Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
Former professional footballer Ryan Gonsalves dives deep into the unique challenges and triumphs of transitioning from elite sports to fulfilling careers. Through candid conversations with athletes, the Career Clarity Podcast explores their inspiring journeys, uncovering lessons on identity, resilience, and reinvention. Whether you're an athlete or simply seeking inspiration for your next chapter, this podcast will empower you to unleash your second wind.
Ryan Gonsalves transitioned from professional football with Huddersfield Town in the English Footbaal League, to a career in financial services by leveraging his adaptability, transferable skills, and willingness to embrace new opportunities.
While playing semi-professional football, he pursued education and began working at GE Money Capital Bank, where he gained global experience and developed expertise in Lean Six Sigma and process improvement. His sports background often helped him stand out during interviews, creating memorable connections with hiring managers.
Later, Ryan joined HSBC in Hong Kong, where he worked for nearly a decade in consumer banking, focusing on global projects such as researching homeownership behaviors. His ability to understand consumer insights and behavior became a cornerstone of his success in the financial sector. After over 20 years in banking (including back in Australia at AMP, Westpac, COmmenwealth Bank and NSW Treasury, Ryan transitioned into career coaching, inspired by helping fellow athletes navigate their post-sports careers.
Ready to take the next step? Connect with Ryan at letschat@2ndwind.io.
Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves
189: Josh Allan - From Yorkshire to Toronto: How Sport Can Shape Your Life and Career
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Josh Allan thought he had it figured out.
He was fast. Really fast.
Running national-level 400m times.
Training with some of the best athletes in the country.
But deep down, he knew something most athletes avoid admitting.
This wasn’t going to be his career.
In this episode, Ryan sits down with Josh Allan, now Head Coach of Men’s Rugby at the University of Toronto, to unpack the real decisions behind leaving one path… and choosing another.
From growing up in Halifax and playing multiple sports at a high level, to representing at national level in both rugby and athletics, Josh shares what it actually looks like when you’re good at everything… but forced to choose one thing.
And more importantly, what happens when none of those paths turn into the future you imagined.
What You’ll Hear in This Episode
- Why being talented at multiple sports can actually make decisions harder
- The moment Josh realized track wasn’t going to be his career
- What it really takes to “go all in”… and why most people don’t
- Walking away from elite rugby pathways and what that felt like
- The reality behind the “3%” who make it professionally
- How he ended up moving to Chicago with no real plan
- Why sport became his gateway into life, not his destination
- Building confidence through coaching, gyms, and personal training
- The identity shift every athlete has to face
- What he now tells 18-year-olds who think they’re going pro
This episode isn’t about success in the traditional sense.
It’s about awareness.
Josh knew early on that continuing down a path just because he could… didn’t mean he should.
And that honesty changed everything.
From stepping away from track after hitting a ceiling, to returning to rugby, to eventually realizing sport wasn’t going to be the end goal, this is a story about making decisions before life forces them on you.
It’s also a reminder that just because something doesn’t become your career… doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth it.
Want to go deeper?
If you are looking for career clarity for your next step, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.
Cold Open On Track And Rugby
SPEAKER_01I just wonder how quick I could go. And national finals were great. I was in that same circle. I was training with some really great athletes. I was being in the groups that I should be in. I went to an a national training group in Birmingham with the best 400 meter runners in the country. And I was hanging in the session. And I was like, I could do this. I didn't really think this is my career. I knew that wasn't my career. I wasn't going to go and race for Great Britain and I wasn't going to the Olympics. And I wasn't going to make my money from it. I just really wanted to see how far I could push it. And as the time went on, I ran 48-4, and then it probably ran at another few 48s. And I was like, unless I change everything, I'm going to have to lose a bunch of weight. I'm going to have to train like a pro and buy all in. Then I won't reach anything that's going to make sense here. So that's when I went back to rugby.
Why Athlete Transitions Matter
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Ryan Gun Salvador, and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people active. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Josh, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Good to have you on here today. Thanks for having me. Thanks for sorting out the time difference and getting me in.
SPEAKER_00It's all good. It is the beauty of uh some of these conversations. I'm always keen to chat and I'm like just trying to figure out what works out best. So I'm glad we've we've made some work to jump on the call again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All good. It's been a while since we caught up, and it's been me trying to get you on this show as well. Um for those watching and listening, just give us a big quick intro as to who you are and sort of what you're up to primarily nowadays.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Josh Allen, the original not Buffalo Bills quarterback. And I played a little bit of rugby in my past, and I'm now the head coach of men's rugby at the University of Toronto here in Toronto. I'm obviously English, so started there, moved across to the US, Chicago, and then moved up to Toronto and have have been coaching sort of everywhere I've been after a bit of a career. And separate to that, I'm in the fitness and wellness game. So running gyms, personal training teams, uh seeing how we can sort of grow revenue, especially through personal training. I think that's right. Really a great add-on. And yes, that's where we're at. We're we're wellness, half wellness. We are half coaching rugby.
SPEAKER_00Which is brilliant.
Opening A CrossFit Gym In Chicago
SPEAKER_00And I think what I'm really looking forward to in the chat, and then you know, as we've been speaking, is I think I get a lot of athletes that I speak to who think, well, maybe I'll go in PT, maybe I'll go into the gym industry and the stuff like that almost as a path. So I am keen to sort of break down your path into that world, which was perhaps less intentional than you know, and sort of that than everyone thinks. I should have said less directive, I suppose, because it was sort of a journey for you to get into that area, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I went sort of the long way around, as I'm sure I and like as I'm sure we all do. Yeah. And I'm and I'm sure it's a similar story for every athlete you get on, they're like, oh, this is it. I'm pro, I'm 17 years old, this is the rest of my career. So I stepped back from school, and then your career does what your career does, and and things move and change. And I moved to Chicago at 20, and me and a group of guys got into it, it was around the time CrossFit was really hot, and these three guys were like, let's open a gym. And I was like, I have got no money, but I will work there, I will grind my way into whatever you need me to. And between the four of us, three great guys of Chicago, and we grew this little CrossFit gym into honestly, it's such a great gym, great community, great people. So that was sort of my first wellness step, fitness step. So teaching, taking some ownership, working my way into a into the manager and running the place, and then moved up here to Toronto and worked construction. So again, this is probably where Schoolmire helped. But I jumped up here and I was like, oh, what do I know? What can I do physically day one? And I was a British carpenter back at home. So I was like, I I know I'd swing a hammer, draw some holes. Went through that process and then through a friend, got asked to visit an Equinox here in Toronto just to have a look around. I was very curious and walked in. What's the Equinox? Oh, okay, yeah. So Equinox is probably one of your top three chains here in America. Their home base is New York, but they've clubs all around the country. Uh, they've clubs in London, and then they're looking actually in the Middle East to open up a big super club out there. And it's very premium, it's very luxury, it's very reputable. So again, what walked in just expecting to sort of have a look at the place, sat down with somebody and they were like, look, would you could be interested in working here? I've kind of been a personal trainer, I've done the training one-on-one stuff, and I'm looking for sort of something to get my teeth into, sort of career-wise. Yeah. And it ended up being that they were looking for me to uh manage their personal training team. I had enough experience through the my gym, and I think the sport helps, you know. Like I've been coaching since I was probably 13. So I've been dealing with groups of people constantly for 10 years up to that point, 15 years. So sat down, did the interview, very rigorous interview. I will tell you that. Like, if anybody's out there going, oh, I fancy Equinox, it's a rigorous interview system, especially in their managerial roles. Interesting. Um got a standard.
SPEAKER_00Oh, a really high standard. To try and make sure people fit that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I really enjoyed it. I thought the process was great, it was thorough. They will look into sort of personality assessments. They go really deep with what they do management-wise. And then you go through a big training period with those guys, and then eventually you're a manager there. And so that was my first, I would say that's my first corporate job. And that was at I was maybe 29, 30.
SPEAKER_00You know, and yeah, I want to sort of pause there because now I want to take it back because that's a great introduction how through rugby, through playing, through carpentry, through PT, what you've you've got to a point where you're stepping in to an extent, because I know part of the story, but unprepared into that interview, and yet everything that you'd done before had set you up,
Halifax Roots And Multi Sport Youth
SPEAKER_00right? Yeah. So talk to me then about let's get a sense then of you and sport. So, where were you growing up? What sports were you playing? You know, to give me some of that background. Yeah, we'll um we'll flick over some of them. Be specific, be specific, be specific with where you work because we can get Yorkshire now.
SPEAKER_01We can get where place-wise, let's be really specific. So um born in a wonderful town called Halifax in the north of England, just outside Leeds, for those listening anywhere else than Halifax. And I played so my first sport was um swimming. I was a swimmer for since learning to swim basically, and then I just carried on, I was quite good at it, ended up in a team racing, racing as as short as possible. If anybody ever meets me, I'm five-nothing and I needed as short a distance as humanly possible and ended up swimming butterfly, swam really well, swam at like national level. I was ranked XYZ as a youngster. Whilst I was swimming, played footbill, was okay, probably not amazing. When I was at Bradford City in their youth system a little bit, me and another another kid called Josh. Actually, we lived five minutes from each other and we used to go to um Bradford City Youth stuff together. So we were okay, we were good footballers. Then maybe a Saturday or Sunday morning, maybe my dad said, We're going to the rugby clubs. Let's see if we're any good at that, basically. And weirdly, I at that time I was kicking the screaming. I was like, I don't want to go, like I don't I don't want to play rugby. It was freezing cold, it was on um the rugby clubs, I'll give them a plug, it's old Brodle's in Halifax, a great youth club and a great men's club, just a great community centre. And um, I didn't want to go. I went first session, I was like, ah, this is okay. Second session I went to, I was like, I am in love with this game. And and that was it, basically. I I put swimming on the back burner, football went on the back burner, and I played played rugby completely. And so even though there was some success with swimming and I was reasonably good at it, and obviously football in in England and and very much in the UK in the north as well, I'm in between Leeds and Manchester. That's football sort of is the king there. And even though I I could have played it, who knows to what level, but I was just enjoying playing it. I I put it on the back burner because rugby was the focus then and played a lot of rugby, went to that Broadlean's team was very good, and we went and won a lot of stuff. I eventually ended up at England playing at Leeds Tykes at the time, played some rugby league, national standard as well, played for Great Britain as a junior, and got into track and field. I went to the track to try and get quick for rugby. Turns out I was reasonably good on the track, ran a 400 that was quick purely by accident, had no idea what I was doing. And I think probably your good athletes, you take any footballer, any rugby player right now, you boil them down to that period, they're probably quite good at almost everything. I remember doing PE at school and just any game that came up, I could figure it out within about 10 minutes. Whether that was rounders or cricket or hockey or whatever, gymnastics was a really good one. I remember going to a gymnastics through PE to a gymnastics school, and they were like, You're really good at this, why don't you stay and join the team? And I was like, I have no interest in gymnastics. But but sport, sport was my everything. Like I did nothing else other than sport from like 10 years old to 18, 19, 20. Yeah, yeah.
Choosing Track Over Elite Rugby
SPEAKER_00So tell me then, as you were you were kicking through, you start to have to make a choice about which sport, you know, are you really looking to take you through to that next level? When was that and what was sort of the the trigger for you?
SPEAKER_01So anybody in my sort of really close circle knows I made some really, really difficult decisions around sport. I was never gonna be, and there's there's no real career unless you are 0.0%. So that was never gonna be me. I don't think I was a good enough footballer to go anywhere with that, so I was kind of comfortable as well. The rugby and the track and the rugby league, actually. So when you were a youngster rugby league, I'd played under 14, Great Britain, so I'm 13, 14 years old. People try and sign you to their academies, and I had like Leeds, Bradford, Wigan with my sort of contract offers, and I held out because I was playing rugby union as well. And rugby union don't come until 16, so or 15, 16. So I'd held out there, so that was a difficult decision. I eventually went Leeds and I was Leeds Rhinos and Leeds Hykes, which was lucky. And then the track and the rugby thing, this is where it got really complicated because I'd run a good track. I'd I was in three national finals in a year, three styles of national final. And then the next year I was training maybe twice a week, if that. And I was in national 400 meter finals against guys who were training six times a week, twice a day, and I was just sort of mucking around with it, if I'm honest. I was training really hard. I'm very good at training. Like, you give me a session, I'll knock it out of the park. I wasn't really concentrating on it, and that's where the decision came in. So I'd played England 16 and I ran three national finals that same year, and maybe I was still at Leeds at this point. And I'd sat down with Academy Coach and be like, look, I think I previously sat down with my dad and stuff and gone through that decision whether it was do I stick with rugby and that's it, because I'll never be able to go back to the track once I start piling some pounds on and sort of go through that contact. I'll never be able to go back, or do I go and run track for a year or two and figure out if I'm any good at it and really train and train twice a week and more than twice a week. Then I could always go back to rugby, I could always go and put some size on, I could always go pick the game back up. I had the understanding, I had the the ability, and we made that decision in the end. And so we sat down, we went through it all, and we went and told my academy manager that I wasn't gonna play again for at least a year. So I stepped out of the highest level of rugby that age group played. My peers in that team were Owen Farrell, George Ford, like those are now your 100 cap England guys, and I stepped out of that group to go and run track, trained for a couple of years. I eventually ran really quickly. I finished at 48-4, and I was ranked sixth to 12 in the country, ran a bunch of finals, collected a bunch of medals at the north of England and whatnot. So I had a really good short look, really good career on the track, and I met some of the best people I've met in my life. I met some amazing athletes.
SPEAKER_00And so as you were going through that, where did you want? I mean, this is you 16, 17, right? 16, 17, yeah. Yeah. And so then what changed? Because I'm I'm interested. What were you hoping to achieve then through track? But then what shifted?
SPEAKER_01So do you know what? It was more of it was more of just giving it a crack. I didn't think I'd given it a fair crack. I felt like I was just off half and half in it. I just wonder what I could do and how fast I could go if I really train. And I got quick. 48-4 is quick. Again, I'm five-nothing. Like it makes no sense.
SPEAKER_00Your legs are going at a very fast pace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're good, they're turning over. I just wonder how quick I could go. And national finals were great. I was in that same circle. I was training with some really great athletes. I was being in the groups that I should be in. I went to a national training group in Birmingham with the best 400 meter runners in the country, and I was hanging in the session. I was like, I could do this. I didn't really think this is my career. I knew that wasn't my career. I wasn't going to go and race for Great Britain and I wasn't going to the Olympics, and I wasn't going to make my money from it. I just really wanted to see how far I could push it. And as the time went on, I ran 48-4, and then it probably ran at another few 48s. And I was like, unless I change everything, I'm going to have to lose a bunch of weight. I'm going to have to train like a pro and buy all in. Then I won't reach anything that's going to make sense here. So that's when I went back to rugby. And I was played a couple of games in between in the it's called the A-League. It's the level below the Prem. It's like the Prem Reserves, if I can that's a better way of describing it. And I played a couple of games and I was I was like, oh, I've I'm still okay. Like I can still play. The physicality was fine. The speed was great, obviously. I can still play rugby. I'm going to go back to rugby and hopefully go and make a crack of rugby.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. All
Back To Rugby Then Chicago Leap
SPEAKER_00right. And so what decisions did you have to make then to get back into rugby at that time?
SPEAKER_01So I'd been training the whole time I was running track. I would go and do a Saturday morning skill session with a coach that I had worked with previously. So and we were paying him. Me and my brother both went. We would go and train one-on-one with this guy, and he's a skills coach at Sale Sharks at the time, but he was our good friend and he's a bit of a wizard. His son played full pro as well. His son's very good guy called Phil Leck. And we were training with him constantly. So we were seeing him for skills. When the conversation about coming back to rugby happened, I sat with Phil, and Phil was like, look, let's get you in front of Sale and see if they are interested. And I played an A-League game for those guys. I seem to remember this. I talked about this recently to somebody, and I caught a ball at fullback, chipped and chased, caught the ball, chipped and chased again, caught the ball and right in the corner off about an 80. And I just thought, if I can buy in and get some games under my belt, I'm going to be alright. And that was my trial game at sale. And they were obviously like, why don't you come in and train with us a little bit? So I went back to play at sale, played some A-League games, played one first team preseason game. And my thing, then I was playing rugby. Then it changes again then. So the next step would be then what's next. And that's when America came in.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm interested first academically, where was school? Where was college? What was going on from that side through this period?
SPEAKER_01So finished school at 17. So I did my GCSEs. I planned to go to a different school for my A levels to go and play rugby full-time in one of these like ace leagues. If you see it, so that was my plan. And then I ran track instead, so that plan fell through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, how did you fund your life at that point?
SPEAKER_01The track stuff was tough. I got grants through there was a grant, a national lottery grant that we used to get, and that would just about cover me. And then I went and worked, I did summer jobs basically. I worked for my dad's galvanising plant, which was middle of Bradford, galvanizing plant as like 14, 15-year-old lad on the bins, like galvanizing bins. So that was an awakening. And then I worked to be a construction, and then I got a job at a sports shop in Bradford. So I worked part-time and basically broke even, if I'm honest with you. There's no money getting put away.
SPEAKER_00What brought America down the path? Because you've done track, you're now in this view of saying, right, I'm giving rugby a shot. 18 years old, you're thinking, right, let's go for it. Why didn't you pursue something in England? What took this big leap to go overseas?
SPEAKER_01I remember having a conversation with the then director of rugby, and it was, you're never gonna play. Like you're too small, you're five-nothing. And I'm technically a centre, I was playing in the centres, centre wing, you're not big enough for us. And I was like, can't get any bigger, like, can't grow. Is that gonna limit my playing time? Just like, yeah, very much so. Like, ain't gonna happen. So I'd best find a new club. So I'd had that little moment of freedom where I was like, I'm not attached, I'm not signed to anybody, I'm gonna have a look around. And actually, through this same skills coach, Phil, he had spoken to an Italian club, but they were called Aironi at the time. And there was a possibility of a two-year, three-year contract out there. I was like, oh, I'll just balance to Italy, I'll go and figure it out in Italy. Like, I'll go play some rugby or figure it out, whatever. Cross bridges when I get to them. Contract fell through the week before I was supposed to fly because of a discrepancy of age. I'd said, I'm a 92 birthday, and they thought they'd written down or thought I was 93, which would have changed my eligibility to become Italian. So Italian citizenship would have taken five rather than three years. So they were like, no contract. So now I'm free again and I'm packed, my bags are packed, I'm ready to roll. And I'd played with an American in uh sale and he lived in Chicago and he called me and he's like, What are you doing? It's like nothing. I'm sat at my friend's house, my bags are packed. He's like, Do you want to come uh do you want to come to Chicago for uh three months to play some rugby? I was like, I absolutely do, yeah. And I decided I didn't I didn't I didn't consult anybody, I decided on the phone that night booked those flights. I actually stayed at my friend's house that night and then went back to my parents in the morning and was like, hey look, I'm uh going to Chicago. And they were like, okay, what? I think I'm I'm 20. Yeah. I'm I've just turned 20 and I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go. Like three months, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna figure it out, and then we'll see what happens next. So uh yeah, flew out maybe that week.
SPEAKER_00That's I mean, quite brave in terms of jumping out and just going. I mean, you've got a friend to help settle you, which is obviously fantastic. Did you think beyond the three, you know, as you as you look back, did you think beyond the three months about what might follow? Or is it get out, play for a season?
SPEAKER_01I'd like to think I thought about it. Knowing me, I would think, and most likely thought, I'll just go out and I'll figure it out. I'll meet somebody, I'll find somebody. We'll we both know what rugby clubs are like, and you can walk into a rugby club and get a job the next day. It just happens that way. So I just thought, you know what, I'm just gonna go and figure it out. I'll meet somebody. And I eventually obviously did. I met everybody in the rest of my life here. So I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna go. And if I don't like it, I can always come out. Like, I'm not moving to Mars, I'm going to Chicago. That's a flight away.
SPEAKER_00I'm so with you. I have that same mantra in my mind. The worst thing that happens is I go back to Leeds, I go home, you know, and I think there's something about having a place of safety or a spot where you can always go back to in the back, whether it's real or not, but it's having that sort of surety just helps you sometimes make those leaks to jump even further. And so for you, landing then Chicago, I guess sort of moving forward, how did you manage to set? What were you doing for work? What were you doing for play? What did that look like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah,
Rugby As A Social Passport
SPEAKER_01so I will speak so highly of Chicago, it's my second home. I moved into the rugby club used to own a bar, and then the apartment was on top of the bar. So we had four, four rooms in that apartment, and it was as soon as I got there, it was full of rugby players. There were four lads already there. They'd one of my best friends, I moved straight in with him. He's an amazing player and a great coach and a good dude, and a guy called Andrew Sunula. He comes from a really famous sort of New Zealand family, and he'd played a bunch, he's got brothers everywhere. And I got there day one, little English kid, just got off a plane, and he turned right, he turned straight to me and was like, You want some dinner? I was like, Yeah, do you? And he cooked up a bunch of chicken and rice. And I sat down and we we did we'd honestly, I remember that first dinner, and I sat with these three lads who I'd never met. It just felt normal, it just felt like we were just like my friends. So I got really lucky, and I think people do get lucky like that because that's what sport is. And I think we're very welcoming. All sports people were very, very welcoming, and especially when you've got someone coming in, we're all very welcoming. And these guys, that Chicago Griffins team took me in. I went to Christmas's at someone's house, I went to Easter at someone else's, Thanksgiving at someone else's parents, and I was like a little lost child, and they looked after me really well, and and I my familiarity just was with the rugby, and I just I was like, you know what, I'm good at this. And I'm now a grade where I can sort of teach it back. I'd been coaching previous, but I'm now at a real grade where I can teach people who maybe have never even seen a ball before. So I that gave me some familiarity with coaching and and giving back. It wasn't like I was the new guy just sponging. I was helping the community as well. So that was what I was doing coaching. And then I worked I worked that bar, a wonderful bar called the Black Trek. It's been knocked down since. But that bar it is like it's your house and it's work and it's the communal place of the Griffins. So that place really settled me in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that's brilliant. It does sound like a fantastic period. And you know, it's one of the bits you get in overseas or into new environments, should I say. And sport, I've always said, is this sort of like is a gateway, it's a passport to so many other things. And you're able to integrate so quickly around sport because it's something really common language, behaviors, expectations with teammates that really does work. And so, what did you start to see as sort of potential futures for yourself?
SPEAKER_01I think that's where it transitions. I mean America then, and I'm like, right, there is no pro rugby at this time in America. I need it's like, okay, now I need to make A, rugby needs to be my vessel to meet people, which it was. And B, I'm different. I'm English in the middle of Chicago. There's not a heap of us. There's a few of us, but there's not loads of us. And I need to make that count. So that's when I started to use rugby as like a vessel. So I would go to places with the rugby team or with some of the rugby guys, the Chicago guys, and I would go to events, I would go and speak to people. My view then is like, okay, who can I make good friends with, good enough friends with, that they're like, hey, you know what? Why don't you come work for us? And if that's a consulting job, a sales job, a technical job, whatever that is, I've always sort of got whether this is good or bad, I have a a bit of a view of whatever it is, I'll figure it out. Doesn't matter, sport, jobs, interaction, people, I'll figure it out. And I sort of leaned into that using the sport. So I kept the sport as my this is my vehicle to go and do things outside of sport, but knowing that sport was not going to be the career anymore. Like I'm not going to make sport the career. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, how hard was it coming to that realization at the time?
Accepting Most Athletes Do Not Go Pro
SPEAKER_01I think personally is is the toughest part of it is all my conversations about being any good at this game are now 10 years, 15 years ago. And now I I'm like uh I'm like an old has been trying to talk about the past, even though it's mine and I've done it, and you know it, you know how it is. And and I had to work my butt off to get all that stuff and nothing was handed to me. I still have to talk about it 10 years ago. And I'm like, oh, I used to do I used to be. That's a really tough part of it. But once you get a bit older, I think you start to see I think it works really well for me is is numbers of people who make it. And if you can put that in your brain, like football is insane. I think I read a stat the other day, uh Tony Poolis back at home is trying to fix the academy system. And he put out a number the other day, and it's it's like 97% of academy players do not play pro in England. And that number is in that's just madness. If 3% are only making pro football, then you kind of have to sit with yourself sometimes and be like, okay, 3%, and I just wasn't in that 3%. Like that's just how it goes. Like, unless you are at that top of the grade and you stick with it and you make all the right decisions and to sort of anchor back, maybe when I was 16 and playing with Owen and and George, had I have stayed, maybe things would have been different down the line. But I made my decision and it got me a load of other positive things on the other side of it. I've got track guys that I can call tonight if I need to. And and it's just that you have to stack all those right decisions to be in that 3%. And if you get one wrong and it doesn't equal that end goal, but gives you a bunch of other things, then you know, so be it. And as you get a little bit older, it it it evens out, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, it does. And some of it is about kind of two-point, take bringing some of those lessons with you. And what you did in Chicago, and indeed what you continue to do is you're giving back some of those lessons that you've had. Because along that way, being in the top 4%, 5%, 6% is still massive when you start looking at you know where we're trying to get to, because that 100% of kids in an academy system, in it I'm gonna say in just about any sport, you're right, the you know, it will grow and shrink based on the popularity and participation of the game. But what you're saying is, yeah, 97% of those who are already at an elite level by age group don't make it. But for many, making it into an academy system gives you the lessons, demonstrates a point of discipline, a point of natural ability in some respects that that the rest of the population don't have. So recognizing where you've already got to to even get into that number in itself is a is a great thing, hard to take, right? But it's still a fantastic achievement. There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately suicide. And so I think it's time for it. Every year we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activity. It might be a retirement, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career second with. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
SPEAKER_01I really do, and I'm sure people told me this when I was coming up. Age helps with this, like it really, really does help. And and now I'm in a position where I'm coaching university athletes to 18, 19-year-olds, and I have to do recruitment calls with um with prospective students who want to come and play at the university. I am now in a position where I know exactly what they're thinking. I know verbatim what is going on in their head. I'm gonna be a pro, I'm gonna play professional rugby for the rest of my life, and I'm gonna suck off school, I don't need to do. And now I sit in this chair where I go, mate, I know what you're thinking. Almost to the T, just it's about being a little bit smarter than I was. And if I can get 60 kids, 80 kids, 100 kids to do that, then I'm doing my job right, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that would be a huge impact. And look, and that's why we're having this conversation, if anything, to get our lessons learned out there for people to watch, to for people to hear for themselves the stories, right? And your perspective, your story is so important because you're now coming back full circle to, you know, speaking to what you would have you wanted to hear. Well, you probably didn't want to hear it yourself when we were 18, but it's been part of that. So now I'm interested though, you you talk about the uh because I'm interested in how you got into, you know, the wonder that you your PT and and talk about how that sort of sets up, and then but also the the type of role you've got in recruitment. So talk me through, you know, trying to get back to that point in the interview. You, you know, you were doing PT, you were building some of this experience. Just talk to us a bit about how that started to emerge for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah,
Learning PT Sales Then Managing Numbers
SPEAKER_01so doing that PT, it took a lot of um, like I'm confident. It took like basically all my confidence to try that first one. My first client, I had no idea what I was doing in terms of collecting that client. I somehow got involved, I got introduced to this to this lady who wanted some personal training, and I, off my own back, designed a personal training package, put it on a little I was on a little iPad at the time, went and met her for coffee, did a sales pitch where I oh the pricing, looking back, I I now know it very intimately, the the PT game, pricing was all wrong, the packages were poor, it was way too cheap, and all I wanted was it just to say yes and buy something, and she ended up doing it. And and I was like, I remember sort of bumbling my way through it, being like, oh, she's not got this, this is stupid. And then she bought it, paid for the packages. I trained her for like three years post that, and she was an awesome client, worked really hard. And I just I remember leaving that coffee shop being like, Oh, I can I can do this. Like, I'm I've done way scarier stuff playing rugby. Like I've played against Fort Internationals, barbarians, like I can sit with somebody and have a conversation about personal training and no training. So that first one took a lot of confidence, and then once I got my rhythm with that, the PT was really good. It just sort of became, I can help you, like let me help you. This is what it costs to s to simplify it. And then going into management, I just then it's honestly it's coaching again, like it's just me teaching that back to the personal trainers. Um, obviously managing a big a big business there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but was was that something I guess as a coach or personal trainer, would you have you know you you link that straight to coaching? You you know, you're able to see, well, actually being a manager is just like organizing a a a team. Did you think that at the time, or did you just sort of jump in and think, right, what do I do? What can I pick up from rugby that's gonna help me here?
SPEAKER_01I think I had a I had an idea of it. Like I know I'd I've managed teams. This was all my PT stuff was in in um in Chicago in America. And then when I moved to Canada, that's when I became the a manager. So I I'd had a little bit of experience, like plus all the rugby stuff, and then I got the I got a team of post-pandemic, I got a team of maybe eight trainers and grew it to 20 or whatever, and we were doing a couple million res and we were doing good stuff, but I always knew it was very similar to coaching sport, like it's the same thing, and the same thing then goes into PT team. We use it as something I will tell people, it's like a football team. I use American football because I'm over here now, but I would be like, it's like it's like a football team. I can't have 10 quarterbacks. I need to go out and find myself a quarterback, a couple of wide receivers, a couple of O linemen, a couple of D linemen, and that tells you your style of people that you employ. So when I build a personal training team, I need to make a full team so that that sort of guides my recruitment then and and my my firing and and sort of process there. And it all can be related to sport, in my opinion. And if you've got that and you've done the coaching or you've been in the system, you kind of know a lot about the business anyway. Like you know sort of the underlying themes of it all. Now it's just about how do you translate that into corporate real world experience?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How did you do that? Initially, it's I I got really well trained at Equinox when I when I'd gone through their training system, but a lot of it I was like, I get this, like it makes sense. I I know how to emotionally look after people through sport. Like if I'm a head coach of a team and I've got someone who's having a terrible day, I don't need to jump on them for the tiniest mistake. That's not gonna make sense. It's gonna it's gonna spiral out their day. I need to maybe this one's uh put an arm around the shoulder and we figure it out together. If I've got someone who responds really well to on the rugby field, somebody just wants direct feedback. This, this, this, I need you to improve this, this, this. Then maybe that's a person in my training team as well. And as a personal trainer, they want the facts. They don't want to sit down and talk for 40 minutes about things. They want to go, well, did I do well? What can I improve on? How do I get back out of it? So you could translate that way as a coach and then as a manager, and then the biggest thing you have to learn is business, then. So then you start to look at num like numbers. Like what numbers equal what? How can I look at a page full of numbers? We call it, we would call it like a dashboard. How do I look at a dashboard and tell you how healthy that club is based on that dashboard? That was some that was felt like going back to school, if I'm honest with you. That's felt like I had to sit down, concentrate, study, understand, and then apply.
SPEAKER_00Which is fair. I mean, it it is it. It's you have to learn, right? And how prepared are you then to take what you know and what you have previously learned and then put this into a new environment, into a new context of of sorts. And so that sounds like you know, that's the process that you followed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I was in a better mindset to learn. I at 16, 17, did not care. I thought I'd done it. I was like, oh, I'm gonna play. I was picking up a bit of money playing rugby in schools, in my England stash, which is an absolute crime looking back at that. And I was like, this is it, I'm good, I'm gonna play forever. And I just had no interest in school, uh, as many of my teachers would let you know. I just had no interest. And I but now fast forward to that time of learning the business and the practical application of it. And I think it really helps when it's real for myself, right? I need to be in it, I needed to be effective and real. And I was managing a couple of million dollars worth of business. So I was like, all right, this is real. I get this, like I see that change, you know.
SPEAKER_00So as you're you know, so I see that now building on a career perspective, you're getting management level management experience, and you know, like you say, you're running a you know, million-dollar plus PL, yeah. So those seven figures are growing, which is which is excellent. That connection to rugby and finding your way into university, into that role. How did
University Of Toronto Coaching Challenge
SPEAKER_00that come about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so I'm I'm in this job, I'm actually coaching. So when I moved, if ever I move, I'll always reach out and speak to some rugby clubs first. And I'd emailed a bunch of rugby clubs saying, Hey, does anybody want some help playing coaching? And I'd I was coaching at the time, I was coaching a men's team in division two, so a little bit lower standard, and I'd gone in and gone full sergeant major, let's fitness this thing, let's and they I remember these lads looking at me and being like, Yeah, we're here to play on a Saturday, and that's about it. And I was like, I read the room wrong. And then this university job popped up. I knew the guy who was leaving, and he'd heard of of myself through some other rugby guys, and I'd got asked if I'd if I'd be interested or want to come and have a look at it. And do you know what it was about giving back for me? So it was my chance to. I've had such an amazing experience through rugby and been all over the world, New Zealand, Australia, America. Like I've had such a great experience. It really felt like a good time to give back to the game, and it's it's a very prestigious role as well. It's it is Canada's number one academic university, like it's a powerhouse university, and at the time, a bit of a struggle state. So did not win a game for a long time. And A, I can give back, and B, I was like, this is a challenge. If they haven't won a game in X amount of years, I was like, I could get them some wins for sure. And it was a bit of a challenge, and and that came around. That was a rigorous interview as well. So three rounds, five year, you had to write a f a five-year plan. So I had to sort of project what I think I was going to do there. How do you do that?
SPEAKER_00For the first time, you know, someone says to you, five-year plan, it's like because you know, we talked here about you not thinking 12 weeks ahead, never mind here now. We're pushing for a five-year plan.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I remember writing out the seasons, and I had it all written, I pen and papered it, and I had all the seasons written out, and I was like, okay, they've not won a game, they're bottom of the league. How do I fix that in season one? And I was like, okay, we've got to get fit, we've got to have a style and an understanding of what our sort of style is, and then we need to pick off at least one game we think we can win. That was my season one. I was like, all right, I'll flesh that out later. My season two is this. I just sort of wrote what I think we needed, what I think they needed, and then a result at the end of it. And we exceeded in both my first two years, and we've just finished year three, so the first two years we exceeded what I what I thought we would do. And this last season we've performed really well. So I sort of just went through that process. What what do I think they need? What do I think the system or what style should be, and then how what does that result look like? And through the interview process, I I sort of talked my philosophy of rugby and my understanding of it, and yeah, ended up with the role, and it it's been and is one of my most rewarded things I've done.
SPEAKER_00And listen, congratulations for for landing that role. And I applaud the way you took that five-year plan and broke it down first into seasons, you know, as athletes we operate by season, and then you took it down to game. You know, the objective, you know, is winning games, but let's break it down to winning a game, who could that be and targeting it? And it's great how sport always helps, we always use that, but it it means that we can use a language that we understand by saying, well, it's your season, it's the next game, it's your block of games, it's therefore training and fundamentals. And you're not going to turn make any turnaround possible without focusing on, like you did, those fundamentals of fitness, strength, fitness, um, and philosophy. I guess those values that really are playing through. I I think that's a great breakdown.
SPEAKER_01And that bleeds back into work as well. Like, if you get if you give me 20 trainers, what what do we want to be as trainers? Do we want to be a an also ran team or do we want to be like the training team in the city? And I used to preach that. I've worked at a few gyms now, and every gym I go to, I get the training teams together. And I was like, do we want like my goal is to have the best training team in the city. I want everybody to look at us and be like, oh, those guys are those guys are good. See how it's very similar to sport. I won't want sports teams to be like that as well. Like, I want my training team to be like that. I want my whatever business I eventually end up with. If I end up with a with a 20-man sales team, I want my sales team to be known as the best sales team in in the business. So it's it's about pride and standards and and a philosophy of a sort of a team, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, plenty there to take away.
Recruiting Players With Academics First
SPEAKER_00And you know, Josh then uh you you you're in a job now where you get to speak to future talent. And you gave a little snippet there of how you've talked to them about thinking, hey, you know, a little bit just beyond the game. But what kind of conversations do you sort of have with them, or how do you get them to think a little bit beyond, hey, you come in here, you can be a pro, and you can be a billionaire off the back of it, or maybe not.
SPEAKER_01I go through a slideshow with the whole recruits, and in that slideshow, the first slide is about academics. So obviously as an opening page, but the first slide is academics. When I do these presentations as well, it could be just me and prospective student. It could also be me, prospective students, and two parents, three parents, whatever, one parent. Like I could be on with parents, and I have to lead with academics because I know I know my audience, the kid is thinking I'm gonna be a pro forever. The parents are like, oh my god, I'm gonna send my kid away to school. And we get international students. So I have students from Singapore, Japan, England, Scotland, I have students from across the world and they come to the university and I have to make sure that everybody's comfortable in a goal. So for the parents, it's academics, they want their, if they're gonna send their kid to UFT, they want a degree that makes sense, recognized by one of the best universities in the world. So I have to play to that. They have to know that that's part of my goal as well. I have to know that the kid wants to play rugby, but he has to be academically almost perfect if he wants to play rugby. We hold very high standards in my team where if I get any sort of note instruction from school about school, then we have a really tough conversation at training. School comes first. And 18-year-old me would have never even thought about that sentence. But now I'm the one who has to deliver that information. So it's a real sort of full circle moment. And I think I try and put myself in other people's shoes when I talk to them, whatever conversation that is, if I'm one of those parents, that would make me feel so comfortable that someone who has essentially made that mistake is now able to see that mistake and then warn about that mistake, you know.
SPEAKER_00Just as a take it from a tangent there, do you see your path as a mistake?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I wouldn't be where I was if if I hadn't done what I'd done. I think I think in a traditional sense, maybe, right? I didn't go to university, I didn't even look at it. I just was like, I'm not. And it as a from a traditional sense, I would think if you were to poll 100, 70 would say that's possibly a mistake, not going to school, not going to further education. In my opinion, I will never admit to that because I've got a world of experience. I've met some of the coolest people you'll ever think of. I'm friends with people that I would have never made friends with. So I've had a great time. And I would say it's not a mistake, but traditionally, possibly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. As in so, you know, cutting in, what you really what you are also saying is the advice. So based on your experience, continuing a bit like we we opened up before we started pressing record about not retiring from playing, playing for us as long as our bodies will take us. You go aside, you've just got to keep playing, and we're good enough to stay at the top. But what you are saying is a similar bit comes from formal education or traditional education, which is if you can keep something going, keep it going, keep studying, and you know, don't put them to the side fully.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you have the opportunity, and I'll I'm very lucky that I get to speak about University of Toronto. Like it's academically amazing. So I'm very, very lucky that these are my conversations. Like if you have the opportunity to come to this university, absolutely come to this university. You're gonna get a degree that will open any door anywhere, basically. Once people see it for the tea leaf, this thing, we just people see the tea leaf on a sedan, on a degree, it's a door opener for sure. So I'd say if you can, do.
SPEAKER_00And it's interesting because you know, West Yorkshire, where we're coming from, it hasn't been a typical path, right? Certainly down a rugby uh view, it's play pro, it's stay in England, play pro, do those leagues. And what you are literally living right now is opening that doorway to see there's another path to see sport as that vehicle to give. fulfillment in life and take you further.
SPEAKER_01I think had I have gone to university and got a degree, would I be where I am? No chance. I think I would be in I would play I would most likely have gone and played rugby league in Halifax at Leeds at somewhere around there. I would have got myself a job with that degree and I would have sort of lived in that sphere. I would have never ventured abroad. Whereas not having that, I've gone and seen half the world. I've met amazing people and I live in a completely different country with an amazing job now sort of giving back to that sport community.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's which is really powerful it's that also trusting the sport of community in in the community of sport is that right? Yeah trust in it as well. You know you do the right thing by it'll probably do right by you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I will advocate for rugby and say that it's one of the last few like ultimate communities you do whatever you want. I've been down to New Zealand, Australia. You walk in a bar, you meet people, shake hands. I went on Lions tour this year and I was down in Australia for a couple of weeks with some South African guys who live in Australia. It was amazing and we could go anywhere and meet people and sit down and have a drink with them and talk like we probably knew each other. It just is one of those last great communities and all sport has it. I just know the rugby one really well and if you buy into it certainly buys into you.
SPEAKER_00So true. Well said
Advice: Meet People Before You Need Them
SPEAKER_00so look Josh we've come up to the end of this chat and we've probably covered a lot of the topics we maybe gone through it but looking at your experience I guess bringing your perspective what guidance do you give to athletes who are perhaps at this crossroads especially young athletes at a crossroads thinking how do I go next? How do I get the best out of sport to help me set myself up in life what guidance would you give to them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah so I think I wish somebody would have told me to go and meet more people earlier. We get and I'm sure this was probably the same for yourself like we get in these that's when we're 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, we live in these same groups, which is great. Those boys are the best we I'm still best friends with my guys from Halifax. And I just think it's really important that you get outside that and meet different people from different spots. Go and meet some guys from Tickettown over. Go find a rugby club and just reach out we have so many ways now to reach out to people and speak to people LinkedIn people Facebook people Instagram people there are so many ways to reach out and just start a conversation you would be surprised how many people are interested in talking. Like you can shoot a message to people and they will they'll speak back to you. So I think I wish somebody had told me that earlier and go and make a bunch of really healthy connections because those are ultimately what pay off like if you if you go to school don't go to school get a degree learn all this practical application of stuff you're gonna need somebody to help you out and point you in the right direction or even if it's somebody to introduce you to somebody else you need those connections. So I think go and start meeting people and shaking hands and just being good to the people around you you know Josh right well said I've got to say thank you very much for bringing in your perspective and sharing a lot of your experience with me on the show and I'm sure everyone's going to be wanting to reach out and try and follow your journey what's the best place for them to find you so I'm on LinkedIn just now the absolute communicator isn't it so it can be found on LinkedIn it's just Josh Allen I think it's Josh Allen director so it can be found on there and then I am on if somebody's on Instagram they can find me on there. It's just Coach Josh Allen. I think I can't preach what I just said without being able to reach back out as well you know so if there are people out there and they're in that spot or they're thinking about moving abroad or trying university or just want advice in general I've kind of done a lot of I've made a lot of mistakes which now mean I can give a lot of good answers you know and I would much rather save somebody from it than let them sort of stunt through it like I did.
SPEAKER_00Brilliant. Josh well listen that's what this is all about. So thanks again for your time it's been absolutely great to share this hour with you. Yeah thanks Ryan you're doing a great thing here thank you for listening to the Second Win
Where To Connect And Final CTA
SPEAKER_00podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me take it easy until next time
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