192: Matthew Hodgson - From Pro Basketball To People Performance Advisor

Matthew Hodgson spent his entire career knowing he had the ability and never quite trusting it. The moment basketball was gone, so was everything he thought he knew about himself.

He made the Boomers. Had a stint with the Dallas Mavericks. Won championships.

And still felt like a loser.

When the phone stopped ringing, he was sitting on a beach in Hawaii with an 18-month-old daughter and no plan.

What came next was messy. 

In this episode, Ryan sits down with Matthew Hodgson, former NBL pro and founder of People Performance Advisors, to talk about what it actually looks like to rebuild an identity from scratch.

What We Get Into:

- Why making the Boomers and having a stint with the Dallas Mavericks still wasn't enough to make him feel good enough

- The injury that ended his career and the free agency that confirmed it was over

- Sitting on a beach in Hawaii and realising the phone wasn't going to ring

- Turning down a masters degree the day after getting accepted and why it was the right call

- The job he took that he knew he'd hate and what it taught him anyway

- The $100,000 he spent trying to fix his own head while he was still playing

- Why he was punishing himself and calling it discipline

-  How a kid who wanted basketball coaching accidentally opened the door to his entire career

- What he actually does now and why it finally feels like using his strengths

- Why he threw out the AI content and started recording straight after training when the feeling hit

Want to go deeper?

If you are looking for career clarity for your next step, visit www.2ndwind.io
to learn more or book a consult.

Transcript

Trapped By Your Own Mind

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Even though I didn't believe in myself, it's like I I knew how much ability that I had because I'd worked so hard on everything. I didn't see that I didn't think that I had the the mental fortitude or the understanding of myself or the confidence or whatever it was, however you want to term it, to be able to use the capability that I had. So I saw myself as trapped by my own mind from like I felt like I had a tiger like in a cage and I just didn't have the mental key to be able to let this thing out. So that's where I invested like a lot of my time and energy.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Hi, I'm Ryan Gonzalvet, and welcome to the Tech and Wind Academy podcast. A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes. Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story. Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a TVs of conversation. Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty. Elite athletes are still people athletic. Let's be inspired by the stories of others. Welcome to the show. Good to have you here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Like I really, really appreciate you having me on. Especially exactly we actually barely know each other. Or actually don't know each other, so I just uh get to know each other now.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, that's right. So this is it's a good first conversation. It just so happens there's going to be several people listening and watching as we get to know one another. And I learn more about your story, you know, because from what I've read so far, it does seem quite fascinating, quite interesting, and especially sort of where you are right now, you know, the thinking and thoughts that you go through is I think will be good to break down a little bit. So thanks for taking out the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yeah, excellent. Now, I know that we have a mutual friend in Alex, so he increasing the average height of individuals on this podcast as I get more and more athlete uh basketballers coming on.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah, I'll have to I'll have to introduce you to someone who's like seven foot three or something, the next one. So just we keep gonna win each and maybe we'll get we'll build our way to like Yamin or Victor Wembiana or someone like that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So yeah, that would be good. Actually, we saw Wembanyama we were over in we saw the Lakers play the Spurs last year in LA. That was pretty cool. He was on fire that day as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

He's amazing. Was he even taller than you thought he was gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, because he's like freakishly tall too, like seven three or something, right? And just the fact that he can move in the manner that he does at that height is just like Yeah, it was great.

Matthew’s Basketball Journey Worldwide

SPEAKER_00 2:30

It was so cool actually. But let's hone in on you. Let's kick on there, because before my basketball knowledge uh reduces, but yeah, runs around. But but listen, so you know, obviously I've just mentioned basketball, but for those who don't know you, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're up to nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, so I'm Matthew Hodson. I used to play professional basketball for a long time actually. So yeah, moved away from home at 17 to go to the Australian Institute of Sport. From there went to college. I was there for five years up in the USA. I was in Utah first, and then I was in California, and then to Southern Utah up in St. Mary's. I met my now wife there, which was amazing. Was fortunate enough to go to the we won a championship uh one of the years after college, went to the NCAA tournament to the March Madness and all that sort of cool stuff. So that was awesome. Came back, had an interesting start to my career, but thankfully managed to sort of make it into a professional rum start. And I played here in Australia for eight years, played over in Europe, played over Asia, made the Australian national team, that's to the boomers. And I actually had a cup of tea, had a little splash in the NBA as with them with the Dallas Mavericks for the in 2017 for their pre-season. And sort of got Jeff Dell the sport, lot of injuries and mentally fraying, I guess you could say, as well, and really sort of bounced around a lot afterwards and found my way into organizational advisory now. So I know I got a real focus on people on performance, but I know undergraduate in psychology when I was in college, and I did my postgraduate in psychology when I was still playing actually for the Brisbane Bullets. So combine that, the lessons I learned this and understanding of the of the real world, I like to call it, uh, outside of sport. Yeah, very fortunate, sort of found my way into advisory, which is always what I envisaged myself, just wasn't quite sure how I was gonna get there.

Injuries And An Unwanted Exit

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Fantastic. Thanks for that. A couple of points on you know, jumping in. You speak about being ejected from the sport. That what a word I can get, the basketball term that comes in there as well. But when you say ejected, it feels like it wasn't necessarily on the terms you wanted.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh, hell no. It wasn't even close to the terms I wanted. Like if I had it my way, I'd still be playing to this day. And and actually, to be honest with you, Ryan, I was tracking that way. Like I was probably tracking to retire, gosh, big guys. I did have retired when I was like 40. I'd say retired from basketball and sort of walked away from it. And uh but my body started to shut down, not shut, yeah, I guess shut down on me to a certain degree. I kept getting returning uh calf strains, and they were just uh I think that was from I had major knee surgery when I was 21, uh 22 actually, and that sort of jeopardized me even getting a start into the pros, but I've managed to manage to do it. And just through the years, as you know as an athlete, you have to push a lot of those things to the side to focus on performance and being there every day and doing the things you're supposed to. So a lot of these things that a lot of things with your body that take time to and specific focus and and rest, you don't get the opportunity to do that, and you don't and being in your 20s, you don't really think much of it. So I was really disheartened for with me because I'd had three career years in a row actually, and I went to a new team and I actually wasn't good. I'd had a couple of injuries that kept me out out of the season for a while, and and obviously I started finally played my way back into being a semblance of myself and playing well, and then we got to the US Wildcats, and we've we're the first Perth Wildcats team in 35 years to miss the playoffs. So, like I started playing really well for like the last five games. I was like, Oh, I'm just gonna keep this going into playoffs and I'll be back. That it wasn't that way, so and that killed my stock to the point that I didn't really want to accept, and I didn't think was because I even still got asked to play for the national team after that season, and but then I went to Taiwan, ran away to Taiwan because I was sort of embarrassed about where I was at, I guess, and kept getting hurt, hated it over there, and then yeah, that was it. I just couldn't get myself back into the sport. So it was something that you know, it's like when did you realize? And I said one of the questions I remember in the email is like, when did you realize that the sport wouldn't last forever? It's like when it was happening to be, you know, so that was it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, I mean, often there isn't a specific point in life where it kicks in until, like you say, you're just going through this and you're looking back, it's like, hold on, I'm not in there. My name's not on uh the roster anymore. When did this happen?

Hawaii Moment When Calls Stop

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, that was it. It was free agency. I remember because we're in Hawaii because we pled we planned it. So I've been away from the game for a while, I sort of got hurt at this round the start of the NBO one NBO season here in Australia over in Taiwan, so rosters were already full. So Major's like, just hang on, someone will get hurt, and you'll be able to get an injury replaced. So I was training there and things like that. And no one must have been one of those three years when no one got hurt, and I just it was like training, training, and still carrying major injuries, Matt. But I remember I was playing in like the state league season, I was like barely playing because I'd torn plant fascia. I came onto a team, like all this wild stuff, yeah. Just crazy. I just couldn't get healthy. And it sort of, I was like, the free agency would come. I'm still Matt Hodson, like someone's gonna call. And free edge came and phone wasn't real, my agent wasn't like tasting me back or anything. I was like, wow, like, and that was a realization. I remember I was in Hawaii because we booked that trip beforehand, we thought we'll go, because my wife's American, we hadn't seen them a lot uh through the pandemic years, and we had a little we had our daughter, she was 18 months, and uh so we both met in Hawaii and I just remembered like sitting on the beach there and by myself at the time, I was like got up early, I was like, damn, like yeah, like I'm not gonna get picked up. Like my time as a pro is is done and dusted for now.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

So yeah.

Full-Time Dad And Plan Reset

Why Brokering Felt Like A Box

SPEAKER_01 7:49

So what did you do then, like at that moment? You know, this is crazy. My foot actually healed. Is that like uh this tour and plant fascia? I realized like it was all over, and then within two days I was walking around. I was like, wow, like my foot feels like normal. So really weird, almost energetic, like response. I started contemplating what's next, and I I'd already sort of not shot myself in the foot, but everything that I was building towards post-basketball, I was like, I'm always gonna have a plan for afterwards, and that's why I did my postgrad. And I couldn't do my masters while I was still playing because it requires like practical, like going out in placements, and obviously don't have the time to do those maths. So I was like, well, maybe I could, and I was like, no, they wouldn't make allowances where I could do the theoretical side and then do the placements later. Okay, fair enough. Like uh, I'm not bigger than the institution, but I went and applied for the masters. I actually got accepted for a master's in organizational psychology here in Queensland and in UQ. So I got the letter of author, and something within me at the time was like, this isn't the right path. And I was really so I was like, it just it was like a really strong feeling, I'll take it. So I didn't take it. And like at the time, Kat and my wife was working, we were getting no income in because we used to be earning all the money, and then so we get nothing in. And my wife was just finished her placements for nursing, and so she was working here in Istwich. So I was like full-time daddy. So I was I don't know how I'm gonna like be full-time daddy. We didn't want to put her into daycare, and maybe that was a fault on us, but I was just like just the thought of putting my little girl, like being so young, into that. I was just like, I can't sort of leave her at this time, you know. So even though we sort of need to thankfully have some reserves behind us and stuff, but it was more so I was I'm a full-time daddy, and I was like, I can't put it into daycare so I can go do this. Like, I've got to figure out another way because the the study load would have been incredible for the you know next two years. So that shot that plan, and then that's when it's like right back to the drawing board. So I had a actually an opportunity literally the next day after I turned it down, I got a visit from a family friend of mine who lives in Sydney actually, is a um commercial finance broker, Brendan Scotter at Commercial Point Finance. So he's an operate like a solo commercial finance broker, killing it, like doing really, really well. And he was actually the one that coincidentally got me into basketball. He's like, Look, I've had my eye on you for a while. He said, you know, psychology is not where the money's at. Like, come with me. He's like, I'm not gonna pay you anything, but I'm gonna teach you how to do this and you can develop like your own, like just do a commission and like learn how to do this for yourself. Like I've got all this knowledge, I want to impart it. And I knew I'd hate it, right? And like I was like, this just is not me at all. Well, what made you think you would hate it? I always knew that I was gonna be good with people. Like I'm really good with people, really good with teens. It just to me, I know that you can make the case that the work is relational based and it 100% is, but it seemed too technical and it didn't seem like the the actual work of being a broker, like in terms of going and acquiring finance for people as individualized or as free, I would like. That's why I like a better advisory. That's what I probably didn't like about going straight into psychology. I think psychology is a field like desperate to be seen as a real science by the medical field, and so it relies heavily on the scientist practitioner model. So it really, really reduces the things that are scientifically backed as or the methods that you can use, or the so it to me there's just like and I was already feeling that way with that. Was probably why I got that feeling not to go into psychology. Like as my time went on as an athlete, I felt like I was getting more and more boxed in. And then so it's like, well, hang on, you want to jump from one box straight to another one. I wasn't with that, you know. So I could tell brokering wasn't for me, because even like I knew that I had to do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

That's almost the one of the a finance, a broker, and you know, I can see exactly where you are. It's probably one of the most unboxed, certainly at the time, type of roles that you could be doing commercially, helping someone figure out any type of lending, investments. I mean, it's a very broad, I'm gonna say, unboxed type role. The opposite, therefore, of where you were heading. So, what gave you this sense that you weren't going to enjoy it or like it?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I didn't see what I could do differently than anyone else, other than have a good yarn with the now I could provide a different financial solution for sure. But like from one broker to the next, what do I do that's any different? How do I take advantage of my natural strength? Like, I was so used to setting up my life and seeing success using my natural strengths. In basketball, it made a lot of sense. I was seven foot tall, I could run fast and jump higher. So, like that that makes me pretty good at basketball. Add a skill set on top of that, there you go. I couldn't see the sense of enjoyment out of it. I'm all for having a good talk with the people and that I was meeting, but I didn't feel like I was really impacting their lives in the way that I am like feel like I'm actually suited to. Making like getting them finance that could change their company or the things I needed, that's amazing. And that really does impact people. It just wasn't good for me. And I could sort of tell, like, while I was doing it, I was never excited about anything. Like the cold calls and stuff were cool. They were fine, like, because I could just talk to people and it wasn't, I was really like, I'm a terrible salesman, so like I was not really pushy. I was always into the long haul and like, mate, I'm not putting any pressure on you at all. Like, just I'm always here if you need it, so I was like, follow up. And so that was like that's probably made me like really bad at it. Really good at converting in cold calls in terms of getting in terms of getting like contact information, developing relationships. And when even when I started to get momentum, like it started to turn around and I started getting deals, I was never excited about at any stage of the deal.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Only time I was like mildly excited was when the lump sum hit my bank account, and then I was like, you know, that I there was never a stage of it when I was like this is interesting because what I'm hearing from you is you could see why the role could be a good role, and you were about to say why you felt you needed to do it right, but you could see how it would be that development opportunity for you. But what you then described was you couldn't see a uniqueness that you could bring. You couldn't see that, what do we say? We say unfair advantage that you might have that can get you ahead of others. You could see it in a basketball context, but you couldn't see it here. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Perfect. Now nailed it exactly on the head. Exactly. Nothing that I did in basketball meant anything. So like it did you it's like starting all over again. And I was like, I I'm not technically I don't have any technical knowledge and I'm leaning on Brendan a lot more, and that's fine, I didn't have an issue with that. But it just felt like it was a do this and you will get really good at this. It'll take some time, but do this. And I was like, okay, cool, but I sort of had my heart broken from doing that in basketball. So like I really wanted to sort of have like the the times I really because honestly, Ryan, I felt like I as even though I described my career, I felt like I underachieved my career, and a lot of that was because I felt like I got I got in it's amazing I did as much as I did with how much I got in my own way. And like I was never content with who I was, I never thought that I was good enough. Like when I first started playing basketball, I was 14, so I was late, a latecomer. And like when I started to develop a little bit, like I was terrible for like three years, but they were like, I remember having coaches and that like you could be something like truly amazing, but I couldn't see it for myself. I always thought that meant that I had to just go and become someone else or be something else. So the advantage was my work ethic was ridiculous, but the disadvantage was that I never trusted that what I was at that time was good enough. So I was never good enough at any stage. So in the games, it sort of was like I didn't have that sense of freedom. And obviously I had to perform to a good level to do the things that I did, but they were damn near like sporadic almost. It was like I like would have these moments of just true expression and freedom, and I was playing as myself, I was completely happy with and content, and I was dominating and just loving what I was doing. But it seemed like I'd do that for a bit and then I get my own leg and sort of go off the deep end thing, return to it. It was never just that consistent. So I just didn't feel like I had that opportunity to do that in brokerage for me. Yeah, I think as a business model where for people do all that, fantastic. Like I'm all for it if that's what gets you going, but it's not what got me going. So that's where I just no matter how I was going, I just couldn't get interested. I was looking for ways just to do the minimum I could each day. So I was like, because obviously, and then the other part was I was looking up my little girl. So we thankfully she slept really well and had like maps during the day. So it'd be like, I'd take her to the park, she'd go to have a sleep bam on the phone, it's all right, do some push-up, do some training as well. Try and stay in check because maybe the phone will bring some asphalt, right? That you'd put yourself through.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

And so like just trying to like yeah, that's right. You never know. One more.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

So just like the yeah, so just the the minimum I could do. I and then even like my it'd be like we'd have team meetings, I'm just doing everything I can to be in the team meetings or oh, learn about this product. Like, I don't care about this financial product, like this does nothing for me, you know. So so I could just tell, I had no, like when I was playing or when I was doing psychology, everything I was learning, I had like a voracious interest in. Like I was really wanting to learn more about to do it. And with this just I was doing everything I could just to, man, I just gotta do this little, I just I'll make 20 calls today. All right, cool, done. Like, please get this done as quickly as possible. Like hoping that when I'm calling, hoping that no one picks up so I can leave a voicemail and act like I made progress, and you know, like all of that, like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Well, it's interesting, the awareness, and uh I know I'm saying it it it's interesting, but it it actually is for me. I'm curious then about that awareness, because as an athlete, you're aware of, like you say, when you're in the zone, you you feel it, you know when the the preseason, the training comes together, and like you say, you're killing it in that game. Here you're in a a position where you're still showing up. And what's interesting, what really is interesting is that you're still showing up and you're doing what is asked, which is how many people go about their life. They'll show up for work, yep, I'm doing it. What do you want me to do? Done, type or whatever, put it away, pack it up. You you were doing that, yet you're aware enough to recognise or to get the sense of this is not you at your best. This is not where you are gonna thrive, where you're gonna kill it and do that. And the fact you're still making 20 calls, people won't make one call, but you're like, oh short, I'll I'll do the minimum number of calls, I'll do whatever that is. Did you get a sense at that time that you were showing up like everybody else? Um, and so you were comparable with everyone else, or did you were you just looking or feeling yourself, nah, this is not where I'm supposed to be?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, it was a disgust. Like, I like and that sounds harsh, but I was like, I never I don't know if I I obviously got very lucky to do what I did in sport in terms of just the opportunities else giving, you know? And to live a life where even like I said, like, oh, I was miserable and things like that, where I I like up my own weight, I would still wake up every day being like, I can't wait to like go train, go do this, or the off-every time it was like it'd be the game days where I'd be the most nervous, like, oh, I'm not good enough. But like the the rest of the stuff was awesome. And obviously, I started to get over the game stuff, and then just as I was sort of hitting my peak, that was when my body started to go on me. But it was I never imagined my life to to to look like that where I'm just doing stuff that I hate doing just because and I got like I just felt like I was poisoning myself every day, and I got immense respect for people that had the the courage. Maybe I'm just weak, like I didn't have the courage to to just just nut through it, but I just I just see that I've been so used to being able to do things that I really like and get paid well to do it, and uh not always too. I like I obviously get paid peanuts when you're young and all that sort of stuff, but I I'm used to being rewarded for for using my strengths, and I don't feel like I'm able to do that now. And I I can't envisage a life, a long-term life of my entire life of of not doing that. You know, I can't see myself in a position where I'm miserable or I'm not liking what I do, but I just do it every day. It's just I just can't see it.

Psychology As Self-Rescue And Edge

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, I can't see it. What you said there is really really good in the you couldn't see a life where you're not being rewarded for using your strengths, you know, certainly over a long-term or sustainable basis. And that that often is a a challenging point for an athlete, because you are rewarded for being fast, tall, shooting, whatever it is, what that sport is, you get rewarded for doing that. So I like the the way you framed it uh in in what you couldn't see for yourself. So before uh so now I'm interested in in how you get out of that, but I want to go back a little bit because this whole notion of psychology, organizational psychology, this this performance piece, taking it all the way back, where did your interest in that come from?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

It was self-induced, it was and that's you asked some really good questions, right? I gotta say, man, like you are like you really like listen and like uh pay attention to things and test like this is really this is awesome. So thank you. Um thank you. Um but like the it actually started from me. I wanted to I knew or I felt, I don't know, it's a view, I don't know objective truth, but I I felt that I was in my own way meant. So the learning about the psychology was a way to help me. If I can understand the mind more and itself, maybe I can use this to apply this to my own performance so I can get better. But I purposely and I I also was like, I don't want to, if I when I go into post-grad and masters, I don't want to be sports psychologist because it's like too much down the sports route. So I'm gonna be in the real world. I better learn how the real world works or what the actual because I'm used to seeing the circus and how how it runs in this. And so I want to know how because I'm gonna be behind, like where when I come out of the school, I'm gonna be behind and not understand the I can draw parallels. In fact, that's what I do, and you will probably do the same thing. But I'm gonna be behind in a lot of just basic knowledge about how the corporate environment, how the regular working environment works. So if I can study it, I'll also understand, you know, not only how it functions here, but how I can apply what I've learned to this to maybe produce a different angle or have a different insight that might be of of use. But initially, all of my psychology study was about me, and even Like when I was so I would have invested around a hundred thousand dollars like of extra services when I was playing. So I was doing like I did hypnotherapy, I did psychotherapy, I did we had a bunch of different sports sites, I had mental skills coaches, I had I but even went down the spiritual healing. Like that was like right as my career was derailed, so like all of these team dynamics, all of these modalities, because I was just like every off-season, I was like, I'm not where I could be. I've got to do something about this. So just always enlisting. So like the good part about that is I just learned a lot and I applied a lot. But it was never it's not that it wasn't the answer.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

What you were searching for though is this I get it, I I can see how that interest came, and it's the psychological, it's the mental side, to give it that, the performance, the mindset bit. And you mentioned before how you felt perhaps you were getting in your own way. Where that's different is for most athletes, you'd go down the physical route. You would say, I'm not doing enough. And given the likelihood of injury that you went through, I'm surprised that you didn't say, so I'll be kept I went down the physio, I went down the sports analysis uh analytics, the strength and conditioning down that route to make you physically stronger. Something shifted where you thought, no, it's that mental side, that team dynamic side, that's where you that's where you went. That's not typical, I think, for the athletes that I speak with.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Well, I just always felt like I like I knew I had physical gifts. Now, even with the injury, like Ryan, I enlisted my own sports uh strength conditioning coach as well. I just didn't I did everything, like, because I was nice. Like I all I had was basketball. And it was weird because it was like I never really questioned who I was or anything before basketball, and then basketball sort of took in, and it was the first place where I felt like I fit in. So then it became like this really because I was 6'7 at 14. So then like you walk in everywhere around, yeah, you're a free, but then you walk into a basketball gym and everyone's happy to see you, you know. It's like it's nothing. So it's like so I I I knew physically I had gifts in terms of what I could do. Now, yes, I worked really hard on my physical body and my skill set, but I always thought that my even though I didn't believe in myself, it's like I I knew how much ability that I had because I'd worked so hard on everything. I didn't see that I didn't think that I had the the mental fortitude or the understanding of myself or the confidence or whatever it was, however you want to term it, to be able to use the capability that I had. So I saw myself as trapped by my own mind from like I felt like I had a tiger like in a cage and I just didn't have the mental key to be able to let this thing out. So that's where I invested like a lot of my time and energy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

But you were looking for the answer. Yeah. It was an investment. It was an investment in in yourself. You were looking, searching for that answer about how to unlock. I'll say unlock your potential. Um, you know, it but to unlock something in you, like you said, that tiger to to go and find it. So have you found it? There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately too. And so I think it's time for it. Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activities, or it might be a retirement of injury, or they need to jump to your careers between sport and a job. As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy innovation, and now life coach to a practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy. So I want to help those around me find their career secondwith. Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

The funny thing was, that I found it in the last like two, three years, like when I'm not playing anymore, you know? So and it was more about um, I was thinking, again, and I think that we're like hardwired to this, like evolutionarily, or that I don't know what it is, but we why it's like two things. One, we imagine there's this like utopia, and then we're just like this sort of one level away from getting to this blissful state where everything's taken care of, and like everything's great, never any challenges, like have everything. The other part that's the second part of that is that we're like wide-share energy conservation. So I think those two work in like tandem where it's like I finally got to this level, now I can just put I can put my ears back, put my feet up, and everything's gonna take care of itself. And I started to see that like that's not that's what that was what I was chasing, but that's not the answer, that wasn't the quite a quite answer. It was really being about like always having the courage in the moment. It's about having the courage in the moment to see past your own BS and be able to just sort of be to you can't kill it off. Like all the all the doubts and the fears and that, I was trying to kill it off. Like, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, like wake up and all of a sudden I think I'm the most amazing person in the world, and all this. Like, it's that's not the point. Like the point is that these things are always gonna be there, right? And that's okay. But we think that like acknowledging it means that we succumb to it, we we submit to it, so we are what we fear, but in the reality of it, it's just like a small part of our vast overall being, and our being is like so vast for us to be uh able to encapsulate. I think that we we think that we can encapsulate ourselves in a few words or things, but I think I don't see see that the case. I see this as being vast, expand I made like he's amazing access to all sorts from the the most evil to the most like to the most divine, right? We have access to all that, it's just a natural part of being human.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

So what I'm hearing is whilst we're looking, like you said, for the answer that goes, done it, made it, sit back, relax, I've got the answer. That in fact, thinking that is zen, having the whole knowledge, having the full knowledge is zen. In fact, that wasn't the case. What is the case? And I I I've heard this from others before, but now I'm piecing it even more together, is it it's accepting or it's allowing that emotion or that feeling to come through. And then it's knowing how to deal with it. It's it's being aware, it's as proactive as we say, as proactive as we might want to be with things, it's reacting to our emotion, but knowing how to react to it. And in a way that then doesn't disrupt you.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, exactly. It's just the acceptance of it without it making it mean it like the be the totality of your being. So that's like it's that's why I said like we're be we're so vast from that, but we think that these that this small part of ourselves that thinks this way is the is the whole part of us. Like, no, it's just a small part of it. So you aim the it's almost like compartmentalizing it. Okay, it's just this bullshit again. Excuse my so it's just this again. This thing only wins, like because a lot of times we try to outthink it or have all this strategy and stuff, and it's sort of besides the point. Like the whole thing, this thing only wins if I engage it. It's like a bully, you know, or a heckler. Yeah, like you know it's like you have someone in so you can't get it. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Don't answer back, just play, just play.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Just play. And all and eventually it drowns out or it moves further back, and so there's no getting rid of it. It's just seeing, and then you start to you see yourself more clearly. Okay, I do have these strengths. Okay, I do have these weaknesses. That's okay. Like the best in everything that they they do have glaring weaknesses, like glaring, but they uh they just hone in on their strengths, uh, they accept the trade-offs that come with it, and if they cop some licks along the way, then they just say it's part of the game and they keep on moving. It's all about that, like just being out a drop, it doesn't mean anything about me.

Identity After Sport And Isolation

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Uh bringing this back to you then, and I'm curious now, you said this really is only only you know a few years for you because retirement was what, five years, six years from where we got 26. So yeah, around for you coming out retirement or the shift. I'm interested then on how you went through that process. So for you, did you as you as you realize the phone isn't ringing, you're in a job. Um how was your identity impacted? How was what emotions were you going through? And as you look back, did you feel you reacted in the right, in the best way possible for you? Or did that take time for you to figure out?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

No, it took me ages. It took me ages. Like, and I'm not gonna sit here and act like I have it all figured out and I'll hit this enlightened stage, mate. Like it's like uh again, I honestly think it was just playing out what like subconsciously I had pictured for myself. Even when I was doing well, I still had this picture that I was a loser. So like I was running away from that this whole time. That's why I was trying to work to something. But then when something like that happens, I honestly think, mate, that I subjected myself to a lot of misery and to a lot of bad circumstances that I didn't really need to. But I did it because I was dedicated to proving this image that I had in myself, and that's how like powerful these images of ourselves are. And if we're running away, even when we're running away from it or we're setting our life up in a way to prove the opposite, we're feeding it, and we just eventually create this thing that I don't want like not even in the manifest, not all that BS, but just not in like the we can't help but like move towards what we're trying to validate about ourselves. So if we recognize it, then you're just like, oh, it's just that again. I don't actually have to play into this. I can go and do this or do what I want to do. I was playing into that, so it's like, oh my gosh, I'm this loser that came back to the hometown and you know, now working some job after playing for a stretch, all this. Like, I was like trying to prove it to myself. And there's only once I like was able to see through it, I'm like, life doesn't have to be this brutal. I'm like making it harder on myself. Like I'm making choices right now that are like keeping us in certain positions, and you feel guilty about that too. And it's just there's just more avenues for like you to feel bad about yourself. Oh my gosh, I'm letting down my family and all this and all that. It's like I know. So you once you get like I had the it was a it was a long process of just seeing past my BS and just being like, you're you're doing this to yourself, and that no one's gonna like come save me. I get lucky, I get lucky with a lot of things. So I'm really good with people, I always seem to create opportunities and things like that. Like that I've had amazing things work out. That only works, that only comes to fruition when I'm out there and being myself and and talking with people and not isolating myself. I was isolating myself like crazy and acting like I was like righteous for doing it, you know? So uh yeah, it took a while, it took a long time. But that's why like I'm actively in the process of be like, man, like I don't have to have this sport or this story validate me. I can just choose just to be who I am, regardless of what's going on. And and if things will work out, they just generally do.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

And so has there been a turning point for you? Or or actually, how have you figured it out? What what have you been doing? Because I guess like me, there's gonna be this same thinking, absolutely good, good man. You went through it, you worked it out. And if I'm someone who's in there right now, how do I get out of it?

Pattern Recognition On Long Walks

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I was always questioning what I was feeling at every stage, right? And I was like, like I said, I was walking through life feeling like poisoned and stuff, and I just couldn't help, because I'd done that like work, all the work that I'd done with all of the the the modalities and the psych degree and the and the and the energetic healing, I had enough awareness to be like, bro, nothing good is gonna come out of this. Like, so it was just like I can't. I got to a stage, what really helped me was that I started, I'll tell you what, here's a specific example, because it's a big questioning. But like how I could start to see patterns, me just like repeating the same patterns. I initially, once I came back to ItSearch, there's a country town that's 20 minutes away that I grew up in for a little bit before coming to ItSearch. So I actually, that's why I have a lot of great childhood memories out there. So I I would, when I was feeling sorry for myself a lot, I would drive out there like early morning and just walk. And I'd walk for like two, three hours. And initially it started as initially it started as me just enjoying the scenery. Because the scenery out there is quite gorgeous, like the countryside, I love it. And then I thought it'd be a good idea to start putting weights in my backpack and using it as like a training thing. So I'd I'd I'd walk for hours on time with weights in my bag and getting beaten down by the sun. And then not only that, after a bit of time, I started talking to myself out loud and I started to try and like solve my problem. So if someone was driving past, they see this like seven-foot guy in this bucket hat and sunmies. Not only was it in the morning, I started picking like the hottest times of the day. So I started going there like in the summer, beating down some, just like punishing myself, like having this, and while I'm talking, I'm basically chastising myself about what I've become, why I'm too much of a coward to go after what I want, why I, you know, how these people had done me wrong, how I did that to myself and all that. And then I just started to be like, I started to see after while I remember driving out there, I pulled the car over. I was like, look, what started off as something that was supposed to be really good for you ended up devolving or divulging into self-punishment. And I started then just I just sat there and just like, not only have you done it here, but you've done it in every aspect of your life. So it just got to a point where it's like I knew all this stuff, but I just didn't want to see it. And then once I had the courage to be like honest myself about it, like you are doing this to yourself. Like you were doing this to yourself. Yes, some things happened that you wouldn't want to happen, but welcome to life, mate. Like everyone else has the same thing. Here you are crying about this. Like, and so once I saw that, I was like, I started making parallels back to when things worked out more. I was like, mate, I was never in this state. Like, I was never in this state of like misery and and self-depression, and then all of a sudden an opportunity came that changed everything. It was always, I'd been in this situation before where I was in self-misery, but I always had to make the change first, and then invariably something would work out for me. So it just it's just pattern recognition, man. Like I hope that people have had enough like evidence of things working out for them and versus like things not, and then being able to see the difference between the two and just being like, see, I'm just repeating the same patterns of when stuff wasn't working out. Because we want to be saved, like we we want like the sympathy, and we want someone to to see us to be feel sorry for us, and here's something that's gonna help me, you know, because it's easy that way. Like we want someone else to show belief in us, and that does happen, but there's no real change without you seeing it first, then just going for it, and then invariably it seems working out and takes time, obviously, but yeah, yes, it does.

Family Support Beyond Basketball

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And wow, thanks for sharing that that story and and and bringing that perspective. And you know, it does it resonates so much when you talk about the pattern recognition and the self-awareness that that one has as an athlete, right? Um, often is physical. You've spoken there about this um the mental health, the mental strength and mindset that comes with it. The key word or phrase for me is that pattern recognition is knowing a look back exercise. And it said, talk to me about when things were good on the court and talk about when things were good off the court. And do they overlap? And where they don't overlap, just look for the pattern. Just talk about well, what was in this gap? What was going on, good or bad? And that's what you you got to. It sounds like it was a a walk at times of misery to really get there, but it it enabled you to look back and find those patterns of, well, when things worked out well, here's what I was doing, and here's what was around me to support you through that. So then for you back in you in you're in a hometown, you're you're somewhere emotionally safe. Was that was then how important was the environment to you in getting through the transition to to where you are today, which is what where I want to step into next?

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Being at home, like made me feel even worse. You know, like I left home when I was 17. And oh when I left, I don't have like bad memories of this place. I was just like, this sounds bad. But it's like I'm too good to come back here. I think I'm gonna be basicallycome multimillionaire. Like I'll be able to live, I'd envisage myself living out in the US. Like I'll just do what I want after this, but I'm not coming back here. So I came back here, you know, and uh and a lot of that was we came back and I didn't know like the the main reason actually we came back was Cash was doing her like my wife Cash was doing her placements out here, and then we stayed with family well, because I was like, I'm gonna get picked up somewhere, so I'm not gonna sign a lease somewhere or or things like that. But uh so we'll stay here with family for a little bit, and you know, once I get picked up, we'll sign out and we'll see you later. So being around family made me feel worse. But the thing about it that was helpful was that when basketball wasn't there, the thing that was good was that they helped me to see they validated that I was Matthew without basketball. But that was like I'd I'd seen myself as basketball being the integral, damn near main part of my identity, even though I thought I was smarter than that, right? And so I started to see that they loved me like because I always felt like such a loser, right? And I could see that they loved me and believed in me more than basketball, like so they just loved me for who I was, and they believed in me just as a person and like the strengths that I had and abilities, but even just like for things like being a dad, I don't like to I think I'm a really good dad. Like I've been really, really fortunate to spend a lot of time with my little girl. We got a little son on the way, and so I'm really thankful for that. And it's something that I just have enjoyed and just got this amazing relationship with my little girl. And so like they love seeing that, you know, love seeing me just be myself in a conversation or sit and have a coffee with. So that was like, and my wife was really big with that because she was like, Matthew, like, or Matt, she's like, basketball isn't you, she's like, is and she met me like when I was playing sort of playing basketball. So I always felt like this is what I'm sort of known for. Without it, who like what am I really? Especially when I'm in a place where I'm not achieving quite quite at the level that I was, you know, at a comparable level. Or I hadn't had my own life, my life figured out, and all this other BS we tell ourselves. She's like, I don't care about musk. She's like, You're better. So man, I was like, I I couldn't see again, I can't see it, you know. I was like, but this is the only thing that I do, and you know, I like and I'm I know that I'm I can be consider you know, some people can might consider me, you know, somewhat intelligent. I think that's just because they don't expect someone seven foot tall or like you know, string a couple of set sentences together. I don't know what I don't know what it is, so I just can't see it. And that's why I was so frustrated in the real world. It's like nothing that I can do, nothing that I used to be able to do, or nothing like matter here. Like no one wants to know me. And it's not true. It was all these stories I'm telling myself. So and that the support was really big in that regard, even though I used it as evidence to fuel that I was a loser. Once I started to see through that, it was like, well, I'm really lucky to have like this, you know, and my a wife who supports me no matter what, and an amazing little daughter, and my mum and dad here, grandparents, and to be able to talk to these people and say, Matthew, like we just want to see you just be you, but we don't care about. But I was so caught up in my own stuff, I wasn't myself with them for a long time, honestly, you know, dissed it, or always complaining about something, or didn't feel like I deserved to like be confident about anything because look at how my life has turned out, you know. So again, very, very thankful that I have the support that I had, right?

Finding Fit Through Advisory Work

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah, quite right as well. And like you say, sometimes we can't see it. We can't see the label when we are in the jar of sorts. So, you know, we don't know it. It takes them to tell us. So, today, how do you apply yourself today? You know, you're speaking about in the role being in commercial brokerage and the that sales you didn't feel you were in a position to apply your strengths to what you're doing. How are you finding that outlet today?

SPEAKER_01 41:52

I talk to people. That's what I do. And so I've been fortunate, obviously, to have some work in in advisory that I've done that's way more suited to me. And but with the Berkeley, I took it because I felt like it was gonna sort of lead me to this, and sure enough, inevitably it did. So did it do that? This is an interesting one is that it was sort of mixed. My SNC coach with playing basketball said, Hey, I've got this kid who really likes basketball, he but he wants to not only do because he knew I did psychology and things like that, and he'd always wanted me to sort of do some stuff with his athletes. He's like, This kid needs help with basketball, but he his dad really wants some mentorship. His dad like runs an advisory firm for like construction project management advice. I was like, okay, cool. He's like, it might be worth talking to this guy. I know you're not liking brokering. He's like, I was like, okay, yeah, fine. So I said, I negotiated with the dad. I said, look, I'll, you know, if we do an on-court training, you know, I'll do here for this for cash. I said, but anything that we do, mentorship-wise, where I'm talking to your son, Raf at Easy's name, talking to Raf's now, uh, you know, giving him some documents that I made or things like that. I said, I won't take payment, but if you could maybe introduce me to people who you know that would need like commercial finance, like for asset, you know, asset finance or whatever it is, that'd be fantastic. Yeah, sure. So anyway, we got talking through that. So that was the initial proposition was like, all right, well, it started with brokering. Here's another contact. This is like a different avenues for quote unquote monthly or referrals that that might be advantageous to me. And then we got talking, and he loves the stuff that I'm doing with his with his son and the documents and how much I've thought about certain things. And and he's like, he's like, is this is brokery what you really want to do? I was like, no. I said, what I really want to do is and I explained it is what ended up being advised. I didn't even have a term for it. And I was like, I just really want to I see like the corporate world as being like really slow and lacking urgency, and like I can see so much that they could do gun, and I I love the teen aspect, like like through that, I was you get to see how people operate under pressure, and you get to see beneath the mask, and all of that sort of stuff that you learn in sport, and then it had language for it from psychology and an understanding of it. I was like, I wonder if it apply that to the real. Well, like, yeah, I could do it in sport, but I I really want to like work with this because I really want to see it pained me so much to not get the things that I wanted, what I thought I didn't want, like the results that I wanted, even though I worked so hard. So it pains me to see that with others. And so I want to do whatever I can to help people to get the stuff that they want. So that was what the advisory was. Well, listen, mate, like there's a few things that you know, and so he started to open my mind to getting into advisory and that. So that's how it sort of emerged into it. Yeah. So got the uh what the essence is the question, but that's how the both and sorry, and I turned into the advisory.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Well I was yeah, but I'm interested in the journey you took. So that that the ability to get I'm not just say out of the brokerage, but using the brokerage, using those connections, using your sport in this instance to try and get you to a place where you're doing more work where you can see the uniqueness or the value that you can bring. And that's really what you've just been able to describe a bit there.

unknown 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yes. That was it. And then that led on to me seeing, oh, there's actually like what I was envisaging isn't something that was made up or something that I need to, because I I thought I could sort of move into that like an individual degree. And then this is when things started to open up. Because once I started to see that, because I'm really good at talking to people and I'm tall, and people like talking to me because they'd like, oh my gosh, you're tall, mate. But you you split us. I was like, ah, something enough, yes. And so anyway, like I started getting introduced to people. So he was like, he sort of opened my mind to it. It's like, look, this is what I do with certain companies, and and a lot of it is based on their team dynamics, or they have a leader that's struggling with this, or or whatever it is. He's like, I'd love for you to come in with me and like be a part of just sitting in the room and giving you absolutely so all so I was like, wow, like I was like, and I can make money doing this. He's like, Oh yeah. I was like, so this is actually what people pay for someone to come do this.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

I just love this. It is it's the bit I see so often is it's an unknown unknown. We yeah, just don't realize that. Hold on, people do that, and that's value add. And I do this, and I'm good at this. Hold on. Why didn't someone tell me this years ago? Like you're saying, you you don't know until you're out, until you're looking and you're open to those opportunities to could to to to come around to you.

Networking, Writing, And Being Yourself

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah, that's it. Exactly it. Like you just I just blew my mind, like, wow, that this is and then that's it. And then I'd be in a plane, and I'd the guy sat next to me, we'd be talking. Uh, it turns out he's a global leader at KPMG, so then he's like introducing me to this person, this person, and then a guy he used to open up the gin for me when I was playing sport, and I said, Thank you. I got a relationship with that torturing, got him a uh a gift, I found out he liked coffee, so I got him like a hundred dollar gift card to Zarafas. Turns out years later, he says like CEO of Woodap Holly Queensland. So I went and talked to him. I was like, oh, maybe there's some stuff we can do. Yeah, sure. And by the way, here's my book about marketing for being an OD consultant. It's like you and OD. And so he started talking to me. Turned out he had he was a founder of Executive Wisdom that, you know, like, and he had all this, uh he built this amazing um consultancy firm by himself. Now he's a personal mentor of mine, and he's put money in my pocket doing stuff with with water polo and things like that. And then um, and then a guy who's my financial advisor ends up like girl working to a private equity firm that does like capital readiness reports. So he's like, Oh, we'd love for you to do like some organizational development side of our of our overall capital readiness. And so just these opportunities that come up, but what we're talking about is being open to them and being able to put yourself out there. So a lot of that is just I just talk to people a lot, and then I write I like to write stuff when I'm LinkedIn and just like a lot of insights. And I went away from initially I was getting AI to not write it but edit it, and I was like, nah, and like I'm just not feeling this. Like I can't I can't be myself in this. Like it, yes, it comes up with some really nice Polish stuff. So I started just writing more just myself, like off the cuff. Something pops into my head, or I'm reading something, typing it out as a fact, and then recording, same thing. Like a lot of times I get like real emotional weirdly when I'm physically training. So like I do boxing, like I do calisthenics, I do these things, and I do a lot of sprinting, jumping, like I just love still being an athlete, and I'll get like emotional, like I'll spit on the ground, I'll get like real mad about some sort of inefficiency or or something like that, and then I'll I'll I'll just come back inside, I'll pretty up a little bit, and I'll put the camera on and just record and then cut that up. So just a lot of like when I was in basketball and when I got my own way a lot, and in life afterwards, I was either waiting for permission, like I was waiting to be told this is the right thing to do, or I was doing what I thought I should do rather than what I wanted to do. So that period during this time, even though it was really painful, I really for the first time got a sense of who I am, what I really like, what I really want to do. And then I just choose to be like, there's there's so many people getting paid to do the things that they really love to do and they're really good at, and they get paid really well for it. Yeah, it's a struggle, yeah, this and that. Yeah, there's these challenges that come with it, but I'm used to that. Like I'm used to that sort of stuff. So that's where that's where I that's where I focus now. It's just like whatever expression that I can do, where and I'll reach out to the Chamber of Commerce, be like for me a switch and be like I'm born and raised here. Why don't I just do a talk? The door's for free, but let me just talk to the people and let me just network with them afterwards and chatting. So just these things where I'm not city necessarily sitting behind my computer trying to come up with the most amazing marketing strategy or something, but the more that I can get and talk with people, yeah, it's something it flows and it and it and it's natural.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

And look, Matthew, it it's really good to hear that. It's really good to hear the thought process and for you to bring the actual examples of what you've done to get you to where you are today. Um it's been it's it's been enlightening because of the honesty, but also you know, this being the first time we're really talking for me to understand that practicality that you've taken to move from where you were to where you are today. I love the fact, I love the unknown unknown piece. And by I guess by being true to yourself and speaking to someone who operated in a field that you didn't know, you realised that there was another place where you could bring your strengths and be rewarded for being you. Yeah. And that's great. And I and I and I think if anything, taking from your story, even at this point, and we'll keep talking off camera, but it it's it's just really good to hear that. And I think it's gonna be helpful to many people. And and already through my mind, I'm I'm already thinking of people I'm working with who I'm like, you're gonna have to listen to this episode because this is gonna be a good one, because he'll talk about how he felt and how he worked through things without actually knowing the answer. And I just yeah, I want to say thanks for coming on and and sharing your story. It's been it's been enlightened, enlightening.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Right, right, honestly, thank you. Like, and this like does a lot for me personally, just in almost anti cathartic. So to be able to to be able to come on and talk to you. And I I like I said before, man, I really just appreciate uh for one, having me on, but two, just like how intently you listen and like how interested you are. Like this is our first conversation, and you're really yeah, it just means a lot, man. And I think it's an amazing skill from our first time meeting each other that you have, and I was like, okay, I can see why he's he's good at what he does, you know.

Where To Find Matthew And Closing

SPEAKER_00 51:30

So listen, thank you. Thanks very much. Now, actually, people are gonna want to get in touch with you or follow your story, find me on LinkedIn or Insta. Where's the best place to find you and what should they search for?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Yeah, LinkedIn's probably the best place to find. I I ejected myself from um social media uh uh during my uh ejection from basketball. So I ran them hid, so I got rid of all my stuff. Um so I rebuilt myself, I guess, quite an o on LinkedIn. Um so is that LinkedIn, feel free to message me on that for whatever. If you want to email, it's Matthew, M-A-W-T-H-E-W at people performance advisors.com.au. So chose that because those are my two sort of areas of knowledge people and performance. So that's what I advise on. And then uh I've got a website as well, so uh www.people performanceadvisors.com.au. But I'm gonna say though that I I initially got it set up with a friend and he used a bunch of AI and stuff, so it's a bit bland. So I'm in the process of like redoing it where I use my actual language, so maybe check back in in a couple of weeks when that's when that's done. And it'll be more of a reflection of me rather than what what the algorithm you know thinks that I should write it, should write. So yeah.

Second Wind Academy Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Alright, well, listen, um, once again, thanks again for being on the show. I've really enjoyed the chat and super useful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast. We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers. If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me. I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together. That's all from me. Take it easy until next time.