I do now? Never, because I prepared myself.
Speaker 1:In what way did you prepare yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, at the same time as being an athlete and competing. I always knew that it wasn't forever, and so that's why I worked additional hours or multiple jobs, because I wanted to make sure I was gaining experience as an athlete, but also as a professional. So I knew that I could leave sport and go, I have experience and hand a resume to someone and get a job.
Speaker 1:And do you know? What's wonderful is that, in the same way that what you were doing through sport had to shift, it shifted based on outcomes, results. It shifted based on tests and skills. It's the same thing that happened from you, from a, I'll say, your more traditional career. So, going down that legal route, in what you thought you were stepping into, changed one when you got to uni and you picked a very different degree. But then also, through your internships and through your experience of, hey, life isn't going to be like the series suits. Being in law is different, being a legal practitioner isn't what I think, and that shifted your career and your focus. And I guess that kind of gets us to where we are today. You know, from a legal perspective, what are you doing now? What are you working towards now in your legal profession?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am a contracts manager at a tech company, and so I get to work and negotiate contracts every day, using my legal skills in the same way I would as a traditional lawyer, but negotiating for one client all the time, complex and intrinsic parts of the law and contract themselves every day. And that's a full-time job and with great exposure experience not only on home soil but also internationally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how are you enjoying it?
Speaker 2:I love it. I'm having the best time. I'm having the best time because you're in an environment of people that have the same goal, that it's a collaborative approach. You're being a part of a program that you are all fighting to win the same battle, and so you have a purpose within that organization and, fundamentally, if you're not performing, that program or that product won't perform. So I get to have that experience every day and you know there's the monotonous tasks and that's just what working in an office. You know there's some things, or any job that is laborious and you don't want to do.
Speaker 1:You might hit the punch bag. You might do certain drills that we did. We did a beep test.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, Skipping for 20 minutes. It's the same thing over and over again. It doesn't get that much more exciting than that. You have that in your book.
Speaker 1:And what then is great, and I suppose it's coming in towards. Well, I'll say what's next for you with an intentional pun. What I love about the journey you've been on so far is how all of these things weave together the ability to shift from taekwondo into boxing looking at the footwork, the chest moves, all those types of things the ability to shift through that legal career to find what it is you do now. And so talk to me about your project. Talk to me about how you're weaving your skills of law, your skills of sport, into working and supporting other athletes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what I'm working on it's a bit of a side hustle at the moment, but it's called Next, so spelled differently Navigate, empower, excel, transform. And my main focus with Next, it's a platform where athletes can come onto it. Whether you are still an athlete, transitioning athlete or someone who has retired officially or unofficially however you want to call it that can come onto this platform. And because I've had so many conversations with athletes over my time where they've said I want to do this the rest of my life. Or, you know, I can't work and I'm struggling. Or, you know, I don't know, can you help me Because you may have done that subject at uni already?
Speaker 2:Or where do I go to write a? Will you know something so simple? That is not. You know, we are in our own little bubbles. We are protected when we are an athlete of certain things. We are protected when we are an athlete of certain things and you know, maybe, depending on your caliber or where you are as an athlete, we have people that can help us with that, so you don't have to think about it all the time. So, and when you leave, or when you're starting to leave, it's like well, where do I go for that. Now, who can I ask for help? Who can I ask to guide me to a lawyer? Or I'm an athlete and I'm earning money competing. What do I do with that money? How do I protect it? How do I save it? So the idea that I come from talking to athletes and going through my own experience is to have this platform where athletes can subscribe to and we can give. We have experts on the platform providing information on how to write a will.
Speaker 2:What does a will look like? Should you buy a property or a home or a residential property, investment property, sorry. Or what are shares and not locker room shares? Property story, or what are shares and not locker room shares legitimate shares that you can earn money on, that you can save, you know, not something silly? And you lose all the money that you put to also your own personal brand when you are an athlete and transitioning out. How are those skills transferable? How do I transfer them? Where do I go to transfer them? But not only having that information already or watch a video on, but actually having you able to contact that person directly, rather than going and meeting with a financial advisor or lawyer and and you go, they go. Oh well, we can't help you, or we don't want to help you, or it's going to cost you $500 an hour Having these people there, or, you know, group training sessions, one-on-one coaching.
Speaker 1:What has inspired you to do this now?
Speaker 2:Talking to athletes, just hearing people listening. That's what's inspired me to do it, because we don't talk about transition enough. You are an asset to people when you're in your sport. You're an asset to people competing and getting results. But what happens when you're finished? You are like we are talented people. We are so talented, our skills are so valuable. We've experienced things that a lot of people don't get to experience. We've reached emotions, pushed our bodies. We've been to the extent a person could be or go mentally, physically whack when it's finished. Or you know when, when you do come to the end of the career, whether it is by choice or not, there's places for you to continue, maybe not feeling that adrenaline rush that you will feel doing that thing that you love, like competing, but feel something pretty close to it. Or you know making an impact somewhere else, and that's why it's inspired me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:You know it's why we're having the conversation, but obviously I love that and I think for those listening it's also empowering.
Speaker 1:Your story you talk about next and you know I do think your story can help empower or excite others to sort of try and follow in your footsteps in the way of recognizing, even from one sport to another sport, that transition is possible. I think you've also highlighted the importance of concussion and it's good that taekwondo has caught up and recognizing when those things are occurring you need to act on it, not just get up and get back in. So I think that's a good, a good education. But you know, the bit that really gets me is your ongoing journey through education, so that your academia, but then also how you've shifted that into a job, into into your career in in law and contracts law at the moment, but how you're now using that knowledge to help athletes, to give them that support structure in not just legal matters but recognizing the other parts as well. And I think, and I think that's really good to hear and you're setting yourself up for ongoing success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think in my journey I have always wanted to be to leave a good legacy. That was always, regardless win, lose, draw, success or not, it was just be myself the whole way through and that was the goal, and that's what I wanted to continue to do with Next, because you know, I've lived it. Now I just want to change it, and that's the whole goal and just be your whole genuine self.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jess, I'd say you're living it. I don't think you're living it. It's still ongoing, I think, for you as well. You're in that transition stage yourself and so listening to you is, I think, really insightful, certainly for me and never mind anyone else. But I'm enjoying the conversation because you're in that midst right now and you are working your way through it, and I guess I have to ask you know, coming towards the end of the show but when you think of other athletes who are working their way through that transition or thinking about, hey, I'm going to have to make the shift, I'm going to have to retire soon, what advice do you give to them?
Speaker 2:It's okay. I think the one thing that I wish I was trying to tell myself more and more it's a journey and it's a process. Don't rush it. It's going to be okay and you can take it as slow as you want, but allow yourself time to make the decision. Allow yourself time to grieve your sport, because it's a loss. It sounds silly, but you can grieve something because you've been doing it for so long or it's a part of you and stopping and trying to change your lifestyle and adapt your lifestyle to be just a regular person. It's hard, it's really. It's going to suck and that's okay. It's a journey, it's a process and it will come as quickly as it comes or as slow as it goes. Just don't rush it. So that would be my biggest advice and I have to tell myself every day just slow down, it's okay. It's okay to cry about it, it's okay to be angry. Don't let anyone tell. Tell you otherwise, because it's it's so fun, it's a part of it thanks, yes, thank you, thanks for sharing that perspective.
Speaker 1:Look, they're going to be people listening watching the show who are going to want to try and get in touch. You're going to want to follow your, your journey and and also perhaps be a part of next. What's the best way for them to follow your journey and perhaps even get in touch?
Speaker 2:with regards to my journey. I'm on all the social media, so follow me on instagram, facebook, but also for next, we're going live on the website shortly coming months. Um, so that's super exciting. But to hear more about that, you can follow us again on instagram, so it's underscore next, and so we will have all the updates on there. Or if you go on wwwnext2easecomau, you can register to find out when we launch and keep an eye out as well, just to get an email to know when we go live.
Speaker 1:Wonderful Jess. Thanks very much for joining me on the show today. Really appreciate you helping everyone else find a little bit of career clarity and finding that second wind in life thank you so much for having me and it's an awesome topic talk on, so thank you thank you for listening to the second wind podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
Speaker 3:If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
Speaker 1:I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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