Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

177 - Lloyd Ashley: I Fell Through a Ceiling And Landed a Career

• Ryan Gonsalves • Episode 177

Share episode

Send us a text

Lloyd Ashley spent years on the pitch as a professional rugby player. But what came after is just as powerful. In this episode, we sit down with Lloyd to talk about what it really means to transition from sport, how identity shifts when the structure fades, and how building a career in player support gave him purpose off the field.

From playing for the Barbarians to working as a plumber between games, Lloyd’s story is a masterclass in reinvention. He opens up about the fear of regret, the weight of uncertainty, and how small decisions like enrolling in a 12 week counselling course can change everything.

Now leading mental health and wellbeing support for the Welsh Rugby Players Association, Lloyd reflects on the messy, nonlinear path from elite sport to meaningful work and how he's helping others build futures with clarity, honesty, and courage.

What You’ll Hear

  • How Lloyd balanced contracts, education, and part time jobs while still playing
  • Why his plumbing apprenticeship shaped how he sees life after rugby
  • What he learned from falling through a ceiling and earning £20 a day
  • The surprising power of a 12 week counselling course that shifted everything
  • Why taking your kids to school mattered more than another year in pro sport
  • The difference between having options and having a plan
  • How he built a post sport life with intention not panic
  • Why regret can be more painful than failure
  • How lived experience became his biggest asset as a Personal Development Manager
  • What most athletes misunderstand about the real world
  • How he supports athletes emotionally and practically during transitions
  • Why it’s not just about having the answers but asking the right questions

Golden Nugget

“I didn’t want to walk away from sport with regret. So I chose to give everything to every opportunity, every course, every conversation even when I wasn’t sure where it would lead.”


Want to go deeper?

If you are navigating what is next in sport or beyond, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

SPEAKER_01:

I probably always saw through my career. There was there was one three-year contract early on in my career. I was I think I was about 24 to 27. That was rolling in and I was like, I'm good, yeah. I've got like I was rolling into that contract. I was like, this is gonna be a good contract. I was I was playing well, things things were going well, like I'd been injury free for quite a bit going into that contract. I was um yeah, you you feel wanted, you feel like you could add value even if you were gonna choose to go elsewhere, even though I didn't want to go elsewhere, but if I did have to, I felt like I could could offer there and settling anywhere. So that probably took me to about 27, but probably probably from about 27 to when I finished at 31, it was like, oh well, how I like I should get my next contract, but I might not. So like being ready, and it was always I always wanted, I always said I needed to be ready by 30 to like have my plan in place or anything, and still even when I finished at 31, I didn't have it.

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Ryan Goldberg, and welcome to the Second Wing Academy Podcast. A show all about career transition to the length of elite activities each week. I invited to the show today. Please join me to delve into the talk and at the end of athlete to a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty, elite athletes, and still people actively. Let's be inspired by the stories of the leaders. Welcome again. This time we're going to record our chat and let everybody else enjoy it too. Nice. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

It's uh nice to catch up, Brian. It was uh nice to have the opportunity to float some ideas with you um around uh it would have been around two years ago now. So nice to actually uh catch up and maybe share some of the things that have happened since then, what's going on and uh what it what it's like now on the ground as well.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, no, I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely. Well, let's kick off just to catch everyone up to speed. Tell us about yourself, what you're up to nowadays.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so um uh was ex fresh and rugby player, so retired from fashion rugby around three years ago. Uh played my rugby in for Ospreys, managed three games at our local rivals uh at Scarlet when I was uh when I went down there on loan, and then managed to finish off my career by uh playing for the Barbarians, which is like a select team, um, like pretty prestigious team. Um, and then played two years semi-pro in the transition away from away from professional rugby. But in the meantime, I've been working a lot in uh athlete support or athlete care, no, uh, under a lot of different banners in different places. But went to Swansea University, first of all, to work for work there for two years, looking after scholarship athletes across a range of different sports, and obviously a range of different uh academic routes as well within the university, and then being lucky enough over the last uh year to be with the Welsh Rugby Players Association, um look after the personal development of the players within the Ospreys region, which is my own club, which is really nice to be back there doing that, and also lead up all the mental health and well-being for the Welsh Rugby Players Association as well. So, yeah, it's pretty, pretty cool role. Love like I love going to work every day, which is uh everyone told me, make the most of rugby because you're gonna love rugby, but when you finish, you're not gonna do a job that you love going to every day. So I feel like I still haven't started work, which is which is really nice to say a 34.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, and look, you've you've packed a lot in, even since we were chatting, but you've packed a lot in since uh I'll say starting to finish actually playing, a lot of ideas and a lot of thoughts of trying to really have an action-oriented role, a role where you can make decisions on supporting players. And I mean, how are you finding being being a PDM thing? Oh yeah, I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01:

Um you can never, I never know what conversation's gonna come across the desk, or when you go and say, uh, morning, how are you? to somebody never know what potential responses you're gonna get. That's amazing to have that. It keeps you it keeps you fresh, it keeps you on top on top of different things. Um, and it's also a role that I've had to get comfortable with saying, I'm not actually sure about that. Um, let me do some work, let me do some research, let me get into that a little bit more, or let me ask some questions somewhere else and being comfortable from that point of view of yeah, not you always you might be the first person that it comes to, but it might be signposting, they might be getting some other knowledge from other roles. So, yeah, absolutely loving it, and uh yeah, feel very privileged to be in the position I am as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And so just describe for for everyone because it is a role lots of people who I do speak to in and around this podcast, and obviously in in the space we work in, they often wonder what what is that day like for a PDM. And perhaps starting today, what what's happening for you today? Yeah, I often wonder as well what what the day's gonna be like as well.

SPEAKER_01:

So now it's it I think the positive is every day's different, but that's hard, obviously, for people to get their to get their heads around. But generally, you know, going into the day, for me, I always prioritize a list of uh players who I know I need to go and see, whether that's because maybe a course has come in for them and that I need to get them enrolled in it. Maybe it's because I haven't had a catch-up with them for a while, maybe it's because they asked a question last week and I was going back to them with an answer. So generally I have a list of people who I'm gonna see. Then it's going around maybe your planning side of things. Oh, I know I was supposed to chase to get this meeting involved. I know I need to I spoke to a contact in maybe an education setting or an apprenticeship setting last week and I haven't chased those up. Let's speak to them. Then it's speaking to your team manager or Ospreys to say, uh, look, I need some time aside to be able to put this workshop in. Can we have a look at the calendar over the next six weeks to sort of see when that's best fit? And then maybe speaking to uh maybe the general manager of the club and saying, like, what's going on at the moment? Is everything flowing as we're supposed to, as it's supposed to be? And then it's um a little bit of what I like to call ad hoc time as well, where you're having to walk around the training facility, just catching up those corridor conversations, giving people time and giving people the space to maybe plant a seed. Sometimes it's find out some information that you you haven't got. Other times it's just uh having a really blank canvas to a conversation and going, hey, how yeah, like I'm seeing you, I'm seeing you this morning, how you doing? And then you do you sometimes you do need a bit of time aside to be able to have those conversations as well because um they can be really open and honest conversations, and if you don't put time aside for that, kind of think you're too busy to have them, or you you make other people think you're too busy to have them, and actually that's the most important part of your role as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Those connections, just meeting with people in a casual setting when no one's asking for anything, but it's building that relationship is perhaps one of the most important things of the role. So important.

SPEAKER_01:

And what how good do you get time in your day to be able to go and do that? Like, that's something that puts a smile on my face every day. Like you sort of could look around. Look, you know you couldn't do it for free, but you sort of look at your role and go, I would do this for free because I love what I do as well. So uh we all know we couldn't couldn't go without paying our mortgage and our bills, but we we also go if you're lucky enough to love your job and be able to have that mindset about it, um, like it's brilliant and it's so interesting from that personal development point of role. It could be the most basic of personal development where it's even it people engaging in conversation, trying to get players used to going deeper into conversations or um giving thought-provoking parts of conversation to it could be professional development, it could be shadowing in work, it could be somebody looking at a new apprenticeship or new opportunity or looking for a new course. That personal development into professional development's amazing, like how different it is, or sometimes say I know a couple of players do things on a Wednesday, because generally are Wednesdays off, and then on a Thursday it's like oh, how was yesterday? How did it go? And then some of the players are doing something you've got like no knowledge in, and you're like, they start explaining to you, and like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's go back a step. Like, I like I know I set you up on this course maybe two years ago, but I haven't got a clear where you are, and then oh there's just like a couple of players at the moment are doing uh doing their plumbing, and I did my plumbing qualifications around 10-15 years ago, and like going back, so I remember that, and then I'm like laughing and joking when I'm telling them about the time that I fell through a ceiling doing what they're doing at the moment, and you're having those conversations, they're like, Oh, I didn't know you did that, so it's nice to like obviously lean on your experience, but remind the players it's all about them, and they're doing a like a brilliant job in like going to seek those opportunities as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I know you you mentioned uh falling through a ceiling. That's something that I definitely want to come back to. Okay, I had already in my list. I was like, This one I've got to make sure it's public. If it wasn't, it is now. But um, but before we step back to that, I'm actually interested, even in that shift that that you mentioned, actually what that typical day is like, and you're a pro player for a long enough time where you pretty much know what your week, you know what 10 months of the year is gonna look like, and you've got that structure. That's a big shift for you to go from being a player to you know with that that that rigidity of the structure to one where wow every day is kind of different. Do you get a sense that it's very different? Have you had to adjust to that?

SPEAKER_01:

Do you know the positive for me is that I've always had still enough of a schedule by working with athletes players. You've always had enough of a schedule of theirs to follow. It sort of gives you your thing, but then it's also looking at them like when can you have the most impact? When looking at their schedule, when they're gonna have the most time, and then because it's it's interesting, we've got four PDMs as in across one in each club in Wales, and like all of us will do it slightly different because it's what suits in that environment as well. Um, so luckily it hasn't taken that much adjustment because the schedules that I've been linked with have given me enough of a structure to not completely lose it, but it's also given me enough flexibility to be able to at times uh take my daughters to school before I come in, which you don't have that luxury when you play in. The fact of seeing the players getting ready to go on trips, and I'm going, oh, it's nice not to have to pack your bags from that point of view as well. So you get from my personal point of view, it's giving me enough structure to stay in and not fall out to structure. Because I think I genuinely believe structure is quite important for a lot of us, even though we don't like it at times. So we don't, I think some people don't like it's not they don't like it, they don't they fall out of love with what's in that structure rather than the fact that there's a structure then I think there's a difference between those two things. But that my role now gives me plenty of structure to work around, but also gives me enough flexibility to look right. Yeah, I could go in at seven o'clock there, but I'm not gonna be able to see the players for the next three hours. You may as well go do your admin in that time and then actually finish later that afternoon. Because look, look at that time in the afternoon, I can arrange a meeting, I can plan from that point of view where who I'm gonna go and see, how I'm gonna see them, how I'm gonna have those conversations. So yeah, it's probably a luxury in my road. I have a bit of both flexibility and structure.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, the way you make it sound really uh, you know, the sound about the structure is important, but sometimes it's what you're structured around, you know, that is important there as well. And and so if you lose luck for that, then the structure itself goes out the window too. And yeah, that's it's quite an interesting way of thinking about it because I know for many, especially in the later years of the career, you might fall out of love with it all and having to rekindle and find, well, why did I start in the first place?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it's interesting. I speak to a lot of players around like post when they've transitioned out and they say, like, why don't you train anymore? And they're like, Oh, I find it hard to put it in. I say all the time, I thought you used to hate the structure, they used to hate that. You can you can't hate it that much and you can't even structure it to get it back to into your lifestyle now. So yeah, and then they're like, Oh yeah, it was so much easier when it was just in your routine, wouldn't it? And it's just getting it back to where how much of a priority, what can take a what can take a hit, how much are you willing to how much do you realize is having an impact on you negatively to then also how much are you willing to sacrifice in the meantime to get that back in? And it's it's for a lot of things, it's also that goes into prioritizing when you're playing, putting education or learning or development into your structure because your structure's set, you're used to it, and you're like, you think you're busy, you think you can't add, you can't add things, but then actually you look around and you realize ah you start doing it, and you're like, oh, it doesn't add that much, actually, does it? It doesn't change that much, or I really enjoy what I'm doing. So I don't mind adding those four or five extra hours that I've been adding as well.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's go to I guess where your passion began. When you were growing up in sport, was it always rugby, or you know, were there other things, other sports that were important to you?

SPEAKER_01:

I tried other sports, I was crap, baby. I can say that quite openly and honestly, did try other things, but nothing really clicked with me and really took my passion from that point of view. And I'll be honest, from a from a rugby point of view, I probably lacked a lot of skills even in that area, but I was loved it, really enjoyed it, and was willing to work as hard as I possibly could to maximize any uh seed of potential that I did have as well.

SPEAKER_00:

As you were growing up, then at what point did you start to realise hey, there's a bit of talent I can maybe go pro?

SPEAKER_01:

Probably very late on in Venice. I remember going to college and I'd just been dropped from Wales in the 16s. More opportunity to make the only the boys who make Wales in the 16s, they're gonna be the ones who over the next couple of years progress. I had an opportunity to go to a local college, which at the time was one of the best rugby colleges in Wales. So the lecturer said to me when I got there, a brilliant man uh said to me, like, you give me everything you can this year. I promise you'll be with Wales 18s at the end of the year. And I was like, Whoa, like just been dropped from my own under 16s team, and now you're telling me I could get into the under-18s, which is a year up. And I was like, right, it's a year. Let's just give him everything. Like, uh, what is it? Like, I just sacrifice the year, whatever it looks like in Inferness. Probably for that year, I would have been nearly every time one of the first in the gym, one of the last out of the gym, same on the field, asking, could I do anything extra? And yeah, he was right to the end of the year, managed to get a pick for Wales and redeems a year up. And I was like, Oh, it's not that bad, is it? You only have to sacrifice that much, and it probably just got those habits into me. That the fact that I do think luck has to go on your side, but I think the more the harder you work, the more opportunities for those for luck to fall in place happens as well. So I always go back to I was very lucky to meet Gareth Nicholas, my lecturer. That Biden put the hard work in there I promised as well. I was never gonna get the luck. That luck wasn't worthwhile as well. So I think that it balances up on those things as well. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00:

If you think back to that time, what made you believe that he was right?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think I believed that he was right. I think I more thought, I'm gonna regret if I don't do this now. He's offered me this. In a way, was it better to look back at the end of the year and say, meh, I've give you everything and I haven't got anywhere near where I said he was gonna get? Or was it worse? Yeah, so I thought I think that feeling of it's gonna be worse getting there and going, oh maybe he was right. Imagine like just missing out on selection and them saying, Oh, you're not you're not quite fit enough to get in here, and I'm going, could have actually could have got in there if I'd listened to him on the start of the year. So I think the fear of regret was weighed heavy on me, and yeah, and I think when you've committed as well, you're in, you're in. Um my thing I told him all year in those days when you turn up on a Monday morning and you're tired and you go like, You're in the gym now. No, you're supposed to be, you're in the gym now, and you manage to pull yourself through a couple of those missed opportunities, like those opportunities I'd normally probably miss out on. Yeah, and you get there and you go, Oh, okay. Well, if I've got these people who help me at the right stages and I'm willing to commit, like a like I say, I'm gonna commit, surely there's an opportunity of making it. And then I'll be honest, right, I got to under-20s and I went to an under-20s World Cup of Wales. I was like the third my first year of under-20s, I played like two years in the first year. I went to the junior world cup. I done my uh pretty like pretty bad injury in one of the last games, even if it is over now, and so chuffed. For the last couple of years, I put everything in. But I was like, right, have the same commitment to what you've fit in over the last couple of years to your rehab now, and just see if you can get back from it. But I was like, I always thought then from that point of view, it was like an unbelievable lesson for me to go like enjoy what you do, like appreciate what you do, because some things are out of your control. That like doing your ACL at that point was completely out of my control. It felt well, a bit of poor tackle technique as well, but it was like sort of out of your control in terms of go through a world cup, go all the way to your last game, just do it on the way home. And I was like, right, let's live the best we can to this, is in terms of if you're committed, you're all in, you're giving it everything. And then at least if something ends or something doesn't go your way, at least you don't have to live there with the regret of I wish I did this, I could have put a little bit more in, because that's not a regret I want to live with.

SPEAKER_00:

No, and it's interesting, but you know, there is a book I often, although as I'm saying it, I've forgotten the author, but the power of regret, and it is one of those where you know regret can be a motivator in the sense that as long as you learn from it, and what you're talking about there is wanting to learn, having a sort of positive approach to those regrets to drive you forward. And then makes me wonder what do you think the coach or the lecturer, what do you think they saw in you to think, oh with a bit of effort, you could go far.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think there must have been uh naturally, obviously, quite quite a big, quite a big man for the for that side uh for that side at that point. I also think he knew if he got the best out of me that he was gonna be positive for the college anyway, in terms of the impact it could have had on the team that he was coaching. Uh, I also think, yeah, I think he's seen a determination even from the year before um of going like, yeah, he probably could be a bit fit, I probably couldn't help him on his skills, but actually the basics are there, and this guy's even when he gets knocked back down, is willing to work. So I think there was um uh a level of foundation there that he knew he could work with and add value to what he was already doing. But he's also uh going, I think he understood the influence he could have as well if I fully committed as well. So I think it was a nice balance between knowing that there was something there, but also knowing what he could add as well, which uh which I think we should never shy away from as well, knowing where we can have impact and where we can put energy for for people. And I think that comes right into my role now as well, which is which is really nice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're you're looking for that something uh in order to, you know, where you can see a spark in in many respects. And I guess for you being a player, starting to have those dreams about where you could go, what was your current situation? Because I'm keen to understand how you know where academic or sort of that academic focus or trying to continue, where did that come in and how did you find that balance?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that goes back to that ACL injury, going, you never know how long rugby's gonna last. Uh that was a big one for me. My my wife, which is my my girlfriend at the time, but my wife now and my in-laws, they were always on me as well. As in, like, what else are you gonna do? What else are you gonna do? Like, rugby's not gonna last forever, what else are you gonna do? And because I started exploring that so early, it just gave me so many opportunities to see different things. Like, I think I love people who are masters in certain areas, and I think like mastery's so like amazing, and like I love speaking to people in those certain areas, but I also commend people who have gone out there and tried different things, and I'm probably more of a more of a try than a than a master of any uh individual thing, which is actually quite good for the role I'm in now because you you sort of understand quite a few different parts of things. So like I went on first of all my uh foundation degree in sports coaching, then I realized look if I have another ACL injury or another nasty injury and my career's over, I don't really want to be around sport. So then it was like, okay, what else are you gonna do? Then I went to do my plumbing qualification, which they'll come into their uh foot through the ceiling instant uh a little bit later. Went to do that, realized how hard people have to work for their money. Everybody likes to tell you how much tradesmen uh in, but they don't also like to tell you that they work seven-day weeks and when uh and how hard they graph for that. Um then I went to do like leadership and management qualifications and shadowed some different businesses and people in different businesses, found that fascinating. And then I was coming to probably towards the end of my career where I was like, right, I need to focus in on an area now. You've gone so broad, something needs to come together. And I was probably coming back around to the idea of being involved in rugby because my career had gone on longer than I was expecting, and I thought, oh, I wouldn't mind because first of all, I was looking at working with um sort of youth, youths who hadn't had the best upbringing. So I was gonna do my social care degree, couldn't fit her in. Got told clearly from an hours point of view, you'll never fit her in from a rugby point of view. So I was like, okay, let's have a look at some other options. Then somebody was like, What about teaching? And I was like, Oh, I wouldn't mind working with um like 16 to 18-year-olds. So they were like, Oh, instead of doing your teaching qual, why don't you do your lecturing qualifications? It's like your post-compulsory uh teaching qualification. I was like, Oh, that sounds a good idea. So I'd sat around, I had a mentor, I had a my personal development manager who was working at the Ospreys at the time, Tim Jones, absolute legend, class. But I also I'd also go outside and speak to people who were like I really trusted outside and bring those ideas together just in case there was something else back. And uh I went to see the I went to see my uh went to see my uh the one who I went to see Exton or that. She was my old Welsh teacher and now owns a company in Cardiff. She's she's an amazing woman anyway. And like went to I went to see Guara and I was like, right, she was like, What are you gonna do for the next six months? So that qualification doesn't start for six months. I was like, put my feet up, like why why why wouldn't I put my feet up now? And she was like, Oh, well, you love speaking to people, you love interacting with people. Like, why don't you go and do an introduction to counselling course? It'll be like a really good skill for teaching or whatever you do. And I went to do an introduction to counselling course, only lasted 12 weeks, but changed my life in terms of like everything, how I seen things, my perspective, and yes, led me down a route around mental health, well-being, connection side of things. It's like really opened the doors for me in terms of that. So as soon as I had done my uh post-compulsory uh education and training qualification, got that done, and still didn't really know what I wanted to do. So pitched some ideas to some people around what I'd like to use the introduction to counseling qualification for and the mental health first aid instructors qualifications that I started racking up in the background and was like, I think we should do more in sport around like looking after young athletes to pitch the idea to go on. Sorry, right, you go.

SPEAKER_00:

I guess the bit I'm interested in here is there's a lot of experimentation that's taking place. I want to touch first on the support because those courses don't come for free. Getting the time to do that, so how did you manage one your time, but two, also paying into these courses? Was there a support structure that you could lean on?

SPEAKER_01:

First of all, there wasn't a support and there wasn't that individualized support within rugby as personal development managers, brother. About halfway through my career that came in that came into play where there was there was somebody there, but there still wasn't funding. Some of those qualifications I managed to get for at the time because there was like funding for one or two of those qualifications. I managed to get into those. Other ones just paid for myself, like my plummin, paid for myself. And it was sort of look, if you're not gonna earn any money from rugby, you're gonna have to earn money from somewhere else. So you may as well start making those sacrifices now. Um, and there was a there was a couple of hundred quid here and there. It was nothing, luckily, it was nothing to degree level where you're paying£9,000 a year. So I didn't have to dip into the part too much from uh from the academic point of view, but it was always always had people in the background. What are you gonna do next? How are you getting ready for that? How are you planning for it?

SPEAKER_00:

That's really you know fascinating to hear because like you said, that the the structure that you're getting wasn't quite, you know, it wasn't quite there. It came in as as you were developing as it or coming through as a player. And you know, you're playing top flight rugby, you know, but you're making the time. How how can you make the time when you're looking then at your team back then? How many of them were as active as you were? There are too many stories of banquet, mental health issues, and so I think it's time to every year it's thousands of activities at which point where they need to find four and children, four minute four, and like code, and find second wind academy. Find me on Insta or to my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy. But I'd love to know your thoughts on today.

SPEAKER_01:

Probably not many, be fair to say, but that's not to downplay the players. Uh there are not many, would have been. Um, I would have been Monday at the time, Monday, Wednesday nights in college, and then Wednesday all day working with a plumber. That probably would have been my the busiest of the structures. But you sort of realize that you get the you you can't wait to go to rugby on a Thursday morning because you realise how hard it is on a Wednesday to earn money. Um, another time of fitness. I know I'm not allowed to say it because of HMRC, but like well, my boss was giving me like£20 cash, and I was like, What am I doing this for? And he was like, I was like said to him, like, I'm like, I don't need the money, like I'm not doing this for the money. He's like, nah, I need to give you something. So it was like that compromising between the he feels like he's ticked the ball from that point of view and things. But like, I was like, wow, I've graphic today for this. And then you go in, you look at his uh contract negotiations and you see some of the figures. I'm I'm going, Well, this is pretty decent, the money can fix that. So yeah, so yeah, it makes it gives you it gives you a real perspective on terms of everything else as well.

SPEAKER_00:

That was the the bit I I know from our conversations, the plumbing, I feel it really gave you that perspective in in some respects before retiring from the game when you when it hits you and you realise you were coming back from the injury, but then even though you're going through degrees and getting those types of qualifications, there was something about you that wanted to learn again that mastery of of the trade. And you know, what was your rationale behind plumbing? And please tell us how skilled you were and how mastery what mastery you were. Absolutely zero mastery going on there.

SPEAKER_01:

You realize uh a six foot five and uh over I probably would have been over 18 stone at the time, and you realise that's not that's not the uh body shape to be good at plumbing, to get your hands behind toilet sinks to fit up into attics and uh and change pipes. It it was zero mastery going on, right? And there's a couple of times to go to the van, and my boss would say, Oh, will you go and get this tool from the van? And I'd open the door to the van and go, like, right, what tool is that? Like, I haven't got a clip. It was very humbling from that point of view. So now it was like it just gave me so much perspective in terms of like my boss would find it funny. We'd go to a couple of places and they'd have um say, like the Osprey squad photo, like they'd be supporters in the house of Ospreys, and they'd have the squad photo up. He's like, Oh, look at you, lucky you. And I'm like, Yeah, but we walk in other houses, no one cares that I'm your apprentice and I'm just with you. Like, they d they don't care, and like I was like, I need to be treated like that because when I finish playing, that's what I'm gonna be treated like, and I I got used to uh I got used to being like everybody else in terms of I don't always think professional athletes get used to that, and I think that makes transition a little bit harder. Like all those people cared about was was we gonna be finished by three o'clock, and when they offered a cup of did you want one or not? Like they didn't care about anything else. It was like that was the only things, and for me that was a brilliant lesson because the rest of the time you go in and you're at go in to places, school visits, whatever, and my Osprey's tracksuit, and everybody would want to see you, they'd have they'd really appreciate your time. You'd almost been I don't I don't mean for premier, but roll the red carpet out, but they would roll the red carpet out for you. You'd be treated, you'd be treated different, and you sometimes think that's because of you, but it's not, it's because you're a professional athlete and yeah, and what you represent. And um it's hard, it's hard to remind players at times that look, make the most of these doors being open to you because you're professional athletes, but like they're opening the door for you a lot of the time because you're a professional athlete and not because of you, and you need to earn you need to earn that respect and you need to show them the value you can add, not just say you was once a professional athlete as well.

SPEAKER_00:

When did you start to realise that it was gonna end? Yeah, that retirement was real.

SPEAKER_01:

Sad thing is right, I probably always thought through my career. There was there was one three-year contract early on in my career. I was I think I was about 24 to 27, and that was rolling in, and I was like, I'm good, yeah. I've got like I was rolling into that contract, I was like, this is gonna be a good contract. I was I was playing well, things things were going well. Like I'd been injury free for quite a bit going into that contract. I was um, yeah, you you feel wanted, you feel like you could add value even if you were gonna choose to go elsewhere, even though I didn't want to go elsewhere. But if I did have to, I felt like I could uh could offer there and settling anywhere. So I probably took me to about 27 but probably probably from about 27 to when I finished at 31 it was like oh well how I like I should get my next contract but I might not so like being ready and it was always I always wanted I always said I needed to be ready by 30 to like have my plan in place or anything and still even when I finished at 31 I didn't have it.

SPEAKER_00:

No you didn't have any options but not a plan okay alright well I guess that's what I was I was going to jump in on is what did you mean have a plan?

SPEAKER_01:

I genuinely very naively thought that there'd be a contract waiting for me outside. Done enough work outside of the game to be able to go yeah I can just walk into this job. There's a difference between and I I I get into this quite a lot with players there's a difference. Look I could have lined up a job straight away for the day walked out and got into a job. That wouldn't be the job I wanted though. So there's a difference between things aligning for the job you wanted to be and the timing of that that's really hard if you're going to be picky and choosy but it's also but you can actually yes there would have been jobs for me that I could have walked straight out into um and had that would have paid enough of a salary to to pay the bills but I was probably afforded myself the luxury of not having to do that by doing a bit of planning thinking that things would come up. There was some there were some sketchy months in between when you get into the the last interview of like two or three jobs that you you're really keen on and then don't get but I would like afforded myself that luxury of going now these are the things I want to do so I'm gonna back myself and one of the afforded luxuries was um instead of retiring straight away from professional rugby I went down to semi pro and thought and I play semi pro for a year or two that tops up my wage so I can take the job that I want to do rather than have to do as well.

SPEAKER_00:

How clear was that job that you that you thought you wanted to do then as you retired as you say you had options but not you didn't have something concrete.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah that I no not clear in all honesty in terms of there was quite a few different things that it could have been but I also needed those roles to come out at the right time. So like in fairness like for so the role I'm doing now the personal development manager role I applied to do one of those over at the bridge in England which would have like would have been a bit of travelling in the time and the job in Swansea University that I ended up getting I went for it the first time didn't get it one of the other girls who I worked with my first two years she got the job but then they were like at the end of the interview look we're gonna put another post out for this role in the next two weeks like we'd love for you to go for it. You are like there was one of two of you and like we picked the other person but we do want you on board and it was like okay I don't know if they're telling me the truth now but we'll see in now we'll see in a couple of weeks if it does come out or or whatever. Then there was knowing you were second best um she's I'd actually become a good colleague a good friend but still yeah I know look it it was it was tough at the time it was uh I I'll be honest as well like humbly I can say they made the right choice as well to for me to be second choice like after eh you can deal with that and it's funny as well in it because you winning and losing is the only thing you do in sport and you go home and you you tell your wife that um you didn't get a job but you got into the last two in like three or four different jobs and they're like wow that's so class like a job like that and you got into the last two like first time applying I haven't been in any other work other than fresh and rugby like it's brilliant dream going to the last two you're like brilliant I didn't get a job like I applied for a job I didn't get it like that's all you see is outcome uh from that from that placement and that's why I speak to the players a lot like you know if we can open a door for you now and people can set you up with the role for when you finish that's amazing but the rest of you will have to go through an application process and there when we were talking earlier around hard work you still need a little bit of luck to go your way like whether it's somebody who's thinking about applying who would be a better application than yours not applying or whether it's somebody in the building going oh I think athletes add so much value I think like we should give this person a chance like whatever that bit of luck is and sometimes you don't even see that luck.

SPEAKER_00:

You do need that that going your way as well and look that's hard to deal with when we only deal in outcomes of winning and losing as well yes yeah and you you spoke there about options and you had options even into things that you perhaps wouldn't have really enjoyed that you you know you could tell in your heart of hearts you didn't want to do interesting then that you were able to make a decision about those options because for many it's like I'm retired I'm out of the game I've got to go and do something else now you did give yourself a buffer with the semi-pro uh rugby how did you know what options were the right options for you reading listening thinking thinking around really prioritizing right when you left professional sport what what did you did you want?

SPEAKER_01:

Little things I've been able to I knew I was never going to be in professional sport but being able to take the kids to school and being able to be around a little bit more giving me the flexibility that so if you do want to play for another year or two in SAMI Pro, it gives you whatever your job is gives you enough time and flexibility to be able to do that. But also CPD for me like being able to carry on developing I've been in a structured career I'd been jack of all trades in terms of what I've had interest in but like where's the area now you want to spend more time and focus in as well and in the meantime just before I'd finished uh professional rugby I set up my own company and that was that at the time that like it's still going okay now but like was was was going quite well and I was like I don't want to be on my own I also doing something that in my own business that I'm really passionate about that I don't want to have the pressure on there of I have to earn money because I'm gonna have to make different choices around that business rather than being it being for a being for a better purpose. So there was quite a few things that went into it and also like now my wife's an unbelievable support of me she's like like um you've been so happy through your career and what you do like I can't think of anything worse than you being in a job where you're well you hate what you're doing you're as stressed as like you sat in front of a computer and do an admin like I am all the time. I couldn't imagine what you're gonna be like and I was like yeah it's a fair point. So it's that balance of her being like I would rather you have a a lesser salary and a bit of a smile in your face and a bit of energy about you rather than rather not have that. So I was afforded quite a lot of luxuries in that right as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah that that's good it's good to have that that support and you know around you but also kind of well not a mirror but someone who can reflect back to you what they see in you what they think is important to you so it like you say it reaffirms it's something that goes yeah yeah you've been better doing that you you'll be a great person if you do that so you've got that full support and that's often a missed element when we think about that uh that transition making a good decision.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah and also explain them what they need as well like don't be scared just say here as well like if like um I have sometimes the other way around where players are like um their partners like oh um yeah go and do what you want to do and I'm like do you know though that will the maximum say salary in this is only that like uh can you live with that as a family no no we can't live with that well like let's be realistic as well the other way around don't be scared to say your needs from that point of view and it always comes back to clear communication and we're just a small as a personal development manager you're a small part of that but you need to ask a few difficult questions at times where at times players look at you like are you really asking me that and I'm like well look you don't have to give me the answer but you do have to think about it as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Think about that that's right and it's putting that that that thought in their mind and it it because well sometimes look as athletes you you know what you know and if they're not naturally as adventurous you know perhaps as energetic as yourself trying to take all those opportunities around the game whilst playing it it's when we pose that question and leave that with them to think well yeah I I don't know but even if it hits them a week later or whatever it might be at least it's begun.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah 100% and look they you never know it's one of those isn't that you uh when you plan something you never know and when's the first time it's gonna rear his head from the ground but um you know if you give it enough support enough uh enough of what it needs around it it will rear his head at some point so it's just um dropping that question giving enough support and guidance that if they do want to come back with anything they can or hoping that you've put enough support in place that it stimulates a conversation away from you as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah yeah absolutely so I'm I'm interested then the the role ultimately that you took the the principal role at university talk to us about what that role was and how you transitioned into it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah so that role was the title of the role was athlete support officer so we had 95 scholarship athletes across 17 different sports um across all academic ranges within the university we had somebody on um in every under under under every umbrella across the university so it was it was fascinating to see the differences in commitments to training to being an elite athlete and then also to the to studies as well because obviously each course has different demands so yeah it was a fascinating um it was a fascinating role in that sense and it was me and uh the other girl varity who had got who had got the role before me doing it and yeah it was just a brilliant space uh not only developed myself but asked questions to learn more but also because you had a range of different people coming through the door for every meeting you learned so much around that personal space and how to make different people feel valid trusting of you your service making sure that you added value um yeah and it was like a perfect I I said to somebody the other day it was like a perfect transition role for me it was enough enough space to fall over um but somebody was gonna catch you before you fell on your face so that's uh um you could trip yourself over you could ask dull questions I remember asking somebody in the office um there's this XL spreadsheet I was like how do I add another column to this and they all looked at me laughing their heads off and I'm like well I'm not being funny but I've never done this I've never had a need to to do this and is those and even though they would laugh and they would joke about it they'd bring it back up I know as my secret Santa present that year I had an XL spreadsheet cup that had all the different formulas on there that everybody would have a giggle about but it was supported in terms of yeah well fine you had you had different skills to this so when we need to present something we'll do the PowerPoint together but like you you deliver it because you're there from the house from that point of view. So it was using skills but also not hiding away from the skills that hadn't been developed um which was dawn dinner times. So what do you think helped you be successful in that role? I think being lived experience is huge. I think that I I do feel that probably gets you somewhere where it takes a long time for other people to to build into that and look that's not saying to as soon as anybody walks through the door hi I'm Lloyd I'm the expression rugby player like it's not doing that but it's going when somebody says to you oh look yeah my motivation's really low at the moment because I've been I'm injured and I'm like okay yeah yeah I understand I know from my point of view when I done my ACL I felt like this this and this I didn't have any of that resonates to you and all of a sudden they're going oh you've been through it have you yeah yeah I've been through that side of things or it's somebody made a mistake on the weekend like playing and you're going yeah yeah I completely understand I can't tell you how many times I've been dropped from making mistakes um then they're going okay yeah so and then but it's also like in the in the good times going somebody's somebody's just been selected for like a world champs and you go in look that's brilliant and I'm not I'm not gonna be the person to burst your bubble but also you've got three exams in the build up to that so how are we gonna manage your time on the build up so that I know what it's like to have the acid the the inflated success around you but also have to things you have to do get done so like how are we going to balance this up together and I mean we you just you know on your own in this we can balance this up together. So I think that lived experience of being through it was a was a was a big one. The fact that because I knew I didn't know everything I was happy to say I didn't know everything as well to be going look if they said oh I don't know how I do this on my course okay let me chase that up here I don't know either but I'll chase that up here and get it back to you in the next 24 to 48 hours. That takes a sense of humility to accept that you don't know everything and you know you opened you know we spoke at the start around mastery and how that's something that you truly value and and yet here's you recognizing accepting that you're not a master of all of these things maybe that's why I respect mastery so much though because I've never got anywhere near mastery in anything so I'm like wow for you people who've dedicated all your time your research your money your energy into the into mastering different things is unbelievable that you've uh stayed on course to master that as well yeah well look there is a thing where you can be in you might not know how to m to create a map but you can be an expert map reader and I guess what you're in a position doing is whilst you don't know the answers to how to create everything you're good at being at finding the signs the signals to direct people to to where they should be or where they can be in a better place and I'm interested then as a PDM now does you know you know we opened up this this this feels like the right type of role for you and there's a lot of the signposting in that how did you make then that next shift from being um a student athlete manager at uni towards being then the PDM I've been sort of back in the changing I was pretty lucky I was uh during my time at the university there um there was a lot of opportunities for CBD so I managed to get some of my qualifications done around um athlete performance lifestyle managed to get that qualification done managed to do quite a few other little bits of CBD that I wanted to get done and all that time I was still lead for mental health and wellbeing for the Welsh Rugby Players Association so I was still dipping my toes in doing the talks around mental health and wellbeing but not on the ground full time so kept kept my links there and the personal development manager who was a who was at Ospreys was amazing guy Tim Jones like very very very good guy like loved by everybody really good hearing people listening to people and knowing what to do with our information as well and um I remember going I don't I we'd always still catch up after I'd go for a coffee once in a while and um that I missed call off him one day and he was like oh I'm thinking about giving up uh thinking about retiring finally retiring uh from it he was an ex-police officer so he he had I think he thought he was gonna do two or three years as a personal demand manager then fell in love with Ed and stayed for seven years and I I think he was like family's changing it's the time now to step away and he was like if I am gonna step away like I'd love you to not not have the job but have the opportunity to have the job so like would you would you be interested in it because before I go I think I owe it to the players and the club to put as many good people up for this opportunity as possible and so we sort of sat down and was like look I think I understand your role I think I understand and see it more now because I've done this at a university I think I could add different things but like let's sit down and go through it. So we spent three hours one day going through like different the nitty gritties the conversations that do you actually want to be back on the ground where should my boundaries be that his boundaries hadn't been and the fact that my lifestyle was different to his lifestyle so we could commit different things and we got into it and I was like nah I'd I think I'd really like to do it so it's go home speak to my wife and go like this opportunity's coming up what what you think about it like go through it and it was sort of yeah as long as this this and this is still in place because I love having you for this this and this and I was like okay I think I can manage it so that it does have that still in place and then go through the normal interview process. Obviously very lucky that it was with my ex-club where you're able to go think I still understand enough from being on the ground I think I we I didn't never you obviously see a lot of athletes fall out with clubs when they leave feel like they deserved a little bit more from the club or the club feels like they deserved a little bit more from them. I was very lucky I didn't leave on those grounds and then you sort of when you you're glad you've left that bridge wide open in in terms of like that relationship you're glad that um you can go back in there speak your truth from your personal opinion um and also that I feel from my relationship with the players that were still in the room or the players who I played against from a semi pro point of view over the last couple of years who had now progressed into that pro team I felt like that they would respect where it come from and I do also feel that leaving two years to go into a different organisation taught me so much good and bad at different things and so uh you can bring it back with a much better outlook and experience to come back in and it just felt like the right time and I remember getting asked in my interview like there had been posts that went out say six months before that in other in a in the other clubs and I hadn't gone for them and it was like oh why no why now why like you didn't go for it last time and I was like it wasn't the right time and I'll be honest I would probably prefer this to be another six months down the line in all honesty and but I'd regret the fact that from a window point of view somebody's likely to come into this role say they're four years and four years is too long as well so being honest around and I think everybody looked at me a bit like what you're admitting that even now is not the right time and I was like I'm still learning in Swan's university I still got loads to learn from that point of view so but I do feel like I can genuinely add value right now coming in as well. Yes and a couple of bits interesting about that situation and one is you know we talk about the power of your network and there you are having a conversation about a role before it came up and you know one of those things and it meant that you got three hours with the individual doing it at that time and you had the relationship with them of course but they contacted you and you were able to spend that time really understanding well what are the key facets of this role how you know what value can I bring which means that you know more and you know more as you go into that interview stage and you can be true you know honest and open about what can I bring to this role and why also be very comfortable in being different like from like there was the we sort of sat down and was like what's the non-negotiables like for this role from your opinion my opinion you're a player you like uh Tim was like you're a player you've been through it what was the non-negotiables if you were going to engage with me okay have you got those okay what he's like these are the extra things I've probably done that like they're up to you if you do but also be comfortable not doing those things and then it was like okay what what different though what's the different values you're gonna add and then like we talked about past experience playing experience and he was like like we laugh and joke at him and he's like at times he's like I wanted to I picked up the pads so the boys could smash me and tackle me because I wanted to earn respect in in in that sense whereas mate don't worry you're not gonna have to pick up a pad they've seen you batter yourself for years so you don't have to pick up those things but being able to have that like you said that insight right uh we all think we know we think we see what other people do but unless you really sit back and have that time with them you don't understand and then you only understand it a small percentage of till you go into that role and do it properly as well.

SPEAKER_00:

I guess I'm I'm now thinking probably a couple of questions left one is you talk about you know being in this role coming into it now and so when you say to yourself there's a perhaps a limited time of the value you can bring and and what's going on what does that mean next for you? Where do you see your future going?

SPEAKER_01:

It doesn't worry me at all as well and I'm like very love where I am uh carry on developing as a person and you will find something that makes sense like there's some of the time I'm going to find out things for players and I'm like oh wow that role sounds really interesting and like you get intrigued and you find out a little bit more and you're like okay maybe maybe you could pursue that in a couple of years time but you're like now's not the right time for that I wouldn't like to do and others you go wow I'd love to know a bit more about that you find out more and you're like wow I'd hate to do that job I'm so glad I didn't do that job so whether people admit to it or not there's always a level of self-interest when you go to find out other things and I'm very comfortable admitting that but I'm definitely like you're definitely not going into things looking or trying to pursue those things but it is really interesting finding out about other people's roles and I love knowing what people do because you spend so much of your time at work but we know like hardly anything about what other people's jobs are or actually are we just know like the title so to be able to find out more like I got some ex players now in different roles and I'm ringing out what's this like what's this like and they're like why are you so interested I'm like well it's because you're doing it but I know nothing about it. I want to know more about it. And they're like okay that's cool and then all of a sudden like half hour later they're telling you about the good the bad and the ugly in that role as well I'm like look if I had sent a player to you you wouldn't have told him all these things about it so I need you to have when I send the player your way these are the conversations you need to add I need they need to know the good the bad the realistic terms I don't want just the red oh it's brilliant I earn this much a year I want the fact of yeah but I'm away four nights a week or like or when they put us up they put us up in terrible accommodation or whatever the bad side oh I've got to be on my phone 247. I want them to know that side or for the people who hate their jobs I want them to know the good side of it as well because otherwise you're just gonna tell them the bad side of the job. So is that balancing up and to be able to find that out about people and see what different people like in different roles like I know I've got some players now who absolutely love working from home. I got the players who hate it and you're like okay I can't tell everybody now to work from home like how do we balance that up well I speak to both people some who work from home some who don't so you can balance that conversation up yourself as well yeah I love that I mean that that that's great so last question really when you get players coming up to you now it's really interesting because you've got 50 different personalities so every conversation's a little bit different. Well I think it's more more the niches you're gonna hang on to is it the fact that somebody's got a family so you go in like okay what does what does it need to look like around your family is it a is your most important thing being around or is your most important thing providing for them or if you're talking to a young athlete it's like okay I understand your focus is on rugby but we're also got a short term career um how are we going to start drip feeding education? Have you thought about look you you've had a really good year your next year your contract's probably gonna be a lot bigger than is now how much of that money do you actually need is it let's put a financial plan in place even if it's not an educational plan and a professional development point of view it's speaking to the senior players at times and going like look how long do you think it's gonna take you to get a job and then some of them like think they're gonna walk into one some of them don't think anything of it and then it might be going right I I personally would love it if you were planning for a year not having a salary so you know that you're comfortable for that year and you can find a job you want other players other players from that point of view it's going you haven't you haven't done anything have you had the conversation with your partner to say how much do you need to earn next year and when you're away from rugby and then so it's breaking it down with every person is slightly different. For some of them it's an arm round for other them it's a direct conversation for other them it's like right do you want to see what I've done see if any of that's like sparks your interest for others it's like have you spoke to oh remember so and so used to play with us have you spoke to him since he's retired no I haven't spoken to him speak to him by his job see what you think about it. So for every player is it's so different and your relationship with our player from the people you that I'm still very close probably to they wouldn't like to admit it but most of them very close to the end of their career the players who I played with um and still there and then you go in that conversation slightly different to um the younger players coming in who you probably you haven't played rugby with but then there's other players who've already been in education you're like mate just keep triffing that education through you don't have to do another degree but maybe something so you you're used to it you're already in that flow of learning. So carry on that learning now rather than stop for two years and then try and start going again. But yeah right I'd love Java text bug answer for you where we go this is what I'd say but it's like it's just a fascinating role of so many different personalities.

SPEAKER_00:

What you've really focused in on there there are different strategies to get to that answer. We know it's coming but it isn't a one thing or there aren't here the two things that everyone must do because what you're talking about is that engagement and look that's that's one of the reasons why we we do the show why we do what we do is trying to get as many different um I guess many different opportunities for um others to see how can how can this happen you know because we we can't get everybody in the same way.

SPEAKER_01:

And yeah and it's so and it is so different and so frustrating at times as well that it is so different because I'm like right look so and so's doing this just go and do it but you like if that it's like it's like it makes it different you know it's what it it's what makes it fun it's what takes away the the fact of it being boring the same thing every day is the fact that there are so many athletes so many players that we're working with and it's actually our skill has to be establishing that relationship finding out where they want to go and as you say perhaps chatting that that plan on the map uh for them um so listen Lloyd you there are going to be people watching listening to this who are going to think oh I want to rechat I want to have a chat what where's the best place to find you LinkedIn probably do most of the the like those professional side of things from a conversational point of view Lloyd Ashley on LinkedIn um or um from um this that is probably yeah I'd say right that's the that's the easiest and best place to pull that and um any and I always and I I mean this I don't like obviously your network is global but if there's anybody ever in Wales that wants to come in shadow wants to come and see what a day in the role is like or pick up the phone around what a day in the or our life is like and where we're best to go like please feel free to reach out because for me I always reach out to different connections like we were talking earlier around us having a conversation two years ago because I reached out to you from seeing the work you do and we we talked about into some some niche parts of parts of the roles there and where I wanted to do some CPD at the time and uh like I really appreciated doing that. I do as much of that as I can as well the other way around because um there's so many amazing people around the world of sport that that want to help us some some people don't always know where to start and yeah feel free if you're ever interested in that personal development manager or play a care role that please feel free to reach out from that point of view as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Lloyd last time I just got to say massive thanks for well catching up again but also for taking the time out of your your day enjoying the sunshine in Wales uh for anyone who've done that's it so listen thanks again for taking the time out loved hearing about your perspective as a former player and thank you for your time Ryan really appreciate it and keep up the good work mate thank you for listening to the second win podcast we hope you enjoyed hearing inside from today on transition out of competitive career if you're looking for career you're looking make sure you check out the second window more information comes in with me I like it competition podcast solution I think from I can put a podcast again. I saw some

Head Shot

Ryan Gonsalves

Host