Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

170: Jamie Soward - From NRL Premierships to Ego and Finding Purpose in Government (and $6,000 toilets)

• Ryan Gonsalves • Episode 170

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Jamie Soward opens up about chasing the footy dream without a clear pathway, losing it all twice, and what it really took to reinvent himself. From writing résumés at 16 to training while on the dole, to playing in front of 60,000 fans and then selling toilets, Jamie's journey is as humbling as it is honest.

He’s played State of Origin, won a grand final, coached at the top level — and then had it all fall apart. But what came next? A traineeship. In water regulation. At 40.

If you've ever found yourself starting again or afraid to, this conversation will speak to you.


What You’ll Hear:

  • Why Jamie sent a résumé with his highlight tape and why it worked
  • How working full-time while chasing a dream taught him discipline
  • Why being dropped to part-time felt scarier than losing games
  • What it felt like to sell toilets after a career in the spotlight
  • Why a rookie mindset helped him succeed in a completely new field
  • How he’s using his story to create job pathways for Indigenous athletes
  • Why being judged only on Sunday is dangerous and what it means to win during the week

💎 GOLDEN NUGGET:

 “In sport, you’re judged on Sunday. But in life, you can win on Monday. On Wednesday. On Friday. You just have to be willing to start over and redefine what a win looks like.” 


This episode isn’t just about one man’s career. It’s about how we find clarity in chaos, humility after status, and build a legacy through service, not spotlight.

If you’re navigating a transition, whether from sport, from identity, or from what you thought your life was going to be, let Jamie’s story remind you that starting again might be the beginning you never expected but always needed.


Need Career Clarity or Transition Support? 

If you are navigating what is next in sport or beyond, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

SPEAKER_03:

I left school year ten, went straight into working in a sports store, like a rebel store in the management section. Started managing the shoe section, so I love shoes. Mum didn't want me to go back to school and do sport for two years, so I left year ten and then went into work and try and chase that footy dream and was lucky enough to sort of get a tape sent off to the Raiders. We sent a tape and a resume, and it's to Maddie Elliott who's written a successful coaching book recently. He's to this day I'm the only player that sent a resume with my tape. So I sent what I was good at, what I wasn't good at, and the tape sort of showed some of that stuff that I could work on. And still having to work and chase a dream. Like now we see kids chase a dream and they're like, oh, I don't want to work.

SPEAKER_02:

Hi, I'm Ryan Gonzalvers and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people afterwards. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Jamie, mate, thanks for joining me today. Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure. Looking forward to just having a chat a bit about your career, but also I guess that transition to life after the game.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. It's I've had a couple of transitions now, once out of as a player, but also as a coach as well. I've had to transition out. So looking forward to hopefully sharing some of my stories and hopefully people can relate.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure, they're definitely going to relate. And there's going to be a lot to take away also. And that's probably one of the bits that I really like to focus on is just trying to understand some of those lessons. And like you say, you've had, you know, we talk about finding second wind, you probably went to your third or fourth in many respects. But but before we do sort of kick into that, let's just get an understanding of sort of where it started for you. What where were you growing up and what was sports for you as a kid?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I grew up in Canberra. I was born in Canberra, raised in Wagga, always loved Rugby League from the age of four, and then played basketball, touch, and then always wanted to be an NRL player. So that dream or journey probably kick-started. Mum and dad split uh when I was about eight or nine. Went to Wagga and uh mum met my stepdad, Huey, who's been a big influence on my life, pushing me into those competitive side of life. But I always wanted to be a regular league player. So I think along that journey, it was sort of back then when I was playing, it was like you had to know someone who knew someone who knew someone to get a trial. So I didn't really have an education or anything behind me. I left school year ten, went straight into working in a sports store, like a rebel store in the management section, started managing the shoe section, so I love shoes. Mum didn't want me to go back to school and do sport for two years, so I left year 10 and then went into work and try and chase that footy dream and was lucky enough to sort of get a tape sent off to the Raiders, get a trial. Um, but there was like you wanted to play on a real, but there was never really like a pathway like there is now, like it was sort of really hard in that in that way.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what it it seems like. It's as if you you really had to truly chase it, like you had to leave leaving school and thinking, right, you almost have to go full-time mindset-wise in order to make it back then.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, we sent a tape and a resume, and it's Samadi Elliott who's written a successful coaching book recently. He's to this day, I'm the only player that sent a resume with my tape, so I sent what I was good at, what I wasn't good at, and the tape sort of showed some of that stuff that I could work on. And still having to work and chase a dream, like now we see kids chase a dream and they're like, Oh, I don't want to work, I'm chasing a dream. Whereas mum made me pay rent when I left school, so I had to pay rent, had to buy my food, uh, and I was 16. That taught me skills later on in life that I've been able to use to navigate my way through to now. But the dream was always in the back, like the now was more important. So, whilst I was wanted to play NRL, I was chasing that dream, but I had to work, and then finally got an opportunity to play in Canberra, moved back there, then that was sort of over within a year. Got the chance to come to Sydney, actually start on the dole in Sydney because I wasn't getting paid enough from the roosters, so I moved up on a 10 grand training trial sort of thing under Shane Flanagan, and I was on the dole back when you had to look for five jobs and ring up and stuff like that, and then doing that and training, so working out ways to budget. Yeah, luckily I'm off. I had mum and uh my stepdad, I was living with him, and then I went worked at Foot Locker, so I was working at Foot Locker full-time in a management role and then training over night time.

SPEAKER_02:

Well just thinking about the stuff at work, say working in the shops and stuff, how did you actually get those jobs?

SPEAKER_03:

Just applied, went out and applied, had a passion always for sport, needed something that was flexible, but uh communication, selling things like I've I'd had that background as soon as I left school. I was working part-time, then worked full-time, and then going in and working in Foot Locker, it's a customer service is a tough industry because you can never be sad or angry, otherwise the customer can feel that. That taught me a lot of patience, but also learning to talk to a lot of different people about their needs, wants, budgets, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. No, you're right, certainly about the retail. I did it for I did it for about a month where I was in a sim similar situation. I was in France and I was looking for a job and I I worked in retail. I say I worked for the month mainly because I got by mutual consent, we left after a month. So uh So uh I I kinda I kinda get that vibe. But I mean coming back to you and that that playing career, so there's a bit of bouncing around a bit at that start, really trying to cement that place. I mean, as you're going through that, what was sort of some of the tough bits about that sort of those moves in those early stages in your career?

SPEAKER_03:

One, when I played Jersey Fleet in Canberra, I was doing like a game development officer for touch. So you're trying to find ways to subsidise your dream and chasing that. What but the focus where I think it's shifted now, where a lot of young players their focus is so much on footy, but it wasn't my main focus. I think that's I'll talk about it soon, but that's what I'm trying to do now is realise that for young people is that great to have a dream, chase it. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got the a a foot in the door right now, but you've got to set yourself up now for other things. I was kind of lucky in that sense at that time, but I was doing game development stuff, I was working, I even applied at the AIS to clean toilets if I needed a job to help pay for petrol rent, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

So Yeah, that's right. You know, you talk about the shift that we see nowadays with I'll say young younger players coming through, younger athletes in general, where they're so fixated on that now and on that that playing career that they really don't think about, I guess, subsidising just mentally, not just trying to say, well financially it's tough, so actually if I get a job, but what you did interestingly is you seem to get jobs at least in areas where it was interesting, or that's where you started. So say you like footwear or trainers, so you you manage to sort of navigate jobs there and give yourself this style once. Yeah. To what extent do you think it detracted from you as a as a player during that time? Or do you think it actually helped?

SPEAKER_03:

I think it helps. I don't think Yeah, being able to leave training. I mean, part-time training right now starts at about five, and everyone in professional environments allows people to work, and there's a little bit of leeway there of what time you get there and how you prep. When you go into the full-time space, that's a privilege, it's not yeah, but it's something that you've earned to get there. I think working showed me ways to be able to time management, yeah, being able to get out on time, food prep, yeah, not just eating just before I went to train, I had to eat at the right times, all that kind of stuff. And it made me appreciate when I did get to full-time, okay, that lifestyle's great, but I've had to work to get there. Yeah. And then now that I'm finished, yeah, and out of that, I think it's helped me get into spaces within a different industry that would never have dreamt of.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and we'll we'll come back into that because you know it does sound like it planted seeds to help you af after that full-time career. So when you became a full-time player, what one where was it? What was that experience like? And what did it then feel like having to give up work?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was so in tw in 2004 we had a season where we're undefeated, and then I got a first grade contract, which was 35,000 to train with first grade, just in 2005, and I didn't know what to do with myself. Like I had didn't want to study, but you'd train and you had the rest of the day off, so you were like, great, what do I do? You know what I mean? So it was an adjustment period. I think early on in those early days, I probably didn't utilise enough of some of the stuff that you guys do now and upskilling myself. Like I wanted to be in the media, but everyone wanted to be in the media back then, you know what I mean? Or they wanted to coach, like that's usually the basis of what you see a lot of rugby league players do. So going into that, stepping into that probably unsettled me a little bit, but that's when the dream became real, like I was closer because I was full-time, and then I what I found was my football wasn't as consistent as what it was when I was working, right? Because I had more time to indulge in other things, yeah, pick up bad habits, you know. I don't train till six o'clock tomorrow because we go to night game, I'll stay up late, you know, it's stuff like that. So you start to jeopardize some of that stuff, and I was always really good with that. And then I was sort of because you're only on 35,000, the demands of full-time training had to be subsidized somewhere else with work. So yeah, I was still trying to do little bits here and there to be able to do that, and then lucky enough, I was pushed on to full-time. You know, to do that in 2007, I was on enough, but I got dropped back to part-time, so I was only training three days a week on a full-time salary, which was people go, Great, you didn't have to do training, you're like, No, because my dream's now slipping away from me, and I've played 15-20 games, yeah. So all of a sudden life got real again really quickly. Yeah. And then I moved to the Dragons and the rest sort of took off.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and what sort of doubts, what types of doubts came into your head? You say the dream slipping away. Do you remember as you look back, or what would that have meant? What did that mean you have to give up or go back to?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I've just gone through it recently. So I um lost my job last year at the Dragons as as a coach, and similar to when you retire, like I haven't got a huge network of study behind me or things that I was interested in, I guess. Everyone thinks that footballers got lots of money. Yeah, I've been through divorce and all that kind of stuff and made some bad choices along the way. So for me, last year when I got let go, I I I went into a panic because I was like, what am I gonna do? Yeah, and then when you sit down and you break down, okay, you look through your phone, who do I know? What could I actually do? And I was lucky enough I reached out to Jace and probably embarrassing him because he's in the room, but yeah, he offered a trainee shit through that, and I didn't have that as a player, so when you get there to full time, you think I've made it. Yeah, that's not the hardest part. Hardest part staying there, yeah. So when I got back to full time uh part-time in at the Roosters, there was a part of me that was like, oh shit, like this is finished, so I I could be out here. So do you kick stones or do you push on? Yeah, pushed, yeah, pushed on, ended up getting to the dragons, had a successful career, I would think, but then when you retire, like what do you do? And I went through that last year, so that the dream was getting away, like, okay, I could be out of here, but I was able to find a way to stick on. I think that's been that's what's helped me when I've retired versus and when I've lost my job coaching last year was okay, yep, it's not going away at the moment. What's the dream? Well, I don't have a dream at the moment, but I have a requirement to look after my family, to look after my daughters, to show them that okay, if we lose our job or something doesn't happen to be able to go there. And I was lucky enough to meet Jace by chance, and I'm probably skipping ahead in the story, but I went to his meeting with a player that I was coaching because she didn't feel comfortable going by herself, and I thought, I'll I'll go, it's an Aboriginal, you know, identified sort of role and I'll see what it's all about. And yeah, me and Jace struck it off really, really well, and we sat there and we probably could have just had the meeting by ourselves, and then I just said to him, Oh, well, if I get sacked, I might need a job, you know, because the CEO of the club was sitting there, and yeah, I was at that time I was talking long-term negotiation for staying for an extension. The season happens, whatever else. Fast forward 12 months, yeah. I'm embarrassed, ego, like, holy shit, how do I what am I gonna do? Yeah, do I want to keep coaching? So you're ringing around trying to get jobs coaching. Is that the path for me? Do I really love it? Do I want to keep sacrificing time away from my family? Jace picks up the phone. Hey mate, why don't you come and take his traineeship on? And people go, Well, it's a traineeship, you're 40, and you're like, Yeah, okay. That's the hard that was the hardest part for me. It wasn't the fact that I didn't know anything about water or government or anything like that, it was the fact that I'd have to go into circles where I was seen as being successful and tell people that I was being a trainee again. Yeah. Best decision I ever made because it humbled me.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm interested then. We'll we'll come back to that playing career, but I'm interested about this traineeship, and so you call it a traineeship, and like you said, it sounds like uh typically we'd have a bit of a stigma of doing a traineeship, probably after the age of I'd say 21. You're thinking, what are you doing a traineeship for? Surely you should be doing something else. So what flipped in you know, you you say you you hit this word traineeship and thought, uh it's is this embarrassing, what should I be doing? How'd you get past that?

SPEAKER_03:

Two things, you look at the salary and you work out, okay, is that gonna be enough to feed my family to provide for that? And then the other part is for me, I r I related traineeship with rookie as a footy player.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

No respect as a rookie, you've got to earn everything you get. And once I got past the fact that I was telling people that I was in government and I was took up a traineeship, most people don't really care. They don't it's their job, you know what I mean? So, and then when I went into the final details about what I was doing and created pathways for Aboriginal players in sport, in rugby league to get them into the government, build off what my boss was helping me with. I found an avenue that actually suited me. So when you're a rookie as a footy player, it's like shut up, talk to when spoken to, yeah, do as you're told. We don't need you, or we do need you. As a trainee, I quickly worked out that my experiences away from water and in team environment were quickly going to transition into this space, but not actually in the branch that I was hired as. So I spoke about weaving a path into engagement, education, communicating. That's my strengths. And being able to do that as a trainer, I don't even say I'm a trainee anymore, I just say I work for the government. Yeah. And I've been able to open doors along the way really, really quickly because of that attitude. I'm me, yeah, and I'm learning along the way, and a lot of people don't want to listen, they want to talk, so I've just decided to listen a little bit, and that's what you do when you're a rookie, right? Yeah. So some of that stuff translates into the professional world. Yes. But I've been able to use that to open doors, and Jace has opened the other doors for me. But we've actually worked out a really good relationship, partnership of understanding. Okay, well, and Wayne Bennett was the same when I was playing. Like, don't focus on what you're not good at, focus on what you're really good at, be strong at that, and then the other stuff will around the edges will work with that. So that's what Jace has done. He's allowed me to go into communities, talk to people, host water panels. I hosted an indigenous water panel last week, which was probably the highlight of my water career so far. But meeting people and they don't look at you like a rookie because they love, they're passionate about it. So you're listening and going on that journey. But the one thing that helped me was when I retired, I actually went and sold toilets. Although there were other questions I have to now delve into that one. And how did selling toilets help you? Retired, sat on the couch. You when you retire, you get your little bonus for playing. Sat on the couch for a couple of months. My now wife came home and said, I think you need to get a job. I was waiting for media to come around. It wasn't footy season. She got me a job at Harvey Norman in the she knew a person out at Penrith in the bathroom section. Yes. Walked in there. Again, had to get past that ego of I was playing in front of last year playing in front of like 60,000. Yeah. Yeah. This year I'm selling toilets. Yeah. And knew nothing about toilets, much like I could water, but I approached it as this is my opportunity to test myself mentally, but to do something different. And went in and sold toilets for a year, sold plumbing, tiles. Could not tell you the difference between an S Bend and whatever else goes into the toilet. But and people would come in and say, Yeah, hey, you're not training today. I go, hey, this is it. Like, I'm not going to train it after selling toilets. So my claim to fame is I sold a$6,000 toilet once, uh per day, Japanese brand per day. And I actually came out with a sense of pride and I was like, okay, I can do this. And then once I did that, other doors started opening media-wise, and then I went into the coaching realm. But this is how the water journey's taking me on. I know my journey on water is like very minimal. A lot of the stuff that I do communication-wise actually opens up those doors for people to get me into that space.

SPEAKER_02:

And do you know what's what's wonderful about that is I'm hearing this attitude, this action-oriented attitude towards moving forward. It's like, well, here I am, I've got to go and do something. And sometimes you needed a nudge, and be your your missus today tells you, you know, you need that nudge. But also the feels where you went, even as a young lad at 16, you were in front of people, you were already talking. It sort of forced you to communicate to be a communicator, to be someone who in instructs others as well. And I hear that that theme coming through. But also you quite simply even though you talk about ego and things might have gotten the way and as as you're reaching the top of set of the playing careers and managerial careers, there's a lot of humility. You actually prepared to start in the bottom. And you did that be it at Footlock or you know, selling shoes, you did that as a rookie player, you'd have done it as a a young coach, and doing it be it in toilets, but then also in the government as well. You're prepared to muck in and just start from scratch.

SPEAKER_03:

When we were growing up, we were told to work for things. Yeah, we even had lay-by-like people said they don't know what lay-by puts positive, you pay it off and you get it and you work for it, you valued it. So the journey for me as a player, when you reach the peak, and everyone reaches a peak in life, that's not all the same peak, but your ego is like I didn't even know what ego was when I was playing. I just played, I was arrogant, I was winning, whatever. You get to Penrith. And Anthony Griffin actually tried to educate me on ego, and I was like, mate, I'm not hearing it. You know what I mean? Then when you retire, you get older, you get in different circles, you understand that a little bit. I knew that if I took the job in water, I didn't have to be passionate about it, but I had to have humility in learning and learning off what my boss was telling me, but also understanding what my strengths were were going to be in that. So I don't think there's anything wrong with humility. It's what you the old saying, what you get out of it is what you put in. So, you know, do I could I sit down and talk water with them? Probably not, but I could ask enough questions to be in that conversation, yeah, and that's what I've been able to do. So part of what we're doing now is trying to educate people because when we were younger and you've been in a professional environment, you're not thinking about when you retire. No. And that's your challenge, is like, yeah, and people would say every player's got a personal training certificate or a teacher's aid or anything like that. It's like, okay, part of my job now is part of my job now is educating people for a professional life after football, yeah, that you can do now and all that stuff that comes with it.

SPEAKER_02:

So as a player, just touching in on that, to what extent did you think about life after the game?

SPEAKER_03:

Didn't matter. All that mattered was if he won on Sunday. And the difference now is that a lot of players love the lifestyle, they don't love the game. So the lifestyle for them is branching out social media, like their income streams are wider now. Yeah. I love the game. I still love the game. So through that, I think that's probably why I've been able to open doors is I've made those connections. It wasn't just all what could you do for me? It was connections. Yeah. And now you call back those favors when they come in full circle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

When you look back at your career, what's the one or two sort of standout moments for you as you think about your career?

SPEAKER_03:

There's two parts. Like professionally winning the grand final, playing state of origin. Yeah. But if you look back to the other side now and a career defining, like guys were studying while we were still playing first grade. I wasn't. Like I would love to have gone back, yeah, finishing your HSC. Like, you know, how do I say to my daughter, I want you to go to U12? Well, you didn't, like stuff like that. But I think understanding more the how hard that transition is because it's not just a loss of income and a loss, it's a loss of longing, yeah, a sense of embarrassment. Yeah, I felt embarrassed last year when I lost my job as a coach. Why did you feel embarrassed about losing your job? Well, you felt like you failed. Yeah, you felt like I'd given all this time, time away from family, time into players, all this kind of stuff. We didn't win. And I've lived life like that from 16 to 39 or 40 now. Yeah. Judged on Sundays. Yeah. And again, I'm not embarrassing him because he's in the room, but what Jace is teaching me is like you can get wins on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Guess what? Yeah. Saturday, Sunday, you can have off. You know, like it's as simple as we've just moved up the coast. And I text him, I've only been up there a week, but I texted him last Monday. It's the first Monday, a first afternoon I've been able to pick both of my kids up. We played handball in the driveway. Okay. It's light enough, early enough, work wasn't rugby sporting environments, such a selfish environment. I mean, even in your job, it's like I've got to be there, I've got to be there. And kids don't understand that when they're young. But that whole flippant of not just waiting to win on Sunday and you can win other days. I think that's what I'm trying to teach young kids now is you can win during the week for in 10-15 years' time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, Rance. Yeah. And so it sounds like there's also the shift in the goal, in the priority. Like you say, from a dream perspective, because we were younger, that focus was on premier being a premiership winner, playing for the blues. And you were able to achieve that and get that sense. I guess with that finishing, as you started shifting towards coaching, was it intentional for you to become a coach? Did you think sort of as your career was like, right, this is it?

SPEAKER_03:

Nah, I was doing media and I got I wanted to do some consultancy stuff for the dragons, and then the female jump came up and I couldn't believe it. I was like, okay, I'm great. Like I love footy. I want to be I don't want to be a coach, but the opportunity came up, I'll jump at it. Yeah. And then when you're in that cycle, it's like that's all that matters. Yeah. And I thought, okay, I'm I'm good at it, which I I think I'm a good coach. I think I'm just young and learning. But I look back now, I'm like, I I would never go back. I would never go back. It changed my whole perspective on Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_02:

Why wouldn't you what are you seeing now that makes you feel actually I wouldn't need to go back to that in that way.

SPEAKER_03:

I started living life for the Sunday instead of for the week, which is what a lot of young players, athletes are doing now. They're living for the now, which is great. Understand the dream is right there.

SPEAKER_02:

But the dream can end tomorrow. Well, that's it. And it's not just it's not just the win. And you know, someone you know that was on the show before that many people have said things uh around if you measure yourself by the scoreboard, that's the problem. And what you actually need to be doing is measuring the the small wins, the process point. So it's falling in love with the process, recognizing, as you said, that actually can you can win every day of the week. Then changing what your priorities are, perhaps what's important to you in many respects. So when you think about your wins that you get in your current role, how different how different are they? What types of things do you start to celebrate now that you didn't perhaps before?

SPEAKER_03:

Traveling around talking to clubs this year, I've celebrated bringing people in for an interview, explaining the opportunities within government, explaining the flexibility within having someone in your role that can help explain how difficult it is. You know, like if you're a female or a male and you're coming into government working through our program that we're trying to get, which we will get successful in the next couple of years, is hey, I've got to go to training early. Great. There's someone that can help facilitate that without saying, what do you mean you've got to go to training for early? You don't start until four o'clock. Yeah, but I've got to get there and get physio and like all that kind of stuff and explaining that, being that spot as while also educating them on there's heaps of people that go to work the next day after playing footy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And that they're the wins for me. Like this year, being being able to bring I put four people in for interviews, and I sort of walked in, and he doesn't know this yet, but like I was proud that I got someone to come to the interview. Yeah, and I tried to hide it sitting in the interview, but I was more nervous than they were. Yeah. The actual people there, because I was like, I don't want this person to take the piss. Yeah, I don't want this person to like be not a dud, but like not interested. Because I've worked hard on building that relationship. Yeah, and aren't they good people like that? So that's my win now, which I never thought that. Like I was judged on if you play well, you play well, and if you win, you win. So having that passion for that, I think's holding me in good stead.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and that's quite a shift. You know, we're saying earlier, as a player, it's somewhat selfish. It's very much okay, it's in a team environment, but it is still about you and your own performance. And what he's describing there is this shift. Typically, perhaps it's a maturity, but it's recognition being proud of supporting others, of putting them in a place for them to succeed, giving them a platform almost.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, it's the traineeship that we're doing now with indigenous First Nations people, it's not about me right now. Yeah, it's about 15, 20 years for this program to have its own pathway to everyone to know that pathway. Yeah, yeah, that that's my win is to get that, and to do that's gonna take a lot of work. But like you said, I'm not judged on the 20 years of what's on the school board. I'm judged on okay, how can we get this better? And when you ring in and talking to people, how can we do this? And then you go into another environment where you're talking indigenous water access to communities, and people are looking at you like, you're just a footy player, and you go, I was a footy player. That opens the door, that's the conversation starter, and then showing them what I've learned in the short amount of time and being able to hold my own in those conversations, that's a win.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, and I guess you were almost practicing for that, even before you were a footy player, you were practicing the talking with individuals, the building that that rapport, and like you say, listening to them in order to help be that sell it a six grand B Day or something on those lines, but it's you were listening to what their challenges were and helping them with the solutions you had.

SPEAKER_03:

A kid comes in with 150 bucks, he needs a$200 pair of boots. Yeah, he's got to close the gap by 50 bucks. Yeah, can't give him a discount, but I need to find a solution for him. Yeah. At 140, he saves ten bucks, you know what I mean? So I've been learning those communication skills my whole life, yeah, and I've put them into practice.

SPEAKER_02:

So talk to me a bit about the traineeship that you know that you're working to build now. And I'm keen to understand the sort of the impact it has on the community, so you know what it's trying to do there, and then also what it's doing for these individuals who you're sort of helping to recruit.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so the initial traineeship was natural resource access regulator. So it was formed in 2018 there was the massive drought in New South Wales, and essentially the short story of it is farmers were pinching water when there was no water to be pinched. So we had to find a way to monitor that, to meter that, and that's where NRA stepped in. They're like the governing body looking after making sure that's not happening anymore. The access to water is for everyone, you know, not just the farmers, not just First Nations, but everyone and having that, yeah. So when you go up to three Wariner fish traps and you see the water and you see all the fish traps and you think that's accessible for everyone, that's what we're trying to do is make sure that when you go in the community, we understand what people are talking about in terms of their access to water, clean water, their access to fish, yeah, and what it means to Aboriginal people, because a lot of people in the bush, that's what they do to survive, that's what they need to survive. So taking on the traineeship, again, the branches off that. So when I came in, it was a pilot program. Yeah, a lot about non-urban metering, making sure that the accounts are up to date, all that kind of stuff, which we've spoken about off-air. But for me, weaving my way into the education and engagement part and listening to when, what time of year do community need water? Yeah, what time of year is the best time for free? So when you go out and talk to elders, not just one side of the elders, but elders from everywhere, you listen to those stories, you get an understanding of the black data out there, yeah, which can help bring back to NRA and get us better data to help prepare for when there's drought, prepare for when there's going to be difficult times ahead. So that whole traineeship's, I guess, taking shape to maybe it was one avenue with branches off it. I reckon it's taken shape over the next sort of two years to like cover everything. There's investigations, there's different stuff, you know. The science part, if you want to study water and all that kind of stuff, and you know how we make it clean and how we recycle it and all that kind of stuff. Like that's all those doors have now opened up. Yeah, all because I took a chance just to get myself in that traineeship.

SPEAKER_02:

It's quite amazing just watching you come alive as you talk about that. You know, there was a passion that's there for I guess for that impact that you're able to create. And I could understand now why I guess you feel pride on nerves as you try and introduce someone to come and work for you. So when you think about these individuals, like it's say the the interviews that we arrange for them as they try and come into this traineeship. What is it about them that you are looking for that makes you feel actually that they could be a good fit?

SPEAKER_03:

So as a coach, when you're looking for recruiting players, you look for athletic ability, character, skill, all that kind of stuff. I'm very simple. So when I go out and meet someone I look for for manners, time management. Yeah. You see because in the manners, if I teach my kids, if my kids four and six, if they can use their manners, so can people that like if I offer you a coffee and you say please and thank you. Yes. Or thank you to someone that's serving you because they're taking their time out.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

The time management's important because the time management builds trust.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes it does. You're late can't trust you. Can't trust you. So two very simple things will get the conversation started because one thing about myself is as a coach you've got to give yourself you've got to give it yourself to everyone. Yeah. The whole time. Yeah. So if I'm going to give myself to you, you've got to just have those basics around I can teach you the rest. I could teach you to kick a footy I can teach you to get into those conversations to meet people to talk to people hold yourself in a room but if you don't have please and thank you and time management it's really really hard because you don't value that and that means your time's more important than mine. Yeah. And I'm like my rope's short I don't have a long week where I just keep going yeah keep going back and you keep you know me once you burn me it's burnt. That's okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Well you accept it. It's funny you say it's okay. It it's one of those both as a player but also as a coach, as a manager, you set these standards and you sort of expect it and you've brought that with you into this we've just maintained those same sort of standards as you're in you know in government worlds as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah and having those basic ones you're taught from a very young age to say please and thank you. Yeah. And you forget it as you get oh why yeah and I know that the team that I work within now like the trust part of it's a big because a lot of the time you might be working remotely. Like I live in Port Pequarry and my boss lives in Corro. We've got to rely on each other because with being on time and time management that creates branches off that communication honesty all those good stuff that everyone takes for granted. Yeah. So like if I'm working in Port Poquarie and I need to go up to Grafton to do something and I just get up do it and then Chase goes oh hi mate are you in a port today and I don't tell him like he's like why don't you just tell me or what time you meant to be there. You know stuff like that all builds into relationships which I think then opens other doors.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah it certainly does again it's that theme that I hear all the way through as I'm listening to you and I've just showed it's very much about helping people find that clarity that career clarity where often they don't have it and you know what you're able to describe is there's this theme that's gone all the way through there's a competitive edge that wants you to be the best but you're also prepared to put the work in it sounds so there's a work ethic there are standards which are not skill related. You don't need to know how you don't need to know the bathroom area of Harvey Norman. You don't need to know all the trainers you don't need to know the ins and outs of being a player you're really looking at those core character traits of individuals to see what can they be successful.

SPEAKER_03:

Well again it's the winning in a professional environment everything revolves around the 1% of your work which is the game. The game okay the 1% so if you get on the piss go and do whatever you want go to bed late as long as you play good in that 1% people leave you alone. Yeah yeah in the professional environment not like that no no it's easy no not like that so you've got to work out ways and this is the part myself and Jason are working really hard on is you can't turn up Monday and look for a win on Monday. It may happen it may not happen. There's going to be times where you do your work and it's going to seem like there's not a win there but not everything has to be judged on that 1% and winning through the week. There's going to be weeks where you're doing your job and you someone might not you know you might just get a hey mate how was your week that's it. Yeah you've got to be okay with that. Yeah but as athletes we're programmed to hear feedback all the time are you doing the right thing you know what can you do better? Yeah are you winning like all that kind of stuff. So for me the transition has been okay like when I first started we had this big system at program and I said where's the playbook? Yeah and they said what do you mean I said I need a playbook yeah detailed out what exactly you want me to do laughed we said we got there yeah because I said that's how we're gonna need to communicate so that with that was the win for me. Yeah yeah I explained my case yeah had the evidence behind it yeah communicated it we had a playbook yeah so that's a win instead of just getting the shits yeah not playing now there's still times where I'm like bring it in and we're going what's going on like he says mate just relax you know we're doing this we've got this coming you got this next week and I'm like okay but what now he's he's got to remind me it's not it's not the 1% yeah it's the other 99.

SPEAKER_02:

I like that I like it I like the you can't turn up on a Monday and expect to get the wins on Monday. It's not just about the game there's not a defining not necessarily just one defining moment in this more traditional careers but it is about wins along the way. And I like the way you described getting that playbook so you you you step out of the sporting environment and you sit down in this corporate world and you're thinking right well what am I supposed to do? How do we know who's doing what building out that structure that playbook for those I guess those key moments that matter it's it's what we have in sport. We're sitting at a table with a playbook in front of us. So it's trying to build or replicate that in some way to I guess both help you but then also help everyone around you.

SPEAKER_03:

And in the sporting environment everything's done for you. Yeah you know what time you have to be there you know what you have to wear and you know what you have to eat like it's all done for you right now. It's never been easier to be a Rugby League player. That's it. So the hard part is the week there so you know if we've got the playbook and I know I've got a certain amount of cases to do that week okay he's trusting me to do it. He's not going to be like Wayne where you train every day and he's gonna ring me and be like mate what are you doing he's trusting me. Yeah and that's the same in life a little bit is when you do retire you lose that sense of routine and you crave routine. So for me it's like start at 730 finish at 430 and it's like okay yeah waiting and he's like relax he's trying to tell me to relax he's like yeah yeah I said mate like the first week I said I'm gonna get my kids like I'll be online he goes mate go and get the kids the routine the playbook all that stuff yeah has helped me get to here the challenging part is to put all that into a professional environment where okay Monday Tuesday I'm gonna make sure I get my cases done. Wednesday Thursday I'm gonna work on the Aboriginal education part getting profiles and players and stuff like that. And then Friday I'm gonna make sure I put that all together and present him Friday at a time. Yeah and he might say mate can you do three o'clock yeah great oh no I can't pick up the girls all good just call me on the way to get the girls like that flexibility doesn't always happen in the sporting world so meshing that all together and then educating younger people along the way is going to be my win for the next 20 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean it's absolutely brilliant you know what I'm hearing and is knowing what you're doing one of the key steps is in order to make it a success you're bringing in well actually you bring in what demonstrates success in a professional environment in a club environment around people knowing what their role is so getting that playbook communicating understanding what's expected of one another in the professional world it is always punctuality and always to a rhythm as we step out of that then it becomes a different kind of flexibility. You still need to know your rules but it's being upfront with where you are what you're up to being upfront about what works. Someone says can you do this actually can we do earlier can we do a bit later and being okay that's actually okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah and it's actually it takes a lot to get to that point because you sit in rooms you sit in meetings and someone says something you don't agree but it's easier to say nothing in our environment it's a team yeah but you're still your own identity yeah so you can say something one-on-one and it be okay or you can say something in the team environment be okay a lot of the times you sit in video the oldest players talk yeah yeah or the question gets directed at someone and half people aren't listening professional environments all single together as a team whereas team first not like that in the professional environment sometimes the main person the whole time yeah so you've got to be able to listen understand absorb but also educate yourself into that environment to say something that you feel comfortable about or that you feel uncomfortable about because the the one thing we don't want is people slagging us off or anything like that. But if you put your ego aside and you're willing to go after it and listen which is what I've had to do yeah I know nothing about water. Yeah. So for me if I walked in there and went oh water yeah what it comes from your tap all good I've got heaps like I'm gonna look like an idiot yeah but if I go in there and understand okay communities need water at certain times of year to make sure that they've got enough fish to make sure that they're feeding their families yeah to make sure that they're doing women's business make sure they're doing men's business cultural awareness that kind of stuff so what do I do? Well I go into the job and Jason says mate I think this Aboriginal mentorship in TAFE is a course that you should do to learn more about your culture. Great. So as doing my job yeah I go into TAFE as well do that okay learnt that great what else do I need to do to learn about my culture? Well all of a sudden I'm doing my job but I'm not building another branch to my tree. Yeah now I'm doing a search forward TAFE so I'm getting the professional side of it as well that understanding about project management about all that kind of stuff. So for me it's like going back to being a rookie again and learning how to play first grade even though I might know some of the first grade plays but if I act like I know the first grade plays without listening to how this person's going to present it I'm not gonna be successful.

SPEAKER_02:

So when you look at where you are today what do you struggle with most?

SPEAKER_03:

What's the hardest thing for you to keep the top of we asked you using a computer being hands on being out in the field is something that's comfortable to me. Yeah you put your boots on you go out and train could do that every day of the week. Yeah making sure that I've got enough evidence to support my project is probably the hardest stuff right to making sure that when I go in and present two people for clients all that kind of stuff like recently I hosted an Indigenous water panel in the New South Wales Water Conference about how we communicate the First Nations people and what's expected when we do that right I was extremely nervous not the fact that I had to talk in front of people but I didn't want to ask the wrong question. Building that out and having a skeleton of questions and then putting the meat on that is what I was nervous about. Yeah so that's what I struggled with stressed for a couple of days took a breath read it and I was like okay if it was a footy world I know my job I know I'm good at it you know I can do it right yeah yeah so I said the same thing it was like I don't know the ins and outs of water just yet but I understand that my passion my energy all that stuff will get me to those places eventually but right now I can't be looking eventually I've got to look at the right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah but to the point you were saying when you record Wayne Bennett is but you also bring in some of those strengths strengths with that's right right so you you you know you can engage with individuals you know you can speak with people you know you're okay being in front of audiences and you're happy to learn but so you can use those pieces whilst you're bringing in whilst you're getting the skill acquisition as you start to truly understand what that content is.

SPEAKER_03:

Well they love the simplicity of my approach yeah that's why I ended up getting there yeah the bluntness of my questions yeah so me worrying about the skeleton of the questions I ended up taking a different direction to the point where they were like less is more you know what I mean so I was like okay great yeah so I struggle with the computer stuff the accounts all that kind of stuff that's always going to be a work in progress because we didn't grow up on computers and we grew up outside kicking footing that kind of stuff but that that has to be my pre-season that has to be you know when Wayne comes in October and November they don't start playing so I've got to view that as my pre-season and uh help future employees see that that's the hard part that we're gonna have to do. There's gonna be some mundane stuff that we're gonna have to get into our system so that if one week we're doing cases we can do that. If the next week we're out on community educating we can do that and then upskilling ourselves that would be the hardest part but other than that mate like it's honestly been a welcome challenge to the point where I don't think like I'm still coaching part-time Samoa and be involved in country rape league. I don't want to go back to coach and if you had said that to me eight months ago and he knows the same thing I would have I was desperate to just have this until I got another coaching job. Right. And now I'm like don't call me I'll consult, I'll come down and get the gear and a bit of cash but I I don't want to yeah it's honestly been and I feel better in myself in a person family father husband all because I took that challenge on and I think I thank him I'm like where would I be if I didn't take that challenge on in water because I remember that I've still got the text I'm like he's like mate you should take it I'm like water I don't know anything about water and then he's like mate it's good for you know and I'm like what about this and I was stressing and yeah it's been and out of that you you open doors but you get friendships, you get relationships above that that are more than which I think's made the job easier than so when you think about young players coming up through the game just getting in making their first starts and looking at what they see is hopefully a bright future in the game themselves what advice would you give to them about maintaining a sense of career clarity as they retire from the game your identity shouldn't just be focused on shouldn't be relying solely on Europa League because everyone's gonna get forgotten one day. Yeah so what plans much like you put money in the bank you don't put pull it out straight away you put a large sum of money in and you want to get money off it you don't pull it out straight away that's how you'd have to look at your professional career is how what can I put in the bank here now to keep working towards so that footy right now yet it's everything. And we get that yeah we're not stupid for that but it doesn't have to be the only thing you know you can you'd be surprised when you become a father a parent you'd be surprised how much stuff you can get done in a day with all the distractions. Is that right? You know what I mean? So when you're a footy player a netball player a basketball player realize that three or four hours of PlayStation I can get a lot of stuff done I can take two hours here to do this I can do that I can prepare myself to that so as cliche as it sounds of preparing yourself for the future I'll I I look at it as do you understand what the future holds? Do you understand that it could be over tomorrow do you understand that it could be over in ten years in the if in the next 10 years you're gonna play first grade and I said you had two years worth of spare time in that around being a full time and you could study to do something or you could study to be fully quite followed fully qualified in government would you do it and you'd be like yeah yeah oh yeah and then I'll have a job after and it's like yeah that's what I'm trying to do. So understanding that whilst it is everything you can't just be the only thing.

SPEAKER_02:

That's great. Listen I've really enjoyed our chat our conversation getting your perspective on where you've been where you are now and certainly where you're going next or continue to but also I guess where you're going but where you want to bring people with you and you know and I think that's I think that's a wonderful wonderful message and wonderful story. Awesome. Thanks mate thanks for having me absolute pleasure thanks a lot thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast we hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me take it easy until next time

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Ryan Gonsalves

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