Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
Former professional footballer Ryan Gonsalves dives deep into the unique challenges and triumphs of transitioning from elite sports to fulfilling careers. Through candid conversations with athletes, the Career Clarity Podcast explores their inspiring journeys, uncovering lessons on identity, resilience, and reinvention. Whether you're an athlete or simply seeking inspiration for your next chapter, this podcast will empower you to unleash your second wind.
Ryan Gonsalves transitioned from professional football with Huddersfield Town in the English Footbaal League, to a career in financial services by leveraging his adaptability, transferable skills, and willingness to embrace new opportunities.
While playing semi-professional football, he pursued education and began working at GE Money Capital Bank, where he gained global experience and developed expertise in Lean Six Sigma and process improvement. His sports background often helped him stand out during interviews, creating memorable connections with hiring managers.
Later, Ryan joined HSBC in Hong Kong, where he worked for nearly a decade in consumer banking, focusing on global projects such as researching homeownership behaviors. His ability to understand consumer insights and behavior became a cornerstone of his success in the financial sector. After over 20 years in banking (including back in Australia at AMP, Westpac, COmmenwealth Bank and NSW Treasury, Ryan transitioned into career coaching, inspired by helping fellow athletes navigate their post-sports careers.
Ready to take the next step? Connect with Ryan at letschat@2ndwind.io.
Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
159: Sophia Parvizi-Wayne: Finding Balance When You Want to Be the Best at Everything
What do you do when the one thing you thought you were meant to do doesn’t work out?
In this episode, we meet Sophia, a former academy footballer who faced the heartbreak of being released before ever turning pro. But instead of letting it define her, she turned the page and built something even more powerful.
From navigating identity loss to finding her voice in the corporate world, Sophia shares the raw truth about rejection, self-worth, and what happens when your plans fall apart but you don’t.
Now in tech and on a mission to lead with purpose, she opens up about the inner work, the setbacks, and the mindset shifts that helped her rewrite her story.
What You’ll Hear:
- The moment Sophia’s football dream ended and what she did next
- Why being released from an academy rocked her sense of self
- How sport shaped her presence, mindset, and leadership style
- The shift from performance pressure to personal power
- Building a meaningful career without losing her identity
How she found clarity by tuning out the noise
Advice for anyone who's had to pivot before they were ready
💡 Golden Nugget
“I thought I had to prove I was enough. But letting go of that idea is what gave me peace and purpose.”
If You’ve Ever Wondered…
- Am I more than my role or title?
- What happens if the plan doesn’t work out?
- Can I reinvent myself and still feel like me?
This one’s for you!
🔗 Need Career Clarity?
Visit www.2ndwind.io to learn more or book a session.
Let’s help you figure out what’s next and build a career that fits where you are now.
What made you think about the US college system as that next path for you?
Speaker 2:I didn't. I hadn't. So I did my GCSEs. Obviously they were pretty good. I did a lot of them. I did far too many. I had no time. I did 13. I think everyone else did like eight or nine. I did weird ones. I was like I'm going to do drama outside of school. Yes, I will do further maths, did my GCSEs. They were pretty good. And then after my A-levels, me and my family decided it would be best that I deferred because I'd lived such a like. You know, I was campaigning, I was running, I was social, I was very much. You know ASARs always and they were like she needs a break, she needs to go be fun.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after all. Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
Speaker 1:Sophia, thanks for joining me on the show today. Super excited to be here, brilliant. And now I appreciate, and you have mentioned, that you are feeling a little bit under the weather, although I still suspect your sparkly personality will still shine through this conversation as we delve into a bit of your past from an athletic perspective, academic perspective, but also talk a bit about what you're up to now and sort of where you're heading, because I think there's so much for those listening and watching to learn from what you're going through.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I think you expect too much of me, but I will bring as much sparkle as you want and I will attempt to do my best. Um, but we're gonna go too easy.
Speaker 1:That's good. I will well listen, as I, as I say to many, I think I'm going to enjoy our conversation. Hopefully you do too, and that's all that really matters, and we'll take the rest from there. Now, for those who don't know you and are tuning in, what really want to learn this lesson, can you just give us that quick intro, that little bit of spiel as to who you are and what you're up to?
Speaker 2:oh, I feel like I do this every day with pitching, so I'm going to make it a bit more interesting. People will probably know me as three things, hopefully four. Most people when I was younger would know me as a mental health campaigner, which I used to do in my teens and I'm sure we'll get into that, and also as a recovered anorexic as a kid. Other people will know me for sport, whether it's endurance running or currently high rocks, and then the rest of the people will know me in sport, whether it's endurance running or currently high rocks. Um, and then the rest of people will know me in the tech world as a startup founder in the london ecosystem and also in the middle east. I always say the fourth one is I hope people know me as, like a good friend and a good member of the family, but that would only be the people that know me. Um, hopefully, those four things well, that is great.
Speaker 1:That's four wonderful things for us to actually unpack. And you know, perhaps we I'm interested in starting from. You know you mentioned the the sport person as well. I think that was number perhaps number three in there. Um, talk to us a bit then about you know the sport, that sort of athletic piece for you, certainly growing up.
Speaker 2:Sure, I think we don't really know where it comes from, because neither of my parents are particularly sporty. They're sporty enough, they're fit, but they're not great as well. Um, so I got into sport, I guess probably around the age of seven. It's a long time ago, um, and it was actually at I live in North London. It was actually at I live in North London. It was a year to Camden schools cross country race and it was a one mile lap around this area called Parliament Hill and I ended up running it by half a lap and everyone was like, oh, this girl can run. And then it was the same competition, but for swimming, and it was a 50 meter swim and I run by 25 meters and everyone was like like, oh, she can swim. Um, and you know, any parent who can see their child being good at a sport automatically wants to see how good they are so
Speaker 2:how far you can go. So I was a pretty competitive swimmer up until probably 13, like a national level swimmer. I did not like it, um, I think that's probably the most honest thing I thought was really boring looking at a pool, um, and also 5am starts when you're like 10 years old are just really tough, um. So we started transitioning me towards triathlon for a while, um, and kind of hitting around 14 13, we realized I was just really good at running and wanted to run, and I think that was where my parents were like this is, this is a good one, that she likes it and she's good at it, but I wasn't the best. You know, I'd win a few like London championships or I'd come like second in like South of England, but like I was, I was not the the best. There was just a girl consistently better than me, who's a good friend of mine, called Bobby Clare. She was just better than me all the time still fairly good, though I mean still fairly good.
Speaker 1:I mean you know you're winning, you know there's a lot of people in that south of England, you know type of event, but so yeah, I was running on my talent, not the fact I was working particularly hard I think that's the difference.
Speaker 2:Yes, um, you know, I was still doing my netball. I was still doing my hockey at school. I was still going to like learn tap dance.
Speaker 1:Um, and tap dance sophie absolutely not.
Speaker 2:If anyone who saw me at the wedding this weekend would say I cannot dance to save my life, um, but I try. I'm a trier, um, and can I be honest that it all that matters, except with dancing, where you do need natural talent? I'm going to be honest, no amount of effort will ever make me a good dancer, um, and kind of I think it was around 14, 15, especially when you're young, um. There is two things going on. You have particularly young women that feel like they need to be thinner anyway, and then you have endurance athletes, which have this kind of uneducated assumption that the lighter you are, the faster you go. That only really lasts a very narrow window, um, and as the extremist I am, I ended up developing very, very severe anorexia nervosa, so I lost about 40% of my body weight within eight months.
Speaker 1:So just tell me, sophia, for those like me who don't really know what's anorexia.
Speaker 2:So anorexia is fundamentally an eating disorder and you know eating disorders are anything from overeating to undereating and mine was very much moving from restricted eating to lose weight to actually having a fear of food and a fear of eating, um, and that's a combination of kind of like you know, psychological. You need a lot of therapy. But it's also weight um, I never say the amount I lost. I say around 40 percent um, but you know I dropped out of all running for a year, did not touch anything with exercise. My life was do my GCSEs gain the weight back and spent about nine months eating about 6,000 calories a day to get it back. Yeah, hard, hard. But interestingly came back into into sport, fueling really well, um, and with a desire to be like I'm going to treat my body the way it should be treated.
Speaker 2:Um, and that year coming back into the sport at 17 um with you know I was menstruating. That's another big thing. You know you lose your periods if you don't your periods, if you have an eating disorder. I broke the national record for steeplechase. I ended up winning three English championships in a row. I ran for Great Britain and suddenly was considered very good and we were all a bit like whoa, whoa, whoa. We didn't actually think she was going to be that good. And then that's, I guess, where things really picked up. I got an athletic scholarship to the us um and went from there yeah, I mean, look it's, it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a fascinating story already, just from that school girl championship level representing country. Um, clearly, you know, represent the country competing internationally. That that period where you said it's now a window of an eating disorder kicking in it, you, you, you went over it and I guess it's something you, you know well, as we'll go on to. I know it's something that you do speak about and you say is well, is it quite not? Is that normal? And is it specifically in girls or women where you tend to see that taking place?
Speaker 2:Sadly, I think it has been very normalised in sports, right, I think there's two. There's kind of two eating disorders I guess for me that co-occurred at the same time, which is suddenly the name has gone but compulsion with the idea of eating healthy, which is we see that in men a lot right and that manifests in different ways. So you know, we see actually a lot of gym goers, you know steroid users, that it's a similar kind of eating disorder. And then there is anorexia, which is, you know, you lose weight, you get osteoporosis, so my bones are slightly weaker than others, probably from manifestations of a long time ago. And then you know your periods. Your periods go, you start growing more hair on your arms. It is a lot more common than it should be, but I think the sports world is starting to catch up. I think we've seen a lot of kind of, I think we've seen a lot of changes on what recovery looks like. You know, the thinner you are, you're not going to be faster for that much longer.
Speaker 1:We're now getting tested for whether we have periods or not, um, but it is more common with women generally anorexia nervosa and perhaps it's something we'll we'll touch on a bit later when we talk about, you know, the focus, or some of the focuses, as you said, as a mental health advocate, what what that looks like. I'm interested because you were going through, therefore, a lot of things. I know you took that step out of sport for a period. It's perhaps a double question. How hard was it for you to come back from that period to both mentally and physically, to then start to achieving that?
Speaker 2:you know those highs then of you know British championships and and uh and records yeah, I think I always say to my parents and I really believe this, I think I could be the best at everything, um, which works in my favor and doesn't right. But I remember, midway through my eating disorder, I got a letter from like British athletics about junior world champs. Obviously I was not going to go, I was not well, but I was suddenly like what am I doing? You know, like you kind of take a step out by yourself and I'm like I've kind of lost everything. You know, I'd lost my first boyfriend.
Speaker 2:Um, I was being difficult with my friends, I wasn't going out, I wasn't drinking, I was kind of studying for my GCSEs, but not at school, um, and I was like I have this exceptional life that I'm losing and I think there was this kind of cognitive switch. Um, also, please know, I had so much therapy. This was not me alone. I had supportive parents, supportive friends, therapy, um. But I was like I can be the best at gaining weight, um, and it was tough, right, and I think you know I remember making my dad when I was 15, go and get me a fish and chips, and my dad was like I think this is a bit soon, when you're scared of food, to go from struggling to eat an apple to fish and chips and I sat there with my hands shaking trying to eat it. And it was this kind of battle from can Sophia overtake the disorder, and it was really tough. It wasn't fun.
Speaker 2:I think I make it sound a lot easier than it was, partially because your brain blocks out trauma, right, I can't really remember it, but I think, as I started to see that you know, when I die, this is such a weird thing to say no one is going to have on my gravestone Sophia, who was a size six and thin or you know, and obviously that you know, and obviously an eating disorder is, and obviously anything I need, anything disorder is a lot more than that.
Speaker 2:It's a psychological disorder and it goes way beyond that. But I think having that memory that you know I hadn't really gained anything, I'd lost a lot, um, made me really like that thought of you know, the potential I had, uh, was really important. I remember my coach at the time, a guy called James had said to me he was like anyone can be thin, but not anyone can do what you do. Um, so every time I had these, like you know, little fears or my way in hadn't gone the way I wanted, or I saw the numbers going up. I was like I'm actually getting closer to doing all those things that no one else can do.
Speaker 1:I mean that that in itself is just really powerful. Just talking about that experience, um, you know that experience and you mentioned there the support that you had from both counselling, but also that supportive parent or supportive family structure as well around you, which is great. You mentioned, during that time, as you stepped away from sport, you did maintain a focus on your academic activities. So this is you, as you're saying, 15, 16, starting to push forward how, in, how important then what? What gave the importance to sort of academic performance as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, as I said, I like being the best at everything. Um, but not only that. Like, I come from a very academic family. Like very um, I'm I'm the dumb one in the family, and that's saying something. Um, you know, my brother was a chess grandmaster at eight years old. My mum speaks eight languages. My dad's a doctor, um, and I'm not. I always say this I'm bright, but I work hard. You know my GCSEs. I was suddenly like, I'm going to study 12 hours a day and my reward will be you know, I can go see my friends for 20 minutes and come back in, um, and I love studying. I know I sound like such a loser, but I actually get such a thrill out of doing an exam. It's like the same. I do exactly the same ritual before an exam as I do before, like a run, like I'm like okay, like before a race and an exam, I do before a run, I'm like, okay, before a race and an exam, I do the exact same thing.
Speaker 1:I get my highlighters out. Yeah, I was going to say what's this ritual? I'm going to get my highlighters out now.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, it's the weirdest ritual and no one should do it Before any race, and that includes the way I race. Now I have to go to the bathroom nine times. I don't actually go, I have to just sit in the bathroom and I have to do two Arayne and Persian.
Speaker 2:I have to do two Persian prayers, followed by the Lord's prayer, which I used to do at school, but I'm not Christian and then I'd have to do it like backwards, and I'd have to do it nine times and then I'd have to race okay yeah, it makes absolutely no sense, but I started doing it and I was 15 and I won a race and now I'm 28 and still doing it, but I'd approach exams the same way yeah, I was going to say these rituals, if anything, what they do cycle up, their calm is down, they get us in the right flow state.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, yeah I like routine.
Speaker 2:I think when you have adhd which I do the best thing you can do is build in routine and I'm like I'm going to do the same thing in any stressful situation yes, yeah, that's right complex, but I get it. That is, uh, that's I recommend someone else finds their own routine, that isn't mine. Because yes, yeah, yeah, the takeaway is a routine.
Speaker 1:Uh, certainly a stressful situation is a positive thing. Toilet nine times, and you know we're going to talk. I'm just thinking. I'm just trying to think. You must have always had to be on track, because but some of the cross-country, how do you? Anyway, it doesn't matter, maybe that's an off recording, you know where are you going. To the toilet nine times.
Speaker 2:Behind a tree.
Speaker 1:behind a tree this is there we go. We'll keep going, we'll keep going. Uh, yeah, um. So academic was a strong focus for you. Uh, definitely, yeah again. I guess, alongside you want it, wanting to be that best that that you know, striving for excellence is something that certainly motivated you there. So when you started to think, okay, what you know, where did you start to think this could get to this athletics? Where did you want it to go? What did being the best mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, I've always said this and I speak about this quite regularly I don't believe me being my best means having one identity, um. So I never thought I would solely be an athlete. I still didn't think that precluded me from being the best. But I love learning, um, and I think when you stop learning, like life kind of ends. Um, and I think you know, I think it depends on how much you can do at once.
Speaker 2:But I was very much like you know, I had this multiple dream that I would go to the Olympics and I would also be a war correspondent in the Middle East. I always kind of thought I would do these two things at once and I never really had to choose because I was so young. You just sacrifice other things, right? I wasn't, that's a lie. I was drinking, but you know I wasn't going out as much. My whole life has been a life of schedules because you have to manage your time so well. I always know, like I was always going to go to university. That was not like a, like that is one of the biggest opportunities you have to socialize, I think, and like learn about other cultures and other people. Like I was not going to give up everything for sport, and maybe that's why I didn't go to the Olympics, um, but I felt like I've lived a very well-rounded life because of that yes, you are living a very well-rounded life and but you know sort of making some of those, those choices.
Speaker 1:So what, then and perhaps leading question in this sense, but what made you think about the US college system as as that next path for you?
Speaker 2:I didn't. I hadn't. Um, so I did my GCSEs. Obviously they were pretty good. I did a lot of them. Um, I did far too many. I had no time. I did 13. I think everyone else did like eight or nine. I did weird ones. I was like I'm gonna do drama outside of school. Yes, I will do further maths. Um, did my GCSEs. They were pretty good.
Speaker 2:And then after my A levels, me and my family decided it would be best that I deferred. Uh, because I'd lived such a like you know I was campaigning, I was running. I was because I'd lived such a like you know I was campaigning, I was running, I was social, I was you know very much, you know always. And they were like she needs a break, she needs to go be fun. Um, so I ended up taking a gap year. I actually let loose a bit. You know I got a misspelt tattoo. Um, I lost my virginity. Sorry, I don't know if I can say that I'm here, but you know I was drinking with random. Know, I was drinking with random men on boats. I was getting tattoos. I'm still running, but actually I was just like very happy.
Speaker 2:I lived in Australia, I lived in India and midway through I think it was coming to the end of my gap year I was just really good at running. I don't know what happened. I got a 5k PB. Really good at running, I don't know what happened. I got a 5k pb. I got a 10 kpb, I got three. It was just all like it was a sign that when you're at your happiest, you perform the best. Doesn't matter how you get there, but if you're happy, you're doing well.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I get this call from this man called Rob who the hell is, rob? I don't know? And he was like hi, um, I'm calling to be your agent. And I was like an agent, an agent for what? What? Like social media, I don't know. I had a big Instagram at the time.
Speaker 2:Um, and he was like no, no, no, you're going to suddenly get a lot of messages from the U? S now. And I was like I know, but like I want to go to Oxford, like I don't, the U? S wasn't really on the agenda, it's really expensive. Um, my parents will not be paying a hundred grand a year.
Speaker 2:Um, um, and he was like no, no, you're going to be my example of me starting my agency. I'm going to do it for you. We're going to, we're going to get all the people going to pick which ones you want to go. You're going to go and visit them for free. And I was like what the hell going on, um? So I told my mom I was like, yeah, we have a few more months of my gap year. Do you mind if we just take a month off and go and explore all these places? You don't have to pay? And I was like with all 18 year old, like talking to different schools, and she was like, yeah, yeah, of course. Um, and all my I think my parents were kind of just like she's, she's gone weird again, she's gone rogue, but we'll let her do it.
Speaker 2:Um, I know, and they were allowed to pick eight schools in the US for official visits, um, and I picked, I got, I got off, honestly, I got 200 like official offers.
Speaker 2:Um, we picked Harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, duke, uh, like Berkeley, ucla, um, and I think, deep down, my mum wanted me to go to Yale, my dad wanted me to go to Harvard, and I walked on the campus of Duke University, which is in North Carolina, uh, which is, I'd say I'm obviously gonna say it, but I think it's the best known for sports and academic. Um, and was just like. I went to a basketball game at Duke and we are very known for basketball and I just told my parents I was like I'm going here and they were like this is your first school you might want to like, look at Harvard. Went to Harvard was like I hate it. Went to Columbia, I was like I hate it and I just I just fell in love with this school and I was like I'm going to do whatever I can to go to this university and that's where I ended up that's a great story and you know you.
Speaker 1:You had this other plan going to the US. Then how much you know it wasn't in your plans, it wasn't in your original sort of desire. What did you once it became part of your plan? What? What did you hope to achieve by going to uni there or college in the US?
Speaker 2:College. Well done, I think, one. I think I just wanted something very different and I think for me and this is where you know there was a bit of a, I guess, a clash when I got there um was the US is probably the place I think is the best for like well, like balance, like you get an incredible education. That's very generalist I am a generalist, I'm not good at one subject. Um, you get to really engage with like American culture, like join a sorority, you know, do all these weird parties and fields, um, but also you're kind of treated like an Olympic athlete, right, you know you have this like incredibly structured training from.
Speaker 2:You know mine was like 640 to 11 with a PT. You know I had massages every two days, like it. You know my food was free. I was like, oh my god, I get to do everything and I get to live in like boiling hot weather the entire year round, like it was just different, and I think I went to a very competitive school in London and everyone kind of ended up going to great universities, but in the UK and I always feel like when one person goes that way, I have to go the other, so I went the other way what was it like for in the US, that balance for you competing athletically, but then also the academic side?
Speaker 1:did you feel you had been pushed on both avenues to be the best?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I don't know how well publicised it is, but I did leave the Duke track team after two years. Me and my coach did not get on at all. Potentially, I know I'm talented and I think I potentially my desire to do other things and engage in uni life, including, you know, the going out didn't really align very well and I was injured a lot. Um, but I still wouldn't have changed it. Um, I think, look, I, I have always my coach, dan, who was with me for 10 years, has always said like I gave you the illusion of free choice when you trained right, which is what you do with someone like me.
Speaker 2:It's you. You make them feel like they have a choice in their everyday activities. Actually they don't. But he'd be like remember, we're going to do a chime trial tomorrow, so if you do go out, just be cool about it. And I'd be like okay, that means I can do whatever I want. But then I get there and be like I should probably only have one drink, right.
Speaker 2:And it's kind of always been like the illusion of free choice, of the way that made me make the right decision. If your free choice is completely stripped from you, I rebel right, like now I bet I barely drink. I don't drink at all because no one's telling me I can't, um, whereas this was very much, uh, you are not allowed to go out, you are not allowed to go have fun, and I was like you know, you've told me that I'm gonna post all over social media like I was a naughty kid. I was a very naughty kid and I think I can take responsibility for part of it. Um, I also went in with a lot of pressure. You know, I came in at number two in Europe in the 5k for juniors, um, and suddenly the way I trained had completely flipped.
Speaker 1:Um in what way, I loved it I so, yeah, it's always this, you know, I know this, this show it's about that clarity. But it's about that career transition and what I'm learning with the more people I speak to is it life's transitions, they, they keep coming there. It's not always at the end of something, it's just that shift from one to another. And here you're talking about the shift of, like you say, number two in Europe, you know, uk based, uh, competing in Europe, moving over then to the US, one in that college system, but then secondly, the competition and the training shifts. You know it sounds like well, certainly over the two years that wasn't a an awesome transition for you and there was a conflict no, yeah, I think I.
Speaker 2:I know myself very well. Um, and you know, I'm not someone who needs 100, you know, 80 miles a week, 60 miles a week, my body doesn't like that. Um, my body needs sleep. You know I can't go to bed at 9 pm, which means I generally don't like getting up at five to train, whereas suddenly you're in this group where you're forced to do.
Speaker 2:You know, wake up every morning at six, but I'm like what if I have a final, you know, and I need to get that final done, right, it doesn't really work like, I need my sleep. I I know if I'm tired, I don't really want to go to training, I'd rather train in the afternoon. But you have no choice because you've decided to join this group. And that was really hard for me and most people would adjust and I was like but why would I adjust when I do want to do extracurriculars? You know, I want to write for school magazines and I think there's a rigidity when it comes to training there which I haven't really experienced, which definitely works for some people and it just didn't work for me um, earlier you spoke about you.
Speaker 1:You never really saw yourself as just an athlete or that an athlete was going to be the, the anchor to your identity, and what you're describing there is well, it wasn't. It wasn't strong enough of a pull to one, shift your behaviors and and you know, shift what you were comfortable with. So, and especially because you like the academic side just as much as well so when you're going through that time, what would, what was the biggest struggle for you during that two-year?
Speaker 2:period. Honestly, I was a mess for the first two years. The second two years were absolutely great, um, and I kept on running, um. I think I've always said this I always wish there was at least six hours in a day, like I. Just I want to be everyone and everything to everybody, right like I. I want to be able to go out and have fun. I want to be able to do as many extracurriculars I.
Speaker 2:I love academics, but that doesn't make me feel like I'm a worse athlete or a less committed one, because I still think I can do what everyone else does. And I think you know, sometimes you're siloed into being like can I? I'm? You need to be this one identity. And it was even the same social life where I actually wasn't the most committed member of my sorority because I'd be at training or so I think I was starting to be like, oh my god, actually, like I've done too much, like I just can't keep doing all of this, um, and I think, yeah, my third year I was just like I'm gonna strip it all back. I'm just gonna be a human who exists for a bit and how did you come to that decision?
Speaker 2:a big falling out with my coach. My mum got cancer and I was like I should probably be a bit more. You know, one identity I had lost was like I was not being a supportive daughter and I think I was starting to like, you know, you hit 21 and you're kind of like I'm an adult, now maybe I should be more accountable for my decisions and like where do I think any of this is going? And at that point obviously I got it wrong, because I'm now back as an athlete. At that point I kind of thought athletics was kind of done for me.
Speaker 1:And so. But the outcome of that decision, you say for the last two years in college, you enjoyed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I wasn't on the team anymore. I felt like I had full control over what I was doing, um, and look, I think a lot of us are people pleasers, so we, we kind of want to make sure we're making everyone happy. And I think those last two years were how can I make Sophia happy? And like, you know what is the best version of me look like? And at that point in my time it meant, you know, I met a really nice boy, um, which I hadn't really done because I'd really given myself time to do that. You know, I ended up dating him for a number of years. My friend group became a lot stronger.
Speaker 2:I was allowed to go on spring break, um, and I was like, looking back, I'm like you know, I wasn't allowed back then. You know we weren't allowed full break. We went on spring's like, like thanksgiving was two days, um, and I was like I've got this amazing opportunity to be in the us. I like I want to use it. I want to go explore america. That doesn't mean I'd still go on my 10 mile run in the morning, um, but I felt like that was an opportunity. That like that was the opportunity I saw in america. It wasn't. You know great, I can go sit and phone roll for an hour that's the soundbite we're going to use now.
Speaker 2:I love it now and now. I'm like I literally am waiting to see my physio.
Speaker 1:I know you love the phone? Well, I do. The massage gun sorts me out as well. It bands ridiculous. I know I'm not good planes as well yeah, I'm like yeah, who, well I know why, even it's not like we invented them, but who invented IT bands? All they do is hurt yes, stupid.
Speaker 2:We should get rid of them like an appendix that's right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Surely we can run without them. Yeah, there we go. We'll keep that to ourselves so interested. Then college coming out of college, you were running because you enjoyed it all right, a little bit more. So what was next? What? What did you think you wanted to then start to achieve outside of, you know, outside of this US college system? What was next for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I want to be honest throughout college, I thought I wanted to be a journalist, so I studied Middle Eastern history as one major policy, journalism as another one, and then innovation and entrepreneurship for shits and giggles. But I didn't know. You know the US college system, especially one like Duke, because, like everyone is like finance, private equity, consulting, and none of those really they were all very regimented, rule based things. And I was like, well, this is like I did an internship in private equity consulting and none of those really they were all very regimented, rule-based things that I was like, well, this is like I did an internship in private equity. It was like, yeah, sure, I made a lot of money, um, but I was like, this kind of sucks, I have a boss, I just I can't be told what to do. That is basically what I've learned.
Speaker 2:Um, and I had actually started a tech company my last year of college. Um, so random, we were building, we were doing, uh, next generation natural language processing for publishing. Um, so random, um, but it was like fun. And you know, I was like, oh, maybe I can do this out of college and everyone was like this girl is so weird. Like, like, what's she doing, no job opportunities, and I ended up running it for three years out of college. Was it a success? No, Did I learn a lot? Yes, did I get to live in Boston because my ex-boyfriend was working there? Yes, like, I felt like it allowed me to dip my toes into, like, what tech could be like and that when I saw loads of people doing you know the hours they do in investment banking, I was like, yeah, I kind of made the right decision. So my mum's a founder as well and I think there was very much.
Speaker 2:You know, I read this book. It's called the Psychology of Money. It's a very basic book on finance, but they always say, you know, the most successful people are lucky. Right, they have to be lucky in the sense that, like bill gates, was it bill gates?
Speaker 2:Yeah, with bill gates, um, bill gates was there were 300 computers, um, when bill gates was in high school and for some reason he had very, very interested teacher in computers, so that school had one computer, right, which meant that he got to play around with computers way before anyone else did. And he always says if that computer had not been there, microsoft would not exist. There has to be an element of luck right, and I think you know my luck was. I had parents who were like you want to build a company? Prove to us, you can work, you can stay at home for free. We will support you. I had a vision of the, a woman who successfully had sold her tech company and was doing another. One existed, um, and I think I was very lucky with the environment I was born in that I didn't think building successful tech companies were like out of reach for me no, I mean, you're right and I know the psychology of money.
Speaker 1:I think it is a. It's actually a really good book and, like you say, yeah, I think it's a great I don't know basic, almost. It shouldn't sound negative. It's a great foundation book for reading and understanding. Absolutely, you know, and that's exactly right. So, um, I think so with it sounds like for you. Then the next part of this exploration was about going and making your own look. So, coming in, starting a business, giving that a shot, getting to enjoy living in Boston great city, and certainly at a time probably when a lot of the work would have finished, it was just a great city to start living in as well.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it was COVID. I will say it was COVID.
Speaker 1:So every city you lived in, kind of that, just going to say that yeah, it was kind of quieter than on the US, probably a bit more open than certainly here in in Australia. Yeah, but, um, but then I guess during that period you so you know, for me it sounds like you were someone very young female in entrepreneurship tech startup at that time. How easy was it for you to operate in that environment?
Speaker 2:It fucking sucks. I could write a book on it and it doesn't suck because men are shit, like a lot of my. You know, my biggest supporters are men. But yeah, I felt like, look, the company I built before has given me I don't want to say leverage, but the experience to do what I'm doing now and do it more successfully. And I never want to say like the odds are stacked against you, because you can always like flip your odds.
Speaker 2:You know, count some cards, I don't know, but I felt like you were consistently like having to think of ways to sell yourself in a way that, like I don't think men have to do. You know I had never had a track record and a lot of men can raise money without track records. You know, actually my track record was insane. You know I was a pro athlete, young time management, like I had everything that showed that I would be a good founder. You know I had that. I had, you know, a 3.9 GPA from one of the best colleges in the US. I was, you know, a pediatric advisor to the British government at 17. And that still didn't feel like enough. Ultimately, I think that one rejection is great. I think rejection is redirection, and I really do believe that, but I also think I don't think I was building the right thing at the time. So, like I do think, everything kind of happened for a reason, yeah, you know it's interesting.
Speaker 1:You know I was going to ask about then. You've been in that environment and how akin is it to being in this? You know competitive, sporting environment where there literally is one winner and everyone is fighting to be that person? Because it's an entrepreneurial environment that you have stayed in and now moved into your current venture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah, I've always said this I was never very like I love individual sports, like I'm not the best team player, um, but tech is a bit less like that actually. Um, you know you need to learn how to be a good boss. Um, you need to know. You know, ultimately, other people's happiness comes before yours, and I truly do believe that. Um, you know, you want fellow founders around you. You want to be helping them fundraise, because good energy comes back to you. Um, so I think, yeah, there are a lot of lessons I learned from sport which were very applicable to building what I'm building now. Um, and most of that is you know you're not going to win every race, so how do you pick yourself up 100 times and be like I still want to do this?
Speaker 1:um, but ultimately, it felt like I was playing a different game as in, building a business is a different game to being a athlete yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:I also think like when, look, when, I mean we'll get to what I'm doing now, but like I know where the marginal gains lie with sport and how to get better. I know what an injury looks like, I know how to like rehab, rehab, I know all of that stuff. Sometimes, with like building a tech company, you don't really know and you just have to keep figuring it out right and like I think uncertainty is something like you just have to learn to live with.
Speaker 1:Sport doesn't feel as uncertain and so how do you, how do you deal with that? You know someone, like you say, someone who is very particular. Uh, that attention to detail, love that routine, love that process, how do you, how do you deal with that uncertainty in business that you didn't have as an athlete?
Speaker 2:you learn to enjoy it, like I know it sounds weird, but like you have to be like this as part of the process, um, and expect it, right, I think I have. Every day is going to be different. We've already pivoted three times with this company, um, and I always think like the lost time fallacy doesn't really work with startups, right? It's like you know, we've been doing this one for four years. If we pivot again, it's not like the last four years meant nothing. They were just lessons, and I think that's something very different to the way that I treated sport was like. You know how the fuck did I lose this race? I did everything right what.
Speaker 1:So let's come on to where you are today, and what was the inspiration behind where you are today, pivots and included, and then show me, me, give us that pitch about what you are doing today.
Speaker 2:Sure, do we want the sports side or do we want the tech side? Because currently I'm back on the pro athlete side as well.
Speaker 1:That's right. Give us the tech side first.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I work in mental health again, which was probably more of a founder market fit than the last one, but the rationale behind it was a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD. Um, it was around the time of the breakup of the boy that I had just described, um, and I just everything felt really out of control. Service provisions weren't great, um, and kind of, over the period I had left the mental health space in the past, nothing had really changed. You know, access, access to healthcare had gone down, quality of healthcare had gone down, particularly in mental health and neurodevelopment, and children, pediatrics, were just like the most ignored space ever. You know, we build wish-wishy games for kids to like teach them things, but actually, like, there are 250 000 people on an autism wait list right now in the uk. Building them a fucking game isn't going to change anything.
Speaker 2:Um, so around that time this accelerator called entrepreneur first, which is probably the best in the uk, had reached out to me. We're like, we think you should come in and build a mental health company. And that was one day after I decided to leave the last one and I was like, well, that was a quick sabbatical, guess I'm going again and that's what I mean about like the unexpectedness. It's like if you hold yourself to you know I actually need a break. I would have never had the opportunity that I'm now four years down the line if I hadn't accepted that. So what Kanjo does now and you know I'm blessed with a team upstairs I'm currently in the boardroom um, we build kind of predictive models on mental health care.
Speaker 2:So we look at genetics, environmental, neonatal, so what happens during the mother during pregnancy, and we build models that look at risk prediction and then actually deliver care based off that. That's personalized and it's fun. It's actually. It's really hard. It's not always fun, most of it sucks, um, but you know you feel like you're the right person to be doing this and you're making a difference and we're making money and that hadn't really happened before how did you know when you got that call the day after you left you the company?
Speaker 1:how did you know that you were the right person to to do this?
Speaker 2:Um, I always have this thing I'm going to tell you what I would normally tell people and say I didn't know. Um, and I always say that before I win a race, I'm like I didn't know I was going to win, but deep down, I have a belief that if someone gives me an opportunity, I'm going to take it. I mean, if you look at my Instagram bio, I need to remember what I wrote, but I actually read it in a book. My Instagram bio says a very serious possibilist, which basically means that, like, I get really excited by the like idea of possibility and I take it seriously and I'm like, if there is a possibility of me being able to do this, well, I'm going to give it a go.
Speaker 1:How much of your, I guess, look your experiences as a child and you know, and when you were as a mental health, a mental health advocate, as a, as a youngster, how much of that have you brought with you into this, into your company?
Speaker 2:A lot. I think people should build for the problems they've experienced. Number one I think that's very important and I think empathy as well. You know I am not sorry I always refer to books when I say things, but there is an amazing he's probably like the biggest like advertising guru in the world called Rory Sutherland and I he probably doesn't know right into um and he read this amazing book called alchemy um on like selling things, um, and he kind of describes the idea of a house, right, and you know, a house is one of the most personal, high touch purchases you're going to make. You're going to live in that. You're going to make. You're going to live in that, you're going to raise your kids. You're never going to buy a house.
Speaker 2:If someone emails you about a house, you're going to go want to see it. You're going to want to talk to the estate agent, you're going to want to talk to the owners and I feel like what we're doing is very similar. Right, it has to be super high touch, super personalized. You're helping a parent deal with their kids, health and their life outcomes and you cannot do that without empathy and I think having the experience I have in the past has allowed me to empathize and almost put that on a similar level to my actual job, which is my job is to return money, to make returns for investors.
Speaker 2:Right, like that is fundamentally a founder's job. Is you raise venture funding? Let's get rid of the fun test in return? Um, right, and that might have made us slightly less successful. Um, you know, sometimes we say no to people because we're like we actually can't deal with your child and I don't want to lie to you, um, but I think leading with empathy is what has been told you should not traditionally do in, you know, growth stage startups, but that that is the way I've chosen to do my job you know that's fascinating.
Speaker 1:I do have another question to ask you, but talking about this, leading with empathy. Empathy is one of my, my personal, my core values, but also then the values that I bring into second wind as well as a as an organization, and I guess the bit I've always struggled with is I've you know, initially I was like, oh, I'm a startup, I'm going to build second wind, I'm going to do xyz, and in the end I pulled that back and you tapped on it there because of empathy, and I couldn't figure out certainly not quickly enough how, by continuing to be empathetic, I could also get the right types of return. To call myself a startup, be a business, absolutely right, but startup and that exponential growth I was just like I don't know if I can do that. There's probably others thinking so how do you get your head around being this empathetic leader yet still being able to drive the right type of return?
Speaker 2:One. I think people have got it wrong. I'm always going to say that, like I don't think there is a right way to build a business. Um, you know, I look at my mum, um, who is running a larger business than I am. Um, she never raised lunch funding. She didn't need to right. She has never taken a cent of funding. She didn't need to right, she has never taken a cent. She took probably like a one agent investment at the beginning and she does not need to do crazy growth that accidentally has.
Speaker 2:You know, she manages her own time and success works differently to different people and like one, you know, one thing I hope I've done is that every person who has worked here, even if they've been fired, has said like this was a safe space to work. I learned something. Well, they helped me get my next job Because ultimately that will be the reason someone else comes and joins. And when we look at like the biggest causes for failures in startup, it's running out of money, is one the team not really gelling one person leaving um right, like if you keep going, eventually you'll find product market fit if you're malleable enough. Um, but for me it's kind of like you know I need to. So you know, with my investors, I want to build those relationships and I want to invest in those relationships with my team. I want to, like, invest in those as well. Do I know everything that's going on in Gen AI? No, because fundamentally I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1:No one. I don't know if anyone truly knows, but we'll all follow it as much as we can. You mentioned one thing there about something like solving the problems that you've got the experience in, or solve the problems that you've got that lived experience.
Speaker 1:Talk to me a bit about that belief with what I'm doing now or just in general yeah, well, yeah, linked into what you're doing now, because I know there's there's a lot of athletes who I work with, actually a lot of executives who I, who I help at this this shift in their career part as well, and they always come with this view on well, I don't know what to do, I don't know how I can become this entrepreneur and start moving into something else, and so that's just that little nugget. So I'm just interested in your perspective on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's multiple things. I think one athletes kind of have to understand they've already in a really good position to start a company just by what they've done Right, and that doesn't like the person that you are having to go through the trials and tribulations of being an athlete already feel really fucking well. Um, not all athletes need to build sports companies. I think it's really important. I think we learn a lot. We learn a lot of lessons throughout our lives that don't completely align with our identity. You know, like it might have been that I wanted to go build a cancer therapeutics company because my mum had cancer. Um, we have a lot more experience that we are aware of that doesn't involve, like, the things that we do and are more related to the person that we are. Um, am I the right person to go to cancer therapeutic company? Absolutely not, but would I give it a go? Yes, um, and I think like, kind of, where I kind of go is like just keep.
Speaker 2:Like, when you're older, what are the kind of problems that you kind of really want to check what? What are the changes you want to see in the world? And, like, what are the biggest problems you notice every day, um, and you know, I saw so many weird ones throughout the like throughout my time. Like I have a list of like. Here are all the random things I would like to build. Actually, the first one ever ended up being what? The guys that run a bill. Right, I wish I had done that. I wish I'd built a running app, but I didn't. Um, but life is really long and you have a lot of opportunity. Like, I think, just like, make as many mistakes as possible is like the biggest advice I have to anyone wanting to give it a go yeah and okay and I think, with that, making that advice, making mistakes, but going on.
Speaker 1:But even as you said, there, it's not just what you've done but it's, um, who you want to be and certainly for those who are athletes, listening, they've already got the traits, they've, they've done the hard work and the experiences that they've had, as you've described even for yourself, already makes this great, I don't know container of ideas to come and sort of play with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the other big one would be like lose your fucking ego. I think that's like the biggest lesson I've learned to not have is like I wouldn't say I'm an narcissist. That's wrong. But I do have a high degree of self-exceptionism, um, and I own that because that's the reason I'm good at everything I do. Um, but your ego is going to be driven to the floor. Um, you know you're not going to be winning medals. There's going to be no one telling you you're doing well, like. You're not going to have the experience you had as an athlete when you were really good. You're going to have the experience of being an athlete that was shit and then getting good and they're saying like how do I have this weird rebirth?
Speaker 1:well and so on. That, and so I was. I'm going to ask for you. Then. You kind of have this balance, perhaps because not only are you a founder and you know running business, but then you're also a semi-professional athlete now, which means you get that little burst of ego that comes through. So talk to me, what is a semi-professional in this instance and what are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so funny how everyone thought I was done wrong. I am never done. A couple of years ago I think it was last year I was still running and a group of my American friends and I already did college athletics in various things, so someone across them or whatever. We were like we should start a running group and call it the Retired Athletes Group and it was basically like a group that went for runs and then went drinking and I started to fall in love with running again, like I really did. Um, I was like, fuck me, I love getting better. I'm seeing the marginal gains again, and I felt like a part of my identity was just so honored again, like my inner child was so happy. Um, and then I messaged my coach, my old coach that I trained with when I was a kid, and I was like I think I want to start training again, um, and he was like, are you a kid? And I was like I think I want to start training again and he was like are you sure about this? And I was like, yeah, I think, I think. I think it's time. So I ended up getting back in the gym with him. He was a strength and conditioning coach in the GB Olympic team and we were getting there, it was fun.
Speaker 2:And then last year in May or April I paced the Paris marathon for a friend fun. And then last year in May or April I paced the Paris marathon for a friend, um, and what I didn't realize was I had partially torn my Achilles. Um, I had bone fluid in my fluid, in my bone marrow like I had. Whatever I'd done, I completely fucked up my foot. Um, there's an amazing sports doctor called Noel Pollock who was like you're not running for six months and I was like, well, that was my dream. Gone pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:I go back into the gym and I'm like cool, I can lift which I could. And there is this kind of like very unfit looking beauty in the gym at the time and I could overhear him talking about this thing called high rocks, um, and my coach just says to me he was like listening and he was like I feel like you'd be quite good at that. And then this guy goes no, no, no, she's not built for it, she's definitely not strong. She kind of just looks like an endurance runner. And my fuck, if a short, unfit man tells me I'm not going to be good at something. There is nothing more like triggering than wanting to be good at it. Um, and I was like you know what? Fuck this prick, I'm gonna go and learn how to do a high box.
Speaker 2:So I looked at my coach and I was like I know I shouldn't run, but it is a high box in a month. Am I just allowed to run all day? Like I won't do any running, I'll train on the ergs, but is it possible that I could like learn? You know, can I just give it a go? And he was like sure, you know, can I just give it a go? And he was like sure, when's the next one? And I was like Gdansk in Poland. And he was like okay, um, so I ended up going to Gdansk.
Speaker 2:No idea what high rock was, did it? Won it? Um, then the week later went to world champs, uh, and came like it wasn't great. It was like 15th in the world on this random sport. Um, and I was like I think I want to take this more seriously. Um, and over the last year suddenly like reverted into like full-blown athlete mode again. Um, I ended up breaking a world record in February. Um, doing some really cool work with Nike. Um, you know, I have an amazing agents. Uh, you know, my agents are back and they're amazing, um, and my identity feels very like full from it. You know, I do have a new coach now called George, who works in Hierarchs. Um, and yeah, it's like it's a tough one. I guess I love the fact I say semi-professional because I still have a job right, like that's kind of the reason I say it, but like ultimately, this could be my job. Um, you know, I'm one of the best in the world.
Speaker 1:I love it, um but how are you finding that balance? How are you finding the balance? Now I'm struggling now.
Speaker 2:Um, like you'll probably see some changes in my life pretty soon. I don't know which way it's gonna go. Um, in the sense, like I'm on my off season at the moment and I was just like shit. I didn't realize I had actually missed out on quite a lot over the last year. You know, like I went to a friend's wedding, I drank and I was like, well, I don't feel guilt about this, this is kind of nice.
Speaker 2:And I think I'm someone who is so extreme that I either go like full blown, like I'm not going to drink, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do like I'm very like that. Um and same with work. But actually, you know, I travel to the Middle East a lot for work and I'd be getting off a plane and then racing in Chicago and doing this and doing that. And sustainability is something we don't really think about that much when, when it comes to work, life balance and and you know, my journey is going to look very different to other people's and I think for me it's now figuring out you know, maybe I can't work 80 hours a week and train 20 hours a week like what will the next step.
Speaker 1:Look like for me definitely watch this space, and so look, sophia. Um, last question, really for me. I certainly appreciate your time. You look at athletes coming through behind you who are look, I guess, on the non-one are thinking about this entrepreneurial path they're trying to figure out. Can I make this work in this balance? Um, based on your experience, what advice or guidance would you give to them?
Speaker 2:what would? You are asking the wrong person, um. One, I'm still figuring it out. Two, I think everyone else will figure it out. You kind of only figure it out when you've got it wrong that's like a really weird way of saying it but you don't realize you've got it wrong until you have.
Speaker 2:I think the one thing I will say about balance is having multiple identities is a blessing and a curse, right, because you're having to deal with all these identities, but also, if you lose one, you have one to fall back on. You know, when I get injured. There is something else. You know, if I can't fundraise, I can always go for a run, but ultimately and it's like, what kind of how much do you want to honor each of them and like which ones do you want to give more weight to?
Speaker 2:And over the last, you know I have given up a lot on the, you know, romantic side because I've been so busy. So at the moment I'm like maybe it is time for me to reinvest in, you know, sophia, who eventually, down the line, wants to be a mum. Or Sophia, who actually needs to feel secure in a relationship or be supported, because currently I feel very self-supported. Um, and that is so okay, just because I can you know, I can, you know, speak on panels and you know speaking panels all around the world, or you know I can get a gold medal in all these events doesn't mean I don't want to honor the other parts.
Speaker 1:Sophia, thanks for being honest, really truly appreciate you just sharing your perspective and your story, and it's going to help so many people. And thanks, thanks again.
Speaker 2:Of course. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sophia. Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy Until next time.
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