Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
Former professional footballer Ryan Gonsalves dives deep into the unique challenges and triumphs of transitioning from elite sports to fulfilling careers. Through candid conversations with athletes, the Career Clarity Podcast explores their inspiring journeys, uncovering lessons on identity, resilience, and reinvention. Whether you're an athlete or simply seeking inspiration for your next chapter, this podcast will empower you to unleash your second wind.
Ryan Gonsalves transitioned from professional football with Huddersfield Town in the English Footbaal League, to a career in financial services by leveraging his adaptability, transferable skills, and willingness to embrace new opportunities.
While playing semi-professional football, he pursued education and began working at GE Money Capital Bank, where he gained global experience and developed expertise in Lean Six Sigma and process improvement. His sports background often helped him stand out during interviews, creating memorable connections with hiring managers.
Later, Ryan joined HSBC in Hong Kong, where he worked for nearly a decade in consumer banking, focusing on global projects such as researching homeownership behaviors. His ability to understand consumer insights and behavior became a cornerstone of his success in the financial sector. After over 20 years in banking (including back in Australia at AMP, Westpac, COmmenwealth Bank and NSW Treasury, Ryan transitioned into career coaching, inspired by helping fellow athletes navigate their post-sports careers.
Ready to take the next step? Connect with Ryan at letschat@2ndwind.io.
Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
153: Kate Bailey PLY - From Paralympic Medals to the Classroom
Kate takes us back to her early swimming days, competing in the Sydney and Athens Paralympics, and what it felt like to walk away from the pool after years of intense training. She opens up about facing subtle (and not-so-subtle) discrimination as a para-athlete, the identity crisis that followed retirement, and how she unexpectedly found a second wind through teaching and travel.
Now back in Sydney, Kate is slowly finding her way again—this time by helping young para-athletes feel seen, valued, and included. Her story is a powerful reminder that endings can also be beginnings, and that it’s okay not to have everything figured out.
We talk about:
- What life looked like after the 2000 Paralympics—and why it felt like the floor dropped
- Discovering para-swimming by accident
- Juggling training with academics (and sleeping through a lot of school)
- The bittersweet end of her competitive swimming career
- Teaching in Germany and Denmark—and losing it all because of a visa issue
- Why representation in sport still matters
- Reconnecting with the water in a new way through open-water swimming
- Her hopes for the future of para-sport and grassroots inclusion
💎 GOLDEN NUGGET:
"Paralympics isn’t about ‘having a go.’ I was in there to win—same as every other Olympian."
Get in Touch!
To learn more about career transitions after sport or to get in touch with Ryan, visit www.2ndwind.io
So you were pretty much jumping from school training games off. You go, coming out of that. You are. Isn't that school structure anymore? Things are different. What was that life like for you as you came out, certainly, of the Sydney Olympics?
Speaker 2:It was bizarre, to be honest. I mean, there was a period of time where I had a break from not long, but a break and I remember sitting up in the stands of our swimming pool and just going what do I do now? And it's just like it's like the floor had gone out from underneath you. It's like I knew I was still going to swim, but the next Paralympics is four years away and, yes, there are things in the middle. But it was just like wow. So you just didn't realise that everything you did was built up for that one event, everything, and then all of a sudden, it's not there. So it was a bizarre feeling.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Kate, welcome to the second win academy podcast, thank you thanks for being here yeah, well, look, it's good, it's good for us to to we'll actually get this going because we've we, we've tried, we've had false starts, we've had coffees, um, and now we're making it happen. So it's great to have you here, thanks, and look we would. We're just chatting about swimming and we're chatting about your sense in the pool and look, this show. Really, we're going to get an understanding of how you have, I guess, continued to thrive in your life after sport, finding second wind in life and I was going to put in like the third and the fourth and the fifth winds.
Speaker 1:It's up and down, but that's how life is, that's right it is, and I think that's going to be such a fascinating story because of what you've done during swimming, but certainly after swimming, going overseas. You know, I think you you describe yourself as naturally finding challenges, I think in in life, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a nice way to put it yeah my boss, my boss in the last school I worked in in denmark. She was like this could only ever happen to you. I think that's another way to put it. Yes, that's right, I'll go with it I'm sanitizing it, I'm making it. I'm making it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, that's right, but right, but you search for challenges in order to I don't know just keep moving. But now, but I think just the journey that you are on is one that is certainly worth talking about here, because there are lots of people going to listen. I think feel inspired by it as well, okay, and I think feel inspired by it as well, okay. Now, kate, actually, what I should do is, for those who are listening and watching, is give us an introduction. Tell us who you are and what you're about.
Speaker 2:Who I am and what I'm about. It's quite mixed. My sporting background I was a para swimmer. I still am.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you still are. A lot slower. You are allowed to keep swimming.
Speaker 2:Yes, Not competitively, just for fun now. But I competed in Sydney in 2000,. In Athens in 2004. A couple of world championships thrown in there Commonwealth Games.
Speaker 1:Several medals, those boxes, yes, yes. The medals, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, bronze medals. Two bronze medals in Sydney, two in Athens. I say that very blasé, but no, that's what you work for, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gold medals. I have three gold medals in world championships in 2002. That was probably my highlight, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where you were at one with the water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just everything just flowed really well for that one.
Speaker 1:Nowadays, I guess, out of sport more teaching advocacy to some extent as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's interesting that at the moment I was overseas for a long time teaching, which I love, and suddenly back in Sydney, back in Australia, and I'm finding that life is sort of pulling me in a direction that I didn't really plan on or expect. I thought I would be teaching until, you know, the kids I've taught have got grandkids. I'm teaching that sort of deal. But no, I'm sort of a lot more interested in the development of para sports and para swimming, which I think is an amazing area to be a part of, especially with the lead up into 2028 and brisbane 32, yeah, and which actually it does feel like this.
Speaker 2:You know, coming back to where you were, where it started, in many respects, you know, because, you know, you, whilst you may not see that, but you, as you were, as you're coming through it now, it's well bringing the swimming and the educational background and sort of bringing you back to the side of the pool again yeah, I'm just as surprised as as you sound, so, but it's a lovely area to be a part of and, um, I do think I have sort of built up those skills, not for that reason, but they just happen to be there, and I do think I can help in some ways.
Speaker 1:Or, yeah, yeah, use my skills for a good purpose yeah, well, I suppose, what is it that you think you can help to do?
Speaker 2:well, that's a. It is a tricky answer. I think when I was going through my swimming there it was tricky being a para swimmer. Things weren't always equal, to say it nicely. There was a lot of discrimination and I think I would really like to help those young swimmers know that they belong, that they are valued, that they are equal. I think that would be a wonderful thing to be able to help those swimmers do not just swimmers, but in all sports.
Speaker 1:but yeah, swimming is my thing yeah, well, actually, let's go through your career as a way to sort of paint that picture, because I am really interested in speaking more about some of the changes that you want to bring in from uh, you know I'll use the word inclusive as a shortcut, but we'll. We'll come back around and talk about how, how that isn't always the best word to use, but we'll.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about what it is that I'm very keen to understand sort of that side of things that you want to come into and how you but I think by going through your story that will really help sort of everyone listening as well and watching understand why you probably can make that big impact. So we're going to take it all the way back and just say well, what was it that attracted you to swimming as you were growing up?
Speaker 2:I don't think I had a lot of choice in the matter. My family were always very good swimmers. My uncle was in the olympics in 64. My mum is a swimmer too. She still swims two kilometers every day. So we jumped in the Olympics in 64. My mum is a swimmer too. She still swims two kilometres every day. So we jumped in the pool with mum toddled along behind her and then we did swimming club down at the rock pools in Sydney Beautiful. But I think it wasn't so much an attraction to swimming, it's just what I did and what I loved. I was always just bobbing up and down in the pool and then the way I got into para swimming was I actually didn't know anything about it, I didn't know it even existed. I just went with everybody else. It wasn't considered something different, I just got in and I remember seeing, I think, the highlights. Like this is the back of the memory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So 92 was in Barcelona.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there was like a five-minute highlight. So ABC on the news, one of the three channels, I think you know. Yeah, and I remember sitting on the couch and I remember just going oh, she's got the same hand as I do, I can do that, I want to do that.
Speaker 2:And then the next day we went up to the pool or close to the next day yeah and I jumped in with the squad there, didn't have any trouble keeping up and that's sort of where it went from. It's sort of small competitions, state competitions, and it just sort of snowballed into like oh, yeah actually I'm doing pretty well with this.
Speaker 1:So yeah, continued and continued and at that side, was that down at that time? Was it down the power route or was it quite simply?
Speaker 2:well, I'm I'm just swimming with, with everybody else a bit of both, to be honest, like I did, a lot of the competitions that were paris specific, yeah, and we were very lucky that those were were available, yeah, but there's only few and far between with those sorts of competitions, so I did really compete with everybody else. I trained with just the local swimming squad.
Speaker 1:When did you start to realise, hey, I'm kind of good at this, it might take me somewhere?
Speaker 2:I think it was quite gradual in the way that I remember. I remember going to a state competition. I was only like 11 or 12, I think, and this is when you know grannies.
Speaker 2:My grandma's neighbors made me the, the parachute material tracksuit yes it was lovely in the blue, in the blues and I think like I did break a lot of records. I think I won most of the things for my category, my classification, and I think those were the competitions where it was like, okay, you know I'm breaking records and then moved on to the next one. So nationals did very well at nationals and that's what it like. I said, just sort of grew and grew and grew. I think I don't know when my first international competition was.
Speaker 1:It must have been about 98 or so definitely 98 was um world championships in in. Christchurch that was my first major major event and so well before that. So, coming through school, did you? What did you dream of achieving in Paralympic sport?
Speaker 2:um, definitely Paralympics. That was my do you know. It might have even been like, as soon as I saw that 92 highlights and that was like no, I'm doing that, I'm doing that, that's it. There wasn't really any question about not doing it, that was it.
Speaker 1:Making the Paralympics competing there being on that next five-minute reel. I'm so glad it's improved from five minutes yes yeah, so a long way, but um growing up having that as the the dream swimming. I'm guessing you were swimming in squads, which means you are up at the crack of dawn yes, before the crack of dawn before the crack of dawn.
Speaker 2:We were done by the time dawn came around. Like every other not every other, but good swimmers around 10, 11 years old, 12 years old I started doing about four sessions a week, so I don't think the crazy mornings were too intense then, it was more the end of school, sort of year 11, 12, 10, 11, 12 probably, and then onwards they were the 10 sessions a week, 5 am mornings.
Speaker 1:Okay, academically, where did that fit in for you as you were growing up?
Speaker 2:I think I could safely say that I slept through a lot of my education. My poor mum.
Speaker 1:Why do you say your poor mum?
Speaker 2:We went to a private school. My sister and I did. My mum was a single parent and she was a primary school teacher, so it was a big ask to send both my sister and I to a private school and poor mum also having to get up at 4.30 and. I would be like don't talk to me, just give me my banana. Don't talk to me. Yeah, yeah. So she just did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she did it, yeah, she did it.
Speaker 2:and so for you, then, growing up school was well, you attended, you went that's like, yeah, very loosely attended, I did attend, but I, like I said I was asleep, you physically you were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, physically you were there so then, academically, it wasn't necessarily something where you were thinking, great, I'm going on to be xyz.
Speaker 2:It was something you were more just getting through yes, the focus was definitely on swimming. Yeah, I found it very hard to, like I said, to stay awake for one to retain information. I think it's a little bit different nowadays, but I just know that I didn't have a very good sense of, oh, you know, like I'm academically capable. Yeah, I didn't think I was very smart while I was at school.
Speaker 1:Okay, right, how did that impact you? Do you think?
Speaker 2:I think I did have it in my brain that because I didn't get good results at school that I wouldn't be able to go to university, I wouldn't be able to get a degree, get good marks, those sorts of things. But I think after school, after my swimming career had finished I know we're jumping down the track a little bit, but when I was awake at university- I remember going, oh wow, like I'm retaining information, I'm getting good grades, like, oh, maybe I'm not that silly after all.
Speaker 2:So it's a tough one for athletes, I think. I think they need to be quite kind to themselves, and I'm not sure if that's always there.
Speaker 1:No, it probably isn't, because there's this focus, there's this singular goal at times, and I think it sounds like that for you was making that Paralympics is the goal and other things might push to the side as a result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think the timing-wise of it as well. So I finished school in 99, so a long time ago yes, but 99 obviously is just before 2000. So I remember having the choice of like do I do my HSC over an extended period of time, so sort of account for the swimming, or do I just bust it out and then focus on the swimming, which is what I chose to do so you could leave school at 18 effectively yeah, do they get the exams done yeah and then be like right I mean swimming, and I guess I mean it's the Sydney Olympics as well, so it's a home Olympics.
Speaker 1:There was a question on for me now, the Paralympic setup at that time. So you had this dream of going to the Paralympics In 2000,. What was the Paralympics I mean in Sydney? How special event was it set out to be, compared to what it might have been in 92?
Speaker 2:I think I'm just trying to think how do I answer this it's I can go back to what it was like in 96 was in Atlanta for example, I only sort of just missed the team and I was very young, so I was still a bit too young to go and it was only a very small team that went. I know a lot of people who were on the Paralympic team and when they got there everything had just been wiped clear because the same sponsors weren't the sponsors for the Paralympics as they were for the Olympics. So I think they found that quite difficult. But Sydney was different, the way that they approached it. You could tell that it was a lot more getting to that sort of that parity.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that parallel, which is what it should be parallel. Yes, yeah, yeah, and we could feel that yes.
Speaker 2:And it was also very interesting because I know the Olympics were on right when I was sort of weeks away from competing as well, which was interesting because there's this massive buzz, huge buzz in Sydney. The whole thing was like electric. It was this atmosphere, but I'm like the synchronisers are in my pool at home. How dare they get out of my pool? Yes, no, I say that negatively, but it was more just. You know, you want to stay on track, you want to focus on yourself, but it was like there was a buzz, a buzz.
Speaker 1:I've never thought of that. So here you are in your prep for the paralympics, especially in the home, a home one. It means that you're swimming, you're feeling the buzz of the olympics, yeah, a month ahead of when you're, when you are going to actually start yeah and you had some someone else in your pool, so you couldn't even prep properly poor synchronized swimming to me.
Speaker 1:That's just interesting. I know sorry I'm here's me being selfish, thinking about myself. Gosh, I could now think what the implications of that are. But so for you, though, I guess you're getting to see the buzz feel what. What's happening in the olympics? Yeah, olympics ahead of you, then going to the Paralympics. So, as you then began your Paralympic journey 2000, how did that feel?
Speaker 2:I was very focused on like day to day, getting through my sessions, checking the boxes, making sure I didn't get too carried away, and so I'm trying to try to just I think it's just trying to keep that focus for my own races, but we didn't really have a lot of preparation for how huge it was going to be. You know, I think this is really one of the first times that the media attention was there for the para swimmers and you know there was nothing really that could prepare you for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. How did it take you by surprise?
Speaker 2:Oh, the sheer number of people and the amount of, like the media that was at the swimming pool. For one, I remember very well walking out to my first race, which was a 200 I am, and that was on the first night. And, as a side note, like we had the, the opening ceremony the night before, yes right. We were on our feet for a very long time and, being the last team to come out, the stadium was packed.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, um, still gives me like shivers. Kylie was playing Love Kylie and we were just dancing our socks off, yeah, and it's one of those things. It's like what do you do? Do you go opening ceremony at your home Paralympics and then hope for the best the next day? Mm-hmm, or there's no, or sorry, but there wasn't an. Or.
Speaker 1:Well, it's almost. You skip this opportunity to be like you say at the Olympic Stadium home stadium. Home stadium.
Speaker 2:So Athens, like four years later. I didn't go to the opening ceremony, but Sydney, that was just one of those things. I ended up coming fourth in my first race which was a very hard pill to swallow. Okay, yeah, and that you know I do think about that regularly, like you know, was that? Because I was dancing my socks off at the opening ceremony? Yes yeah, but that's how it was.
Speaker 1:That's how it was.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't have missed it for anything. Not for anything.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think I've gone off on tangents there.
Speaker 1:No, but it's a good trade-off, isn't it? I think. Well it, well, here it is. These are the experiences of life, and one of the challenges as an elite athlete is what do you sacrifice, what do you intentionally miss out on? For the sake of your sporting achievement there. You perhaps without realizing at the time, but you made that decision, which was I'm going out in the Olympic stadium, I'm going to enjoy this at home, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:There was something about it that I just there's no way I was going to miss it.
Speaker 1:No way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, and I think what I was getting to is. I do remember walking out for my first race and the stadium, like you couldn't see the top of the stands. You couldn't see the top of the stands. You couldn't see because it was just so high. Yeah, and this is a pool that I had done training at. You know I knew that pool very, very well, but put all of that around it and it's completely different yeah, you know, thinking about the games, obviously it was a wonderful experience for you.
Speaker 1:from a sporting perspective. I'm interested in coming out of that Games because you went to the Games really young so you were pretty much jumping from school training Games off you go Coming out of that you are. Isn't that school structure anymore? Things are different. What was that life like for you as you came out, certainly, of the Sydney Olympics?
Speaker 2:It was bizarre, to be honest. I mean, there was a period of time where I had a break from not long, but a break and I remember sitting up in the stands of our swimming pool and just going what do I do now? And it's just like it's like the floor had gone out from underneath you. It's like I knew I was still going to swim, but the next Paralympics is four years away and, yes, there are things in the middle. But it was just like wow. So you just didn't realise that everything you did was built up for that one event, everything. And then all of a sudden it's not there. So it was a bizarre feeling of just lack of I don't know, like treading water maybe, but without water.
Speaker 1:So what did you do? Did I?
Speaker 2:do. To be honest, I remember the feeling, but I don't really remember what I did. I know I had a break.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you mean by feeling? What was the feeling?
Speaker 2:Just of not knowing. No, it was not not knowing, but I know I had a break. Yeah, what do you mean by feeling? What was the feeling? I? Just of not knowing, not having. No, it was not not knowing, but because I knew I was going to swim. It was more that not having that intensity of I'm training for the Paralympics every single day, day in, day out, that's it, and it was sort of regrouping, I think, would be the best way to say it. Yeah, but it did take a little while. It did take a little while.
Speaker 1:How do you think you found? How did you regroup?
Speaker 2:How did I regroup, I think, just, I think, the support around? Probably, again, I didn't have school either, so I think I did a couple of things that you know, a couple of small courses, just to sort of fill in the time I was teaching swimming as well. So I just sort of did, did things that I could do around my training as well. I think it's just little bit by little bit and then slowly you bring in the what competition is next?
Speaker 2:right nationals are next sitting down with your coach. Having a plan up to world championships was in 2002. So it's kind of like, right, let's sit down, let's make a plan. But yes, I did have some very good support at that time.
Speaker 1:Thank goodness Well, yes, thank goodness Well. Suppose if you didn't have that support, what would you have done?
Speaker 2:You know, I think I would have been a. I probably do you know what. Maybe I would have just jumped straight back into training because that's what you hold on to, that's what you know. Maybe that's what would have happened, but I don't necessarily think that that's a great idea after. You do need a break after something that is that major.
Speaker 1:That intense.
Speaker 2:That intense?
Speaker 1:yeah, Because it is an emotional, hugely emotional I burst into tears walking out for my first event.
Speaker 2:I did not hold it together. No, no. We had no training for these things either. They've got some really good um sports psychologists now, but really didn't have those sorts of things on our team?
Speaker 1:no, so we talk about after the olympics or paralympics and planning. Your well, taking a break, regrouping come back together outside of swimming. What was the passion? What dreams did you have outside of swimming?
Speaker 2:oh, that's that. That's a hard one as well. I don't know if there was much outside of it at that time. To be honest, I I was teaching swimming and I I found that I was good at teaching swimming, but that's a lot of hours in the water. Yeah, that's a lot of time in the water, but I enjoyed it. I was good at it. But I think my focus was always on the next event, the next nationals, the next major international time. That's kind of what my focus was until, yeah, 2004, right yeah, I'm not sure that if that sort of answers it.
Speaker 1:But well, it answers it because that's what you were, that's what you were doing, that's what you were doing. That's what you were thinking about. Yeah, I didn't think of studying at the time.
Speaker 2:I think I do remember I did get into university, but for an arts degree which I didn't end up doing. It was just a bit of study-wise. I didn't really know what I wanted to do at that point.
Speaker 1:You found comfort in swimming and teaching swimming, yeah and being in and around the pool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I did a lot of well, not a lot, but little bits of work around, swimming, whatever. I could do with childcare as well, and that sort of led me to know that I was pretty good with kids. Yeah, yeah, all little bits, yeah, these little things.
Speaker 1:It's that exploration because you're teaching children. Well, well, actually I've assumed you were teaching children most yes, little ones, yeah, yeah, you're teaching these little ones, which is clearly giving and gave you a sense of enjoyment to, to educate, to help those little ones learn you're doing then child care.
Speaker 2:So there's, there's a theme bubbling away there was yeah, yeah, and I didn't really realise that's what was. I just sort of was like, all right, I've got to do some work. Yes, you know may as well stay in the pool for another three, four hours. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of water. It was a lot in the water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say, when you think about that period, that there was in period the, the training, the sort of training, the teaching, things like that. What was the? It's a lot of time to be in the water oh yeah, my feet were disgusting okay, I guess that was one of the worst parts of it. Luckily, I think, we're recording mid-length up, so we should, we should be okay. But what I would say then is so I'm trying, I'm thinking of your feet now.
Speaker 2:So I'm like that's it fully distracted.
Speaker 1:No, it's good. It's good we're gonna. We won't pan the cameras down, but I guess I'm trying to think what the hardest, what was the hardest thing for you at that time?
Speaker 2:the hardest thing, like life-wise or swimming, career-wise.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess like it's managing that together. It's you preparing, come off. You've come off. Your first Paralympics, prepping for your world champs or nationals world champs, having to work or doing work at the same time. What did you struggle with most during that time?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I think that I had my my training down pat, so that was good. I was getting a bit of an income just because I was doing some work around it, so those sorts of things were were on track. That was okay. Something that I did struggle with and still struggle with a little bit is is the inherent discrimination that we face during the whole swimming career. Like we always felt like not we, I shouldn't say that I always sort of felt that we had to fight for, to be valued, to be seen as parallel and it is still an ongoing, I shouldn't say fight, but it is something we work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is a struggle. And so when you talk about getting that sort of parity, that parity just trying to understand how granular is this, parity in time in the pool, parity to have access to the pool, to be able to even get into the pool, I mean.
Speaker 2:No, that was all you know. I trained with a squad, the local squad. That was a very good squad. We had a couple of Olympians there.
Speaker 2:So, you know, that was my community, was my like community, that was fine, that was all good. It's more the public perception. I think a good example is what's something I get very often when people say, oh, you went to the Olympics, I'm like, no, no, I went to the Paralympics. And they're like, ah, don't downplay it. Or you know, oh, they're the same thing. And I was like, was like, oh, it's really not downplaying it, it's, um, I'm very proud of being a Paralympian and I think that sort of shows that yeah it's an ongoing thing that I really, really would like to I don't know the better word to say it um.
Speaker 1:I'd like to have some influence yeah, and I guess changing that perspective. There's a public perspective that by saying Paralympics, it makes it a lesser event or spectacle than the olympics that's right and I think so, and so I do.
Speaker 2:I do say intentionally correct people I don't feel very comfortable correcting, but I do intentionally correct now just because I'm like no, I would like it to be to be known as the paralympics. Yeah, that I can do you do, but I think throughout my swimming career especially Commonwealth Games in 2002, that was quite difficult for me. Actually, there was a lot of discrimination on that team. I don't know if I'm able to say that, but that's how it was for me.
Speaker 1:We're talking about your perspective and how you felt during that time.
Speaker 2:That was quite hard. That time was quite hard to deal with that.
Speaker 1:What made it hard to deal with?
Speaker 2:I didn't feel like we were very welcome on the team. Our names were left off the handbooks for the team and things like that, and it was the first time that athletes with disabilities were included as a complete part, not just as an exhibition event. So that was great to be a part of it I'm very proud of like being on that first team that was, that was a part of it but the experience was not my favorite.
Speaker 1:No, I mean because you, you've grown up, you've competed during that shift, during that recognition from a five minute show reel to well reasonably equitable television time, which is wonderful, don't get me wrong, it is wonderful to see.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I have had to go through those years of you know.
Speaker 1:And that's something you know, I think for many of the athletes that I speak with on here. I guess that type of discrimination or parity hasn't come up for you as a person. What you're having to go through is finding balance in life, everyday life, but then also dealing with a sport type where it's not as welcomed, or at least it doesn't seem to be as welcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was like I have to be, to be to be honest and say like 90 percent of it was wonderful, but it's just that added added layer of feeling like we're like oh, here we go again you know, you know the comments like aren't aren't you good for having a go?
Speaker 2:and you know that's what the Paralympics is about having a go like my ass. It's about having a go like I'm in there to win same as every other, every other Olympian, a go. So it sort of makes me giggle, but it's like it is quite serious.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Well, it is. I love the competitive edge coming out here. It's like I'm not having a go, I'm winning.
Speaker 2:That's about it, yeah for sure we wouldn't say it to an Olympian, don't say it to a Paralympian, no, and I think that competitive edge still comes out in you.
Speaker 1:Now it does sneak out. Yeah, yes, yeah, I think um well, one of our friends when swimming with you. Is that seem about right?
Speaker 2:yes, yes yes, yeah, we went um the the morning, swim through the waves, and I I still get a bit nervous with the big waves, but I was like, oh, can you stay with me, just to get out through the big surf. And then I think I just went.
Speaker 1:And then you went. You just left him to deal with the waves and you went.
Speaker 2:Where'd you go? Yeah, I do like my ocean swimming now. So I do feel like sometimes in those races I do get a little bit competitive and I like being able to catch up to the person in front of me.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yeah, and so look, think, thinking about then for you at your, your swimming career. When did you start to realize this is it I'm, I'm going to be done from for swimming?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I can't pinpoint the exact time, I know. So 2002 world championships was really like the pinnacle, like that was. Everything flowed beautifully, I competed very well and our team did as well. It was just, yeah, fun, it was wonderful and fun. 2003, I remember getting a few illnesses, like my body started to show signs of wear and tear. You know, at the ripe old age of what 22, 23, like you know, shoulders crap out.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I just had a few things that were sort of niggling and I think at that point I was like, right, 2004,. I have what I want to do. I wanted to medal, and then I was like, no, that's it, I'm done after that. So I don't know if it was like a specific point in time, but 2003 was tricky just dealing with medical things.
Speaker 1:So 2004,. You'd set your mind okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're going to.
Speaker 2:No pressure, I'm going to medal, I'm going to medal, and then I'm going to retire. That's it. Yep, that was it. Yeah, I'm going to middle and then I'm going to retire. That's it. Yep, that was it.
Speaker 1:Yeah and well. So as you were in that final race and were coming up to the okay, maybe you didn't think about it as you came up to the wall. Oh. I think I did oh, maybe not my 100 butterfly, but I think the final race I did.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I actually do remember hitting the wall and just going. I never want to do a 100-metre butterfly in my life again. Wow, okay, you know what I mean. It was just like. And then, after that race, that last race I did I honestly remember this feeling of my body just going. Well, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, you are done. You know it is very physically and mentally taxing, very, and I just, I just didn't, didn't have that motivation or the, the strength to. It's not that, I just knew I was done and I think I was really fortunate to be able to go. This is what I want to do. I did it and then I stopped and I'm really happy with that. I was very fortunate that I was able to do that, yeah and what was next?
Speaker 1:what had you planned to be next?
Speaker 2:one. I did not want to look at a swimming pool for an extended period of time, which I did not, but I knew I wanted to do something in teaching by that point right so I don't think I was quite up to. I think I'd missed the the intake for that university year and.
Speaker 2:I moved up to Brisbane at that point in time. Yeah, so I did a diploma so I could work in a child care center with the preschoolers, um, and I remember doing that and being like, oh, this isn't quite enough. Um, and that's when I um, like I intended to go to uni, but I just, I just knew that there was other things that I'm like teaching was where I was going to right, okay, yeah, and what?
Speaker 1:what was it? What do you think it was at that time that drew you to? There was other things that I'm like. Teaching was where I was going to. Right, okay, yeah, and what?
Speaker 2:was it? What do you think it was at that time that drew you to teaching? Well, I'd done a lot of swimming, teaching, that's right.
Speaker 1:By that point you could have gone into swimming teaching full time or yeah, again, I did not want to see a ball.
Speaker 2:Okay, that was probably one of the motivators with that one. That was it okay, I wanted to do something away from it, that's for sure. I loved education. I loved child development like learning about all that area. So that's sort of what drew me to teaching and it was just I just knew it was the right thing and I think I do think athletes have got pretty good intuition and I think athletes are pretty good at listening to their intuition. I think that's just something I was able to do.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by intuition?
Speaker 2:I think, as an athlete, you have to be able to listen to your body. You know that I'm going to this competition. This is where I'm heading towards. Yes, it's a goal, but it's also like an intrinsic knowing of this is what is right for me. You don't have to stop and go. Should I be a swimmer, or should I do this, or should I do this? It's just you know it head to toes, like you know it. Same sort of deal with teaching. That's sort of what I felt is that that's what I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, you felt natural, you were in a flow. I guess in the pool you have a flow and you so I'm. I'm putting words into your mouth, but it's in teaching, or at least with children there you felt a similar thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tried to do a little bit of speaking adults terrified of speaking in front of but kids I was fine yeah you know that sort of was a pretty good indicator. Can wrangle a hundred kids or so, but adults no thanks okay, see you look for the challenge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you find the children, I'll do them.
Speaker 2:They believe anything though the kids, not the adults.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so where to next? I mean, so you, you knew there was this education, you'd done it. You started a diploma, you were doing some teaching, educating what was next Teaching Real world.
Speaker 2:Yeah know I was very again fortunate to land at a beautiful school in Brisbane, very philosophy based. I just found it very interesting.
Speaker 1:I did well at uni, so I was awake which helped a lot yeah, so well, actually, on the uni thing, do you feel you could have done university whilst being a competitive swimmer?
Speaker 2:me. No, I'm just a person that I needed to focus on one thing at a time. I know that there are a lot of athletes who are very good at segmenting and this is where I do this study, this is where I do this and some of them have been very successful with that. But that's not. It's not how I worked I needed to focus on my swimming and then afterwards I could focus on my uni.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I loved it. I loved learning. I found that you know, like I said, I could retain information. I could listen.
Speaker 1:Where did you hope your degree and the teaching would take you?
Speaker 2:I think at that point in my life I was just. I was very, very content to find a school that I felt very at home in. It was a very little hippie school Hippie, I should say, it was a state school but, it was a wonderful school, but I sort of had this also the pull during that time.
Speaker 2:Actually, I think I've been teaching for a few years at that point and I wanted to travel, I'd done sort of I went over for a two-week stint and I wanted to travel, I'd done sort of I went over for a two-week stint in scotland and ireland. I think and I was like oh, look at me traveling by myself in a group tour.
Speaker 2:So you know when you're swimming and when you're competing, you do travel, but really you don't. You don't focus on your surroundings. Your brain is yeah, is focused on what you're you're there to do, which is compete. So I wanted to go back over and just discover the world a bit more, and I loved it and that's what I realized like right. I need to spend more time doing this and I've got zero regrets. I I ended up living and working teaching overseas for a very long time yes, and how did that come about?
Speaker 1:how did you like?
Speaker 2:you said yeah, you want to travel.
Speaker 1:Great, you traveled quite, incidentally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell me about that um, just, you know, there's these things that happen in my life. I went over with my, my overly packed suitcase yes, I was going to live with my sister in paris and mosey on over to wherever I, yeah, felt like going and just have some time to see the world. And I remember being over there and having this feeling like I'm being a tourist but I'm not living, I'm not really sort of getting into the life of living overseas and it just happened to be the government Queensland government education system.
Speaker 2:They wanted me to do my rural service. So they were kind of like, sent me a letter saying you're not going back to your beautiful little school, we're going to pick you up and put you in the middle of nowhere. And I was just like that's not for me, I don't want to do that. I think it's a great thing to do but for me at that point in time I didn't want to and that's when I started looking for jobs, actually had with this like few, few months. I remember just going. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I had the chance to really go and travel and not really think about it too much. But then I discovered the world of international teaching and I it was quite a philosophy based curriculum which really sort of yeah, spoke to me, so from yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:So you for one heading overseas? I guess you had your sister in paris that yeah gave you a bit of a base.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was, that was wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, very grateful you could do that and then, ultimately, you're able to find work teaching in yeah, where were you first? Which?
Speaker 2:um germany. I was in düsseldorf in düsseldorf and you found funny little school. Yeah, yeah, it was wonderful, just wonderful, and I still think traveling is one of the best things that we can do to open our eyes to just other ways of living the world.
Speaker 1:Being independent, yeah well, that's right and and so for you at that time. Was that it Were you like? Right, I am teaching, I'm an international teacher in Europe. Off I go, that's it. I'm set for well, I'll say for life. Was that the kind of the idea?
Speaker 2:For that point in time. I've never been very good at having like long term plans, because every time I've set those long term plans, the universe has kind of gone. That's very funny. This is what you're doing instead. Every time I've set those long-term plans, the universe has kind of gone. That's very funny. This is what you're doing instead. So I loved that teaching at that time over there. It was also very much away from swimming life here. I don't want to say it was like escaping, but it was I was anonymous over there.
Speaker 1:So now I look back at it and I'm like well, a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think it has a part to do with it. I was. I was anonymous, completely anonymous you know. We know what Sydney's like and especially you know northern beaches. Here you can't really walk around too far without knowing anyone. But yeah, I loved the anonymity. I like discovering the world um yeah, I could go anywhere with a backpack and didn't know where I was going to end up it was great.
Speaker 1:When did you look out? Did you swim whilst you were there, here and there, and then went to Denmark. Was it Denmark, germany for about eight?
Speaker 2:years and then Denmark for about three years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There were pools around. They're funny, quite different to what we're used to here. All over the shop what do you mean, the pools are different.
Speaker 1:There's no german efficiency over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you mean? The pools?
Speaker 1:are different. Um, yeah, they're not all saltwater pools, or oh, it's just um oh, there was like I was.
Speaker 2:I was living in munich, which? Was a beautiful place, so we had the the olympic pool there, which was beautiful, so it was packed. It was packed yeah but um. A sports swimmer over there is quite different to an Australian sports swimmer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, wonderful experience, or something. I loved it, I have to say. I loved it.
Speaker 1:And so, whilst you were so you know this, shift your second wind effectively. Is this teaching overseas? Yeah, Education I suppose really is that passion. It's something you know and those we've spoke about is you were loving it. It was something that was set for you From a. You know we speak about parity, so you, when you were a para swimmer, you were given. Oh, you're swimming, just you're a para swimmer. But there was this sense of you were able to compete and you had this, this competitive life as an educator.
Speaker 1:I don't think we have para educators and I don't know fully able. Yeah, to what extent did you face? I don't know. The children have discrimination towards their teachers.
Speaker 2:Oh man, the stories we can tell about the children. Like they are just so open and curious. Yes, and being in one school for a long period of time, the kids all they are is curious and I don't mind that at all, I think it's a very good thing to have a teacher with a disability.
Speaker 1:How so.
Speaker 2:I think that I'm able to help the kids know that just being who they are is wonderful, and we had very, very different classes. We had very mixed classes with all different sorts of abilities in there, and that's something I do love about teaching is that I know that the kids in my class they loved being themselves, Things like they would say it was, it was so funny, so funny.
Speaker 2:They would be like oh, but you're a very good clock, Miss Bailey, and okay like the way that I do it because I get them to tell the time, because I've got a little arm and a big arm, so I pretend to do the clock, and that's how we learn how to do the clock.
Speaker 1:You know I like that. Yeah, they do love that.
Speaker 2:They would fight over who got to hold my little arm and you know they they'd have tantrums with their parents because they wanted to have the same hand as me. It's like, well, you can't really. No, you're great how you are yes, yeah, yeah, funny yeah it was a beautiful world, to be honest yeah um, yeah, they, they. They sort of get their questions over and done with in the first five minutes and that's about it you know yeah. That's what I love about children they just they go okay. Well, that's my teacher.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's it. It's another normal yeah that's it. And so for you then, that period of life, because here we are chatting in Sydney, not in Europe, so for you, I guess, that came to an end. How planned was it for you then to look at that, that period of your life and say, oh right, was it a touch the wall moment I'm out, or was?
Speaker 2:it different it was a hard one it's probably one of the hardest things that I've had to deal with in the last years. You know, I like I do have to take accountability as well. It was just a very silly visa issue. I was very happy, like I was starting to do open water swimming over there.
Speaker 1:Open water swimming um sorry, open water swimming in denmark yeah, it was cold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, beautiful, like it was beautiful um beautiful okay yeah, it was it was a lovely little community yes, yeah, I yeah, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:I had a, you know nice apartment.
Speaker 2:I had great school, great set of friends. You know just tick those boxes again, and it was just literally one day to the next of you've got to get out of the country. There's a problem with your visa, and that was a hard, a hard one, because I, I was, I couldn't go back to my beautiful.
Speaker 1:Danish, the Danish world, piggly world. Yeah, how was that feeling for you?
Speaker 2:Just shattering, absolutely shattering, and I still struggle with it sometimes because I was just very happy with the teaching over there. You know, like I said, ticked the boxes. I've sort of come to the point where I'm like there's a lot of positives being back here. It's not really what I intended. I still have a storage container in Denmark with some really nice Danish furniture in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm seeing the positives here and trying to go with the intuition again so going back to that one and seeing where I can make some positive impact yeah, and so you've.
Speaker 1:So coming back in to sydney and I know you're doing little bits of teaching and things, but so what is coming back to the sort of full circle, back to the swimming pools where your old coaches were, and we're talking about the uh, I don't know what you'd call it, but hearing your old coaches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, doing the starting at the pool last week, far out. Yeah, you're back, I'm intentionally diving into the pool fully clothed? No yeah.
Speaker 1:Being back, what is it that you've now you're enjoying? What are those aspects of your, like you say, looking at the positives? What are those aspects of your career, your lifestyle today that you're thinking, ah, there's an avenue that I can continue. I want to push a little bit further.
Speaker 2:I think one part is the open water swimming. I was never an open water swimmer here, I was a pool swimmer. But that community is a very beautiful community. So that's something I've been able to sort of, I don't know, weedle my way into I community. So that's something I've been able to sort of, I don't know, weed on my way into I shouldn't say that, but um become part of you know, become a part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I guess it's a welcoming community.
Speaker 2:You've been welcomed into it yeah yeah that part's been wonderful, but I think I don't even know how I got back into the school sport side of it. But no, there was a, there was an award ceremony and there is an award that's named after me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know what's the Kate Bailey award. Oh gosh, is it Catherine Bailey?
Speaker 2:No, I feel really weird talking about it, but it's in the independent school system where it's just the athlete with a disability which is lovely.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, it's a lovely thing to be a part of, and I went to the awards ceremony and I'm talking to some of the staff there and they said, actually we need somebody on board that has a bit of knowledge about the multi-class area and I was like, ooh, I would really like to do that. So not too much there at the moment moment, but I'm really hoping it'll grow and that's where I feel the most that pull towards and that most excitement, because it's um it's a nice thing to do.
Speaker 2:It's a good thing to do, I should say.
Speaker 1:I think yeah, it feels good. Well, it doesn't. Well, it sounds great. I mean the, obviously the. The kate bailey award itself sounds fantastic. I'm sure you're the first person I've had on here who's got an award named after them. All the other guests are now going to be messaging me saying no, you never asked me about that, it's just.
Speaker 2:You know I am proud of it, but it's not a huge thing, Kate, it's a big thing.
Speaker 1:I will say it.
Speaker 2:I think you know.
Speaker 1:I'll take back humility. That's a wonderful thing, Thank you. But look for those. How does it feel? And I'm not sure what my question is, but I'm thinking of you've got, did you say multi-discipline? Did you say multi, Multi-class, Multi-class? So you said multi-class. I'm playing with words here. Live so we'll see. Think of a multi-class athlete who is being recognized as the athlete of the year, winning your award, right? So they're striving not to be you, but you've sort of set a North Star for them to achieve. How does that feel for you?
Speaker 2:It was a little emotional, to be honest, because I went to the pool to watch. Well, not to watch, to be a team manager, I guess for the multi-class swimmers and it was quite emotional seeing how far it's developed, seeing how many athletes there are, how many swimmers with disabilities there are that are involved, which is just wonderful, and seeing how much they are just a part of it. It wasn't, you know, swimming when the credits were rolling anymore. It was getting so much closer to that parody that I was talking about which is very special.
Speaker 2:It's very I don't even like the word special. To be honest, it was. I can't really think of a word for it. It was a beautiful moment. Yeah, and certainly memorable with that as well, which I think is great, because we talk about your impact.
Speaker 1:It was a beautiful moment, yeah, and certainly memorable, with that as well and well, which I think is great because we talk about your impact and I suppose I'm curious, because you're at this point now in your life, at this inflection point, where, yeah, you're recognizing, okay, the power swimming, the comp I don't know well, I still reckon there's an age group power swimming coming in here somewhere, but the competitive swimming is, is, is is parked for now. Um, you've got this educational career, teaching, you know, coming out and sort of moving into this next phase which is sort of pulling these bits together, and I think the impact you're already having is again you've.
Speaker 1:You've got people striving yeah um, already, and now you're thinking how can you best?
Speaker 2:well, that's it. It's sort of still in the works at the moment, so I'm, I'm, I'm sort of got my, my feelers out, ears out for what I can do to have some impact in that area yeah, yeah, and it's going slowly and I'm happy with what I'm doing right now. Yeah, I think there's a lot more to do yeah yeah, and that part's exciting that is.
Speaker 1:That is it's really exciting and I think you know, be it on driving the investment in the right places and, you know, helping individuals. I think, I think that could be, I could, I think that could be wonderful yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot to do in the development of um para swimming, um at like grassroots sort of level.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah and look, I'm sure there are people watching and listening who are thinking, yes, I'd like to, I'd like to be a part of that, and we'll have to put your contact details or whatever in the in the show notes so people can pester you, uh, and try and be part of it.
Speaker 2:I think. I think it's also important to say that there are a lot of um, like the grassroots organization that do a lot of work for developing athletes Wheelchair Sports New South Wales, for example.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of other organizations that do a lot of work to help athletes and swimmers have that space, yes, which is good, and I think what we can do to help broaden that space or at least make that space more visible. Is is certainly a positive. Well look, kate, I guess kind of my final questions really uh I suppose, are for those swimmers, maybe not just swimmers, but for those who certainly dream of or going through that, uh, dream of. They probably saw you as one of the show reels in terms of para swimming.
Speaker 2:I hope so. That would be a nice one.
Speaker 1:When you think about them coming through their ranks. What advice or guidance would you give to them to explore things or do things that might help them figure out? What will they do out of the pool?
Speaker 2:I have thought about this. So there's a few things that I would sort of say. I think one would be the education side of it. When you're at school, be kind to yourself Parents as well, you know. We need to have a lot of self-kindness, knowing that even if you don't get the results at school because your focus is somewhere else, that's all, it does not mean that you cannot do what you want to do at any point in time. I think it is a hard ask having you know, two hours before school, two hours after school, of training, and not just training, but like all, all in for every session. So I think I think a bit of kindness to yourself there would be good. I think travel is a big one. What I would always recommend travelling and seeing the world. I think that broadens your perspectives, opens your eyes a lot and, I think, following your intuition, I think listening to your heart. That would be my three things.
Speaker 1:Three things education, travel, listen to your heart. I think those are three very powerful things, kate.
Speaker 2:I hope so yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I really want to say thank you for coming in today and having this conversation.
Speaker 2:I've thoroughly enjoyed it thank you, thanks for having me appreciate it great thanks, kate thank you thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.
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