187: Carolyn Anderson - You Did Everything Right… So Why Doesn’t It Feel Like Enough?

 Sometimes the hardest part of any journey isn’t the outcome, it’s learning how to make peace with what actually happened. In this episode, we explore what it really looks like to redefine success, especially when life doesn’t unfold the way you expected. We talk about the pressure to measure everything by results, how long it can take to genuinely feel proud of your effort, and why “good enough” often lands very differently when you’re in it versus when you look back. This is a conversation about growth, perspective, and learning how to move forward without carrying the weight of what could have been. 

What we talk about in this episode:

•  Redefining success beyond outcomes and external validation 
•  Why achieving a goal doesn’t always bring immediate fulfillment 
•  The emotional aftermath of not getting the result you wanted 
•  Letting go of “should have, could have, would have” thinking 
•  How identity and purpose evolve after a major life chapter 
•  Balancing passion with a life beyond one pursuit 
•  The role of perspective in healing and moving forward 
•  Why acceptance is often a long-term process, not a quick shift 
•  How having other areas of meaning can support resilience 
•  Learning to feel proud of the journey, not just the result 

Want to Go Deeper?
If you are looking for career clarity for your next step, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

Transcript

Pride Beyond The Medal

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is the conversation I have all the time with athletes. I think definitely took some time for me to feel a sense of pride and achievement that getting to the games and competing was enough. And it it didn't have to be about, you know, being, you know, coming home with a medal. That would have been amazing. For a long time there was disappointment and beating myself up and I could have, should have, would have. But it's been a journey for me to look back and go, that was enough and it's okay. And that wasn't the plan for me. And that's all right. And I guess, you know, maybe having my career to focus on w was a part of that, you know, that as I said, I I pretty much always knew I only wanted to do one games. And I knew that I had something else to be passionate about and work towards and put my energy into. So I think that kind of helped with both, I guess. But definitely it takes it takes time when you don't get the outcome that you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Hi, I'm Ryan Godtalbert, and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite academics. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people after sports. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Caroline, welcome to the show. Great to have you on here today.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Oh, thanks, Ryan. Lovely to be here and lovely to chat.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yes, and actually this is quite unique, reasonably unique. I think a lot of the guests I have on the show around the world. And so it's good to chat with someone who's in my time zone and probably we're probably at similar energy levels given where we are at the time of day as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

So this can be a nice conversation to hopefully to have a nice uplift as we kick in towards the end of the day. And look, I was I was just commenting on your scenery, because for those who watch a lot will recognise that my background is is very plain today. And I'm just saying it's nice to see yours with the greenery. It it already gives a calming influence.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yes, well, um uh indoor plants are actually one of one of my passions and hobbies. So my whole house is quite green with indoor plants. And yeah, I was saying uh that if I I do quite a bit of work online and I do want to be able to see my plants when I'm staring at a screen, you know, sometimes at myself. So yeah, it's important to me.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah, I I like that. I I may well take you up on that, but I'll have to get the green fingers indoors randomly. Maybe a bit that we will edit out. When we say indoor plants, do you mean real indoor plants, not fake plants?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Real, yes. And they do require a lot of love and tender care. Um, yeah, I don't tend to do the fake plants, but there's nothing wrong with that if you if that's your jam.

Meet Caroline Anderson

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Um well, Caroline, before we get into more gardening tips, perhaps we do change uh topic a bit. For those who don't know you, just give us a quick introduction as to who you are and what you're up to nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Oh, well, um I'm a registered psychologist. I've been working as a psychologist for 21 years in Australia. Right now, I run a private practice in Melbourne, and our private practice focuses on performance, well-being, and mental health. And we there work with a range of different people from all different walks of life: children, adults, athletes at like a very club level, local level, all the way up to the elite level, but not just athletes, we work with professionals, we work with medical doctors who are sitting their exams or performing surgery, and I guess, or might be lawyers, leaders, CEOs, so a range of different people. Oh, it might also be uh musicians, other performers. So anyone, I guess the general theme would be who needs some assistance or support around their performance, and that the reasons why they might need that assistance could be varied. Alongside of that, I work and collaborate with a range of different organizations in the sporting world. So I work with the AIS Mental Health Referral Network, which is where athletes that are categorized in Australia get access to support through the AIS and can work individually with a psychologist. Work at the Victorian Institute of Sport, which I've been at for probably close to eight, nine years, something like that. And I work with one of our professional netball teams called the Melbourne Mavericks. There's other bits and pieces that I do, but that's probably a bit of a snapshot of where I'm at currently.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

That's a great snapshot. Is mental health and psychology something that you've always been drawn to? Or was it, you know, let's say reasonably late onset when you start, this is what I've long to do?

Finding Taekwondo Then Going Olympic

SPEAKER_00 5:03

It's a great question. I always knew I wanted to be a psychologist. Well, I can't say always, probably from late adolescence. Um I probably didn't think of that when I was, you know, five. But certainly during my adolescence, I became very interested in the human mind, human behaviour, why people do the things that they do, and and certainly in mental health. I just had an interest at the time. Uh so I always knew I wanted to do psychology. The sports and performance side sort of came a little bit secondary to that. So I happened to find a sport that I really enjoyed and I guess fell in love with at a probably again at an older age. I was probably 16, 17. And yeah, and and one thing led to another. And a few years later, I was a reserve athlete for the Sydney 2000 Olympics. And then a few years after that, I found myself competing at the 2004 uh Athens Olympics. Even back then, I still saw my career and sport as very separate, um, very separate entities. And uh I I studied I when I finished competing, when I retired, I focused fully on sort of clinical and mental health psychology for a number of years. And it was only sort of further on down the track that I kind of became interested, and one thing led to another. Sometimes the world, the universe works in strange ways, and I found my path back into sport. Uh, and so then I can combine that kind of sports background, but also, you know, psychology as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

So many questions already built in through my through my brain on that. One is the your frequency of relief happened too and led to another. You you sound very much or quite humbled in the way that you happen to find a sport that you you kind of enjoyed, and next thing you knew, you were reserved at the Olympics, and then poof, obviously for the jumped and you're gonna be Olympics. Well, so well tell me the question I was enough then is you know, say you got onto taekwondo um late. Was sport a part of your life as a child? Was it were you surrounded by athletes and been encouraged to be out and about on sport?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yes and no. You know, my family migrated from Europe. Uh, so English, I guess, was a second language when I, you know, grew up. My mum was very passionate about teaching us and exposing us to all different things here in Australia. You know, we had swimming lessons, we did tennis, like we did a bit of everything, and you know, she really wanted to give us those opportunities of trying different things. At sport at school, I loved trying different sports. I, you know, was a captain of a, you know, whatever team there might have been at the time. I just I really enjoyed it and I was okay at things and I liked being okay. I didn't really have any desires for anything other than that, other than just general interest, you know, liking sport being interest, but but I wouldn't have said I was competing at a high level, you know, in anything really, until I happened to find the sport that I really enjoyed, which was taekwondo.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

How did you come about finding taekwondo? It isn't a sport that is widely available. I believe believe it or not, I did it. Uh, and probably after I was quite older. I was a bit older, early teen perhaps when I started doing taekwondo.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

How did you find how did you find the sport?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, I reckon it found me. Um, I had been sort of interested in martial arts. I didn't quite know what I was looking for, but I was definitely experimenting. I tried a few ones that weren't for me. I was like, oh no, this is this doesn't feel right. But I certainly was at the time exploring some some different martial arts. And at my high school at the time, you could do electives for certain sports at certain times of the year. And uh Taekwondo was one of the sports, so it's my coach that I had for many, many years ended up coming to my school. And, you know, what I was attracted to was the sports side of the sport. So obviously in in Taekwondo, there's a very traditional martial arts side, which is, you know, much more about self-defense and you know, you kind of go through your belts and so on. But it was the competing and the sports side was, I think that's what I had been looking for, but didn't really know what I was looking for.

unknown 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And so you went then from being okay with being okay to finding this competitive edge that made you want to be, well, better than okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, but I think that just took a bit of time. Um, like I said, I I started it, I really loved it, I enjoyed it, but still had no aspirations other than want to give this sport a go, you know, try going into a couple of competitions. But I just, I just really loved it. And even then when I loved it, I still didn't think it was gonna, you know, anything was really gonna happen. I remember one time my coach saying, you know, in training, oh, you know, you gotta push out or you, you know, you never make the world championships. And I was like, as if I'm gonna make the world championships, like that's really he was saying it to like kind of inspire me in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Yeah, yeah, to do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And I was like, oh, that's a weird thing to say. And one day I did go to a world championships, which is pretty crazy. Um so look, I I think when I started competing regularly, then things just happened.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

It's a defining moment when you've realized, hey, I'm I'm really good at this.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Uh yeah, it probably just dawned on me slower than more competitions I did. And as I said, quite quickly, we were suddenly, you know, we had a couple of national championships, and then the next natural thing was competing for a spot on the within the wider Olympic Australian team. Yeah, I just feel like all of that happened kind of relatively quickly, I guess. And I don't know if I ever had a realisation that I was good. I just I think I was more I could, I could do this.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Interesting. And so for you, was did an aspiration appear then to be, well, I want to compete at the uh Olympics or I want to win world championships.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Was that yeah, that that became um sort of something that you really wanted to do at some point.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yes. So once once I sort of qualified for that wider um Olympic or maybe Australian team, then I was like, okay, yeah, this is what I'm gonna spend the next four or five years focusing on.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And that's what I was able to do.

Training Full Time While Studying

SPEAKER_01 11:27

And so you mentioned, you know, this was late onset in some. I say late onset, like it's I feel like that I think because my mum's in town, I'm sounding quite medical. I don't mean it in a it's not supposed to be a negative thing. But the desire came later on, as you know, as in that youth phase and development phase. Where were you from an academic and I suppose a more traditional career? Where did that fit in for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, they both uh were at the same time. So I, like I said, I had sort of sat at Taekwondo, was in year 11 or whatever at the time. I even dropped back, as I said, I wasn't taking it seriously at the time. I dropped back my sport um for year 12 because year 12 was important. I knew I wanted to get into university and study psychology. Um then at university I took it back up again. So I was training full-time and studying full-time then for the rest of my journey. And I think, yeah, I became a qualified psychologist a month, a registered psychologist a month after competing at the game. So uh yeah, the the two kind of followed the same pathway the whole way through.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

What was hard about that period, juggling taekwondo and studies?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

I mean, there's always hard bits, right? I mean, obviously you're you're doing long hours, you're juggling stuff. Um I I think I'd probably found it really advantageous for me because, and I always say this to people, you know, when I was either working full-time and training or studying full-time and training, when I was at study or work, I wasn't thinking about taekwondo, and when I was at taekwondo, I wasn't thinking about work. So for me, it was a great balance where you know either one was a stressful relief for the other. It meant that I could be fully absorbed, you know, in in whatever it was I was doing at the time, because you know, some of the it's kind of hard studying or working, but I feel like it just gave me an outlet. And it also, I mean, these are some of the themes that I that I talk about with the athletes that I work with now. It helped me keep a sense of perspective, reminder of that there's other important things in life. Not that sport isn't important, but it's not the only thing that's important. So I think that I certainly felt those things throughout my career. Not to say it wasn't there weren't difficult times navigating those spaces. Certainly I always knew I kind of knew it was advantageous for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

So I yeah, well, that actually that was gonna be my question was how aware were you at the time that it was a positive destruction rather than just say, oh I've got to get this done.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I think I was aware to some extent because I was just passionate, equally passionate about both. It wasn't that one was like, you know, that oh I'll do this because I have to. It was like I felt equally passionate about both areas. So I guess that helped me move in in those directions. There there definitely would have been moments of, you know, I came from a low-funded sport, so we got a little bit of funding to travel and do things, but it's not like we were paying getting paid a wage, which in some sports they are, not many, but they do. And I think sometimes seeing other athletes that could afford not to work because they would earn a wage, there was, you know, I'm sure there were moments where I was like, wish that was our position, you know, we're never gonna have that in our sport. Um, but I think I also recognized that it was despite that, it was still helpful.

Athlete Support Then Versus Now

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah. And as you were going through your sport and look, you you were able to see the benefits of it. Did you have what was the support around you like at that time? Did you have in fact I think back 2000, was there a um practitioner network for people to reach out to and support? No.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

The the landscape certainly looked very different back then.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I had a positive experience in in sport for sure. I think my experience at the Olympic Games was challenging for various reasons, but overall I look back and go, wow, I learned a lot, had a great, great experience. But you know, there certainly were challenges within the system. I mean, any sport has politics and bureaucracy and things. But so I I definitely don't think that a focus at the time was of athlete well-being. You know, that's come in much more in the last five to ten years. As I said, I I don't feel like I was um, you know, that that inadvertently negatively impacted me. It was just it was just obvious that that kind of wasn't the main factor d driving things really. I just don't think there was the awareness or the conversation around it.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

I think you're right. Yeah, I fully agree. I think at the time it was it was performance. We, you know, then this, you're an athlete, you're here to to come to pee, to compete, to perform, and the focus is on enhancing that with little focus on the person.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yes. So well, I mean, uh like I had a supportive family, had a supportive fa partner, still, you know, my my husband. You know, not not everyone understands sport though. And I think you can have really f s supportive friends and family around you, but they don't always really kind of know what it feels like to be in that and that position, which is why I think having professionals in that role now in in the system that we have now who really understand the context context of um sport and can provide that sport is really important.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah. You know, it is it. I think it's interesting what you said can provide that context. Do you think they need to you today jump a little bit to today? You're working across multiple sports and athletes who are in various stages based on the sport, but various stages of compensation, never mind cycle into the sport and coming out of the sport. Do you think your experience as you know in taekwondo as an Olympian, do you you know, how do you think that helps to provide context to these athletes across all of these these different disciplines?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I mean, it helps me and my understanding. I think it helps the athletes know that I understand because I've been there before. But I also don't feel like you have to have been an Olympian or an athlete to be able to understand a context and environment. I think it's if you surround yourself in that environment or you work in that environment or you're perceptive and understand, you know, the the nuance and and the complexities of of a sporting environment. I don't think you've had to have personally been there, but of course I feel like it's helpful for me. When I worked, uh it's two years ago now, I worked at an Olympic Game, so in in the Paris Olympics, uh, with the AOC as the lead psychologist. And I I definitely feel like it gave me an advantage to put my to to know exactly what that first-time Olympian's feeling, and you know, that that I can relate to that on on a professional level, but also on a personal level.

Accepting The Result After Athens

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, I I bet it did. And I do want to come back to that experience and a bit of reflection as as well. But I'm interested in coming back to your experience, and one of the bits, you know, so this this show is about finding that career clarity and managing that transition. At what point in your athletic career did you start to think, hold on, that that's gonna have to drop down now and I'm going to have to up the more traditional career path?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Um, again, I I feel like I've I'm just very lucky in that um I only ever wanted I didn't have aspirations to get going for another Olympics and another Olympics and another Olympics. I felt kind of pretty lucky to have gotten to one. It you know, I I always kind of like knew from an age perspective, look, that's a good age. I achieved what I wanted to achieve. Well, you know, got to the games, probably could have uh performed better, but that's okay. Um like that was How was that okay?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

How how was it okay to to make it to the games, but then the performance not meet where you want it to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

20 years of what you know, 20 years to come to terms with it. No. Um you know, it it is hard. And and again, this is the conversation I have all the time with athletes. I think definitely took some time for me to feel a sense of pride and achievement that getting to the games and competing was enough. And it it didn't have to be about, you know, being, you know, coming home with a medal. That would have been amazing. For a long time there was disappointment and beating myself up, and I could have, should have, would have. But uh it's been a journey for me to to look back and go, that was enough and it's okay, and that wasn't the plan for me, and that's all right. And I guess, you know, maybe having my career to focus on w was a part of that, you know. That as I said, I I pretty much always knew I only wanted to to do one games, and I knew that I had something else to be passionate about and work towards and put my energy into. So I think that kind of helped with both, I guess. But definitely it takes it takes time when you don't get the outcome that you want.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah. Have you ever darted the career that you're in now? Did you ever think actually maybe I should do something else instead?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Oh yeah, sometimes I fantasize about, you know, all the things that maybe be a bit less stressful in life. No. Look, not no. I I couldn't I couldn't imagine myself being anywhere else. No. I I think I'm again, I'm very lucky in in the you know, the way in which my career has gone, where I've ended up, I have amazing job opportunities. Oh, I'm very thankful for where I am. And uh, you know, there's like with anything that are challenging, but I feel pretty lucky where I am.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And so when you stopped being an athlete and all this being in the Australia team and competing at that level, were you focused then? And I'm interested on how you perhaps built the confidence to become good at actually maybe you're always good at, you know, running a practice and and sort of being in that environment. I'm interested, how did you build your confidence there when it became the only thing? Because y you were pretty much doing two things all this time, and then one dropped off.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, okay. Have you ever heard of the Kruger Dunning effect? I have, but the Kruger Dunning effect says and we can talk about it from a career perspective. There's many kind of applications, but from a career perspective, it's like often when you start your career, you're almost like more confident. And the more you go down that path where you kind of realize. How much you don't know. It's like for that, you don't know how much you don't know. It's like, oh yeah, I've finished, I've graduated, I've worked for a couple of years. I feel like I had that moment when, you know, finishing in sport and focusing on my career, I was like, look, I've I'm okay. I I know what I'm doing, but there's still so much I actually don't know. And the next 20 years are kind of the trajectory back up of like psychology is complex. I feel like you can never stop learning. I may maybe that's why I love it so much. I I don't think I'm ever going to get to the spot of feeling, you know, and I talk to a lot of athletes about this term confidence, but we can get there. But I don't think I'm ever going to get to the point of like, I know everything, I'm amazing. I I think it's an ongoing, like we it's just a never-ending journey of knowledge and information.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

It is, and and it's interesting you you brought up that as a as a framework and you know, often explained as known knowns and unknown knowns and that type of impact in the in a when you apply it across multiple areas. But it sounds like you are okay with that. So you're going from a part of what you were doing as an athlete, you were in well how many how many competed at the Olympics? How many are in the in your world class?

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Oh, 16, top 16 in the world, I think.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

There we go. Yeah, so it's like so you're the top 16 in the world. Yeah, it's like is it 32? 32.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

I can't remember it too long ago.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

But you know what? Out of seven billion, let's say there's seven billion people in the world you come in in, you're the top sixteenth in the world, right? There's not much more to learn about that sport. The mastery is percentage-wise, pretty much really close. But then you're going into an environment where suddenly you're realizing how much you don't know. Again, and it's been well, I've just been the best in the world doing that, representing my country at a sport. And now here I am feeling I don't know anywhere near enough because we're realising there's more that we don't know. How comfortable were you with that? That sense of starting again. There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately suicide. And so I think it's time for it. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activity sports. This might be a retiring, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career secondwind. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

How comfortable was I? I think there's definite um moments of imposter syndrome, regardless, right? Of like, oh my god, I actually don't know what I'm doing. But I feel like that oscillates, you know, and it probably was the same, even in Taekwondo. I had moments of what am I doing here at the Olympic Games? I don't deserve to be here, rah-rah, rah. You know, I definitely am someone that has doubts. I think that's pretty normal. But I probably utilize curiosity, openness, you know, vulnerability to be able to manage that, to acknowledge when I don't know something or to acknowledge the struggle or the challenge, to continue to be curious, to, as I said, learn. Like I always happy to read books, to take on more information, do more professional development, have supervision. Like there's a lot, I guess, in our in our field that we do to help navigate the I don't know's.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, wonderful. And I like the way we've you sort of teethed in there, some of the, I guess, values or behaviors around curiosity and openness and being okay, being vulnerable. I think that that's right because I know a lot of athletes when we think of, and actually, I'm even thinking of an executive that I'm working with, and one of the challenges that that they face is I might have to start again, they might have to look at something completely new. Am I ready for that? And I went to one class and I realised I didn't know anything. That's okay. Which is sort of what you're just talking through there as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Absolutely. Yeah.

Taking A Clean Break From Sport

SPEAKER_01 26:34

So for you coming into the career, left sport behind from a competition perspective, it sounds like though, from your certainly the early practice, you were not involved in sport. No. You were working typically in the field. Was that how intentional was that?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Very intentional. I needed a break from sport. I um I didn't, as I said, I I didn't know this is where I would end up at the time. Um, no, I I I I absolutely needed a break, and I think it was the best thing for me to sort of really step. I think if I had of you know gone straight into sport, I I think that would trend that would have just been too challenging for me. So I did need a break. I needed to step outside. I needed to, you know, really hone in on my skills as a psychologist, as I said, working in mental health and clinical settings. And I just feel like that is what gave me the foundation to then navigate and come back in back into sport when I felt probably ready.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

There we go. So you felt ready to come back into sport, and yeah.

ACT And Psychological Flexibility

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Did it come did sport come knocking, or did you start spinning around again and like it was about 12 years ago, fift 15, 12 years ago, something like that. I feel like it was just a natural step-by-step thing. It was a little bit probably me being ready. You know, if I was working in private practice, someone might say, Oh, you used to be an athlete, do you want to work with this person on their mental health? And I'll be like, Oh yeah, sure. And then I think I started training about 15 years ago in a different uh approach, which in a different model of working, which is called acceptance and commitment therapy. And when I started training in this a long time ago, I did have a bit of a light bulb moment of like, wow, this is quite different to what we call traditional CBT, traditional cognitive behavioural therapy. And there was this sort of realization of I guess what was kind of around at the time when I was an athlete in the performance psychology space had changed a lot. Well, it probably just wasn't very helpful at the time for me. I couldn't relate a lot to it. And it was when I started learning about these newer, broader techniques, I realized that that was something that could have been beneficial to me and therefore potentially would be beneficial for other athletes.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

How so?

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Okay, so you can get a little bit into the nitty-gritty here. Um Let's do it. Let's do it. I guess maybe an an older way or a different way of tr traditional sports psychology would be things like uh what we call mental training. So, and these are all going to be very familiar to you, but obviously there's things like visualization and goal setting, no worries, that's fine. But then we get into things like positive thinking or positive self-talk, again, something that most people kind of go, Oh, yeah, that sounds like a something that we do in sports psychology, you know, trying to reduce arousal level, use relaxation to, you know, basically try to manage the natural normal stress response. I used to feel anxious as an athlete, you know, again, I think that's pretty normal to have your heart pounding, you know, to f feel worry about what's going to happen, anticipation. And I would try those things, and maybe they work temporarily, but they certainly didn't like stop it or make it go away. And my interpretation of that was like, oh, I must be doing something wrong. What's wrong with me? No one else is anxious, oh my God. As I said, and this is what I think has happened over many, many years in the system, where those sort of traditional ideas probably aren't always effective for various reasons. This new approach is much more about rather than trying to change or control how we feel, it's working with how we feel, probably at a at a really broader sense or being a bit more flexible and adaptable. I guess we call it sort of psychological flexibility around how do we actually manage our emotions. It's not as simple as like, okay, I'm just going to stop being anxious by doing some deep breathing techniques. Like that might help, but we don't get the button that turns emotions on and off. And if we don't get the button, then maybe we just need to stop pretending or acting or thinking that we should be able to control our emotions. Likewise, with our thinking, I would argue that it's pretty normal and adaptive to have worries, doubts, you know, things that come into our head. It's not about trying to replace those thoughts or necessarily stop those thoughts. I think it's about how we respond to those thoughts. So there's it's a very different approach. And certainly as I started, as I said, to research and start to work in this space, I saw that there was a real, I guess, gap in sports. Now, as I had come across this uh approach, obviously people started to research it. So now we have lots of, you know, evidence-based and research that this is an effective methodology in approaching, you know, human performance. I guess it was this was kind of early on in the piece.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah, and it is really fascinating because you talk about the the button. And I always remember as a young player being told that I'm not a tap. You can't turn it on and off. So we can't just say, yeah, now you're in this mode and this is how you should feel. Okay, turn it off and be something completely different. Um, even in the same game, never mind at home versus competing. And so as I hear you explaining this acceptance of how I feel, never mind the performance part, but actually being accepting of that emotion and leaning into the fear and saying, break when I feel fear, um what should I do rather than completely lock it off and ignore me? So what's the second part of that? You talk then about that acceptance of feeling. What's the what's the commitment part? What do you do then?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Great, great question. Um gosh, I feel like I could talk for like two hours now, but I won't. I'll try to be sufficient in my answer. So I'll just go back one step. Why are we accepting fear? Well, because to do hard things, you know, if you want to sit on the couch, you probably won't feel much fear. If you want to go and do things that are important and meaningful to you, fear is a natural consequence of those things, whether it's fear, nerves, anxiety, however you want to describe it. Majority of the time, you know, that nervous system response, so our activation of our sympathetic nervous system is actually pretty beneficial for sport, right? It doesn't feel very comfortable and your heart's pounding out of your chest or you feel nauseous, but really it is an adaptive response that is going to help harness your energy or save energy where you don't need it because your body is reacting to threats. When you start to interpret that differently, you can understand that it might not feel comfortable, but it's not harmful for performance. I think that's really where the magic happens. Most people believe that it's harmful for performance. What's harmful for performance is if you're battling with that feeling of fear, you're thinking that it's bad, it's wrong, it's predictive of things that they're gonna go bad. Now you're distracted, now your focus is elsewhere, now you're you've already lost the match, right? Not because of anxiety, but because of your response to anxiety. Yeah. So, okay, in terms of what to do next, once you've really understood that we can learn to harness and utilize, you know, what whatever feelings are showing up for us, it frees us up to, I guess, focus on what are we here for. And we've already talked a little bit about outcome, you know, stuff. It's very easy to get caught up in the outcome, you know, or the things that can go wrong, or the gold medal, or whatever it is. Really, that's uh, I don't know, it's kind of a waste of time and a distraction, right? We can acknowledge that we want to do well, but focusing on that outcome again is going to be something that distracts us cognitively. So the the answer then isn't just to think positive, right? Like again, that that's just as much as a distraction and unnecessary and unhelpful. The answer is really, I think, how do we focus in on the process? How do we focus in on being present? And how do we focus in on what truly matters in this moment? It's, you know, it's not about winning or losing. It's about what you're learning, it's about why you're there, it's about why you do the sport in the first place. And that is it's very easy to lose sight of that under pressure in the heat and open when there's a crowd, you know, thousands of people watching, whatever it is. But I think that they're just some of the and I guess the commitment part is committing to the behaviors that you know are ultimately going to bring you closer to what you want, even when those behaviours are challenging or difficult.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yes. And then it's I guess a confidence piece to to feel practice comes in. Perhaps I've done this before, I've had this feeling before. And when I feel like this, these have been some of the behaviors or actions that have helped me to manage it in order to perform, without, as you say, being destructive in, you know, destructive in the same in in terms of the performance and the competing side.

The Confidence Trap Explained

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, I think definitely being able to practice the skills, it's not just about doing it in the one moment of a competition. It's like I talked to you know, athletes about how do we practice this stuff completely separate from training as an example, or yes, how do we bring it into training? You said something about confidence. Yeah, you know, we can feel a bit more confident after the fact. But I actually I tend to err on the side of caution of even using that word. I think we're very focused on Tell me more. Yeah, sorry. Um no, no.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Well, that's it. Please go, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Tell us, tell me, confidence.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Confidence. I think it's really overused in sport. It feels like when I ask most athletes, if I just ask them what's important in sport, yeah, what helps you perform at the best? 90%, 95% of athletes will go confidence. That's their first answer. Now, why do they say that? We've kind of been taught that it's a conversation, you know, coaches, parents, we we kind of are bombarded with these messages of you've got to be confident, right? I feel like, again, I feel like that was around when I was uh an athlete many years ago. And I feel like the conversation hasn't really shifted a lot since then. The problem is, again, can you just make yourself confident? Can you turn it on and off? And so again, that the conversation is well, if it's not something I can influence confidence, maybe if you want to look at it in those terms by what I do over time. But I would just argue that confidence, like any emotion, fluctuates. Happiness fluctuates, sadness fluctuates. I don't feel sad all the time, but occasionally I feel sad. I don't feel happy all the time, but I do definitely feel happy. I think most athletes, well, I know actually, well, don't know all athletes, but the athletes certainly that I work with over the last 10, 15 years, if I ask them about, you know, are there times when you feel confident, they're like, of course I do. But do they feel confident as a stable factor that never fluctuates? Absolutely not. Something bad happens, a coach says something, you wake up in the morning feeling crappy, your confidence goes down. Yeah. That's what emotions do. They fluctuate. Um, so where the problem lies is that when people attribute confidence to an outcome or performance, so a lot of the time they might, an athlete might think, well, okay, there was this race and I was feeling really good, and I was feeling really confident, and then I performed well. And then I had this other race and I was feeling terrible and not confident, and then I performed really bad. And so they kind of come up with this neat little formula that says, when I feel good, I perform bad, uh good, and when I feel bad, I perform bad. But really, if we extrapolate that out, there's probably more conditions, which is that you can feel really confident and really great and have a terrible game, and then you can have a you can wake up terrible and not confident and you can go out and have a great game. And it's because how you feel isn't predictive of performance, it's behaviour, actions, and attention that's going to influence performance.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

So, like I said, it's much more about how we're responding to the emotion than the emotion itself.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

I love the refinement. I mean, I really do, because what you're well, I was using the confidence and I slap myself on the wrist and it it it but because mainly because it it's used the way I used it as well was probably too many things.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

And so as a result, what you're really saying is no, no, no, go deeper with that response and say, right, well, what is it you're doing? Because I believe confidence is a uh is almost a reflective feeling, meaning it's you build confidence by doing. Yeah. So you look back and say, yes, and why? Because these things lined up and this happens. Therefore, confidence comes through. So I I I love the refinement and breaking it down and saying, well, I agree that it comes after.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

The only thing I would I'm not saying we do never feel confident, like we do. The only thing is, even if it comes after, I think again, another trap is they go, Well, okay, I won, I did really well, I got that result, now I feel confident. But the confidence then doesn't last either, right? Like it then doesn't mean it the next competition they're gonna and I but I think the expectation is that it will. So if I go to a concert and I have an amazing time and I'm on this high and I feel really great, and I'm like, oh, that was the best night. I I might feel like that for a day or maybe two days or even three days, but after that it fades. Yeah. I I can remember and I can go, yeah, that was a really great experience and I had a great time, but I don't feel it anymore. Yeah. And I do think that confidence is a little bit like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

I like it. See, I've got a lot to think about. This is this is great. But I'll be like this, it it's good because it gets us thinking, and that there is there is something that I, you know, talk about in terms of what clarity brings. And a lot of the podcast itself is called career clarity. And often one of those aspects that that I would talk about is building a cop building confidence, building a sense of actions from finding this clarity. And now you're gonna it's great. I have to rethink a whole page of what I mean by this word now. You've you've really got it. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

But but I guess you know, on some level it's semantics or like it's a word and it probably means different things. I guess, yes, I'm using it very specifically because I've seen the traps that athletes fall into, and that I definitely fell into back then as well. Like, like I said, you know, my coach would be like, right, go out there, be confident. I was like, well, I don't feel confident. How do I do that? Now I feel worse because I don't pay you to kill.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

This is great. It's it's kind of a confidence trap. And in some respects, right? It it's it's recognizing that and saying, okay, well, let's break it down. Don't don't just say the word, break that, break that down into something that can help you move forward.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

I love that. Yes. Because yeah, maybe people are using it in a different way, or what does it mean? You know, there's nuance, you know, within it. We can't just have these kind of like broad, maybe statements that aren't always going to be accurate. And I I just see, as I said, that I I think it can impact on people when it it's sort of in this broad expectations around it and how people should feel.

The Overdoing Trap And Burnout

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, I think that's great. I like that. So, well, listen, we're we we're coming to the end of this particular conversation, but I feel I'm I'm going to be picking the phone up to you again and saying, okay, let's break this down a little bit more. But um, but as as you as you work with individuals, and I guess I'm going across not just athletes, but I think individuals that you might work with who are striving for a change in their in their life. And I'm I suppose I'm cutting it more from a more from a positive perspective rather than a specific negative or traumatic experience, because you know, I don't want to step into where I really have no idea. How do you what are the key things that you recognise people need or what are the com well, we just use the word trap. What are the common traps that people fall into when they're trying to enact change? And how do you help them through it?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Love it. Uh when I hear the word trap, the first thing that springs to mind is overworking, overtraining, over over, overdoing, doing more, you know, of like a lot of the time, very motivated people believe the formula is just work harder and I'll get there. Now, I'm certainly not saying you don't have to work hard. In, you know, pretty much every domain you have to work hard. It's that people probably view working hard, doing more, training more as the only solution rather than looking very holistically at what is actually going to get the best out of themselves. So the trap that I see is people doing that for many years and then getting burnt out, unwell, injured, mentally exhausted, whatever you want to call it, because they're stuck in this vicious cycle of doing more, doing more, doing more. I don't think people are very good at resting. They're not very good at, you know, but I think from an athlete's perspective, they're probably better at physical recovery. Like we're pretty good at that in sport. But Mental recovery or actual learning how to switch off, whether it's in the corporate sector or in in sport, I don't think people are as good at where we really um probably focus on productivity in society where you know productivity being busy is rewarded. And I think people don't don't know how to do this anymore. So how to get better without relying on just working harder, doing more, working longer hours, I think is one of the biggest straps that I see.

A Kids Book On Nervous Energy

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Yes, I've just finished listening to slow productivity. Oh and yeah, and I'm and I'm kind of there with you in terms of pace and how we measure success and what we think for for ourselves as well. So I think that listen, that that is something that I find really useful. You know, what you talk about there is actually sometimes things might be simple, but it doesn't mean it's easy. So it still might be hard work. Yes. Right and getting through the steps are laid out, but it's hard work to get through those gates. And yeah, and which I I think is something very positive for everyone who is listening, watching to take away. So listen, Caroline, I want to say massive thanks for sharing your perspective with me. I've certainly taken away a lot, and I'm sure those listening and watching have done as well. Um if they want to get in touch or follow your journey, where's the best place to go?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Oh, um, you can start with our website, uh performanceeded psychology.com. You can follow me on socials, which is something along the lines of performance-edge-sychology or Caroline Anderson Psychologist. I think I have an Instagram account with that on it. Yeah, happy to connect that way. I also have a book for sale if people are interested. So it's a children's book. It is uh oh, I can We didn't even touch on that.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

I know you got the you got a bottle camera. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Um it's available on my website uh or on Amazon. It's called Jet Secret Strength, How Nerves Became His Superpower. Um it's aimed at children and their parents, sort of age probably eight to twelve. It's got like activities and sort of tells the story of a young boy, he's a soccer player who actually gets very nervous and how he learned he learns how to turn those nerves into a superpower. A lot of kind of what we've talked about today is covered in the book.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yes, it is. And I must admit, I was reading a synopsis on it. And one, I was like, why football? Because obviously that's my sport. Yeah, I think I love that. And and and two, what was your inspiration for the book? So I know we're just at the end, but I'm gonna ask those anyway.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Um, why soccer? I don't know. It was just, I think, a sport that came to mind that I think, you know, uh worldwide people love and enjoy. And um at the time my son was playing a bit of soccer, so I just chose soccer or football as you would say. And the inspiration was look, I I work with a lot of our clinic, we work with a lot of these young athletes, and I think there's some very simple messages that hopefully are helpful for people. And when young kids learn some of this stuff early on, even when they're just playing, you know, rec, you know, football or um, you know, sport for fun, I actually think it can help them stay in sport for longer because they learn how to navigate some of the challenges that come up. It's not saying that, you know, young people are elite athletes. That's not what it's about. It's just about how do we help young kids enjoy, you know, what they're doing more so that more kids stay in sport.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Because I think that's we're losing that sense at times and over, well, professionalizing, therefore over-professionalizing children and ruining just the pure enjoyment of sport.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah, and and for them it should just be about their their passion and joy and fun. And I I hope that the book helps them find that.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Yeah, wonderful. We can talk even more about that, but in due course. So but listen, Caroline, I want to say thanks once more for joining me on the show. Absolutely loved our conversation.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Oh, thanks, Ryan. I um I loved some of your questioning. I'm not actually don't actually talk about myself a lot in my past. I've forgotten a lot of things about what it was like to be an athlete. It was a very long time ago. Um, but yeah, I appreciate uh your questions. They were definitely thought-provoking. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.