181: Ben Herring - From Player to Culture-Builder: What Athletes Need to Unlearn and Relearn After Sport.

Ben Herring knows what it's like to be knocked back, knocked out, and still come back stronger. In this episode, he shares the raw, unpredictable journey from overlooked schoolboy to pro rugby player, then international coach. From New Zealand to Japan to Australia, his story is filled with lessons on ego, identity, starting over, and building a life beyond sport. 

In this episode, you will hear:

- Why Ben kept his goals private, and how he methodically mapped out his career

- What it's like to have four kids born on four different continents while chasing a coaching dream

- How early rejection and C-team selections shaped his resilience and humility

- Why being overlooked until 21 gave him a major advantage in pro rugby

- The surprising financial advice he followed that set him up for life after sport

- The hard truths of concussion and how personal ownership helped him recover

- Why he originally said no to coaching—and how his wife changed his mind

- What great coaches do beyond tactics and drills

- The art of building culture, and why environment always beats strategy

- How coaching is really about connection, trust, and helping others shine

- Why every athlete should regularly “start again” with a new challenge

- His take on ego, identity, and letting go of the need to be seen

Golden Nugget 

" If you've never had to start from the bottom, you're going to struggle when your sporting career ends. But if you've made a habit of starting again; learning a language, trying something new, being a beginner, you’ll be ready. And you'll be excited."

Want to Go Deeper?

If you are looking for career clarity for your next step, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

Transcript

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Quiet Goals And Methodical Drive

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I don't believe that sharing a goal for me is the way I motivate myself. I like to keep it close in my chest. I'm quietly going about what I think I need to do. If if I need to ask someone, I'll ask them, but I won't tell them what my goal was. So when it came, it was a surprise to a lot, but it wasn't a surprise to me. It it wasn't out of the blue to me. It was part of my this was part of my journey. I was like, yep, tick, that's the one I wanted to get to this year. Done. And it was just right uh, that's next. And I know the next one after that is that. And I just got to do this, this, this, and this to get to that. And it's pretty methodical, but it was um a lot of joy in it too.

Show Opening And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves, and welcome to a Techn't Wind Academy Podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after sports. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Ben Herring, welcome to the show. Good to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Ryan, what a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Thanks for having me. Thank you. Well, do you know what? I am really glad to kick off what is effectively I think you're actually yeah, you are. You're the first recording I'm doing this calendar year. So for me that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

What a way to start. Like you need to start with a bang, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

That's right. That's it. And I think what's going to be a bit different is I'm also I'm quite interested in learning a bit from you as well as we go through, because the career you've had as a player, as a coach, and certainly for those who are going to be new to your name as a podcast host as well, I think there's just gonna be some wonderful tidbits that I'm gonna try and tease out of you as we go through, whilst getting a bit of your story um as well. So please be ready for that to share and just chat away. Madam, an open book. Awesome. Awesome. Well, look, Ben, for those who don't know you and who are tuning in and hearing

Ben’s Career Snapshot

SPEAKER_02 2:09

your name for the first time, I'm probably gonna follow you after this. Just give us a quick version, what you're up to nowadays. So who you are and what you're up to nowadays, that'll be great.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Ben Herring is my name, right? And uh currently I am the director of rugby at Newington College in Sydney, also the host of the Coaching Culture podcast with myself, Ben Herring. Previous to that, I have been uh had a 10-year professional rugby career with the Hurricanes and the Highlanders and the Leicester Tigers in England, and then uh went on to have a what is a 16-year professional rugby coaching career, which uh all the way up to international level with a couple of international teams, uh a number of super rugby teams, and toured the world, had kids on four different continents, and been that sort of coach where my wife said, I'll follow you anywhere if you're chasing this dream. And I was privileged enough to have a wonderful woman like that that's allowed me to see the world, and we've taken the family around, they've learned different languages, and we've decided uh last year that we'd return to an English-speaking country and get the kids, we have four of them, back into speaking English again. And they are thriving here at Sydney, and it's been a incredible journey and a transition now into a whole different sphere of things, and it's it's absolutely wonderful. Love and life.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah, that is brilliant. They've already opened up so many different questions that I didn't have in my mind anyway, uh, to try and delve into. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pick the first random one, which is kids born in four diff in different continents.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yes.

Family On Four Continents

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Well, when I first got this bug of coaching, so I I I I will talk about this probably later with my transition from playing. I I I very abrupt end to playing, and then the team I was with asked me, uh the Leicester Tigers, which is a very big rugby um club in Europe, asked me to say I'm as a coach, and I had no interest in being a coach, and I did a couple of years and absolutely loved it. Um so my wife was always like, mate, they must have seen something in you which would make they thought you'd be a good coach. And after two years, I was like, I I've got this bug, man. I love I I I just want to roll this, I want to do this all the time. I was already doing all day at Leicester, then I was moonlighting at a second division club just to keep coaching. And I said, I want to I want to learn this craft as best I can. Like, I don't want to mince about and do it slowly, I want to maximize. So I was coaching two teams at once, and so I said to my uh my old agent, I was like, I want to go somewhere where I'm gonna be tested as a coach, I don't want to learn just regurgitate techniques and stuff like that. I already kind of got that. I want to be tested, sink or swim stuff. And he said, Ben, I've got an opportunity for in Japan, mid-level company team in the top league. Do you want it? And I said to my wife, this is the start of it. And she she was so awesome to say, I'd love four kids. I don't care where we have them. I I just want us to be together wherever in the world we are, and let's let's really have a crack at it if you want to do this. And so, wait, what what more license do you need than that? So mate, I'm I'm very privileged on that front. I a lot of good mates who are professional coaches have to leave their their partners behind, but I was privileged to be able to take my beautiful wife with me and have children all over the world and have very different birth experiences all over the world, some good, some average, but wonderful, mate. So, yeah, a couple of my kids are affluent in Japanese because we lived there for a number of years, and um yeah, it's just a great way to for me to develop professionally, but us as a family to come together and and develop differently, and that's one of the hugest learnings I've got on my journey is um parenting is coaching and coaching is parenting, and it's it's it merges together and blends beautifully. So privilege to be able to have my family life helping my professional life.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, I I I just think it's so so amazing. There's a few bits you mentioned that I I think ring true for me as well, in terms of that experience of overseas, travelling overseas and living overseas and then raising a family, I guess not just overseas, but in different cultures, cultures that are different to the ones that um we perhaps grew up in. And it means from a like you say, from a an individual perspective, you're probably naturally curious and inquisitive about that culture and what it means and some of the ceremonies or customs that that come with that, but then also having your children to be able to experience it as as well. I've found so enriching from from us being through Hong Kong and China. It's just been wonderful with the boys, the the elder two boys indeed being fluent in Chinese and thinking, wow, that's just that's just weird.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, certainly, certainly

Empathy, Language, And Resilience In Kids

SPEAKER_00 6:49

when I used to take the kids into the rugby clubs I was with in Japan and they would sort of freak out that like m my kids are speaking Japanese like local kids and all the slang and they understood all the jokes and they had all the you know, they knew all the nuances that playground banter has. Uh they they thought was hilarious. But I th I think you're right, Ryan. I think um what one of the massive things that traveling the world does and being able to do it with a profession like coaching is and taking your family with you, is like the empathy that the kids have, they know what it feels like to be on your own and and and isolated and a little bit different. Like they just they have that sort of respect for people and they have a little bit of empathy and sympathy for people and I I think it's put some really amazing traits into my kids in that they know what it feels like to be the odd one out, to be that the only you know, the only one that doesn't speak the language in the whole school and they're having just to work stuff out, you know. Like we just threw them into public Japanese school, for example, and they just had to they from I I I'd get home after months and be like, how are these kids doing it? They're just rocking up every day to school, can't speak a word of the language, and they're getting through it. And then after about a year, I come home, my son's doing homework, and I'm like, what are you doing? He's writing kanji, and I'm like, what? And he goes, Oh, it's history dad, we're learning about the local uh emperors around here, and I'm like, what an experience! Like the brain pathways where we've opened up uh on this kid or all our kids, that they just they're speaking two languages, they're dreaming two languages. Like, that's gotta be good for your capacity to learn stuff later in life. So we're really proud, mate. It's not it's not without its um downside as well, like it's lonely and you go through all that stuff as well, and you don't have the true connections that you would, you know, in a language in a place where you could speak the language, but man, like what we're seeing now is our kids are independent, social, um, empathetic, caring, all the great traits you want as a parent. Like, it just seems like that's what's evolved, and I'm really proud of the choices we made because it's it's I'm really proud of my kids.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, the opportunities that created. So I'm I guess I'm curious then to to come in a bit about you then and how that perhaps started because as you were you know, for you. Talk to me about where you grew up and did you have this global view? Was that how you were raised as a as a child?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, massively. Right, and my like my dad is one of those weird, weird cats. He's he's a great man, but he's got that element of weirdness, which I I reckon I've picked up as well. He he so we lived in New Zealand, and New Zealand rugby is a national pastime. Everyone does, it's like a religion, and he must have been the only man, like he's a fit, strong, athletic guy, hadn't didn't know anything about rugby, didn't know anything. So where does that where does it uh he would say things like for the rugby audience of this podcast, he would say, uh uh is there a game on today? I was like, Yeah, dad, the Bled is Low Cup, and he'd be like, Who's that between? I was like, Australia, New Zealand, it's like the big one of the biggest trophies in this country. He's like, Oh, okay. And I'd be like, What if a man, this is crazy. But uh he he was a massive influence because he just he was a guy, he's a can-do guy, sailor. Um he he used to just adventurer, he would go off all over the show, buy himself the Pup in New Guinea, do all these massive tours. So I've I've definitely picked it up by him and just that that

Late Bloomer Mindset And Persistence

SPEAKER_00 10:03

want to travel and see new things and experience life because he was always soon as high school finished, he said, uh, you now have to pay a considerable rent if you want to stay here. Like, I want you out and I want you to go overseas, I want you gone and I want you to experience life. I don't want you to be around me because you've picked up enough from me. Take the good bits from me, but all the bad bits, and there's a few of them, go and work how to do those out yourself, and you've got to get out of this house. So it's a considerable rent, off you go. And I love that attitude, and so off the island, as soon as school finishes off the island, big experience over there, then come back and get into my union and all that stuff. Um I I guess my my where my upbringing is a little bit different from a lot of professional rugby players is that I didn't ever make it um through school in my until I was 20. Like didn't make any A team at high school, no first 15. I just couldn't get a break. And I reckon that that's what's um kept me pretty grounded and and sort of a little bit different, and that I haven't been through any systems. I've just I made it at 21 where I got my first professional contract out of nowhere, and then I was like, wow, this is cool. And I I I like to say that that upbringing, that little bit of always disappointment when you're playing for the under-14s and you get named on the C team, you're like, oh and you just get used to that sort of um disappointment, and when it comes later on, when you get knocked out too many times and you have to retire professionally, it's it's not too big a deal because you've you've gone through it quite a few times before.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Well, I was just surprised. I was I was asking you about um whether so you've you whilst you turned pro at 21, you to what extent were you still playing sport? Because you mentioned your dad was not this sporty type or the rugby, the rugby guy. So was sport discussed at the table as you were growing up? Was it like a part of your upbringing in in in that in that regard?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, it was. Um well dad just dad was a great supporter. Like he would come to every single rugby game. He didn't really he always used to say to me, Why do you play this game? I don't understand what the appeal is here. But regardless of that, he was an outstanding supporter. He was just there. And I actually loved his feedback more than anyone else in the world, uh over coaches and everyone, because he was turning up to games and he didn't know much about the rules or the game. He just was watching me and he would say stuff sometimes which would be he'd just pull something out of the bag, would be like, I saw you and that other fella get into a little tussle over there. What was it all about? And those sort of comments. And I knew um he would just shake my hand after a game and say, Well, well done, good game. And and it wouldn't say much. And and it was it'd ask me little questions. I just knew he was watching the whole time. And it was a lovely feeling to just know that you're being watched right. Like and it's it takes into my parenting, you don't need to say a lot. And certainly as a coach now, I gotta be I don't say anything to my kids because like they they're hanging on my words, so I just nod and say, enjoy yourself, good, cool. And I think that's probably my learning from my dad that the way he just watched, observed, and just was himself as a parent on the sideline was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

So was professional sport for you an aspiration? Was it real a realistic thing for you to achieve for?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I guess if you'd asked anybody

First Pro Contract And Perspective

SPEAKER_00 13:20

that knew me, it would have been an absolute pipe dream. Um but I just had this quiet um uh confidence in myself. It's like I I just did it because I loved it and I wanted to get good at it, and I want to do the best I can. I had this inner fire and burn that is like, I reckon I'm pretty good, and I reckon I can be good, and I reckon I if I just focus and go hard, I might be. And it didn't like because I was so internally had my own internal fire, it didn't matter if I wasn't getting selected, and didn't didn't really bother me. I was like, oh well, I'll just do my best to be the player of the year on this team, which is the C team. No problem. And I I had a quiet thing in my head. I remember like w where I was growing up, we used to have some of the um provincial players in our team train at the same gym that I started going to, and I remember seeing when they used to bench press and while they used to squat, and I said, I can get to that. But like it's not so far away. And then that was my little internal tickers like that's the guy playing in the position I want to play in, and that's what he's lifting, right? That's my first step. And I think um just not having I never grew up through an academy or anything like that. So then the advantage was that is I just had to work it out, you know. I just had to say, what do I need to do to be good at the stuff I need to do? And I had to think about drills and things and do it myself because I didn't have someone there telling me, and I reckon that's actually a blessing, a real blessing, and especially in today's age where when you come through that academy system, you get sort of said, This is what you have to do, this, this, this, and you almost become a bit of a robotic shape where I was left to my own devices to work it out, and this was the part of the game I wanted to be good at, and I just thought about ways to do that, and when it did it. Now, if I went to an academy and said, This is what I'm doing, the trainer would have said, Not a chance you're doing that. No way, you're doing this, this, and this, this is what we do. And I'm glad I missed that because it wouldn't have worked for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

No, I guess it's I mean hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I guess that slow burn to find that that path to sign that that professional contract helped you. And but not only that, I guess you you mentioned to your dad's words of getting you out of the house, going overseas, getting those other experiences as well. Um Do you think that I don't know, you sport sport was something you loved to do, I get a sense of, but it it wasn't everything.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

No, and I think it keeps I think having disappointment early in your um your journey, your sporting journey is a good thing. Like um it gets you it it just gets you a little bit um leather skinned around this is this is kind of life. You're gonna you're gonna have some wins, you're gonna have some losses, it's nothing personal particularly, it's just what is. And it does shape you later on. I think like my upbringing for those years, so finishing school to 21, so that was sort of three or four years there, where it was just I was just doing it because I loved it, and I think and getting knocked back along the way and having little wins along the way, but it's I think it's set me forth to be a really good professional. Like I I never took it for granted. I remember when uh I did make it first profession at 21, I got a really big contract. It's almost out of nowhere for a lot of people, but I remember saying, gosh, they're gonna pay me to do this. Like I would are the idiots, I would do this for nothing. I've been doing this for nothing for age. Love it. This is awesome. I said, as a university student, I was telling my flagmates, boys, this is how much they're paying me to play rugby, and they'd be like, What the heck? And I'd be like, Yeah, right? This is how good's this? This tubing. Gosh, they should have just said, Would you like to play for us for nothing? And I would have said, Hell yeah. But um, I think it keeps thing your life in perspective a little bit. And I think when you come to the other end of stuff, having that sort of perspective, like, yeah, when it's good, it's good, when it's bad, it's bad. It's something personal, it's just

Injury, England Move, And Playing Style

SPEAKER_00 16:59

what it is. I think is a really good outlook to take and keep it grounded and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah. What what were you studying at uni?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

I did on paper, I was doing a physic physical education degree, but what I was really learning. What I was really learning, which is the real joy of university, is how to how how to be social and and how to make mates, how to interact with people, um, how to just enjoy life. And the mates I made at university are phenomenal. Just like you go through that um really transformational time of your life with a group of people, um, all going through it at the same time. What you get from that is is is epic. And when you're flatting, we had seven boys flattening together uh for three years, uh the same crew, and gee, we're tight, and it's you all go through the ups and downs, you have your shockers, you drink too much a certain time, they have your blowouts and all that stuff, and you share that story and you become tight. And all those guys have gone on to do amazing things, like like we knew how to um enjoy ourselves, we knew how to be social, but we also knew how to buy ourselves when it mattered, and though those are lessons which are life lessons, which you go to university town like Otago, which I did, and that was the culture you you work hard by art, and I think that's a pretty good mantra for life. When it's time to knuckle down, do it. When it's time to enjoy yourself and let your head down, do that too. Yeah, and not lose sight of the difference between the two. Um I think that's r that's really massive. So I can't tell you technically what I learned from university, but I can tell you the mates I made and the good times I I could tell you stories on different podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, I'm I'm with you there um about the beauty of uni and listen I encourage for many to oh indeed the opportunity to get away and be I think it I'm gonna describe as a safe environment to make mistakes because you're with mates and you're bonding and you're all at that similar point and it it's just it's a good environment to to learn some of those life skills, right? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

And and I actually think it's it's a real missing piece, and I think is uh the beauty of sort of my transition to professional rugby. I got to be a full-time student for the whole course before I really like cracked on professionally. And these days um it's really tough on a lot of players because now you're coming straight out of school and often going straight into academies and systems like that, even in school, and you're missing that really amazing time of your life to actually learn life skills and learn what sort of the are real the nuances of the people are different, right? And like how to react to different people, how to socialise, how to treat one person one way and another person this way, how to all these life skills that you learn at uni, that is the point of uni. And I think when you bypass that and go straight into a professional world, you you get very narrow in your thinking. And then your life becomes the professional sport. And that's not a good place to be. And it certainly affects you in the point of this podcast at the other end. into that when you then come out of it and you don't know any better. You've just been exposed to 10 years of institutionalization like the shorthand redemption and you come out of the other end and you're like, man, you end up itching your name and the beam like Brooks did. Well that's a bit harsh probably but um but maybe a bit harsh but I get the idea.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

I mean you you do become institutionalized and uh probably you miss out even even if it's three years or four years from from say schooling time getting that exposure to normal life and then coming in. I mean I see it in athletes who come into the sports later or sports that require a dual track from from day one there is a difference in perspective in the way that they see the world and they see people and um just understanding that

Concussion, Ownership, And Recovery

SPEAKER_02 20:50

in that I guess how to interact differently as as you mentioned there. But I really like your perspective that that you brought. So I'm I'm interested then because I do love a that that sort of transition. Two questions one why did it seem out of the blue for you to be offered this sort of professional um opportunity or contract and what was it like?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Well I know it didn't it like I it didn't seem out of the blue like I I've it was quietly burning that I that I wanted this. It was just the the the zeros on it I guess was the one which surprised me because I was a student we were living on 30 bucks a week we're all chipping and we're drinking wine from casks and um that kind of thing. And so some people think that's good wine Ben I mean some people still live there not when not when you're trying to drink it as fast as you can and set record. No it was just like it didn't come out of the blue. It was I had this burn in me like I was kind of like this is my steps this is where I want to get to I had my quiet goals which I told no one about like I I don't I'm not a big goal sharer. I don't believe that sharing a goal for me is the way I motivate myself I like to keep it close in my chest I'm quietly going about what I think I need to do. If if I need to ask someone I'll ask them but I won't tell them what my goal was so when it came it was a surprise to a lot but it wasn't a surprise to me. It it wasn't out of the blue to me it was part of my this was part of my journey. I was like yep tick that's the one I wanted to get to this year. Done and it was just right uh that's next and I know the next one after that is that and I just got to do this this this and this to get to that and it's pretty methodical but it was um a lot of joy in it too. I guess it was just like it was just the contrast how quickly you go professional from 30 bucks a week you're eking it out with in a student flat um on the bare minimum to all of a sudden you're earning money which is silly you're given another house and a car and you're like whoa and all of a sudden you know my room is the room to be in because I've got a fridge stacked full of protein shakes and all and all my stash my my team kit has always gone missing and the boys are wearing it out on Saturday night I'm like oh guys I need that stuff I'm gonna get fined if I don't wear the right kit.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

And so I mean thinking about that then well that's that's for me is a lovely transition to have it

Coaching Offer And New Obsession

SPEAKER_02 23:10

later probably gives a a a great appreciation. So a random fact the reason I say that is I think the flip it's gonna sound really weird but the first time I got drunk I was about 19 19 maybe even 20 right um which is a good four or five years after most of my friends um but the the the process that night that we all went through as I was describing what was going on and it was like one of the biggest jokes because we just appreciated it and learnt from it as I was going through that moment. And I've no idea what I'm not quite sure why that just seemed appropriate right now. But I just feel like you transitioning into that professional career it's like that in the transition itself and your friends who it seems like who sort of followed you on that journey and got to sort of enjoy it or realize it with you that in itself must have been quite special I think coming in at a later stage for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah it was and I think you're right mate I think like even things at the appropriate time right like timing is is everything on stuff and like I think that when I'm talking about the appropriate time I think there's a really importance like I'm in a school now but like kids have got to be kids like there's a there's a drive to push kids to be professionals at school but you know they they've got to be kids first. You've got to learn that stuff and then you've got to be a teenager and then you've got to be a young uh 20 year old and you've got to go through the process there's some of the flip back is when you go to professional sport and you all of a sudden you're mixing with 35 year old vets that have been in the game for over a decade and you're having to sort of act that way before your time and I I'm I was really privileged and like you said like I got to have this experience with my mates and then it was all a bit of a laugh we were all having a bit of a giggle at it like um boys I got some tickets to the game do you guys want them they're like hell yeah this is awesome and it was this kind of like crazy experience that we've got some sort of but boozy uh students that were mates with me that were sort of tagging onto everything thinking it was awesome and at the end of every season you should have seen my room at the end like oh boys we don't need any of this this gear uh next year because it's an all new gear and they're like oh my goodness it was I was able to do like wrestling wrestle offs where I'd say to my flame mate I want this top it's a wrestle whoever wins gets it and it was just full

From X’s And O’s To Culture

SPEAKER_00 25:30

on there's a lot of joy um about d coming up a bit slower and I think you come up slower you you you become a person yourself you get to know the more you get to know others is the more you get to know yourself by getting to know others you sort of understand and shape yourself better and then when you get to that point where you've got to be something you've got to be a professional like and that's the thing Ryan you'd know like once you're a professional you're expected to be a professional like that bang you're a professional getting paid good money you're expected to be X, Y, and Z. And when you got to know yourself better through an experience of getting to know others through things like university or worldly travels you get to you know build on yourself. So the time you get to that point where you've got to be something you can be because you know yourself you know your ends and out you know what's going to work what's not going to work and you can be that better I reckon. You don't have any transition period going into professional um sport because you've had that little bit of life experience which has equipped you well enough to be able to adapt better I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Because I think a fair perspective as as well and certainly one that you live through and probably talk a lot through in it when we think about culture and sort of absorbing absorbing norms and values but then so you as a professional you're doing the job of your dreams where did you want it to take you and then just sort of give us that sort of brief you said in New Zealand what then inspired you to move overseas to play?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yeah well I I think I I never told anyone at the time but I of course you wanted to be growing up in New Zealand you want to be an all black and I I was unfortunately stuck behind a once in a generational player Richie McCaw don't know if you know but he is like the goat of world rugby all black captain 147 games never got injured same position never got injured same age um I got to play him heaps but I but he just um he just was the the best in the world right and so no one else got to look him because he was so tough and kept playing for everything. So I never got that that dream but I'm super proud that everything I did like I was a little bloke I I should never have got to a professional rugby really like it was just a bit of grit a bit of a niche um so mate that that that's that was always where I was um yeah my destination on that that I was stuck behind a great one but mate ultimately um injury struck me a little bit my knee blew out a few times and my New Zealand dream sort of came to an end because I couldn't run and I got to the end of a season I had four ops on a knee and the fourth one they were like in this I guts it down for the season they said all you've got there is arthritis all your colours is gone what you're feeling is arthritis uh you should retire because you're not going to be able to keep playing on this and my physio I was gutted and my I just got married and my physio who was English said if

The Culture Galaxy Metaphor

SPEAKER_00 28:21

you wanted one option you could go to England where you don't run anywhere near as much and maybe you could eke out another couple of years. Indeed yeah um and then just in my circumstance they um like the best club in Europe just happened to say we're interested and I was like gosh like this is fate, destiny whatever you want to call it like just got to take it then and then Ryan when I got there they said just to let you know that's a no um running pre-season this year because we played 36 games last year so there's no running in preseason it's just gonna be strength and I was like I've got a bad knee and there's gonna be no running in pre-season how good is this?

SPEAKER_02 29:05

That sounds like a dream that you have yeah so so that that was my transition and it it's it's proved to be um amazing so at that point you know speak a lot of players injury is is the the point of stopping like the injuries that you've just described. At that moment did this is the end of my rugby career did it truly cross your mind and if so did you then have a plan of what you would do instead?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah I made I always had the same plan. So the the plan was always when I I I didn't ever expect to play longer than 30. I I just knowing myself I I sort of always had that sort of fatalistic view where I'm gonna blow myself out so hard I'm gonna bash my body about that it's not going to be able to keep walking when I'm 30. Like that that was the way I went into it and that's the way it transpired as well. I was like mate I I'm a little guy playing a big game big boys game and I play hard and I go I get bashed about I'm I'm definitely not going to last past 30. So I had that going into it and so that that's kind of nice to know that there's a when you've got that white light at the end my my kind of white light was go hard till you can't go hard anymore and then then really throw the boots away. Don't just hang them up throw them to the river and say you're never going there again which in my wife would say 100% but I I I think for me that was the um um I just thought I could get an another couple out. I just like I had six months left on my contract when I got that news and my physio was brilliant. He was an English fellow and he just said look come in every morning do this rehab and I'll put you on hard rehab and get you ready for England and I just went I'm gonna do that and I did I worked really hard to get to a point where I I could I took a way too many painkillers like I do not take a painkiller these days anymore after taking them daily and I did a good job of it. Like the knee is like it's a metal knee now like I wore it completely out till I had to get it chopped off but I'm really proud of it. Like I look back now and I go that's how I wanted to do it I wanted no regrets. I didn't want to ever look back and go what if and there's certainly none of that because like even not making the goals I made I'm like well I've I I've got a knee to prove it at 40 years age of age. Yeah I haven't my best like I physically gave it I gave you my body yeah yes and loved it and yeah mate in the same wise at the end mate I got knocked out too many

Learning Culture In Japan

SPEAKER_00 31:27

times and and you did massive concussion issues and no regrets like had some really good learnings around that that side of things but it just um you look back on it with real pride and go I I was faced with a couple of options and I took that option and I'm really proud of that.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

So did you so you said you you figured you were gonna have to stop at about 30. Did you know what you would do after that point was that was that already set in stone or was it very much oh right well what are my options right now and that's what I take.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yep so um I I knew exactly what I wanted to do and coaching wasn't one of them. I wanted to travel in a combi van around the States for multiple years and just uh that was my goal. So that is exactly what I would have done and my wife had to persuade me otherwise when that point came. But like um in that like when I was knowing that 30 was my sort of cat I thought my cat would be I was actually pretty sensible financially and around all my money went to property and things like that. And I actually set myself up pretty good. So where did that come from?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Where did that guidance come from?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

My my father was brilliant with that sort of stuff. He he he was a real sort of can do he's like he he quit his job at 33 and said I don't want to work for the man I I want to work for me and I and I want to do it myself. So he's a guy that doesn't take any like um supers or anything like that. He just goes no I don't want to give my money to someone else to invest. I'm gonna do it myself. And so he had that sort of attitude and he was big on property and did very well with property um on his own like just a builder like he was a builder loved building worked it out bought the worst house in the Great Street and just worked hard on all the and so like I kind of went down that route as well I'm not talented at all in building and stuff but I was getting money for playing a game and I didn't need much to survive. I didn't need a car I didn't anything like that. I live on cans of baked beans no problem so the the first 60% of my salary always went to bang savings. And then when I got to the point I needed to I bought a house in a house and then did that. So when I the time I got to 30 there was an there was an ability to pick and choose a little bit what I wanted to do. Like I could take a shitty job because I had a little bit of money come well yeah a good amount of money coming in that would top me up so that I'd live comfortably like have two cans of baked meat if I needed which which I think is something which um probably we go back to that sort of learning a little bit about life and that like a lot of my buddies who came straight into pro stuff you know bought the flash car straight away because they're they're earning a hundred thousand dollars so they buy the hundred thousand dollar car straight off the bat um and

Authenticity, Ego, And Coaching Shifts

SPEAKER_00 34:05

those kind of like mistakes where you don't need it especially in a sport like rugby where it's the money's good but it's not it's not football. It's not basketball in America it's you're not going to be set for life for 10 years of playing rugby unless you are really clever with your money. You actually have to be onto it.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah. So not doing the combi van you've managed to put a bit of money aside um retirement due to concussion and you you mentioned at the start then this option to get into coaching which I guess you you know it sounds like the original plan at 30 you're throwing the boots away you're staying away completely from the game you took coaching what was going through your mind to to make or what guns were using to make that decision?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Well that that's all my wife so when I got asked to do that so like it w when I got um concussed I got multiple concussions like first game back first game back first game back so about three or four in a row the last one was the week my daughter was born my first daughter so the week she was born I got concussed badly my mum and dad had flown over from the UK to watch me play a game like my first game back after two months out with concussion then I got absolutely nailed and so that that was a clean junk you're done and then it did actually take me several months to come right and that that's a cool story as well and it's probably a good one for anyone dealing with was I wasn't getting right for like three or four months and my wife said to me look you're clearly doing something to keep you in this state to stop your brain from healing and she's a very good nutritionist and she was like right I'm taking over here you've got to be really responsible and and take personal accountability for your uh return your health return to normality and so we did things like like not just leaving the concussion the mental stuff I was having to chance and just it was like right I take a food diary something you're putting in your body is activating your brain to go certain ways and sure enough there was all these triggers like certain sorts of nuts that I was eating was just like you know sending me down like nauseousness and all brain fogs and so I just that was a massive learning for me around like that personal responsibility taking ownership of like I'm in this situation like it's up to me to do it not wait for someone else like I went to specialists around and they were just like oh you've just got to wait. You've just got it's just time and turned out that that was fine but it wasn't doing the job until I actually went right I've got to take uh control of this and determine my future it it was amazing so once I got to that point and I just come right the the coach of Leicester Tigers Richard Cockerell who's I've got a lot of time for and he's a hard man and he said look I'd like you to stay on next year and be a coach here for a couple of years. I think you'll be really good and I was like oh man gee I sort of actually gave him the up man I I've got this comedy van lined up the states are looming this you know me I'm just free spirit mate that's what I want

Choosing Stability And School Rugby

SPEAKER_00 37:02

to do and and then my wife we sat down for ages mulling it over because there's a job on the table and then there's a small camper van with a with a less than one year old and my my wife sort of seemed I will follow you anywhere but um he's obviously seen something in you for this profession which you know if you can't see it yourself he's seeing something because at this level club they wouldn't ask you unless there was something there and so she kind of convinced me mate to to give a crack and at the mate the moment I jumped into coaching I loved it. I just loved everything about it like this is like addictive. It was like man I can make a difference in people's lives and I can help them on their journey like like what you do with with professional players it's it's just this joy that comes from like seeing someone achieve what they want to achieve and helping them you know get this goal or this thing that they're reaching for and then you can be that little bit that can help them get there. It's addictive and fun and enjoyous and man I'll sell them full time like as soon as I started I was like I need more and so yeah moonlighted up the road worked eight till three at Leicester and then drove to Nottingham which was now worked like five till eight and got home at eleven every night and then did two games on a weekend I was just just in that zone and um a very supportive wife at home that just loved it. Yeah mate I I I've I I chased it hard um for the 16 years following. What were you you said you you you chased it what what did you fall in love with? Well um a massive thing that I fell in love with which is what my podcast is about is the cultural aspect and the bit which for the first two years I just dove into the X's and O's the techniques you know like how do you do this drill what is all that stuff that you you get taught in s in those sort of like if you go to a your sports coaching clinic you'll get taught this is how you pass or this is how you kick or this is how you run and all this sort of X's and O's of the techniques and I did that hard for a couple of years but then after a while I sort of thought I've kind of got enough of that like I can I can get better of course but it's only sort of like five five ten percent but then I started like discovering like if I can sort of learn how to um connect with someone if I can learn how to motivate and inspire someone man that's gonna like not only like what I've got at the moment's enough if I can inspire someone

Stay Fresh With Yearly Challenges

SPEAKER_00 39:22

it magnifies exponentially the the the techniques I'm teaching. If I can deliver it well that's gonna exponentially make the actual skill I'm teaching better. So I need to dive into that side of things and it's the softer skills of coaching the and that's what really is the the craft of coaching is the softer side the people side like we're in a people business and the more you can talk to someone like some people are brilliant. I've worked with some of the world's best coaches and some of the best the their technical stuff is just okay but what they're amazing at is making you know someone be able to do what they do know well Like they can just deliver and you just feel like obligated to them, you feel like yeah, indebted to them. Like, wow, I just need to I need to do this for this guy. I remember a coach of mine said, um, I just had a huge amount of respect for him and he he he came up with this play once and my I went and said to him, mate, I'm lifting in the line out, which is like I've got to do this job over here, and you want me to get to the other side of the field and do that job at the same time? And he goes, Yeah, you just gotta do it, mate. And because I had such respect for him, so my connection was there, I just went, I do, okay. And I did it. Now I I did it out of pure respect for that guy. And man, every time that move was called, I was like, Man, I've got to work here. And he just the the what he had done to me was put something in which made me be able to do two jobs at once. Now, in any other team, I just would have gone, that's no, you can't do that. It's not possible. But he he just the the the the the ability he had as a connector and uh in the craft of coaching he nailed was getting me to do something which I didn't think was possible. And I was like, Righto, I'm I'm in. Yeah and did it. And that's the joy of coaching for me.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Well it is. And uh before I I jump forward, I I kind of want to go back then. So that's something you felt as a player following that, or you you felt some connection that made you, like you say, want to do two jobs for for someone when they asked the almost impossible. Is that something you had as a player? Were you a captain as a player or in that leadership team as a player and you know, operated in that way?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Well, like I had no idea as a player, like as a player, you don't actually like some player, like the rare player might, but you don't understand what a coach does. You just don't know. Like as a player, you're just loving it, you turn up, right? Oh, let's do this. I've got my little work on for me individually, and let's have a run around with the team and work hard and do the down and ups and all that stuff. So you you don't really know until you're actually coaching, uh, you see the behind the scenes. It's like seeing what a director does to a movie, all the planning, all the like

Practicing Starting Again

SPEAKER_00 42:05

set building, all the you know, the props you have to make, you see all that stuff, and you go, oh, I don't I I was just turning up and and seeing all this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

And it's not yeah, I guess I'm wondering though, as a player, were you were you a vocal player? Were you that sort of oh as a natural leader, off he goes? Did that's something that just come to you naturally?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Well, I I would say like I I was asked for to be a captain of a super rugby side and um I said no. The coaches called me in and they said, We'd like you to be captain next year. And I said, no, thanks. And they're like, what are you talking about? We'd love you to be captain. And I was I I don't want to be captain. And they're like, mate, it's a great privilege. And I go, I I appreciate that. I just I just don't want to do it. And that is partly because back then I didn't know what l this leadership thing was. I didn't think I was a leader, I was just going hard at what I did and just being me. And obviously they thought that was good enough traits. Um, but I thought I had to be a certain thing, like I thought I had to be like stand up, do these rah-rah speeches, all that kind of carry on. And I didn't want a bar of it. I was like, I just want to be the best version of myself. Like I'm just here going hard. Like, like I will turn up to every training and just give it everything, all that stuff. And they're like, that's what we want you to be captained for. And I was like, yeah, but I just uh I don't want to have to do aftermath speeches, I don't want to have to do I don't want to have to go into strategy meetings, like I got no interests. And so it's kind of weird that I went as a coachman, right? But um I just didn't know. I was just a young sort of young guy that was just loved my craft and just like just let me do let me do me. I I don't want to worry about everyone else, like I'm a p yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's how I took it and it's it's cool now because you see those guys, you see those guys that don't want to be bogged down with all this other stuff, and they just want to play. And that was me. And the best coaches around saw that and just went, just let that guy play. Just say, Here's a carrot, chase that all day. Um, yeah. So mate, like it's it's a skill to learn, and but right in and flip to that too. A lot of players love that responsibility. I got mates that love it, and

Three Principles For Transition

SPEAKER_00 44:10

like it was the thing they would chase, be captain. It just wasn't my personality. I didn't I didn't want it. And now as a coach, you sort of get that you have to be because that's the job. You are the leader. And you just have to learn it. And it is a skill you can learn for absolute sure.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah, and I guess that's the I was gonna say, so you you were chasing hard the X's and O's, that got you to be a good coach, right? But you felt the culture creation was a key part of it, and you know, that leading individuals to get to do things is something that you, as I asked, you know, sort of fell in love with, and then you started chasing that. So it's an art or is it then a science? There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately suicide. And so I think it's time for to act. Every year we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life actively sport. It might be a retirement, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach to a practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career second with. Find me on Insta or to my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Yeah, it's a good question. I I believe it's an art because I don't reckon it's I don't reckon it's actually there's ways you can measure it, but I don't reckon on the whole you can measure it very well. And science needs measurements. Science is very where's the data? Give me the data, we have to measure that. But when you're talking about culture and the impact of that, it's like it's invisible, right? Like, you know, everyone says when you talk about culture, you need a good culture, but how do you measure it? It's very it's it's tough to do. There are ways, but it's tough. And and I equate it to this, mate. Like, it's like the galaxy, right? Like the stars that shine are the things you can do, the X's and O's. And scientists can measure the distance to a star. Like, because if there's a star in place and you can measure that distance, and the star's what shines. And that is like in a sport, like the X's and O's, like in rugby, how to pass, how to kick, how to tackle. That's you can you can do step by step by step, and you can yeah, it's measurable. Your special plays, all that stuff. You can measure that. What you can't measure is sort of the environmental stuff, which things. But when you look at that galaxy, the blackness that surrounds the stars is the galaxy. And there's nothing particularly there, right? And you can't measure that. However, the darker and richer that background is that surrounds the stars, what it does is actually makes the stars shine brighter. When you look up there and it's a black

Why Start A Podcast On Culture

SPEAKER_00 47:05

galaxy, it makes the stars shine brighter, it makes your star players play better, it makes all your moves work better, it makes all your drills and your training stuff better shine brighter. And the richness of the background, this galaxy that floats in behind, is the the art. How do you do it? Like, you know the galaxy's there, but you can't measure it. It's the same with your culture, it's there, it surrounds everything you do, and if you get that right, and if you're making that richer and better, it's gonna make all the like technique stuff you do, the X's and O's, so much better. If you don't, like, say for example, you have no culture, you have no black galaxy, it's white, nothing shines, you don't see any star at all. So that's the and the art of that is like it's how how do you do that? And it's it's a little bit of guff. Like, but like I'll give you an example of how how you do it. Like to start, this is what I tell a lot of my coaches that I coach with is like the first thing you do as a coach is you connect with every player that walks into your environment. Like you say, if Ryan, if you walk, if you're one of my players and you come in, I say, Hey Ryan, and I'll shake your hand or give you a knuckles or a hug, whatever it may be. Now you think, oh, what's that gonna do? But what it does do is actually makes you feel welcome. You go, oh cool, cool. Like the coach is saying hi. And then everything he's and it's a little bit of respect and a little bit of rapport, then everything you say as a coach after that lands better. Now, if I didn't do that, if I just stood there like my arms folded or at my computer designing the drill, when that player walks in and he's like, I don't know, who's this guy? And then when I say something, he's a bit like but that little handshake that I did and said, How are you, mate? How are you today? Man, it just builds something. And now everything I say after that, every X and O I do after that, lands better. And that's just sort of a start point. And then you just keep doing that. Like there's little things like those little connection pieces, they seem like immeasurable and they're not doing much, but they are, they're building their richness around what you're actually doing. And that's what I love. That's my question now, mate. I this is the craft I'm I'm chasing.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Yes, it is. And

Where To Find Ben & Closing

SPEAKER_02 49:18

I like that description. I didn't know where you were going with that. I was thinking, space stars, this is going to be interesting. Uh, I've got to hold on for this one, but it it was good. It was worth to wait. It was worth to wait. So that is that's fantastic. I like, I think especially the it was more the absence of culture means everything's there, but you can't, you you can't, you don't have the strategy, you don't have the jewels, you don't even have the players, you've just got this blanket of um whiteness, I suppose, because you haven't got this background. But you describe it as an art. And I'm interested now, I've just got to say, so how well how have you learned it? You know, you said you went hard at it. So the X's and O's that can get it, do a course, do a course, do a course. But that cultural piece, how do you go hard at that?

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Well, that is the thing, like you don't get taught that stuff. Like you you go to courses, you get taught X's and O's. You don't get taught how to build an environment. And so I've been really privileged that my I I've lived it because I've gone to places. So my my first move to Japan was my massive aha moment, and this is how it transpired. I went there and I taught a mid-level company in the top league. We were a mid-level company, and I started, I just transported everything from Leicester Tigers, which were winning everything. And I said, This is how we do it. And I started saying, This is what we do. And after a couple of months, a captain who spoke reasonable English said, Ben, this isn't this this won't work. And I was like, Trust me, I've just come from the best place in the world, this team that I've been with. And he goes, it won't work. And he goes, I I fought with him for ages. Then he said, honestly, just because it works there doesn't mean it's going to work here. And then he ripped into me. He said, You don't got no idea about uh the culture of this place, you've got no idea of the culture of this um city or this country. We've been going for thousands of years, you don't understand how we learn as a nation. You got no idea even why some of the players are actually here. You've come from a professional background, and half the team here is uh a semi-professional company team. You got no idea of this background. And I just went it was a smack in the face for me, and I because he was right, I didn't know that. I was just regurgitating a system and a structure and a structure, think like a way of playing, and I took no time to actually understand the people that are in front of me and what their motivators were and what their tickers were and what resonated with them. I was just this guy coming in from abroad that was just regurgitating, cut and pasting other stuff. And they they felt it and they were just going through the motions with me. And so then I went around, right? I have to change, I have to change. And so I went through this process of like, right, what what where am I? What is this company all about? Why are these guys here? What like I found out straight away after doing a bit of research that half of them were there just because it got them out of the office and they actually didn't really want to play, they it just meant they got an afternoon off four times a week. And so when I was trying to ride them about being professional, they couldn't give a rat. They were just like, Yeah, whatever, man. You know, like just get me out of the office. And then once you know those little things, you're like, right, I'm gonna have to change my tack on this. The way I approach these people has got to be different because the way I was doing it over here doesn't work here because it's so different. And it was the contrast between England and Japan was so stark that it smacks you in the face. But then you microcosm that down and you go, well, it's the same everywhere. Like if you go from one school in Sydney, is it different to this school in Sydney? Or the state in Australia is different to that state in Australia, it's just different for different reasons. And you've got to understand the background, and then once you know it, man, you can you can make huge or it not even just know it, if you can attempt to make an effort to know it, it goes a long, long way. Like I certainly in Japan, as soon as the guys started seeing me making an effort to understand the culture, to learn it, to rephrase it, even if I was getting it like half wrong with trying to say it in Japanese, they loved it and they bought into me and they're like, cool man, if you're gonna make that effort, I'm gonna make the effort for you. And maybe the stuff we did after that was way shitter. Like the actual stuff we were doing, I was like, this is average. But because they were now buying into me, it was actually we did better with shitter stuff. Because they just were enjoying the effort I was making. And um that was a huge learning for me, and now I'm really aware of it everywhere I go, and I I I made a point to change every few years just to experience new and having sync.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

So change, change location, change club.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Made a point. We had a policy that for 10 years we'd just change every couple years just to make sure I'm not just regurgitating the same old stuff that I'm actually forcing myself to learn this art, and it is an art, and yeah, I don't think there's any science to it.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

And the way that you've learned that is actually by embracing or living in and embracing different cultures.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yes. Yep, absolutely. Well, just I guess like just on that art thing, like you can put a bit of measurement to it. And and here's one that we did which I really loved, and it's a good one for for any sort of team, is in Japan, like they don't speak up in terms of saying their voicing their opinion too much. So we did a lot of um anonymous surveys, and I found that one of the best things for my own cultural stuff around like just asking, are we united as a team? Are we all on the same page? Do we know who we are? And you asked that at the start of this season, then the end of pre-season, then three weeks into season, then half time, on a little, you know, um anonymous survey thing. And you can see things like um with the question, are we aligned as a team? And it's steadily growing up as you go, and you go, that's cool to see. So we're building something. Well, that's a subjective thing. Are we aligned? If you ask 50 players, are we aligned, you'll get a base mark. And then if everyone's going that way, you're doing something right as a coach. If it's going the other way, you're like, right, we're we we've got some work to do here. So that adds a bit of sort of science, a bit of measurement to what sometimes you think is immeasurable.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

That's right. It can give you a direction, uh progress, um, you know, towards or away from a particular goal that you might have. Yeah, it's right. That's right. Yeah. So I'm interested then, as a as a player, you spoke about loving playing, being in your world, just getting out and enjoying it. It sounds like there's a shift as a coach that you had to do in order to not just go your way, because that was pick up Leicester, drop that in Japan, and off you go. So what did you think, in order to be successful as a coach, what did you have to change in your I guess approach to the game in order to become a successful coach?

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Look, I yeah, I I think one one of the cool things about like you hear a lot of as in the coaching industry is you've got to be authentic, you've got to be sort of real and you, and that's a massive thing. And I think that's probably the thing I've done, I like to think I've done really well, is I've always stayed very true to myself. Like part of my joy is doing things a little bit differently. And when you're talking about being able to create cultures and do different things in a team environment, I've always had the j I've always loved that side of things, and it's it's so creative, it's like there's no rules to that side of things. It's like if you're teaching someone how to pass a ball, there's certain things you have to do, right? Like you have to do fingers to the target, you have to all this mechanics which has to happen because it's the way it is. But I've always loved being a little bit creative, and certainly with culture, there's no rules to it necessarily. There's there's recommendations in the sort of our playbook potentially, but you can take that any way you want, and it can still get to where you want to go to as long as you've been you. And I I feel like that has been my steadfast bit. In the first couple of years, I would say though, the thing that I changed and noticed in myself was how much the ego plays a part in your coaching. Like you're quite defensive early on as a coach because you put a lot of work into a drill, and then someone goes, mate, this is a rubbish drill. Why are we doing this? This is this is this doesn't work, this is shit. And then you you go, no, it's not, no, it's not, no, this is awesome. We've got to keep and you and you play those games, but the big shift I tried to make relatively early is to not worry about that stuff, to just go, mate, you don't reckon it's good, right? Well, right a team, if the team doesn't reckon it's any good, then we won't do it. And I I couldn't care less. I'm not interested in my ego anymore, I'm just interested in what works for the team. So that was a coaching shift that I think all coaches have to make because when you start coaching, you want to do good and you want it to all look good and rosy, but that's not coaching. And sometimes the best sessions you have are the messiest. But when you're young, a new inexperienced coach, you want it to look good, and if it's not looking good, it's a slight on you, and you're gonna argue and be defensive. And that's where a lot of coaches stay in that zone, and they uh they they scrap players and they have a they get angry and there's something they're actually not, they're actually not that person that's gruppy and abusing people. They're not that person, but they're just staying in that ego mode where they just have to think that they're they're the man, and you've got to get yeah, gotta get out of there. That's the big learning that yeah I'm privileged that I picked up earlier by myself to get that out of the camp.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Fascinating, it really is, and you know, we talk about ego and it's one that I certainly see um in many of us as players, even if we're not egotistical as a player, when you look back as a player, you think, oh actually, yeah, I was. And you and and I think to an extent you you kind of have to be, because you have to believe that you belong on that field the same as anybody else in you know, in some shape or form. So yeah, letting that go is can be a bit of a journey to to get there.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Yeah. I like to be honest, I like I think your players is a good thing, right? Like, yeah, because uh the the ego is not a bad thing. The ego keeps you driven, it keeps you focused, it keeps you hungry, it keeps you chasing what you want to chase and you know what desire. It's it's really good. And as a player, it's different because it's just you. You're just looking after yourself primarily. If you get all your stuff right, it's gonna help the team. So just go hard on yourself, really. But when you're a coach, it's not about you. You're actually it's about the the guys, the people you're responsible for. So it's not about you. You've got to get that, that's a big shift. Like playing wise, it's all about you. Get yourself right, do everything you need to be. That helps the team. It's the opposite with coaching. Lau, it's not about you, it's about this team. And so you don't want to lose the ego. You just want to domesticate it, really. Like you you want to train it. You want it to be your you want it to be your servant, not you're not a servant to it. So, because it the Your ego has a lot of good things for professional sport. It keeps that hunger there. Yeah. And so you you've got to have a degree of it. It keeps that competitiveness there. All that stuff. So you want it, but you just want to train it to do what you want it to do, not yeah, be a servant to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Oh, like that. I like that. Um look, and I've got a few more questions. I know we've we've run we've run over. Um but I've been loving the conversation, so I completely lose track of time and then I look and I'm like, oh yeah. Um but look, um I'm interested, you know, you mentioned earlier as a the early part of your coaching career, every couple of years want to move, keep things fresh and and and going. So I'm interested then at what point did you realize, well, this is gonna stop or we need to settle here? Um was that the point where it was like, okay, well, this coaching journey in its current form, coaching these teams, traveling the world, it's gonna have to stop.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

Uh yeah. It happened last year. Um so last year was twenty twenty twenty-five, and we said, uh w we always said once our youngest of four is at primary school age, we're gonna have to make a decision. And my wife was like, she she'd given me such a long leash on that stuff, and she just the one thing she wanted was once our youngest is at primary school, let's be somewhere for 10 years and make sure that he has a good ride uh in terms of all that stuff. So it came to that point. We had to say, do we stay in Japan? We're in Japan at that time and keep the kids going here. And we said, no, let's we've got to get back to English. And we chose Sydney for that reason. There was a whole shift, uh a change of tact, right? Like it was like, Righto, well, now it's not about me anymore. Like, I'm happy to um move on to whatever's next. Um like I'll let's I'll step right out of the pro game and I'll we'll just move to Sydney. We just chose Sydney, Ryan. We just said we've we've done this a few times, we've just moved based on the lifestyle we want. We've just said, let's go here for this reason, and then we'll find something that works. So we just came to Sydney and then this amazing opportunity to to be at Newington College, which is an absolutely phenomenal school, and be in the school game, and I've never done that before, and I'm loving it. The people are awesome, so that's a big shift, and it's keeping me fresh because it's testing me in ways which like there's a whole lot of different things which I'm not used to. Um it's a it's a big shift for me in a lot of ways, and it's it's kind of fun. And I get to follow my boy along who's at the school, and it's it's an amazing journey. But but I think that concept of like we talked about at the start, where you move overseas in your early days, or you move to university, or do that, and you get this life experience. I think every time you move to a new job or new occupation or a new role, it just opens you up as a person. You meet new people, you you see different ways of doing things, new way of doing things, and you the more you do it, the more you sort of just take your time and go, okay, so right, the the way I would have done that's not going to work here. Like, like comparing a professional environment to a school environment, it's there's some massive differences there which I just had to step back from. And it was good for me just to be able to sit back and go, okay, right oh, well, this is different. That's cool. I love that. This is awesome. And like even my whole outlook now, this is about making young men at this school better versions of themselves as people. Like, like we're not chasing, you know, it's not a business like it was, you know, you're not axing people if they're not performing here. It's um it's really different. It's a great mindset to be in. And um, it's it's refreshing. And I think every move you do keeps you fresh, whatever it is. It doesn't even have to be in um in a profession, it can just be something you're doing every year. And mate, this is something I did every year as a professional player. I just picked something every year that I would do just that changed. Like, for example, I grew my beard for a year from January 1 to 31st and that was a good beard. And the whole purpose, yeah, I mean, too many, and you get treated, it's not much different when you have a beard like that. And I tell I'll tell you a fact, you get treated while you're an old man. Um but like and then and no alcohol for a year, uh read a read X amount of pages a day every year, uh eat no meat for a year, all these different things, just constantly doing something and sticking to a period of time. Like I just said a year, just for no other reason than to sounded cool, but it actually when you stick to it and you do it for that long a period of time, it actually trains you to think differently to and it keeps you fresh. And then you go, right, oh, next year here's my new challenge. I'm you know, I'm gonna get a tattoo once a month for the whole year. And you're like, oh, right, actually, I don't know if I can do that. I'm not very good with needles, but then it just so it adds a little layer to your life, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The tattoo every month for you, that's an interesting one. Uh but um, but yes, that that again is fascinating, keeping that novelty factor, but also doing it with uh I guess uh a bit of habit formation as well, and that little bit of sort of discipline that is you know forever with you, always there, um, and that that mini challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Yeah. Can can I just jump in there with something well like when you're doing when you're setting little these little goals for yourself, and this is probably a good one for players transitioning, like in I think pro sports in general, when you um are excited about some starting something again, like for for me, like growing the beard, like I was like pumped, I was like Ryan would grow my beer for yeah, and you said about you know, here's what I'm gonna do, and I just you start, it's easy because you grow, then it gets harder and harder, and there's all this trouble with it, and it gets yucky and all this stuff like this. But you finish it and you go, that was cool, what's my next challenge? And then you're you're happy to start again from ground zero, and you get used to starting something again as the rookie, as the novice, and you're learning it like go to a solstice lesson every week for a year, and then you get better and better and better, and you're like, wow, look how good I got at the end. And then when it comes to say, and the point of some of this con conversation is like when you finish your professional sporting career, you're gonna have to start again. You are starting again at something. And if you've had experience at starting again and doing that, and understanding it's just a process and it's fine and it's nothing to stress about, then you're used to it and it's not a big deal. Whereas if you've never started anything and you've just turned up and you play PlayStation every day for 10 years in your professional sports team, and then it comes and you're like, Well, what is this? Uh I have to start what I have to do at Milk Run. I have to like be the junior in this office, like blah. I'm I'm the senior here. I'm like one of the most experienced guys in this team, and I'm having to I'm having to be the like coffee boy at the office, like this is unright. And that's the trouble. Whereas if you're used to starting again every doing something all the time, go do a solcer lesson, go do learn Spanish, go do something if you're constantly practicing that skill set of learning something and starting again at the bottom, man, you get used to it, it's fun and you enjoy it and it's cool. And so when it does come for the ultimate change from professions, oh well, right up, cool, I'm used to this. Let me ask you this then.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

Have you have you shifted career? Right, like so I'll take a player as one, then a coach. Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll I'll put that demarcation there. Yeah. Today, although you're not at a pro club, you're not in the pro, you know, international game in that in that respect, have you do you feel you've shifted or transitioned careers now?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Yeah, I have. Well, I I have in a couple of ways because like I'm also doing this podcast too, like yourself, I'm here in and like I've loved craft. So that is my next sort of craft, like, because it's so different. Like, as you know, like the editing, the the troubles, the marketing, all this other stuff, which the tech stuff, like getting the right microphone, lighting, all this stuff which I just don't know. It's been fun, man. It's like, whoa, there's a whole new world out here. And you're used to when you've been at a high level of anything, you you you get used to that. But to start again and and to be good at starting again is like, yeah, cool. Like, like, I'm right, I'm a novice here. I'm gonna ask all the right, I'm just gonna ask questions, listen and work hard. And it it it's it's it's a joy. And the other aspect that I'm working at is this is a family decision to come here and do this role um from from my uh career-wise. So part of my change of role is actually like I'm gone from professional rugby where I'm away for 80 hours a week and on tour and on the road for weeks at a time, all that stuff. Don't I miss the kids up and part of my change of role now is that's not the case now. Like I'm actually here all the time, I'm with the kids, so to be a really present dad and father and a husband has been a joy, and it and I'm starting again at some of that stuff, like making the school lunches. I'm the shittest school lunchmaker, and I probably won't get much better. Um, but I I give it a crack when I'm required to do it. But um that's a joy, like that's that's the starting again, and I know that that side of things for a lot of a lot of dads, particularly when you have to go to that side of things, actually being in the family space can be a destructive influence, and to learn not to be, and to learn the ways and how you and your partner can really come together uh with a lot more time together is is a joy. And we've had ups and downs, of course, but I like to think I'm good at taking the learnings and going, right, I I won't do that again, I won't tell her uh that uh piece of information again at that time.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

At that time. Yes. Um I'll know that. Um but so but what what I hear is you you like the little things, you enjoy the detail. Like you said, you enjoy learning something new and you you take you take pride in that. Pride? I don't know if I need the word pride. Do you you enjoy learning the new bits?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

I do I do, Ryan. I think I've always been I've always enjoyed new stuff, new challenges, new opportunities, new things. So here's an example. What I've just come back from five days away with my seven-year-old. I took them away. We take our kids away every seven years, one-on-one. And so the boys on the when they're seven, they come away with me for a week. The girls go with my wife, and then at 14, it flips. So I take the girls for a week. And so I just did um, we called it the Odyssey for me and my seven-year-old, and we just we had no plan, zero plan. And we just said, on the day we left, it was like, right oh, mate, we're gonna go. I said, we're gonna go to Newcastle, what can we do on the way? We stopped at Eriktile Park, we got there, we found a place to stay, and then we read the Odyssey, the Homer's Odyssey. And then that was then we read that for an hour, and then we'd go, right oh, what are we doing tomorrow? What and we just picked a way to go. We just went drove to there. One day we got to a place and was like, actually, I I got a mate, his parents live here. Give him a call. Can we stay with you? And we had this, and what I loved about that tour, it was just like we knew we're gonna start at our house, and in six days' time we're gonna be back in our house. And that's what happened. But everything that happened along the way was just the things that unfold in front of you, all these new things, little paths, little deviations along the way, and you just if you're open to them and go, Yeah, let's do that, right? Let's let's go. And I loved it how he like he's probably gonna end up like me in that regard because we do these sort of trips, but I I I I think there's a real joy to that in anything you do. Like, say you take that same example of we're in a we're in a sports team, we're starting on this date, and we ultimately want to get to here, which is I'll win the thing. Now, however we get to that, it doesn't actually matter. Like, let's just enjoy this journey and have a good crack on the way if we get to that. Great, that is a successful year. If we don't, well, we've had an amazing journey along the way and we've done all this cool stuff which we didn't know would come. And that's exciting for me. Like, that's that's the joy of living, right? Like that's uh I I have these big resentments made around uh uh like a a nine to five and just plugging it out um and not having the element of surprise in your daily environment where yeah, you you know, but like I I think it's important like just keep that sort of element to life. Yeah, and and anything keep going and you can do it in the sporting environment if you're if you're prepared to, and any any environment if you're really prepared to.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

Yeah, let's ask that sort of um you know the the closing phase of questions really when I come to so that love of the journey that um you know if you're prepared to to keep learning, you know, that's helped you. But when you look then uh for athletes coming through now, professional athletes or at least elite performers, and they're thinking, well, what's gonna help me what's gonna help me live that life after sport best? Right? What's gonna help me to transition? From your perspective, what advice would you give to them?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

I'll give you three that that I think have served me well and and and people can take what they want of them. But I I reckon it's really important and as a professional sports person, you have a circle outside of whatever sport you're in. Like I think I think that's a good life lesson as well. Like, diversify your circles of friends, like as opposed to narrowing it down and making all into one. Like a lot of my mates that I knew, their life was rugby, and all their mates were rugby in that particular team. And when that came to an end, it sort of it wiped out their whole social life, right? Like to be open enough to know that this is gonna end, so I'm not gonna see a lot of these guys, no matter how tight you are with them now. I'll I will see a lot of them, but not all of them. So knowing that, actually making circles of friends outside of your main profession is I think it's just a good thing to do in general, but even magnified more in a sporting context, because you see those players that you're around every day in a professional setting, and you it's just that's your norm, right? And then you're gonna that's gonna stop. You're not gonna turn up and you just and if you've got no one else, then it's very hard to you hang on to what was, and you don't want to do that. You want to be able to go, okay, that period is done, that chapter's done, what's the next chapter? Oh, I'm gonna go see what my uni mates were up to, or my um church colleagues, or my um Scrabble Club buddies are doing. And the more little pockets of mates you have, the I I think it really helps that that sort of transition of stuff. I thought I'm really big on it. And I was fortunate just by happenstance that I had my uni mates, I had my schoolmates, I had all these other different mates who weren't rugby players at all. And so when I finished, they didn't give it up, they didn't care. They were like, hey, it's just normal, great, we see you more now, cool, this is awesome. And I think that's something which can be good. I think number two is is being your own measure of success and not like the ego that's sometimes with a professional sports person is it keeps you disappointed that you're not still doing it. Like, just be content in yourself, like achieve your own stuff. Like, I'm here trying my best at this. That's good enough. And you are gonna go from like sort of media stuff and name of the paper, and you're gonna be at the height of sort of your status. Who cares? Like, it do it doesn't matter, like just be your own measure, and just whilst you're playing, it's a good way to practice, I reckon, around like don't buy into all the hype and the media and always be sort of humble around this is gonna come to an end, and I am gonna be Joe Bloggs on the street, and just be open to that concept because I think that's that that's the reality um of every professional sportsman. No matter how good you are, you're gonna come, you're gonna get your status lowered. Just how much it's up. And the last one made is just that um just enjoy starting again. Like, like don't take that moment in time as to be bitter or dark or your greatest days are over. Like, go get excited about wow, what awesome opportunities are coming up for me next. I don't know, and they're gonna be tough because there's a big transition there to happen, but attack them like with a real open heart and a open mind and and excitement and and just keep telling yourself, even if it's not if you're not feeling it, keep telling yourself, mate, look this this will get there. Well, I've got mates that went on the milk run, and like I got a great buddy who actually he kept saying myself, I'm gonna own this milk run one day, but for the time being, I'm on the milk run. And I loved it. And he was just so happy to get up and he goes, I'm learning how this milk industry works, and for the next two years I'm just gonna be, you know, jumping on and off the truck, filling up tubs of milk. And sure enough, he bought that and he and he became very that was his next crowd. And uh he built them, he built them and then he yeah, bought the milk truck, then bought the the area, then did really well. And I was just like, that's uh that's the attitude when you finish. It's just that chapter close, get excited about the next one, start again.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:48

That's right, how cool. Yeah. Three great lessons. Um build your circle of build a circle of friends outside the game, be your own measure of success, enjoy starting again. I I I really like those three. And I think given the story and perspective that you brought to this conversation, it it really does resonate. You know, I think just the way that you've spoken about your journey and um what you've learned along the way is has been fantastic. And I've enjoyed learning from you during this conversation as well. It's been absolutely fantastic, bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

Thank you, Laurent. It's been an absolute pleasure, mate. What a what a joy, mate. What a joy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

It's good that we get to do this, it really is. But actually, before I let you go, one there's a question of a couple of questions just on the podcast. So you started a podcast, and and you've you've seen you've got a book out and and and that, and we'll we'll we'll come on to how people can find that and we'll we'll put it in the show notes and all of that will be there. But what made you want to start a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:45

Uh look, it was it's really just like this premise of like having my experience, like I felt like I had a pretty good grasp on what it actually works in professional environments, in fact, all environments. And I I just felt like I was in a unique position. And I was like, I wanted to share it. And like no courses taught you the cultural piece, and I knew how valuable they were, like I really did, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just you know pulling stuff out of my ass, really. And I want to make sure that this was actually the case. So I just started being privileged enough to coach with some of the very the world's best. The guys like Edie Jones was my first guest, Steve Hanson was my second, and in the rugby world, those are as big as you get, and that's just because I coached with them. And so what I wanted to do is just to make sure, like see where they took culture, and sure enough, it's the absolute piece which makes good coaches great coaches and poor coaches good coaches. So, and that's what the start was. A drive I had this little mission that I wanted um a small-town Texas coach to be able to listen and get a like be in the change room with these great coaches and to hear that how they get their cultures right and also how they get things wrong and the mistakes they've made along the way. And the coaches I've got on the podcast have been absolutely amazing around opening up about their um their mistakes and the stuff they've got wrong. Even one even called me up uh a week later and said, Hey mate, I can't let you put that in because I had a non-disclosure agreement about everything I just said, so I had to um edit a few things, but um it they've been so open around sharing, and and that's the joy of this platform is that once you start chatting to someone, it's not like if you try to chat with your mate over coffee the way we're chatting now, it just wouldn't happen. And you sort of get lost in this the spiel, and you you go deeper on stuff and you open up about stuff, and to be able to bring people into the best coaches in the world sharing their their ups and downs, man, it's what a it's a privilege. And selfishly I've learned heaps, and hence why I've written the books uh to compliment the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

Brilliant. Well up for those listening and watching who I guess want to keep learning your work, um, be it through podcasts or otherwise. Where are the best places to find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:02

Mate, the best place to find me, like if you want to reach out personally, it's it's definitely LinkedIn. I I love that platform. Um the the it's called Coaching Culture with Ben Hearing Podcast. It's on all your podcast platforms. Uh the books are on Amazon, How to Be a Great Coach, and Coaching Culture with myself Ben Hearing. Um but I I I love a message, uh Ryan, like I really enjoy it. And if so, if people want to reach out to me on the podcast or on LinkedIn, I'll definitely get back to everybody about whatever their questions may be.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

So easy. That's absolutely brilliant. Ben, listen, thanks again for joining me on the show. It's been an absolute delight. Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me, take it easy until next time.