183: Tim Stoller: The Business Lesson Athletes Learn Too Late

Ryan sits down with Tim, founder of Forged in Sport, to unpack what their research revealed after analyzing dozens of real conversations with athletes who were building businesses, thinking about it, or already deep in it.

The big takeaway: if you don’t sort your identity first, the business won’t fix it. In fact, it can make the emptiness louder.

Tim breaks down seven key insights that reshape how we should think about life after sport, especially for athletes considering entrepreneurship.

What You’ll Hear:

• Why identity comes before your business idea
• How chasing business to replace sport’s “high” leads to burnout
• The money trap: why trying to match athlete income fast can backfire
• Why perfectionism delays everything, and why “start earlier” was the most common regret
• The reality of business: ambiguity, no scoreboard, no clear rules
• The mindset shift athletes must make from “I win, you lose” to “everyone can win”
• Why athlete support often disappears when it’s needed most, and how that damages transitions
• The hidden risk of relying only on your sporting network for business advice
• Why athletes often miss key financial fundamentals like pricing, cash flow, and profit
• Why doing it alone slows progress, and how ego gets in the way of asking for help
• How defining success on your own terms changes everything after sport

Golden Nugget

If you build a business to replace sport, you will eventually burn out or feel empty, even if the business “works.” The identity work has to come first.

Want to Go Deeper?

If you are looking for career clarity for your next step, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

Transcript

Replacing The Buzz Of Sport

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What seems to happen, particularly for athletes who want to build businesses, is they are trying to replace that buzz, um, that sense of identity of sport with a business. And if you're trying to do that, it's gonna burn you out, it's going to you're gonna be doing it for the wrong motivations. A lot of people, as as I said mentioned, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people want to use their next phase to be able to earn the same amount that they were earning whilst they're an athlete. But if money is your motivator, you're gonna get you're gonna get unhappy very, very quickly. So we've spoken to, you know, in the research, there were a handful of athletes who built very, very successful businesses that felt totally empty. In the end, you know, businesses had real struggles with them because they hadn't fixed that identity bit first. So decoupling your identity from your sport is is critical, and understanding what's most important to you before you do whatever it is you're gonna do is is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Hi, I'm Ryan Godtalvis, and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after sports. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Tim, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you on here today. Thanks, Dad. Thanks for having me, Ryan. Please, pleased to be here. Yeah, and and look, I'm you know, the what what I love about the conversation we're about to have is I'm going to be learning things all the way through this. So apologies if I start geeking out at certain uh certain points, but it's always, you know, it's always refreshing to have someone who can like yourself who can come on, um, not only with what you do day to day, but also a body body of research that I think is gonna be good for us to break down over this next sort of 40, 45 minutes or so.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Perfect, sounds good. I hope I hope so what I've got is uh gonna be useful for you as well as for you and listeners.

Tim’s Path From Media To Mentoring

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Oh, listen, um I already know. Having read even just the brief, uh I think it's gonna be there's gonna be a lot to take away. But so before we sort of dive into that, just tell me a bit, sort of, you know, who are you and and what do you do, Tim?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, thanks, Ryan. So yeah, I've run my own businesses for probably about the last 10 years. Before that, I was working in the corporate world. So my background is having worked in sport associated um areas. So I worked in sport media and that kind of thing at the BBC. Um I helped launch um sports radio stations, I worked on marketing for um sports radio stations, that kind of thing. My career's taken me a an interesting path. But as I said, over the last 10 years, I've been working with entrepreneurs, I've been working with business owners, I've been working with generally small and medium-sized businesses and helping them build their business, grow, unstick the things that are tricky for them, that kind of thing. Over the last five years or so, we just happened to fall in to start working with elite athletes, which was a brilliant experience for us, and it it coincided. And I don't have much of a track record when it comes to playing sport, but I am now uh an international master's athlete. Uh, and it and I started working with elite athletes just as I was starting my my journey as a elite, at least at a master's level. And so it's been really interesting learning for me to put into practice and understand some of those things around mindset and approach that you know that elite athletes have and coupling that with how we've how we've been doing business. So so that's my background. And we we launched Forged about six months ago, because we'd happened to be working with a lot of elite athletes, we realized they needed a lot of help in this specific area, and and that's what we do.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

I think you're about athletes. We need a lot of help in many different facets. And so when you talk about this particular area, is that linking a lot of your business advisory work into this? Is that what you mean? Yeah, exactly that.

Why Athletes Need Business Help

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So fortunately, there's a lot more help around mindset transitions. There's still loads more that needs to be done. In certain areas of that athlete's life, there's plenty of help. So, you know, when you're competing, when you're playing, there's you have a whole squad around you. But when it comes to moving away from sport, what what help is there? As I said, transitioning out is so critical if you if your mindset isn't right, if you haven't got your head around it, frankly, nothing else really matters. Um but the bit that we focus on specifically because it's our area of expertise, is if you're transitioning or if you're if you're still within the sport and thinking about what comes next, or you need a parallel life, and you think that running a business is for you, that's specifically the thing we help with.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Right. So it's about that entrepreneurial edge or flair that they perhaps get a a calling or a yearning towards, and that's really where you guys come in to help take that calling into a tangible, an actual business for them.

Are You Cut Out To Found?

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, exactly. Well, well, and actually, it's probably also worth saying there are a lot of people who aren't cut out for it. So the first thing to say is, you know, a lot of people think, oh, do you know what I might want to do this and I might want to test it. Yeah, that there's kind of three things that we that we assess. The first is you know, are you cut out for this? Because there are plenty of easier ways of making money than running your own business. You know, if if money is your prime motivator, we definitely tell people to go back and have another think about it because it is hard work, you know, that you you can do it much easier other ways. So understanding what your motivation is, understanding why you're thinking about it now, and then actually checking whether your business idea is actually a business idea. Is it something you can monetize? Is it just a hobby? So even before we help anybody, we want to make sure that people are in the right space in their, you know, in the right headspace, they're in the right time of their life, and actually they've got an idea that's that they can take forward. It doesn't need to be the world's best idea, but it needs to be something that is that can be a genuine business.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

My gosh, there's gonna be so many people, even I'm thinking here myself, oh, I've got even so many uh other ideas of businesses, and there's I'm I'm sure there are loads of people thinking that. Is you talk about that being an assessment to to figure it out. Do you do you think then there's often cases? That first one is are you cut out to be an entrepreneur or run a business? What is it? I guess what types of things do you do you get a sense of to help people understand that?

Ambiguity And Infinite Games In Business

SPEAKER_01 6:59

There's a lot of talk about how well the athlete mindset and approach translates into b becoming entrepreneurial, and in many ways, it's incredibly helpful and and being an elite athlete and having gone through the resilience and the work ethic and the discipline and the measuring results and the constant feedback, all of that's fantastic, and that's generally inbuilt over the years of you know trying to get to the very top of your sport. But there's actually a lot of stuff around business that is completely different to sport. So a couple of them uh that are incredibly important. The first of which is you are perpetually living in a state of ambiguity. Okay? There's never a right or a wrong. There's no there's no scoreboard that says you're doing this right. Um there aren't really any rules. I mean, there's legal rules and there's moral rules that you set yourself, but there aren't really any rules. You know, so when you come from a sport, there's a set of rules and you could you might play on the edge. Well, they're not rules. You're you're not playing by anybody else's rules, you're playing by your own rules. And and the third thing, which again is very, very different, is business is not a I win, you lose. So sport, if I get selected, you don't. If I win, you lose. But in business, everybody can win. You know, I can win in my business, Ryan, you can win in yours. Everybody listening to this who has a business, we can all win, even if we're doing similar things. That it is an infinite world that that expands. And as an athlete, you need to get your head around that and you need to be comfortable in that. And if you're not, and you're not comfortable with the ambiguity, or you know, your your competitive drive overrides sort of any sense of being able to create value as opposed to take value, it will be very difficult for you to make a success of of yourself as a business owner.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Excellent. Love those points already. And you know, I'm going through the checklist in my mind uh and thinking, yeah, okay, I think I'm all right with some of those things. Um but one of the bits that you you touched on, it's the last one around this abundance. We we can all win. And even that I think that is a difficult concept for many to I guess take on board and and say, well, yeah, it's all right. Others can be successful. The truth is I can still be successful as well in in business alongside them.

Research Design And Data Sources

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Exactly that. And what looks good to me in my business and what looks like success for me won't be the same as for you or for anybody else. So feeling that and understanding that and and appreciating that, you know, if you're running a if you're running an elite um coaching business in a particular sport and there are 20 other people that are doing the same thing, you can all still have successful businesses in your own way. You have different motivations, different drivers, different expectations. But you know, if we've got 20 teams all competing in a league, there's only one person that's gonna, there's only one team that's gonna win. And it and it is a very, very different mindset that you need to get your head around if you're thinking, okay, business is is just for me. Yeah, business of setting up a business is the thing that I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Thinking about getting your head around this concept, you've done a body of research, and this research really I think as as you said, rather than it being a generic piece on entrepreneurs in itself, and then saying, yes, athletes, you're part of this, you flipped it the other way around and you you you spoke more to athletes and you understood their patterns. So I'm keen to break that down and go through some of those key fundamentals. But before we do that, can you can you talk a little bit about the research, um, sort of what it was and and even how it was conducted?

Seven Findings Overview

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, sure. So again, very fortunate to have had a broad career, and one of the things that I was doing when I was working at the BBC and working for their News and Sport Radio station was I did all of their audience research, so understanding who was listening, why they were listening, what they liked, what they didn't, all that kind of stuff. And I built up this network of brilliant researchers, and one of those researchers happens to have massively geeked out in this specific area of consumer research and has built this platform. So I was talking to him and said, we've got this huge body of work with athletes. We've run coaching sessions, mentoring sessions, we've helped athletes build business, we've helped athletes not build businesses, we've run group sessions, and you know, we've had hundreds and hundreds of conversations with all sorts of people. How could we use that to try and find some threads, to try and find some key scenes that would help? And that's exactly what um Alex um had built. So we basically took real life conversations with, I think we took 60 at 60 athletes. We took real life conversations and mentoring sessions and business coaching sessions and all sorts of things into his platform, and we've basically built out the research. We've interrogated and analyzed the all of that, you know, that massive body of work. So rather than it being a we're going to re- you know, we're going to do a research interview, this is real lived experiences of people in situations, and those and those athletes were global, they were in multiple sports, they were solo um founders of businesses, they were couples, they were business partners, um, they were some people that were thinking of building a business, some people who were in the middle of building, and some people who were up and running, all athletes. So we've got this, we've basically had this huge body of work. We've analyzed it. Um and from our perspective, we just wanted to understand how ultimately how we can help athletes better, how we can help national governing bodies better. And so we've we've basically come up with, I suppose, seven key insights that we think will help athletes and national governing bodies to be able to smooth that transition through from playing sport into life after sport, how those run side by side, and then if running a business is something you want to do, what are the insights in there that that will help? So that's that's what the research has done. And look, we'd be really delighted. We haven't seen anything else out there that's done anything similar. So we're just really excited about being able to share it.

Identity Before The Idea

SPEAKER_00 13:17

And I think it is wonderful in how you I suppose the data gathering approach, I think it's wonderful. And listen, I do podcasts because it's all about that natural language and understanding people, you know, talking in order to learn, or through stories we can learn. And so I really like the approach that you took to get this research. You it it's varied across sports uh disciplines and also, you know, as you've set there for it gives you that different perspectives. So you you just mentioned there sort of seven fundamentals or seven core findings that I think the language you use is um reframe how to think life after sport is currently understood. And so what I'd love to do is spend the the next little bit, if you can just sort of quickly list out what those seven points are, but then we can go through each one a little bit slowly afterwards and just sort of break that down. So, what were those seven core findings that help us to reframe how life after sport is understood?

Perfectionism Delays Progress

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, perfect. So so the seven findings are, and they might not, you know, they might not be earth-shattering in in their themselves, and they might seem fairly obvious, but actually when you put them together, you go, okay, this does help give me a really, a really clear picture. So so here they are. The first one is that your identity comes before your idea. So whatever you're going to do next, that identity piece of work is the foundation for everything. And that's you know, that's why that piece is so foundational and so so important. The second is that perfectionism slows things down. Athletes are used to trying to be perfect and it's actually a really unhelpful trait, particularly if you want to be running your own business. The third is that the support that athletes need actually disappears at the worst possible moment. So there's lots and lots of support for athletes, but it's not necessarily the right support at the right time. The fourth is that athletes have and have incredible sporting networks and they definitely help, but they fade very quickly, and they fade much faster than you anticipate. The fifth is financial basics are missing. You know, that's I I could probably look at all sorts of different um groups of people, but for athletes in particular, you know, those financial basics and that financial understanding is is not good enough currently. The fourth is sorry, the sixth is about going alone and that really slowing progress. So again, it's sort of coupled with that, you've got that network. Do you have the right people around you? And when you when you leave your sport, what what impact does that have? Um, and do you start to take on a lot for yourself? And the final thing which we touched on before is how success is defined really matters because you're used to having a very clear set of measures of success, and then suddenly you've gone into you know the civilian world and it's all up in the air. So so those are the seven key findings.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Great findings. And so, you know, now I'd love to just spend a minute or two going through those a little bit more because look, the first one, identity, comes before the idea, and you know, I think we always talk about identity, and everyone comes on here is we need this strong ego or as an athlete to to compete, to feel well, I'm I'm going to win. I'm I'm I'm I can do this. So sort of break down a bit then. What do we mean then this identity before the idea?

Support Disappears At The Worst Time

SPEAKER_01 16:49

What seems to happen, particularly for athletes who want to build businesses, is they are trying to replace that buzz, um, that sense of identity of sport with a business. Uh and if you're trying to do that, it's gonna burn you out, it's going to you're gonna be doing it for the wrong motivations. A lot of people, and as as I said mentioned, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people want to use their next phase to be able to earn the same amount that they were earning whilst they're an athlete. But if money is your motivator, you're gonna get you're gonna get unhappy very, very quickly. So we've spoken to, you know, in the research, there were a handful of athletes who built very, very successful businesses that felt totally empty. In the end, you know, businesses had real struggles with them because they hadn't fixed that identity bit first. So decoupling your identity from your sport is is critical, and understanding what's most important to you before you do whatever it is you're gonna do is is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Okay, and interesting how you see by not doing that, you might still build a successful business, but you might not be happy with it, right? So that identity is as much as you think, as you were saying there, is as much about purpose and doing or trying to do something that you will I guess that will fulfil you as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, fulfillment is the perfect word, Ryan. And and whether and actually when we when we sense check, when we do that reality check with athletes, fulfilment is a is a critical part of it. Um and if you feel empty when your life in sport has you know is coming to an end, you know, there's a lot of work that needs to be done in whatever you move into. So yeah, you know, I know a lot of your guests will talk about that, but we've seen that too, particularly amongst athletes who are found in businesses.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah. Now jumping then to the second one. Perfectionism slows things down. Doesn't it make it better when you're better?

Sporting Networks Fade And Mislead

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I would say the the single most common sort of phrase that uh we heard through the research was, I wish I'd have started earlier. And part of the reason that people don't start early is because they wanted to be perfect before they launch it. Um and so you know, setting you know, it's brilliant to have very high standards. Um, but in early stage businesses, and you'll know this, you've just got to get stuff out there. You've you know, you're gonna make a hundred mistakes, you might make them in public, but really that's that's the only way you're going to learn. Um, and so if you're trying to be perfect, you're gonna there's gonna be too much stuff going on going on in your own head. You're gonna be overthinking, you're not gonna get stuff out there in the real world. Um, and if you avoid putting ideas out there, you don't get the feedback. So progress is gonna you're gonna progress so much quicker when you kind of leave your ego at the door and you just go, I'm gonna put this out there, and what it looks like in six months or twelve months is gonna be totally different. But I'm gonna start, I'm gonna put it out there. So that perfectionism is a is a real it's a real problem, particularly when you you're super excited about something and you want to make it perfect, but you know, you can't. And and it's the same in sport, right? Is the game day, the event, the tournament is on a certain day. You're actually never gonna be perfect. You might have an injury niggle, you know, you might not have quite worked out the game plan, the team dynamics might not be quite right, but you can't stop it. And so we it's really important for us to make sure that when we talk to people, we just say, doesn't matter if it goes terribly, get it out there. That's the best research you're ever gonna get.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, well said. And yeah, you're you're quite right. I hear it a lot. To be honest, I still feel it myself at times. Sometimes it takes me ages to get out an email. It's like just just get it out. Nah, but they might read it differently. It's gotta, it's gotta try and get this essence. It's like that, it's fine. Just get on with it, it'll be good. Simple as that. Yeah. Yeah. Now the third one I thought was really intriguing, where you mentioned about um a timing of support and that that the moment where I guess it kind of disappears. Um, what what sort of findings did you did you get around that aspect?

Financial Basics Are Missing

SPEAKER_01 20:54

So what we what we found was athletes have a huge amount of support. In general, they have a huge amount of support through their playing career. You know, sports psyches, physios, strength and condition, you know, you can name hundreds of people, that support is is big. But as people start to transition out, other than mindset support, which has definitely got better, and you know, there are a lot of sort of player development managers and those roles are coming in to try and help smooth that transition. But when people need it most is actually when their support disappears, you know, if you're injured, if your contract ends, if you don't get a contract renewal, that's the time when you really need support, and actually, probably two to three years before that. So quite often there's a load of support in the game, and there's a load of support when things have gone pop and you know it's a disaster, and then you know, there are lots of people out there that will will help you with that. But what we've seen is the athletes that have have gone smoothest have found the right support all the way through. So it's it's probably something for athletes to be aware of, but it's absolutely something for national governing bodies to be aware of that they're Support needs to start earlier. That's a structural thing. It's not they don't have the intent, it's the fact that the structures aren't put in place to make it feel like a suit, a smooth and seamless transition as opposed to there's loads of help. Oh bugger, something's terrible gone wrong. We need to step in and help this person.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

And and so when you think of that, I'm thinking then of the findings, because what what's the danger of not having the support at those worst moments? What did the research uh uh help you unearth?

Don’t Go It Alone

SPEAKER_01 22:28

So again, pointing back to those athletes that have not been able to effectively decouple sport from their identity, you know, people have burnt out, people's businesses have gone hot, you know, have gone bust. You know, it's got to yeah. If you've got if you've got a little niggle, if you've got a little injury, you're gonna go and see a physio, you're gonna work it through, you're not going to go, oh, my hamstring's tight, my hamstring's tight, my hamstring's got, I'm not gonna do anything to it, and then I get a grade four tear. You know, that's just not how you would operate. Um now you might want to, you know, that there's plenty of research that says people don't want to talk about them, you know, about their injuries because they want to get selected, but park that for aside, you know, as a responsible athlete, if you've got a niggle, you're gonna deal with it early so that it doesn't become a bigger problem. Um, but the but all of the evidence suggests is that that support doesn't exist when when we've got a little niggle, you know, because I'm starting to think about my life outside sport, or actually I am starting to get injured a little bit more. Am I gonna, you know, my contract's up for a null at the end of this year, or in two years' time, you know, the Olympic cycles, you know, whatever it might be, the the support just needs to kick in earlier.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

And I guess that links into the the fourth point around expanding the network beyond sport as well. Yeah. Yeah, exactly that.

Defining Success On Your Terms

SPEAKER_01 23:47

And and interestingly, that sporting network kind of always exists. And when you need to reach out, you know, so many of the athletes that we spoke to said, yeah, when I needed to reach out to people, my network was amazing, but it's probably not quite the right network. So um, yes, they're gonna be helpful, they're gonna be helpful from a moral perspective, they potentially can help introduce you to people. But one of the things we've seen um is that athletes get terrible advice on businesses. They get people saying, Oh, this is a brilliant idea, go and do it. I know a branding agency that can help. I know somebody who can design your website or your logo, I can introduce you to these people. That's not that's not the right help. You know, we've been in business and we've been running businesses and helping people grow businesses for 25 years, and so you know, you wouldn't you wouldn't go to a sports psych to sort out your hamstring injury. You know, you have to go to get the right network, and actually those networks are great at the start, but but what athletes need to do is really think actively about who do they need? What's the what's the squad they need around them to be able to help them in their next career? Because they had a most likely had a brilliant squad of of people that were helping them in their sporting career. Be really active and proactive about who you have in and around you to help you in your in your next phase.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, and I think it it builds on you know, certainly individuals who have joined me on the show talk about you know who's in your corner and getting that supportive team. I think you've you've actually added an additional angle on there because when it comes to business and establishing a business, it's making sure you're not in an echo chamber. It's making sure you're not with the same people who were whose job was to be supportive all the time, as in you are good enough, you can make this, you're strong enough, you're fit enough, I'll fix you up. Having them say, Yeah, your business idea is awesome, it's great, it's awesome, it's gonna be successful, isn't what you that's no longer what's best for you. And so it's expanding that network, so you're moving to to one that is also knowledgeable as well as supportive.

What Needs To Change Systemically

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, it's exactly that, Ryan. And one of the key things, actually, one of the books we recommend, and I love it, it's by a guy called Rob Fitzpatrick, and it's called The Mum Test, and it is all about, you know, if you tell your mum, I've got this idea, your mum's going to be supportive and encouraging, right? Um, but that's that's the worst possible help you can have. So exactly that, you know, we tend to find that athletes have got a very supportive network around them, um, but outside sport, they don't have people just telling them how it is. With all the athletes we work with, well, one of the first questions I ask is, you know, how how do you want feedback on how we work? And they're like, just give it to me straight. You know, don't sugarcoat anything, give it to me straight. I need to know. So, so you know, you've got athletes have got that, um, have got that approach, but they just don't necessarily have the people around them that are gonna do it. So, yeah, it's it's just so important. It's just gonna help you get going faster and in the right, you know, in the right direction.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, love that. It's so true. Um now, number five is very close to my heart because it starts to talk numbers and and certainly personal finances as well. So talk to me a bit more about you know what was missing or what is missing for many athletes. There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately suicide. And so I think it's time to act. Every year we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activities for it might be a timing, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career second with. Find me on Insta or do my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.

How Findings Shaped Forged

Practical Advice For Athletes

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And I don't necessarily think it's particularly different for athletes, but again, not necessarily having been immersed in you know financial literacy because they haven't needed to be necessarily, and maybe you know, you know, agents are looking after certain things and what have you, is there's just this huge gap. There's a huge gap for athletes. Every athlete that we spoke to starting their business don't really have a key understanding of those financial basics. You know, pricing, cash flow, costs, what does a what's a profit and loss account, why is it important, you know, how how much money have I got? How quickly am I going to burn through it? What does that mean for the choices I make? You know, some of the just the most basic fundamentals that you need to be able to run a business just aren't there. Um so that's that's really just a a learning thing, but it's a learning that is not currently there. The problem with it is if you don't understand it, and this is the same for everybody, doesn't matter who you are, if you don't understand it, it's gonna add pressure and it's gonna lead to you making poor decisions. And ultimately, it's about preparation. So, you know, if you're going to go into business, you need to be prepared. If you're gonna go in and compete, you you know, make sure you do everything that gives you the best chance of success and be prepared for it. Um, so it's not really a lack of ability, it's a lack of training. Yeah, people are capable of learning it, but it's just not, I'd say it's almost not on the curriculum. So, you know, we see a lot of people. The first thing, you know, as I said, we we need to work out when they come to us with a business idea, is it gonna stack up? Is this actually just a hobby? You know, how much is it gonna cost to set this thing up? How much money have you got? Where are you gonna get that money from? When are you gonna start to break even? You know, all those basic things, Ryan, which you, you know, you've gone through, I've gone through, anybody running a business has gone through, just just trying to get athletes to be able to understand that in the simplest possible way is important. Because, you know, we're not all necessarily brilliant at maths, we're not all financially, you know, we're not all massively numerous, but you know, what we try and do is explain it in a super simple way. You know, there's so many ways you can do it, but just to be able to help people understand the f financial basics, yeah. We don't we don't want people running out of money or spending money on the wrong things. And and that that is what a lot of athletes tell us they've done.

Where To Find Resources

SPEAKER_00 30:05

And look, in terms of business, it's one of those things that you've you've got to learn. And it it's not easy. And to be honest, it's not always I guess it's not always an a thing that seems interesting to learn before you have that business idea. So it it's sort of, well, unless I know I want to run a business or moving into that type of career, then it it's like, well, I I don't need to know that. Or in fact, it's uh I don't know. I don't even know it really exists. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

And you know, if you're if you're thinking about moving into coaching, you've probably got a very well, not probably, you will have a very high level understanding of of the sport, you know, of the environment you're playing in. If you're moving into something different, you just you're you're starting as a beginner again. And that's probably the hardest thing. It's really hard when you've become yeah, when you've become you know so good at something and you're at the very, very top of your game to then go, oh I'm a beginner again. It's you know, it's a massive, massive batter on the ego, um, it's a massive dent of confidence. You have to learn things all over again that you haven't done since maybe you're in your teens. Um, and and that that can be tricky.

Closing And Credits

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Indeed, um one of my guests just recently, Ben Herring, he he did speak about one of the most important aspects of doing well in this transition or getting better outcomes is to be comfortable starting over again. And the more that you do that in your during your playing career, during the athlete career, learning new things, it means as you enter into this second phase, this second wind, you you get comfortable with, yeah, I've learning this again. Okay, but I enjoy that and I know that I can master it.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, Ben was brilliant actually. I listened to that, and just to say I'm going to become a beginner in something every year, I thought that was awesome. It's uh it's something I definitely want to bring into my life.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yes, yeah, he's a good, very good man, and uh yeah, great knowledge came from him. I I was writing down a bit like this one, I'm writing down notes to uh to improve my own performance. Um and and look, I guess I guess when it it links into uh six, you know, these things are all uh wonderfully linked in you know in terms of the research. And you you hear talking about, well, you know, don't go it alone. Um, you know, you're not gonna get faster. But as an athlete, so much of what we do as a as an athlete is considering individual performance and feeling, well, I can go and I can do this, I can go get it done. But I guess number six shines a light on that might not always be true in this in this second wind, in this phase of your life.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah, I think for very few people it's true, actually. There are you know, if you look at if you look at the some of those really famous entrepreneurs, you might go, yeah, they're they're a lone wolf, they've been able to do themselves because they're just a mega mind, you know, and frankly, they've been really lucky. But for 99% of us, going it alone is probably not the right decision. And that's not to say you can't be a solo founder, but what it's what it's saying is um you need that support network around you. You can't do everything yourself. Um, the biggest blocker actually is about ego, it's about being able to go, I don't know how to do this, or somebody else can do this better than me, so I'm going to ask them to help, or I'm going to get insight or information from them. And and it is ego that blocks that because you know, even if you're in a solo sport, you still have a team around you. Um, but um without that peer support when you move into running a business, you know, who are you bouncing ideas off? You know, that those kind of things are so important. Um, and if you want to build confidence, one of the best ways of doing that is just being able to have that team around you that can sense check and tell you you're not moving in the right direction, can course correct. You know, if you're doing it all on your own, you know, you're basically living in your own head, and that's not a great place to be if you're trying to run a business.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

No, I suppose not. And I suppose some some of that must come down to yeah, getting the right uh team and support around you, but perhaps also being open to having co-founders or you know, it it doesn't have to just be your own thing. Like, I got this gold medal by myself. It doesn't have to be I built this business by myself either.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah, and a lot of people go into um a lot of people go into business with teammates, and yeah, actually another another section that we go through is making sure you get the right squad. Um that's probably a whole that's a probably a whole other thing. But um what is very interesting at on that is you know often teammates are like we are super tight, you know, we've been to the well with each other in so many occasions, but business is really different. And so, you know, actually we we're working with um with a couple of athletes who just launched a business uh last uh last month, yeah, start of the year. You know, they were initially there's a different squad now of people that they thought they were going into business with. Um the equity splits are not exactly as as they were at the start, you know, and that was because they hadn't asked some of the fundamental questions about, you know, okay, yeah, well, we might have gone to the world, we might have been teammates, but are we right to be business partners? So that's a whole different thing. But but you know, going in with co-founders is brilliant. You know, I've I've definitely benefited from you know having co-founders as opposed to you know businesses that I've set up on my own. Um but it but it does need thinking about as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

And look, the the last one is perhaps where we started in terms of that definition of success and and winners, but how success what what is success? Another chap I had on um uh crit Dr. Chris Platt. I'm glad all these names are coming back properly for me. Um, you know, he he spoke about when an he did a wonderful study on English professional footballers, and it was looking at defining success. What does it mean when I've made it? Um what is that? Captain in your country, making pro, being semi-pro, enjoying the game. So here you talk about how success is defined after the game is is just as important, and you know, it's clearly it's an important aspect of this. So, you know, enlighten me a little bit more on that.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah, so I I we did talk about it earlier, but I think the finesse on it is, you know, Ryan, what you consider to be success for you in your business is very different to what I consider success to be in my business, you know, whether it's you know personal, whether it fits into my whether it fits into my broader life, whether it fits into my life ambitions, exactly the same for you. But we're both playing the same, we're kind of both playing the same game, right? We're running our own businesses, we're working in this field. If we were both footballers, then we know how we define sex success is did my team win or did your team win? That's very, very simple. And actually, that's sort of like getting to getting to know yourself a bit, understanding what your motivations are. Um, everybody's got different measures of success. What mine are gonna be different to yours to everybody else's. So understanding what they are, understanding what's driving you is critical. Uh, you know, and as I mentioned earlier, if it's money, go back to the drawing board because that will not sustain you because you know, okay, I've got a million, now I want five million, now I want ten million. There's something that's gonna be deeper than that. So just decoupling your mind from thinking there are standard measures of success is critical. Uh, and so you know, I can be happy at a certain level of size of my business, number of people I help, pricing that I charge, level of risk that I take to somebody who's, you know, 20 years younger, 20 years older, whatever else it might be. So it's really important. You you're running your own race here. So yes, you need other people around you, but but you have to work out what good looks like for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Fantastic. And so going through that, those are the obviously the seven core aspects that that came out. And you know, the conversation here has just helped me understand them a little bit more. When you get to the the end, the bottom line, the conclusion, what have you learnt? It's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Um I think I suppose the key thing that I've learnt is that um is that the support networks currently around athletes is is very well meaning, but it's not necessarily in the right place. And what I'm so keen to be able to do as a result of having done this research is to help be able to smooth the support networks because everyone's very well-meaning, but money is um diverted into certain areas from a national governing body perspective. Um, and I think with some tweaks to how national national governing bodies work and just greater knowledge and understanding from athletes about starting that process earlier is just going to make so many people's transitions so much smoother. You know, as you know from you know, all of those stats on on your website and those things about how many people go bust, how many people have breakdowns, you know, how many people were bankrupt. We haven't got it right yet. Uh, and I'm really passionate about helping people get it right. And whether that's running a business or not, and for most people it probably won't be that, is just being able to get that transition smoother because there's such an incredible group of you know, athletes as a group are incredibly talented, you know, incredibly driven. They can add so much value to themselves, to their communities, to the economy, you know, we're just not getting the best out of them from a society perspective. So I'm just really passionate about sharing that and you know, where we can help people, that's that's what we love to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

That's great. And I I like the part you mentioned there on as society getting the best out of athletes. We have a wonderful period where they entertain us and allow us to believe in things that appear to be unachievable for you know human body or you know, riding the car, riding the horse, whatever it might be, but all of those things we can marvel at that. I think then what you've recognised is if we can hone those same skills and help them from an entrepreneurial path or in a business path, as society we can continue to get the best from these individuals, um, you know, and can make society a better place, often purpose-driven, uh well-driven individuals who can who can help the greater good in in many respects. And so I think it's great this research unearths that it's a great learning, uh, if we say it in that way, um, to come away with this. What interests me now then is how has that shaped Forged? How has that shaped the way in which Forged in Sport is is now out in the market and helping athletes?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, it's is a great question because I started off this research thinking, okay, how can I make my business better? And I've gone, oh, there's a there's a bigger point to this. Um some of some of the points that I make, yeah, we have to look at ourselves, get stuff out there earlier, test a whole load of things, you know. Some of those points for us are really are really critical. Practically what it means is we want to help as many athletes as possible work out is you know, is this thing for them, why are they thinking about it now, and do they have a business idea that works? So we've created this, what we call a reality check, and it's free to anybody. So you can just go onto our platform and get it. So you know, I'm I don't want I don't want people to set up businesses that aren't, you know, that they're not ready for it or they don't have a business idea. That's that's not what I'm that's not what I'm about. Uh and actually some of the most rewarding conversations I've had with people has been, oh, thank you for your help. I'm not gonna start my business, but you saved me five years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in not doing it, you know. So that's a brilliant outcome for me. But practically, as I said, we've created a reality check that anybody can do. We've made the learning as accessible as possible. So, you know, money is tough for 99% of athletes, money is super tight. So, you know, coming in with you know training programs for thousands of dollars, whatever, it just doesn't work. So we've we've made the program as accessible as possible at a oh well I can just do that straight away, entry points. And then for those people that are really serious about it, we we can move them on and help them. So yeah, it's really it's really just trying to help that transition and trying to talk to people earlier. So it's great talking to athletes coming to the end of their career, but the more we can talk to academies, the more we can talk to people right in the middle of it, you know. We just think we can help those people, you know, transition, you know, something alongside and then after their after their career too.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Fantastic. Well, look, last couple of questions really is athletes coming to you. In fact, I don't know if there's a difference between athletes and associations here, but what advice or guidance do you give to individuals? You know, when you've done workshops or sat down with them one-on-one, what advice do you give to them from your experience and perhaps even from the research to help them transition better into this onto the entrepreneurial path?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Um, so as always, understand whether that entrepreneurial path is right for you. That's the first thing. Um, second thing is part your ego at the door and just get stuff out there. That's that's the fastest way of learning. Uh and the third thing is make sure you've got a squad of people around you who are going to who who are going to tell you how it is. Those are the three pieces of advice that I would give any athlete. Um and that well actually, and the fourth thing is don't be afraid to try it. You know, experimentation is is is really good. And if you try it and you go, ah, do you know what this isn't for me or it's not quite right, or oh, do you know what that hasn't worked, that's that's cool too. You know, we're either winning or we're learning. And and probably and ideally doing both.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Absolutely. Look, Tim, I've I've loved this conversation. There's going to be people watching and listening who are going to want to get in touch, follow the journey. Um, what's the best way for them to find you?

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, so um forgedinsport.com is our website. You can go on there, see what we're about. If you want to take the reality check, it's on there. So just um just just log into the platform. And the platform has got a community of like-minded people who are either have built, are building, or are thinking of building a business. That's all free. So it's just an an accessible resource to everybody. We've got mentors, we've got experts in various different areas that are going to help and do live events and all sorts of stuff. So easiest way, forgedinsport.com. Um, check us out. You can find us on all the socials too.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Tim, absolutely brilliant. Thanks for taking the time out of your morning and joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Thanks for having me, Ryan, and uh yeah, appreciate it. Love the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerese from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.